Transcript Of FOF2K4 Q&A With Jim Gindin (10/22) - Page 2

Solecismic · 10-23-2003, 02:12 PM

Chemistry is still intact. It's just that astrological signs received a fairly negative response from people, so I felt their mention was distracting people from the game.

Should I get help for these sims? Well, that means enormous risk. And it's difficult to find the right kind of help. If you have a couple of other people sharing the proceeds, you might end up banking everything on one release. I could obviously use an artist - the one who does the splash screen is a freelancer with excellent credentials who really seems to enjoy the work. She's a wonderful person and a top-notch artist who does a lot of work for Microsoft, but I could never afford her rates on a full-time basis. I could also use a marketing director to free up my time and create new opportunities. But all that adds risk, and with my current situation (new baby, wife taking care of him full time), that's just not an option right now.

I wanted to clear up one misconception that seems prevalent on the .400 board. A handful of people, including my favorite ex-customer - the only one ever banned from buying Solecismic products - seem to believe I don't care about my customers and I don't listen to input.

I know I don't do a great job about responding about new ideas on the forum. I don't have time to respond to every item, or even close to it. Part of that goes back to the discussion above - I don't want to add risk by adding employees like a community manager who can speak for the company.

But I do listen. I would never be doing multi-player if I didn't listen. In fact, all the new features in FOF 2004 are ones that people requested and discussed in various stages. Sure, I have a vision for the game. Doesn't every developer? How could you start something like this without a vision? I also have a design, which includes mostly data structure formats and a display style.

But new ideas for the game come from the people who play the game. My job is to fit them into the vision and the display style and make decisions about what I can do in the development time I have available. This rigidity and not caring accusation is utter nonsense, made up by a handful of people who have an axe to grind.

spleen1015 · 10-23-2003, 02:17 PM

I would like to know where you saw Farrah say that you don't care about your customers and don't listen to input.

Ben E Lou · 10-23-2003, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spleen1015
I would like to know where you saw Farrah say that you don't care about your customers and don't listen to input.

QUOTE (Chappy @ Oct 23 2003, 05:49 PM)
...He has always been up front about his desire to do the game the way he wants to, with little or no input from the consumers. It's his right to do it that way...

response from Farrah: Well said Chappy! I completely agree.

I must say that is pretty close.

Solecismic · 10-23-2003, 02:23 PM

... All kidding aside, TPF will hopefully end up being a game designed by fans and executed by a developer, while FOF will always be Jim's game the way he wants it.

Farrah: Well said Chappy! I completely agree.

You're right, she didn't say both. Editing.

pjstp20 · 10-23-2003, 02:26 PM

The inevitable war has begun

spleen1015 · 10-23-2003, 02:26 PM

Well, how about we include the entire post so we can all see how well what she was saying was taken out of context.

QUOTE (Chappy @ Oct 23 2003, 05:49 PM)
I don't think it's fair to say that Jim at FOF is not passionate about the game or that the game is a joke.

He has always been up front about his desire to do the game the way he wants to, with little or no input from the consumers. It's his right to do it that way. But by the amount of research that Jim put forth before developing his football sims, I'd say he's very passionate obout the game.

That said, I think it shows how truly wonderful it is that developers at .400 value input from us. Sure, we all whine and complain and give Arlie many a headache, but we also make him step back and say "Good Idea, Chappy" or "Man, that Chappy sure does have a lot to offer. I think I'll give him a free copy of the game in exchange for some of his endless knowledge". All kidding aside, TPF will hopefully end up being a game designed by fans and executed by a developer, while FOF will always be Jim's game the way he wants it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well said Chappy! I completely agree.

Just one correction - Arlie is a fan first, developer second. He's one of those lucky people who turns their passion into a career.

Ben E Lou · 10-23-2003, 02:28 PM

spleen:

I "completely" agree means she agrees with every statement in the post, and several of the statements in that post slam Jim pretty hard, any way you look at 'em.

Ben E Lou · 10-23-2003, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pjstp20
The inevitable war has begun

I don't see any war here. I doubt Farrah truly MEANT that. She's trying to play both sides of the fence, which is impossibe in this case.

Deattribution · 10-23-2003, 02:33 PM

This is all so stupid.

The whole thread should of been removed to begin with, because all it is is a flamefest in there favor.

He could of complimented TPF without insulting FOF, which would of been fine, nothing wrong with praising a game you think your gonna enjoy, but he didn't, and then everyone joined in.

Solecismic · 10-23-2003, 02:34 PM

I don't think there's a war here. Just a lot of enthusiasm for .400, and unfortunately, a few people (NOT including Farrah) who can't see that the success of one developer helps the entire genre.

Ben E Lou · 10-23-2003, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Deattribution
The whole thread should of been removed to begin with, because all it is is a flamefest in there favor.

Yup.

spleen1015 · 10-23-2003, 02:36 PM

Okay, you are right in the fact that she said she completely agreed after quoting his entire thread.

I truly doubt she meant to agree with the Jim bashing.

Ugh. Maybe I will just stay out of it from now on.

ScottVib · 10-23-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
I don't see any war here. I doubt Farrah truly MEANT that. She's trying to play both sides of the fence, which is impossibe in this case.

I know for a fact she didn't mean it like that, when she saw Jim's post she was just as surprised as anyone here that it was taken that way.

I don't think agreeing with that statement is equal to stating that Jim doesn't care about his customers and doesn't listen to their input. Farrah told me she meant it as agreeing Jim is passionate about the game, and was shocked that it could be taken as a slam.

The last thing we want is any sort of forum war. Comparison is probably inevitable, but there is no reason or need for any sort of war. In the end both Jim and .400 want the same thing you all want, the best football sim possible on the market. Ultimately the fans will benefit, as they will have two top flight games to enjoy.

John Galt · 10-23-2003, 02:54 PM

I went and read the other thread and found something the epitomizes the difference between the two boards. Spleen1015 had this nugget to offer:

"Why is the feature set of FOF being talked about on the official TPF website in the first place?

IF you want to bitch about FOF, then go to an FOF board to do it."

I found it truly astounding that someone would argue that FOF should not be discussed at TPF. If someone said something similar on this board, they would be laughed at (and probably Fritzed as well). Weird. I heart FOFC.

Arles · 10-23-2003, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Solecismic
I don't think there's a war here. Just a lot of enthusiasm for .400, and unfortunately, a few people (NOT including Farrah) who can't see that the success of one developer helps the entire genre.

This is a point few seem to realize. Baseball has had three choices for sports sims for a while (OOTP, BB Mogul, PureSim). All have had a certain amount of success and each has helped improve the genre over time. I think there is more than enough room for both FOF and TPF to succeed. And, quite honestly, I hope that happens.

Now, the last thing I want to do is come out and appear to be in favor of "closing threads"

. But, I think we (both the .400 and FOF community) need to make a concerted effort to refrain from the pot shots ("is .400 dead"/ "FOF4/TPF is going to stink") and instead put that effort into getting both Jim and .400 feedback on the games and features. I think, in the long run, that will help everyone's gaming enjoyment.

And, in the end, isn't that why we are all here?

Arlie

Bee · 10-23-2003, 02:57 PM

Should we all hold hands now and sing kumbaya?

spleen1015 · 10-23-2003, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by John Galt
I went and read the other thread and found something the epitomizes the difference between the two boards. Spleen1015 had this nugget to offer:

"Why is the feature set of FOF being talked about on the official TPF website in the first place?

IF you want to bitch about FOF, then go to an FOF board to do it."

I found it truly astounding that someone would argue that FOF should not be discussed at TPF. If someone said something similar on this board, they would be laughed at (and probably Fritzed as well). Weird. I heart FOFC.

How many threads are there on the Official FOF forum bashing TPF?

I'm not arguing about talking about the game. That kind of things happens all of the time. I'm talking about bashing the game and it's maker like wig was doing in that thread.

The funny thing is this whole sh!t storm was caused by a guy who has been banned over here and he's still make waves here.

Bee · 10-23-2003, 03:00 PM

There's an official FOF forum?

Deattribution · 10-23-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arles
This is a point few seem to realize. Baseball has had three choices for sports sims for a while (OOTP, BB Mogul, PureSim). All have had a certain amount of success and each has helped improve the genre over time. I think there is more than enough room for both FOF and TPF to succeed. And, quite honestly, I hope that happens.

Now, the last thing I want to do is come out and appear to be in favor of "closing threads" . But, I think we (both the .400 and FOF community) need to make a concerted effort to refrain from the pot shots ("is .400 dead"/ "FOF4/TPF is going to stink") and instead put that effort into getting both Jim and .400 feedback on the games and features. I think, in the long run, that will help everyone's gaming enjoyment.

And, in the end, isn't that why we are all here?

Arlie

I agree to an extent, but there hasn't been that many issues here concerning popshots being taken. It's usually constructive critism, I can't think of any threads that talked about how glad they were they are gonna buy FOF since TPF is gonna suck so bad, or vice versa.

And if any of them do arise, certainly isn't anyone from Solecismic or the board moderators in the thread encouraging it by saying good job and great stuff.

FrogMan · 10-23-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
There's an official FOF forum?

If you find it, let me know...

Deattribution · 10-23-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
There's an official FOF forum?

I know you're saying there isn't, but does anyone really need to ask why now ?

You think anyone would wanna tie all this mess together as assosiated with there company and product?

Jim is much better off having this as an unofficial forum opposed to one he has to keep an eye on. An with the crazy amount of backlash all of a sudden, it's no wonder he stopped posting before too.

John Galt · 10-23-2003, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spleen1015
How many threads are there on the Official FOF forum bashing TPF?

I'm not arguing about talking about the game. That kind of things happens all of the time. I'm talking about bashing the game and it's maker like wig was doing in that thread.

The funny thing is this whole sh!t storm was caused by a guy who has been banned over here and he's still make waves here.

Huh? As has been pointed out - there is no official FOF forum. Also, my point is ALL games are fair ground on this board and football games of all types (Madden, ESPN, Tecmo, FPS, TPF, FOF, etc.) have been discussed at length on this board. Hell, even the infamous WigFL was discussed (created by your friend Wignasty). My point is that this board abandoned the OT: label a while ago while .400 (as an official board) is very limited in its subject matter. Thus, I heart FOFC.

Bee · 10-23-2003, 03:10 PM

spleen,

just count yourself lucky there hasn't been a comparison of the beta diaries for the two games...you're up against the King around these parts...

HornedFrog Purple · 10-23-2003, 03:15 PM

Quote:

My point is that this board abandoned the OT: label a while ago ...

What a disgraceful apparition of the truth!

-Holding the flame of the OT: Renaissance.

Ksyrup · 10-23-2003, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arles
But, I think we (both the .400 and FOF community) need to make a concerted effort to refrain from the pot shots ("is .400 dead"/ "FOF4/TPF is going to stink") and instead put that effort into getting both Jim and .400 feedback on the games and features. I think, in the long run, that will help everyone's gaming enjoyment.

I disagree, to an extent. I think the vast majority of readers, and certainly the developers to whom the comments are directed, can reasonably ferret out the constructive criticisms from the tripe, so you are getting feedback, even if you have to wade through the insults. And in fact, when someone posts a "TPF/FOF Sux" type thread on this board, the rest of us put that fire out rather quickly, and more often than not, a decent discussion is then had about the points (if any) inarticulately brought up by the troll. So I'd rather take the bad to get the good, rather than have everyone feel like they are on pins and needles if they don't couch their feedback in niceties, as opposed to giving the "straight poop" about a particular game's shortcomings.

And to the extent this forum really has no true affiliation, I think all developers benefit from our discussions far more than those on any company's "developer's forum." But I may be biased in that opinion.

Godzilla Blitz · 10-23-2003, 03:24 PM

After reading through the Q & A, I'm encouraged by the new version, even though I don't think I'll be playing multiplayer. Although people are free to evaluate the new version based on the number of new features, I think the best way to improve FOF is to improve features that are already in the game, and especially by improving the AI that governs existing features.

I've found FOF4, with the latest patch, to be the most challenging version to date. However, Jim's comment that he has worked hard on free agency seems to me--after considerable time with FOF4--to be a needed move to increase the challenge in the game. The draft AI took a big jump in quality with the latest FOF4 patch, and if free agency has gotten the same kind of overhaul and if the AI roster management has had some tweaking, I think we may see one of the more robust text-sim AIs on the market. The AI will have made huge strides as compared to FOF2001.

I'm also excited about the addition of career records, and glad to see that multiplayer has been added. I'm glad that chemisty will still be included, and am interested to see how it will be set up in this version. Although the astrological signs were a bit artificial, I liked their impact on the game.

Lastly, I am excited that someone as good as Quiksand is involved in beta testing, and am sure that the game will be better because of it. I think this may be the best version of FOF4 yet.

On a slightly different tack, I am also excited that SkyDog is involved with TPF, and am encouraged to read some of his comments about the game. I get a sense that they are doing things the right way, and I'm looking forward to their release as well. There is definitely room for two good football sims.

Arles · 10-23-2003, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
I disagree, to an extent. I think the vast majority of readers, and certainly the developers to whom the comments are directed, can reasonably ferret out the constructive criticisms from the tripe, so you are getting feedback, even if you have to wade through the insults. And in fact, when someone posts a "TPF/FOF Sux" type thread on this board, the rest of us put that fire out rather quickly, and more often than not, a decent discussion is then had about the points (if any) inarticulately brought up by the troll. So I'd rather take the bad to get the good, rather than have everyone feel like they are on pins and needles if they don't couch their feedback in niceties, as opposed to giving the "straight poop" about a particular game's shortcomings.

And to the extent this forum really has no true affiliation, I think all developers benefit from our discussions far more than those on any company's "developer's forum." But I may be biased in that opinion.

I was referring to the comments more than the thread label. And, I agree that this board has done a nice job at that. Just look at the "is .400 done" poll that was here a few days ago. That eventually morphed into a decent discussion.

I certainly understand that some venting and vague criticism will occur and have no problem with that. My point is that we should try and put more effort into getting as much feedback to the developers as possible.

Bee · 10-23-2003, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz
I think this may be the best version of FOF4 yet.

spleen1015 · 10-23-2003, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
spleen,

just count yourself lucky there hasn't been a comparison of the beta diaries for the two games...you're up against the King around these parts...

You guys can compare them all you want. Why am I lucky you're not? Because QS does a better job than I do? So be it. I am doing my best.

Ksyrup · 10-23-2003, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz
After reading through the Q & A, I'm encouraged by the new version, even though I don't think I'll be playing multiplayer. Although people are free to evaluate the new version based on the number of new features, I think the best way to improve FOF is to improve features that are already in the game, and especially by improving the AI that governs existing features.

I've found FOF4, with the latest patch, to be the most challenging version to date. However, Jim's comment that he has worked hard on free agency seems to me--after considerable time with FOF4--to be a needed move to increase the challenge in the game. The draft AI took a big jump in quality with the latest FOF4 patch, and if free agency has gotten the same kind of overhaul and if the AI roster management has had some tweaking, I think we may see one of the more robust text-sim AIs on the market. The AI will have made huge strides as compared to FOF2001.

I'm also excited about the addition of career records, and glad to see that multiplayer has been added. I'm glad that chemisty will still be included, and am interested to see how it will be set up in this version. Although the astrological signs were a bit artificial, I liked their impact on the game.

These are important points. It seems apparent to me that Solecismic being a one-man shop, we can't expect a complete overhaul of the game every year, to include a litany of improvements and new features. Jim is limited to the addition of a few new features, and to strengthen what is already there. That's what FOF2K4 will represent. I don't have a problem with that and will gladly fund his continued development of the game.

However, if I ever feel as if the FOF series (or any game, for that matter) is not developing, for whatever reason, than I might choose not to support it. That's basically what happened, IMO, with Baseball Mogul. Three versions down the road, I didn't see enough improvement to warrant my further purchase of the game.

Look at OOTP - for its 6th version, it is undergoing a complete recoding of the basics involved in rating players. I think Jim has got that fairly knocked out, and can work on other issues as the game progresses. Personally, I'd much rather have seen Marcus tackle the ratings issues for OOTP3 or 4, than add some of the extras that everyone loves and leaving the ratings issues until now, but that's just me. And I didn't knock Marcus or the game for making those choices, although I was happy to point out the shortcomings of having batters rated for hitting triples, for instance. Similarly, Jim's efforts shouldn't be knocked simply because he's chosen to put the "under the hood" elements of the game ahead of the extras. I tend to believe that they will come, in time., And if not, then there will be other games out there to spend our money on. That's how it should work, don't you think?

Bee · 10-23-2003, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spleen1015
You guys can compare them all you want. Why am I lucky you're not? Because QS does a better job than I do? So be it. I am doing my best.

I was joking spleen (that's why I used two smilie thingies)...there's a sort of running joke here that Quik is a computer and no one wants to go up against him in anything basically.

GrantDawg · 10-23-2003, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee
I was joking spleen (that's why I used two smilie thingies)...there's a sort of running joke here that Quik is a computer and no one wants to go up against him in anything basically.

It's a joke!!

ice4277 · 10-23-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GrantDawg
It's a joke!!

Thats what 'they' would like you to believe...

Godzilla Blitz · 10-23-2003, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bee

Bee: Whoops. Nice catch. I really didn't mean to add the "4" to "best version of FOF4 yet", but it did turn out kind of funny, given the current conversation. I do think, however, that FOF2004 will easily have enough improvements for me to buy it and be happy with my purchase.

Ksyrup: As much as it pains me to say so, I would have to agree with you about Baseball Mogul. I really like the 2001 version game I have, but really haven't felt the need to get any of the newer versions yet.

Ben E Lou · 10-23-2003, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz
Ksyrup: As much as it pains me to say so, I would have to agree with you about Baseball Mogul. I really like the 2001 version game I have, but really haven't felt the need to get any of the newer versions yet.

Same here. It pains me to have to say it, but Mogul just stopped progressing. Even as inexpensive as it is, I didn't buy Mogul 2K4.

Easy Mac · 10-23-2003, 03:59 PM

can I ask why wgnasty's thread @ .400 is stickied? Its a flame fest on Jim and its stickied? I don't know if one thing has actually been mentioned about a .400 game, but the whole thread says FOF sucks.

If this is a company board, I find that kind of classless.

Solecismic · 10-23-2003, 04:08 PM

I wish Arlie and .400 the best with TPF. He's been around here for years, and there's no question about his contributions to the sports sim community.

I also want to thank Quik again for all his work with the diary. He's even juggling beta versions (which is a giant pain, given that they share registry keys) so that he can keep the career alive that he's using for the diary. It means a lot to me that he's willing to tell people he's testing the game and put the extra time into writing about it.

I like this forum. I especially like what SkyDog has done with it. And I think it works better without an official affiliation. I don't feel pressure to control discussion that way, or worry about sexual innuendo in items. It works so well that I don't feel the need to have my own forum. The negative is that my release won't necessarily have the full attention of the board, but the positives heavily outweigh the negatives, as people who are just sports sim fans in general feel comfortable here. I know I can ask a question here and get a straight answer.

Maple Leafs · 10-23-2003, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easy Mac
If this is a company board, I find that kind of classless.

I finally found the thread and read through it. You're right. I can't see why they'd bother to sticky that.

I'm not very familiar with the TPF/.400 folks, but as a potential customer I can't say I'm very impressed by that move. I'm going to assume it was a one-time lapse in judgement.

GrantDawg · 10-23-2003, 04:26 PM

nevermind. They corrected it.

The_herd · 10-23-2003, 04:29 PM

I've bought every game Jim and Arlie have made so far. I enjoy contributing in some way to the games both of you make. And although I'm somewhat disappointed that a couple of features will not be included in FOF2004, I'm incredibly excited about the Multi-Player potential for the FOF series. I will hopefully be a first day buyer for FOF2004, but for that to happen Jim needs to promise to wait until I'm finished moving to San Antonio.

With that being said, I will forever be cautious on purchasing .400 studio's products after the TDCB disaster. I don't know Arlie as a person, but I do know that he is a dedicated developer. However, I can't help but begin to question how things are run over there when they sticky and participate in flamefests against the competition on their forums.

I wish both Jim and Arlie the best of luck with their games and hope that both sell beyond expectations.

Senator · 10-23-2003, 04:54 PM

Many disjointed thoughts, stay with me.

Are we being invaded and no one told me?

October 2003 newbies sure have alot of stout comments on FOF. I better go make sure somebody hasn't slit my tires.

And as an aside. Purchasing these games are not mutually exclusive. You can have both, and I bet most here will.

Territorial warfare has always interested me. You would think the Battle of Little Bighorn was about to be revisited.

sabotai · 10-23-2003, 05:08 PM

Wow...I just read that thread. Did I really use to stick up for this guy?

*shivers* I feel so dirty now...

nilodor · 10-23-2003, 05:25 PM

My big question is: if TCY needs to be updated for the draft files to work with FOF 2k4, what is going to happen to the historical project? Is there going to be a converter to convert the files from FOF4 to FOF 2k4? If not will it be possible for a 3rd party to make a converter *cough* 3ric? Are there new data fields that would have to be added to the files?

Ben E Lou · 10-23-2003, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ScottVib
Can I ask what you are talking about. Wignasty's thread isn't stickied and unless it was stickied briefly while I was traveling from work to home, hasn't been stickied at all.

Scott:

It was stickied for a good bit of time (at least a half hour). It got un-stickied shortly after the posts in this thread criticizing the sticky. It made it look like someone stickied it, then un-stickied it when the criticism came. Thought you should know.

--Ben

ScottVib · 10-23-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Scott:

It was stickied for a good bit of time. It got un-stickied shortly after the posts in this thread criticizing the sticky. Thought you should know.

--Ben

Ben thanks for letting me know.

Solecismic · 10-23-2003, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nilodor
My big question is: if TCY needs to be updated for the draft files to work with FOF 2k4, what is going to happen to the historical project? Is there going to be a converter to convert the files from FOF4 to FOF 2k4? If not will it be possible for a 3rd party to make a converter *cough* 3ric? Are there new data fields that would have to be added to the files?

Given the amount of work that has clearly gone into the draft project, I'm going to do what I can to help out there.

If those draft files originally came from spreadsheets, the good news is that it won't be hard to convert those spreadsheets into ones compatible with the draft file generator.

If not, I'll try to find some time to write a converter in the days following the release.

maximus · 10-23-2003, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by spleen1015
You guys can compare them all you want. Why am I lucky you're not? Because QS does a better job than I do? So be it. I am doing my best.

I think you are doing a good job spleen. Keep it up.

Dutch · 10-23-2003, 05:53 PM

Jeez Jim, it's a good thing your married or you might have Senator and his goons chasing after you like a pack of dogs in heat.

That's pretty thoughtful that you are willing to help out with those files.

Senator · 10-23-2003, 06:04 PM

Gotta have the history!!!!

Thanks Jim. Rest assured we will not chase you as dogs in heat.

Squids in heat, perhaps.

Deattribution · 10-23-2003, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Senator

October 2003 newbies sure have alot of stout comments on FOF. I better go make sure somebody hasn't slit my tires.

I assume you're referring to me... atleast my comments got referred to as stout

10-23-2003, 02:17 PM	#52
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	I would like to know where you saw Farrah say that you don't care about your customers and don't listen to input. __________________ Why choose failure when success is an option?

10-23-2003, 02:26 PM	#56
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	Well, how about we include the entire post so we can all see how well what she was saying was taken out of context. QUOTE (Chappy @ Oct 23 2003, 05:49 PM) I don't think it's fair to say that Jim at FOF is not passionate about the game or that the game is a joke. He has always been up front about his desire to do the game the way he wants to, with little or no input from the consumers. It's his right to do it that way. But by the amount of research that Jim put forth before developing his football sims, I'd say he's very passionate obout the game. That said, I think it shows how truly wonderful it is that developers at .400 value input from us. Sure, we all whine and complain and give Arlie many a headache, but we also make him step back and say "Good Idea, Chappy" or "Man, that Chappy sure does have a lot to offer. I think I'll give him a free copy of the game in exchange for some of his endless knowledge". All kidding aside, TPF will hopefully end up being a game designed by fans and executed by a developer, while FOF will always be Jim's game the way he wants it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said Chappy! I completely agree. Just one correction - Arlie is a fan first, developer second. He's one of those lucky people who turns their passion into a career. __________________ Why choose failure when success is an option?

10-23-2003, 02:28 PM	#57
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	spleen: I "completely" agree means she agrees with every statement in the post, and several of the statements in that post slam Jim pretty hard, any way you look at 'em. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

10-23-2003, 02:36 PM	#62
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	Okay, you are right in the fact that she said she completely agreed after quoting his entire thread. I truly doubt she meant to agree with the Jim bashing. Ugh. Maybe I will just stay out of it from now on. __________________ Why choose failure when success is an option?

10-23-2003, 02:54 PM	#64
John Galt Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Internets	I went and read the other thread and found something the epitomizes the difference between the two boards. Spleen1015 had this nugget to offer: "Why is the feature set of FOF being talked about on the official TPF website in the first place? IF you want to bitch about FOF, then go to an FOF board to do it." I found it truly astounding that someone would argue that FOF should not be discussed at TPF. If someone said something similar on this board, they would be laughed at (and probably Fritzed as well). Weird. I heart FOFC. __________________ I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man. - The Dude

10-23-2003, 02:23 PM	#54
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	... All kidding aside, TPF will hopefully end up being a game designed by fans and executed by a developer, while FOF will always be Jim's game the way he wants it. Farrah: Well said Chappy! I completely agree. You're right, she didn't say both. Editing.

10-23-2003, 02:26 PM	#55
pjstp20 High School Varsity Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL	The inevitable war has begun

10-23-2003, 02:33 PM	#59
Deattribution College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2003	This is all so stupid. The whole thread should of been removed to begin with, because all it is is a flamefest in there favor. He could of complimented TPF without insulting FOF, which would of been fine, nothing wrong with praising a game you think your gonna enjoy, but he didn't, and then everyone joined in.

10-23-2003, 02:34 PM	#60
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	I don't think there's a war here. Just a lot of enthusiasm for .400, and unfortunately, a few people (NOT including Farrah) who can't see that the success of one developer helps the entire genre.

10-23-2003, 02:57 PM	#66
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	Should we all hold hands now and sing kumbaya?

10-23-2003, 03:00 PM	#68
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	There's an official FOF forum?

10-23-2003, 03:10 PM	#73
Bee Pro Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fairfax, VA	spleen, just count yourself lucky there hasn't been a comparison of the beta diaries for the two games...you're up against the King around these parts...

10-23-2003, 03:24 PM	#76
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	After reading through the Q & A, I'm encouraged by the new version, even though I don't think I'll be playing multiplayer. Although people are free to evaluate the new version based on the number of new features, I think the best way to improve FOF is to improve features that are already in the game, and especially by improving the AI that governs existing features. I've found FOF4, with the latest patch, to be the most challenging version to date. However, Jim's comment that he has worked hard on free agency seems to me--after considerable time with FOF4--to be a needed move to increase the challenge in the game. The draft AI took a big jump in quality with the latest FOF4 patch, and if free agency has gotten the same kind of overhaul and if the AI roster management has had some tweaking, I think we may see one of the more robust text-sim AIs on the market. The AI will have made huge strides as compared to FOF2001. I'm also excited about the addition of career records, and glad to see that multiplayer has been added. I'm glad that chemisty will still be included, and am interested to see how it will be set up in this version. Although the astrological signs were a bit artificial, I liked their impact on the game. Lastly, I am excited that someone as good as Quiksand is involved in beta testing, and am sure that the game will be better because of it. I think this may be the best version of FOF4 yet. On a slightly different tack, I am also excited that SkyDog is involved with TPF, and am encouraged to read some of his comments about the game. I get a sense that they are doing things the right way, and I'm looking forward to their release as well. There is definitely room for two good football sims. __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review

10-23-2003, 03:59 PM	#86
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	can I ask why wgnasty's thread @ .400 is stickied? Its a flame fest on Jim and its stickied? I don't know if one thing has actually been mentioned about a .400 game, but the whole thread says FOF sucks. If this is a company board, I find that kind of classless.

10-23-2003, 04:08 PM	#87
Solecismic Solecismic Software Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Canton, OH	I wish Arlie and .400 the best with TPF. He's been around here for years, and there's no question about his contributions to the sports sim community. I also want to thank Quik again for all his work with the diary. He's even juggling beta versions (which is a giant pain, given that they share registry keys) so that he can keep the career alive that he's using for the diary. It means a lot to me that he's willing to tell people he's testing the game and put the extra time into writing about it. I like this forum. I especially like what SkyDog has done with it. And I think it works better without an official affiliation. I don't feel pressure to control discussion that way, or worry about sexual innuendo in items. It works so well that I don't feel the need to have my own forum. The negative is that my release won't necessarily have the full attention of the board, but the positives heavily outweigh the negatives, as people who are just sports sim fans in general feel comfortable here. I know I can ask a question here and get a straight answer.

10-23-2003, 04:26 PM	#89
GrantDawg World Champion Mis-speller Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Covington, Ga.	nevermind. They corrected it. Last edited by GrantDawg : 10-23-2003 at 04:27 PM.

10-23-2003, 04:29 PM	#90
The_herd College Starter Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Fort Lackland, Texas (San Antonio)	I've bought every game Jim and Arlie have made so far. I enjoy contributing in some way to the games both of you make. And although I'm somewhat disappointed that a couple of features will not be included in FOF2004, I'm incredibly excited about the Multi-Player potential for the FOF series. I will hopefully be a first day buyer for FOF2004, but for that to happen Jim needs to promise to wait until I'm finished moving to San Antonio. With that being said, I will forever be cautious on purchasing .400 studio's products after the TDCB disaster. I don't know Arlie as a person, but I do know that he is a dedicated developer. However, I can't help but begin to question how things are run over there when they sticky and participate in flamefests against the competition on their forums. I wish both Jim and Arlie the best of luck with their games and hope that both sell beyond expectations.

10-23-2003, 04:54 PM	#91
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	Many disjointed thoughts, stay with me. Are we being invaded and no one told me? October 2003 newbies sure have alot of stout comments on FOF. I better go make sure somebody hasn't slit my tires. And as an aside. Purchasing these games are not mutually exclusive. You can have both, and I bet most here will. Territorial warfare has always interested me. You would think the Battle of Little Bighorn was about to be revisited. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

10-23-2003, 05:08 PM	#92
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Wow...I just read that thread. Did I really use to stick up for this guy? shivers I feel so dirty now...

10-23-2003, 05:25 PM	#93
nilodor College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: calgary, AB	My big question is: if TCY needs to be updated for the draft files to work with FOF 2k4, what is going to happen to the historical project? Is there going to be a converter to convert the files from FOF4 to FOF 2k4? If not will it be possible for a 3rd party to make a converter cough 3ric? Are there new data fields that would have to be added to the files?

10-23-2003, 05:53 PM	#98
Dutch "Dutch" Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Tampa, FL	Jeez Jim, it's a good thing your married or you might have Senator and his goons chasing after you like a pack of dogs in heat. That's pretty thoughtful that you are willing to help out with those files.

10-23-2003, 06:04 PM	#99
Senator FOFC's Elected Representative Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The stars at night; are big and bright	Gotta have the history!!!! Thanks Jim. Rest assured we will not chase you as dogs in heat. Squids in heat, perhaps. __________________ "i have seen chris simms play 4-5 times in the pros and he's very clearly got it. he won't make a pro bowl this year, but it'll come. if you don't like me saying that, so be it, but its true. we'll just have to wait until then" imettrentgreen "looking at only ten games, and oddly using a median only, leaves me unmoved generally" - Quiksand

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