Building a Computer Question... - Page 2

Godzilla Blitz · 10-26-2003, 11:22 PM

Ryche: Just took a quick look, but do you already have the RAM?

By the way, this site seems full of helpful stuff...

www.overclockers.com

Ryche · 10-26-2003, 11:43 PM

Not yet, but the plan for now is one 512 stick and then probably adding a second one in 6 months or so when it will be needed.

FloridaFringe · 10-27-2003, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ryche
Not yet, but the plan for now is one 512 stick and then probably adding a second one in 6 months or so when it will be needed.

Just remember 2 things:

In order for the Hyper Threading to actually work you will need PC3200 or better DDR. Do not fall for saving money on lesser ram or you will not get the benefits of true multi-tasking and it will end up being a waste of money to get such a good chip and MoBo.

Also, for true HT to work you will need to get ram in pairs or else there is no way that the technology can do what it needs to do correctly. Right now there is no difference in price to get 2 sticks of 256 as opposed to 1 stick of 512 so make sure you don't make a common mistake or else once again you will have wasted money on such a good chip and MoBo.

Nice choices in your list by the way.

FloridaFringe · 10-27-2003, 08:33 AM

GB,

Yes the computer show was a bit of a disappointment but I am already over it this morning since it did help me to finalize what I will be buying and from where. It was worth the experience in the least and I was able to spend some time with my father so that is always a good thing.

The built in sound on the Abit board has been compared to some of the top quality sound cards on the market today. Not the $200 or $300 cards mind you but more people than not will probable never notice the difference in regards to cards such as the Sound Blaster Audigy Gamer. As Tasan has already mentioned the onboard sound can usually be disabled at the click of a mouse or a press of a key. Especially with a high-end Mobo so you really shouldn't have anything to worry about there.

My suggestion, or at least what I plan on doing, is to save the money on the sound card for now and to go with the onboard sound. Buy a decent set of 5.1 speakers that you can usually find for less than $100. As a matter of fact I can vouch well for the
6-Piece Altec Lansing 5.1 Speaker System that I have recently seen at BestBuy for $80. Spend the extra cash that you save on a really good case or video card and then make the decision on spending some serious cash on a really good sound card down the road if you really want to. My personal goal is to upgrade to a high-end sound card within the next 6 months or so.

BTW, getting an ATI 9600 or 9600pro with 256mb is probably your best bang for the buck. Spending any more money on a better video card that cost more than $200 is more than likely a waste of cash. The ultra expensive video will come down in price so fast over the next 6 months that you shouldn't rush to get one now. They fall in price like PC games where they are top tier to start but are soon replaced by better cards so the price needs to reflect that by being lowered substantially.

Ryche · 10-27-2003, 08:51 AM

Thanks for the heads up on the memory issues, that's the type of little details that I'm not aware of. And I'll tell my wife you liked the list, she'll be quite happy about that.

FloridaFringe · 10-27-2003, 09:44 AM

Soon enough the whole Hyper Threading issue will be second nature to many but for now the true aspects of it all are rather obscure to most. Chances are that none of us would ever notice whether or not the computer was actually using the technology or not.

Here is the official word from the Intel website on Hyper Threading. There is even an informational video found on the right side of the page under HT Technology Details and listed as Hyper-Threading Demo.

BTW, your wife has very funky tastes when it comes to cases. I can certainly understand though as I myself and rather picky on how it looks as well as how well it functions. The lighting additions should make here very happy.

FloridaFringe · 10-27-2003, 09:49 AM

Looking through this weeks ad for BestBuy I ran across another good deal on a video card. Although it is only 128mb the price is right especially considering that they are throwing in a full copy of Half Life 2 for those that would be interested. The only thing that I am not sure about is how well the SE version holds up to the full version. One bonus is that there are no rebates involved so there are no extra out of pocket expenses if that happens to be a concern.

ATI Radeon 9600 SE 8x AGP Graphics Card ($130)

Easy Mac · 10-27-2003, 10:42 AM

If this helps, I picked up a:
Asus A7n8x Deluxe (Dual Lan, 2 firewire ports, serial ATA) w/ 512 mb ram, 2500+ XP AMD, 60 gb hd, GeForce 5600 fx, CD-rw, DVD, XP Pro with a pretty pimp (if not bright, because it has a lot of lights and a see-through side) case for around $750

I already want to upgrade the video and double the ram (I want to take advantage of the dual channel layout), and I want some better speakers (to take advantage of the nice audio onbaord). And maybe some kind of tv tuner for when I get an apartment next year.

wbonnell · 10-27-2003, 11:51 AM

What's the current thinking 'round here on LCD monitors? I'm perilously close to pulling the trigger on:

http://compare.hitachidisplays.com/h...type=in&id=853

Bright 17" display with a fast 16ms pixel response, although I don't play action games on PC- that's why I have an XBox. Oh, and it sports a DVI connector to boot.

jefflackey · 10-27-2003, 12:14 PM

I wrote an article for Computer Games Magazine: a Dummy's Guide to Building a Computer. Great way to finance building a nw computer.

A couple of lessons learned:

1. When you narrow down your choices on a motherboard, find a good web site with large active forums and do some reading. I chose a Gigabyte AMD board, and I found the Gigabyte forum at amdmb.com invaluable. Not only did the forum have a lot of tips and tricks, they were able to answer a couple of questions on set-up that were not at all obvious from the MB manual.

2. The step that is the most fraught with danger, where you can do the most harm, is putting the heatsink on the CPU. If you use a bladed screwdriver to push the springs down, and slip while pushing down hard, you can stick a screwdriver right into the MB or have it scrape across the board. Using something a little more blunt might be good your first time (it isn't all that hard, you just need to be careful.)

3. Do as much as you can on the motherboard BEFORE you put it into the case - particularly any jumper settings, etc.

4. Get some good cable organizers of some type and tie up and clean up all of the cables and wires when you're done. Not only does it look crappy to have all those cables filling up the case, but they significantly restrict airflow.

5. Somebody mentioned this: do some research and get a good, QUIET heatsink fan.

6. Get the Artic Silver. Their webpage has some good reading on applying and cleaning off any thermal pads, etc.

7. Make sure the heatsink/fan is truly flat on the CPU - it's not hard to have it slightly tilted. Not good for the CPU.

8. Don't skimp on the case. Get a great case, not just a good one. A great case will be usable no matter how you eventually upgrade the computer.

Remember that if you do ANYTHING wrong the computer will burst into flames when you first hit the on button.

(JUST kidding.)

I doubt that you can build one cheaper than you can buy one - and if you don't have the bundled software (such as XP) it will be hard to build one as cheap as Dell. BUT - every component is exactly what you want. When I've ordered from Dell in the past, I usually have to get something I don't want and replace it (e.g., they won't ship without a video card.) You will know your system intimately, so when you want to upgrade something, such as the CPU, memory, etc. it will be no big deal. If you choose wisely, you will have a good upgrade path (my Dell P3 866 MHz machine was only upgradeable to 1 GHz, due to the MB.)

And it's fun. Satisfying. I'll never buy another PC from a Dell or Gateway (well, except for notebooks - we really need someone to sell notebook components.

) Since I review games for mags and websites, I end up upgrading my computer about once every 1.5 years - now I'm looking forward to it.

FloridaFringe · 10-27-2003, 04:22 PM

Excellent suggestions Jeff. The only point that I would dispute is the cost of custom-built computers over those of larger companies. Indeed, if the software is a necessity then a package deal may be best. However, if the software is something that is not apart of the equation then there is without a doubt a better bargain to be had with buying piece by piece.

The computer that I am putting together would easily cost over $1000 if you were to buy it from a larger company. Actually, you probably couldn't find the specs anyhow. Even the computer that GB is looking into with all of the software would still run over $2000 in the stores.

One area that larger companies have custom built beat other than with software is with tech support. Hands down without a doubt the tech support can come in very handy if you don't know what you are doing or don't want to deal with any problems.

One area that custom-built computers have over larger companies other than with specific specs is in the area of upgrading. As Jeff has mentioned most of the store bought computers are streamlined to fit within the realm of a certain expectation of the here and now. Custom built computers can be envisioned for the future as well. One case in point is with Gateway and their $1500 computers that only come with a 250-watt power supply and can only handle 1 gig of memory. That power supply couldn't handle the top of the line video cards now let alone a year down the road and 1 gig of memory will easily be surpassed before that.

At any rate, it all comes down to what you are looking for out of the whole computer experience. Either option is a valid choice dependant on what your expectations are for now and down the road.

Oh yes, budget plays a huge factor as well.

FloridaFringe · 10-27-2003, 04:25 PM

Some more deals that can save some money in the long run:

Office Max

Iconcepts Optical Mouse with Wheel (Free after rebate)

Iconcepts Multimedia Keyboard (Free after rebate)

Iconcepts 6-Outlet Surge Protector (Free after rebate)

Belkin Network PCI Card (Free after rebates)

Can’t beat the free stuff.

Godzilla Blitz · 10-27-2003, 10:16 PM

Tasan: Thanks for the info on the mobo sound.

Ryche: I'm wondering about the P2.6C CPU you're buying. Maybe someone else can jump in here, but I've been reading some articles that praise the P2.4C chip as being a great chip and one that gives great results when overclocked. I've read a lot of stories of overclocking to 3.0Ghz and up with the 2.4C, but have yet to see the same praise heaped on the 2.6C or 2.8C. Some of the results seem to indicate that the 2.4C CPU beats out the the faster chips when overclocked. Anyone shed some light on this?

Florida: Thanks for the info on the sound cards. I have a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz card in my current set up, and have a decent Harmon/Karmon three-speaker set up. I'll probably move them to the new computer and find some cheap replacement for the old computer. I'm not picky when it comes to sound and basically just want something that will give me decent sound and not cause any problems. The Turtle Beach card has been great in that regard.

Florida: I've read a few posts on other boards saying "stay away from the ATI SE cards". No clue why though.

wbonnell: I'll take a shot at the monitor question. From what I've read, the major positives with the CRT's are: better color and better response times. The major positives with the LCD's are: smaller footprint, less heat, and less weight. If quality of the picture is your only concern, CRT's seem to be the way to go. If you've got limited space or need to move your computer around often, LCD's might be a good choice. Personally, I think the LCD's are just more modern looking, and CRT's look like stone age stuff next to them. Maybe someone else that knows more can jump in, but that's my current understanding of the general differences. If you're not using a monitor for action gaming, and top-quality color is not a priority, maybe the LCD is the way to go for you? How does a 16ms pixel response compare to a CRT's response time?

Florida, Easy Mac: Assuming everything else it ok, if you have four identical sticks of memory in your computer, will Hyper Threading still work?

Jeff: Thanks for the tips. I'll have to go dig up your article.

At this point, anyway, I think that I'd have to agree with Florida that you can save money by building a computer yourself. I'm not even sure the software advantages when buying from the major companies are that big of a plus. For me, I'll be buying Windows XP Pro OEM from Newegg ($141) when I buy some hardware, and even with that cost I think an identical system would cost me about $300-$500 more at Dell. Not only that but I can get an academic version of Office 2003 for much cheaper than I could get one with Dell. Lastly, I don't have to deal with AOL or Earthlink splattered all over my computer. Once I get further in the process, I'll price everything out and compare. Be interesting to see the difference, if there is one.

Florida: As much as I dread shopping at Office Max and Office Depot, I might have to make a trip there for a keyboard, mouse, and surge protector. Thanks! I swear they have the dumbest staff on the planet, though. I think a requirement to work there is that you know nothing about the content of the store. I still laugh at the time my wife went in to have some copies made there. She had roughly one thousand copies made (less than $50 dollars worth of copies), and the clerk rang up the charge at over $6,000. When my wife told her that there must be some kind of mistake, the clerk gave a blank stare, and rang it up again. Same price comes up, so she told my wife, "No, it comes up the same way again." Sigh. At .04/copy, there would have been 1.5 million sheets of paper, or roughly 150 of those heavy, 10-ream cartons of paper. Yet the clerk, who had just handed the order to my wife in a bag, had no idea how ridiculous the charge was. Took the manager and another clerk to get the whole thing straightened out.

Ryche · 10-27-2003, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Ryche: I'm wondering about the P2.6C CPU you're buying. Maybe someone else can jump in here, but I've been reading some articles that praise the P2.4C chip as being a great chip and one that gives great results when overclocked. I've read a lot of stories of overclocking to 3.0Ghz and up with the 2.4C, but have yet to see the same praise heaped on the 2.6C or 2.8C. Some of the results seem to indicate that the 2.4C CPU beats out the the faster chips when overclocked. Anyone shed some light on this?

Not too concerned about overclocking, the most severe game this computer will ever play is Everquest 2. I sure as hell hope 2.6 will be enough for that.

FloridaFringe · 10-27-2003, 11:26 PM

In regards to OfficeMax, in and out. Don't ask questions and don't even consider buying anything else. Grab the desired items and the necessary paper work and get it over with. This is how I have always handled shopping there for anything.

Love the story about the copies. Had to be good for some laughs once it was all over with I'm sure.

Transferring the sound card is a great way to save money. Chances are though that the onboard sound is probably going to be better considering that it will be 5.1 surround sound. Of course you would need to grab either a 4-point with bass speaker system or a 6-speaker system to take advantage of it. In the meantime the sound card that you have should do just fine and save some start up costs as well. That is part of the trick.

The 2.4c has been discussed as being the most stable chip when overclocked even up at speed of 3 gigs. For my money I would tend to bet that this is the best chip for overclocking on the market today.

However, a word to the wise about overclocking. Make sure that you really do your research on this subject before attempting anything of the sort. This is a highly dangerous and costly hobby that you are considering taking up. Have a backup system running and some reserve cash to make repairs if necessary. If anything goes slightly wrong it is possible to fry your entire system. I have heard horror stories about chips going bad and taking the motherboard, video card, memory, hard drive and pretty much everything else with it.

Today’s motherboards are much easier to overclock with though and help to reduce the risk involved. My personal view on the subject is to run everything at normal speeds for a good period of time like 6 months or so and then overclock only if necessary. A chip with the power of a 2.4c will blow your socks off straight out of the package and with the other specs that you have mentioned you will be in wonderland without having to add the stress and pressure of worrying about overheating anything.

Thanks for the tips on the SE. I have decided to get the Xtasy ATI 9600 8x 256mb card from CompUSA by the end of this week. I figure that it is the best bet for now and that nothing better will come along for a while so why not jump right in?

Airhog · 10-27-2003, 11:54 PM

has anyone actually installed a water cooling system in their computer?

Any pros and cons to this other than the obvious?

Also since most video cards now have a beefy fan/heatsink, is it possible to cool your video card with water? Im guessing no, but it would be nice.

It would be even better if you could cool the processor, powersupply, videocard, and your harddrives all with one system. It would really cut the noise.

Believe me when i say a loud fan sucks, it will get on your nerves after a year or 2

Ryche · 10-27-2003, 11:58 PM

We have officially started I guess, my wife bought the video card today.

yabanci · 10-28-2003, 12:05 AM

hi there, I just built my newest computer a few months ago, so I thought I'd throw this in.

As everyone says, Newegg is the only place to buy.

One thing that many people don't think about when buying computers is sound. This might not apply to you, but there are choices you can make when buying that will make your new computer SIGNIFICANTLY more quiet. And once you've heard a quiet pc, you'll realize what you've been missing. When you buy prebuilt, you don't really have any of these options. So when I built this computer I did heavy research into how to make it a "quiet pc."

If this interests you, the most important decision is the case. I went with the Antec Sonata, because it was designed as a quiet case. It has a single 80mm fan (large fans are quieter because they need less rpms), an antec 380wt single fan power supply (almost all powersupplies come with two fans, which generate more noise), and special drive bays to reduce vibration. It also has a sylish black paint job that looks like something out of a jaguar dealership show room.

The second most important decision is the heatsink/fan. The stock amd and intel fans are noisy as hell, and they inferior at cooling. Again, you want to get a hsf with a large fan with low rpm. There are a number of options for this, but I went with the Spire falconrock II because it has great cooling, low sound, and a low price ($21).

Hard drives and video cards also contribute noise and some think you can make a difference by making certain choices here too, but I think it's negligible.

So anyway, here is what I went with:

AMD Athlon XP 2500 Barton processor
Spire Falconrock2 HSF
Epox 8RDA nforce2 motherboard
512k Kingston HyperX PC3500 ram
nvida gforce fx5600 128mb
Maxtor 160gb hard drive 7200 8mb buffer
Antec Sonata case
KDS XF-9b 19' flatscreen monitor
Windows XP Home OEM

Overclock the processor and this will run at 3.2 ghz.

I already had the other parts, so I think this was all I got. A quick check shows you can get it all for about $800, with little or no shipping charges.

You just need a keyboard, mouse, cd-rw or dvd+rw, and speakers. Most of the things like sound card, network card, firewire, usb, etc, are all integrated on the nvidia nforce2 motherboard, and they are excellent (especially sound), so you don't need to buy them separately. This is a big reason I like the nforce2 chipsets -- because so much is integrated you don't have to worry about driver conflicts and you don't have to buy and (worst of all) install them separately. Simplicity is extremely valuable.

With regard to processor, some people like intel because it is the leader and many of its processors are more powerful than amd's. I go with AMD because they simply cost much less for equal performance and can be overclocked much more effectively. But really this generation's processors are all so fast the difference is not really noticable. For example, I can run my processor at 2.5 gz and then bump it up to 3.2 gz, and for the most part I really can't tell the difference between the two. For things like web browsing, email, word processing, etc, it's feels exactly the same. So don't worry too much about whether this is a little faster than that -- you probaby wouldn't notice anyway.

It's probably true that the ATI GPUs presently are faster than the nvidia GPUs, but I went with nvidea because nvidia also makes the nforce2 motherboard chipset, so you are less likely to have conflicts going all nvidia. So with nvidia I have a single unified driver that handles I/O, video, sound, network, firewire, usb, everything.

Whatever you do, one place you can save a lot of money is the hard drive. Typically you can get a 160gb hard drive for about $140. But if you watch the anandtech hot deals forum you will find places that put the drives on sale and with a rebate you can get the drive for about half price. I think I got mine for $74 shipping and tax included.

And whatever you do, don't buy the fastest chip out there, it's just complete a waste of money.

Go to the anandtech forums and you will get a ton of free help from the hardcore hardware experts.

good luck.

Godzilla Blitz · 10-28-2003, 11:14 PM

I've been looking at motherboards today. Kind of overwhelming. I'm getting a sense that ASUS and ABIT are the leading Intel mobo makers, but it's been difficult for me to find easy to digest info on a number of boards. Does anyone know a site that ranks motherboards by categories on a one- or two-webpage chart? At most of the sites I've been to, each motherboard gets a write-up on a single webpage. This means wading through dozens of pages and writeups. Yuck. Or anyone have an Intel board recommendation for a P4 2.4C (or higher) CPU w 800MHz Hyper Threading?

Florida: Your point on not needing to overclock for a while is an excellent one. I've noticed that a lot of people that build their own computers are really into squeezing every bit of performance out of their machines. Some pretty hardcore stuff. I've got to stay away from that game. No need to go there. Hell, I've been somewhat happy with how Morrowind runs on my P3 800MHz. I'll be in hog heaven with that game running on a P4.

Airhog: Isn't water cooling kind of expensive ($200-$300 for a heatsink?), and geared towards really pushing the limits of your machine?

Ryche: Way to go! I've started as well. I'm starting to drop things in a cart at Newegg.

yabanci: Thanks for all the info. I was looking at the Sonata case too, but had noticed that quite a few people had complained about the flimsy front door breaking, and the way the rear fan mounts on the case (some kind of rubber dohickies that don't work well). What's your take on those comments? Other than those comments, it sure did look like that was a solid case.

Also, regarding cases, I read an article today that talked about the new style of motherboards (BTX form instead of ATX form?) that will be coming out next year. According to the article, it represents a vastly new motherboard architecture, and will make existing cases obsolete (as far as upgrading goes) over the course of the next couple of years. In other words, when you go to upgrade your motherboard a year from now, you'll want to get a BTX motherboard instead of an ATX, and a BTX won't work in any case you buy today. So...the traditional idea of plunking down extra cash on a nice case that will last you through multiple upgrades doesn't apply any more. Not sure if there's something the author is missing.

The article:
BTX Motherboards

Tasan · 10-28-2003, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Airhog
has anyone actually installed a water cooling system in their computer?

Any pros and cons to this other than the obvious?

Also since most video cards now have a beefy fan/heatsink, is it possible to cool your video card with water? Im guessing no, but it would be nice.

It would be even better if you could cool the processor, powersupply, videocard, and your harddrives all with one system. It would really cut the noise.

Believe me when i say a loud fan sucks, it will get on your nerves after a year or 2

Ironic that Airhog would post about water cooling, in a geeky ironic way at least ;- )

Anyway, as GB stated water cooling was originally designed to be a highend overclocker's way to cool a system way down. However, its becoming an alternative for quiet systems too.

As far as video cards, yes, most water cooling systems do come with vid solutions. You just have to get the cooling that came with your card, off. It can be tricky, you've got to be real gentle. I know a guy who killed his card prying off the heatsink with a screwdriver.

Several of the water cooling systems being sold today come with cooling solutions for every piece of heated system hardware. Harddrives, vid cards, processor, power supply, and sometimes memory.

Just be careful and don't nick any of the hoses, etc. It would suck to have a leak. ;- )

FloridaFringe · 10-28-2003, 11:37 PM

The BTX Motherboards will be coming out next year but it isn't something that you will need to worry about for a while. With the setup that you are looking at building there will be several upgrades available to you that will last well into 2004 if not 2005. It will take you some time to max out your memory and the video cards that you will have to choose from over the next year will satisfy you plenty without worrying about upgrading your motherboard. This is part of the reason to make sure that you get a really good motherboard right from the start. That way you can focus on the fun stuff for the next couple of years. Once you are ready to rebuild another computer from scratch then it will all start over again with the BTX instead of ATX boards. In the end you will be able to sell your complete custom built computer with the case and all in order to re-coop some cash for the next build. It’s a beautiful cycle to get into and can yield some interesting results.

The greatest comments that keep repeating themselves in this thread by many others and myself is the simple fact that many of the "advanced" alterations that you can make will not seem noticeable. You are looking at building a computer that will be on the verge of being completely awesome and the difference between overclocking a 2.4 to a 3 or getting a P5 instead of a P4 or a $500 video card over a $200 card just won't be substantial, for now. The point is that anything you put together now will seem like a godsend compared to what you have and therefore will impress you well beyond your expectations. Save your money and the stress by sticking to what you think will work well without going overboard.

As far as comparing Motherboards goes, Abit has a Comparison Chart that lists all of their boards side by side so that you can see the differences. I am sure that Asus does the same if you look hard enough. The main thing that you want to do is to look for a FSB of 800/533 and it will probably state that it supports Hyper Threading. If you find a board that shows a FSB of 800/533/400 then it will require some research to find out if the 800 is emulated or a true FSB. In other words, several 533/400 boards can be pushed to 800mhz so they advertise them as such when in reality they are not a true 800mhz board. This is the same concept with memory as well and the main reason to stick with anything that is DDR3200 or better instead of settling for DDR2700 or less.

Here is a link to the Abit comparisons: Link

Also, check out Motherboards.com for some more info: Link

If you like just post the Abit boards and the Asus boards that you are looking at within your price point and I will see if there is anything that I can offer in regards to specifics about each.

sterlingice · 10-29-2003, 12:03 AM

For hardware reports, I like to check out:

www.extremetech.com (it's a pcmagazine site) and, of course,
www.tomshardware.com

SI

Godzilla Blitz · 10-29-2003, 12:13 AM

This is a stupid question, but do most decent motherboards have an Ethernet port on them now? Is that what the "1xCOM" signifies in the board's I/O features list? (meaning there is one 10/100 Ethernet connection on the board itself?)

Florida: Thanks again for all the info. Kind of narrowed down the motherboard choice to one of the following three:

ASUS P4P800 DELUXE ($120 something)
ABIT IC7-G ($172)
ABIT IC7 ($120 something)

Leaning towards the ABIT IC7-G. It's about $50 more than the other two, but looks like it might be worth the extra cash. t this point, I'm basically throwing together the system I would like to buy, then plan on dropping down in quality if everything comes to more than $1500. I'd also like to avoid wasting money on something that just won't matter too, so I'd be interested in hearing if anyone thinks these boards are overkill.

Sterling: Thanks! I'll go check those sites out. I'm getting a great list of sites here! I did notice a small button at Newegg that lets you view one vendor's products in a more user friendly list, so that helps considerably.

...Now I'm looking at RAM. I take it Corsair, Kensington, and Crucial are good? Should I be worried about getting RAM from a reputable company, or is all that matters the DDR3200 and the amount?

Godzilla Blitz · 10-29-2003, 12:31 AM

This seems to be helpful regarding the ATI video cards. It's a the benchmark portion of an article from one of the sites Sterling suggested:

ATI Benchmarks

yabanci · 10-29-2003, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz

yabanci: Thanks for all the info. I was looking at the Sonata case too, but had noticed that quite a few people had complained about the flimsy front door breaking, and the way the rear fan mounts on the case (some kind of rubber dohickies that don't work well). What's your take on those comments? Other than those comments, it sure did look like that was a solid case.

[/b]

yes, the front door is sort of flimsy because it's removable and if you are not careful when you take it off and put it on you might break it. (but you only take it off when first install the front drive bays and even then you don't need to remove it). I disagree about the rear fan mounts -- they work great and are important in stopping vibration and noise. The manual doesn't do the best job of explaining how to install the rear fan with the rubber grommets, so that might have been the problem for the people who complained.

yabanci · 10-29-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz

...Now I'm looking at RAM. I take it Corsair, Kensington, and Crucial are good? Should I be worried about getting RAM from a reputable company, or is all that matters the DDR3200 and the amount?

Yes, imo you should get high quality ram from a reputable company, because ram is notorious for causing system instability. Probably the smartest thing you can do is once you decide on your motherboard, go to the forums for that motherboard and see what people are saying about ram. You will probably see there what kind of ram works well with the MB and what kind has problems. For example, with my MB everybody was having problems with Corsair but getting really good results with Kingston, so I went with Kingston HyperX and have never had a problem.

kingnebwsu · 10-29-2003, 01:32 AM

Well, my buddies put together my PC and it's up and running (kind of). Roomy had to sleep, otherwise I'd have XP. But I'm stuck with '98 tonight. Halo PC kept crashing on me, so I dunno what the deal is. More in a few days after I (hopefully) get everything straightened out.l

Tasan · 10-29-2003, 03:23 AM

Crucial is the top of the line in memory pretty much. It is very important to match your ram to your motherboard too, so I'd get a list of "compatable" ram for the motherboard you are looking at. Most manufacturers will have one.

Most motherboards do have ethernet ports on them, but he 1xCOM you are seeing is in reference to the serial port.

wishbone · 10-29-2003, 09:46 AM

Crucial, Kensington and Corsair are all good brands, I personally buy Crucial but the other 2 brands generally have more aggressive timings so they can run faster.

The ATI 9600SE is a neutered version of the other 9600s, it has a 64bit memory interface, other ATI cards are 128 bit. Get a 9600XT, it should be under $200, comes with a voucher for Half-life 2 and generally outperforms the nVidia cards in most directx 9 games, giving you a better card now and for the next couple years.

Here's a comparison of the 9600s:
http://www.ati.com/products/radeon96...o/compare.html

jefflackey · 10-29-2003, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz
This is a stupid question, but do most decent motherboards have an Ethernet port on them now? Is that what the "1xCOM" signifies in the board's I/O features list? (meaning there is one 10/100 Ethernet connection on the board itself?)

Florida: Thanks again for all the info. Kind of narrowed down the motherboard choice to one of the following three:

ASUS P4P800 DELUXE ($120 something)
ABIT IC7-G ($172)
ABIT IC7 ($120 something)

Here's an article that compares those motherboards (and some others

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1203440,00.asp

Yeah, most MBs have a decent Ethernet port on them.

I like Cruical for memory. Others may be fine, I just have had good experiences with them, so I stick with them.

Jeff

Godzilla Blitz · 11-03-2003, 10:12 PM

Thanks again for all the feedback on cases and memory. Got sidetracked for a few days with family stuff, but have managed to start piecing together components today.

Friday I got a book: Build you own High-Performance Gamer's Mod PC. I looked at three different books, and this one was the most clearly written of the pack, with decent photos and straightforward instructions. Build Your Own PC,
by Morris Rosenthal has a pretty cover, but the writing was trash: lots of typos and ambiguous instructions abound. The third book I looked at, The Dummies' Guide to Building a PC, was ok, but they crack too many stupid jokes, are too wordy, and have no photos, so I passed on that one. So far I've been pleased with the content of the book I got, but the real test will come when I start plugging things together.

Also picked up a case today: Antec Sonata.

Hope to have all the pieces in the next couple of weeks, but I'm in no hurry, so I might wait for good deals.

Costs so far:
Book: $1.29 (used credit card coupons worth $20) Bought at Border's
Case: $127 (awaiting $20 rebate check). Bought at MicroCenter. This case would have been $106 shipped from Newegg, so I could have saved $1 and not have had to wait for a rebate check if I had purchased through them, but I wanted to get started now, and liked the idea of being able to pick an undamaged box off the shelf at MicroCenter.
Total: $128.79

wbonnell · 11-03-2003, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wishbone
Crucial, Kensington and Corsair are all good brands, I personally buy Crucial but the other 2 brands generally have more aggressive timings so they can run faster.

The ATI 9600SE is a neutered version of the other 9600s, it has a 64bit memory interface, other ATI cards are 128 bit. Get a 9600XT, it should be under $200, comes with a voucher for Half-life 2 and generally outperforms the nVidia cards in most directx 9 games, giving you a better card now and for the next couple years.

Here's a comparison of the 9600s:
http://www.ati.com/products/radeon96...o/compare.html

Have you heard about the apparent production snafu?

http://forums.anandtech.com/messagev...AR_MSGDBTABLE=

I visited all three local (Austin) area Best Buys today but failed to find one. Oh well...

yabanci · 11-03-2003, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz

Also picked up a case today: Antec Sonata.

I think you'll be very happy with the case. Here's a couple of tips on putting it together that would have helped me:

1. leave the front door on. You can remove it to install the cd/floppy drives, but it doesn't make it any easier and you might break the door hinge in the process. It's better to just leave it on so it stays secure.

2. When installing the rear fan, you will have four grommets that look like 1" rubber screws. The pointy end of the screws stick out the back of the computer. So the logo side of the fan points out the back of the case and the screws will go from inside the case through the fan holes and stick out the back of the case.

I hope the second point makes sense. If not, it will when it comes time to install the fan. I remember the manual wasn't real clear on this and it just "seemed" wrong to have the grommets poking out the back like that, but that's the way it is supposed to be.

Good luck.

wishbone · 11-04-2003, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wbonnell
Have you heard about the apparent production snafu?

http://forums.anandtech.com/messagev...AR_MSGDBTABLE=

I visited all three local (Austin) area Best Buys today but failed to find one. Oh well...

Yeah I heard about that after I had posted. Heck of a deal if you can find one.

Godzilla Blitz · 11-04-2003, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wbonnell
Have you heard about the apparent production snafu?

http://forums.anandtech.com/messagev...AR_MSGDBTABLE=

I visited all three local (Austin) area Best Buys today but failed to find one. Oh well...

Hey, thanks! The second BestBuy I went to had a 9600 SE in stock with the correct serial number. Bought it, opened it, voila! 9600 PRO! Bingo! $40 discount on the PRO and includes the Half Life 2 coupon as well. Good deal.

Awful considerate of ATI to do this. Just a wonderful company, if you ask me.

yabanci: Thanks for the tips on the case! The second point makes perfect sense.

wbonnell · 11-04-2003, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz
Hey, thanks! The second BestBuy I went to had a 9600 SE in stock with the correct serial number. Bought it, opened it, voila! 9600 PRO! Bingo! $40 discount on the PRO and includes the Half Life 2 coupon as well. Good deal.

Awful considerate of ATI to do this. Just a wonderful company, if you ask me.

yabanci: Thanks for the tips on the case! The second point makes perfect sense.

Good job! Where do you live?

Godzilla Blitz · 11-04-2003, 05:29 PM

Dola...

Added more stuff today. So far I'm up to this...

Video Card: $138.44, Radeon 9600 Pro (w Half Life 2 coupon)
Book: $1.29, Build your own High-Performance...
Case: $127.00, Antec Sonata (awaiting $20 rebate check).
Motherboard: $154.99, ABIT IC7-G MAX2
System Software: $138.00, Windows XP Professional
Other Software: $165.00, Office 2003 Professional
Total to Date: $724.72 (awaiting $20 rebate)

Got to pick up the CPU, sound card, RAM, and drives next.

wbonnell · 11-04-2003, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Godzilla Blitz
Dola...

Added more stuff today. So far I'm up to this...

Video Card: $138.44, Radeon 9600 Pro (w Half Life 2 coupon)
Book: $1.29, Build your own High-Performance...
Case: $127.00, Antec Sonata (awaiting $20 rebate check).
Motherboard: $154.99, ABIT IC7-G MAX2
System Software: $138.00, Windows XP Professional
Other Software: $165.00, Office 2003 Professional
Total to Date: $724.72 (awaiting $20 rebate)

Got to pick up the CPU, sound card, RAM, and drives next.

does your motherboard not have an acceptable sound card?

Godzilla Blitz · 11-04-2003, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wbonnell
Good job! Where do you live?

Sorry, missed your post in there.

Twin Cities. The first BestBuy (Minnetonka) was sold out, expecting more in tonight. The second one (Brooklyn Center) had four in stock, but I'm not sure how many serial numbers have to match in order to be certain to have the PRO inside. The one I bought matched one on the Anandatech forum (180336008xxx-xx), but the other three were 180336009xxx-xx, and I wasn't sure if they have the PRO inside.

I noticed a bunch of these showing up on Ebay now too.

I think the mobo has a good sound card, but I was thinking on adding a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz ($45).

jefflackey · 11-04-2003, 08:09 PM

I never used on-board sound until I built my last system - the Gigabyte board came with what was essentially Creative 5:1 sound chips. I figured I'd try it, and then if the sound was bad or problematic I could always add a sound card later.

Never did add the sound card.

I'd recommend at least trying the on board sound and saving your money - you can always add one in two seconds later if you need one. But I'm betting a dollar you'll decide you don't need one.

Godzilla Blitz · 11-04-2003, 09:14 PM

Does anyone have an opinion on what type of DVD burners (+R or -R) are better? Been looking on the net and it's a lot like the blind leading the blind. I'd like to play DVDs in a PS2 or an X-box, or perhaps even in a standalone DVD player. Getting a combo DVD drive that does both + and - is too expensive for me now.

Also, are there any advantages to having both a DVD player and a DVD burner on the same computer? Can you copy DVDs faster that way?

jeff: I might hold off then and see how it goes. I currently have a Turtle Beach in my old computer, so I may just add a very cheap card to that one and move the Tutle Beach to the new one if I decide I need it. Thanks!

jefflackey · 11-04-2003, 09:34 PM

Godzilla - there's a good review of DVD burners up on extremetech.com.

Just for comparison purposes, I had a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz in my previous computer, and the sound from the MB chipset is at least as good.

Godzilla Blitz · 11-05-2003, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jefflackey
Godzilla - there's a good review of DVD burners up on extremetech.com.

Thanks. I found that very helpful. I've got a couple of candidates picked out now.

Ryche · 11-05-2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Twin Cities. The first BestBuy (Minnetonka) was sold out, expecting more in tonight. The second one (Brooklyn Center) had four in stock, but I'm not sure how many serial numbers have to match in order to be certain to have the PRO inside. The one I bought matched one on the Anandatech forum (180336008xxx-xx), but the other three were 180336009xxx-xx, and I wasn't sure if they have the PRO inside.

Lol, looks like we live extremely close to each other. The Minnetonka Best Buy is within walking distance from my work. Too bad I already bought my video card or I'd have to check out that deal.

Wasabiak · 11-05-2003, 11:06 AM

Have any of you thought about (or maybe you already do) building pc's and selling them on the side, or even for a living? I have been thinking about this for about a year now, due to my severe disinterest in my current job. What would the drawbacks be? Any thoughts?

wbonnell · 11-05-2003, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wasabiak
Have any of you thought about (or maybe you already do) building pc's and selling them on the side, or even for a living? I have been thinking about this for about a year now, due to my severe disinterest in my current job. What would the drawbacks be? Any thoughts?

slim profit margin....

Wasabiak · 11-05-2003, 11:19 AM

What about pc repair? That and fixing cars are about the 2 things i know best. Looks like it's time to return to school.........

Wasabiak · 11-05-2003, 11:26 AM

Dola

I didnt mean to hyjack the thread, sorry.

Godzilla Blitz · 11-06-2003, 02:52 PM

Ryche: Yes, we are close. I live in Golden Valley.

Wasabiak: No problem on the thread jack. No clue on the computer job. I know I couldn't build computers on the side yet, but I would think it could make a decent "hobby-business" if you knew what you're doing. The tricky part would be support. If you build it for someone, they'll call you when something goes wrong, and depending on the customer, that could eat up a boatload of time.

FloridaFringe · 11-06-2003, 07:03 PM

It sounds as if everything is coming along nicely for you. I haven't been able to do much research on any motherboards but from what I have read it would appear as if you have made the right choice by going with the Abit IC7-G Max 2. It also appears as if you are really going with some high-end products in regards to the excellent case that you have bought as well as the DVD Burner that you are currently looking into. From what I am to understand you will be able to copy DVD much faster by having both a player and a separate burner but I have not personally tried this as of yet.

Also, the video card production snafu was obviously good to you since getting a 9600 Pro at such a low price is never a bad thing. So far everything seems to be going well and you are obviously on the right track to building what will probably become the best computer that you will ever have. At least until you build the next one of course.

My personal experience with building computers has lead me down the path of building them as inexpensively as possible and then upgrading whenever necessary. This translate into skipping on several added features on nearly every component in order to slim the costs down to a super low price point. For example, instead of the Abit IC7-G Max 2 I have chosen the Abit IS7, which has brought the overall cost down by $50. There are some really good features included on the IC7 that I personally would never take advantage off so the savings outweighs the need in my particular case.

Furthermore, many people would recommend buying memory from one of the three leading brand name companies but I personally have never done this and prefer a different method. I simply start with the three least expensive memory modules that fit the criteria that are needed and start looking for reviews. This includes customer reviews as well as forum board threads that may point me in a certain direction. Once I am satisfied with a particular non-brand name memory type I usually find that they work just as well as the more expensive brand name types. There will always be faster memory than what someone currently has but the differences are usually not noticeable to me except in the department of overall costs. To this day I have yet to experience any problems with non-brand memory for any of the machines that I have built starting back in 1993, knock on wood. This can save nearly $40 or more per stick of memory, which really adds ups quickly when you need to buy them in pairs.

At any rate, these are just my opinions on building machines that are only meant for my own personal use. The bottom line for me is to save as much money as possible knowing full well that a year or so down the road I will be doing the whole thing over again. In the meantime I can always upgrade to better memory, larger hard drive or even a better video card if necessary and components like DVD drives can always be added as well. Take my words for what they are worth and not necessary as some hard coded advice since the majority of builders may not agree. There are several philosophies of computer building and mine is a more minimalist approach to the hobby. In the end it all comes down to what you have as a starting budget and what you are willing to spend overall.

Best of luck and keep on rolling.

Here is what I bought last weekend to get my new project underway:

Xtasy ATI 9600 AGP 8x 256mb Graphics Card ($150)

SeaGate Barracuda 80gb 7200rpm Internal Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive ($50)

Lite-On 52x32x52 Internal CD-RW Drive ($20)

iConcepts 4D Optical Wheel Mouse (Free)

iConcepts Multimedia Keyboard (Free)

The rest will be ordered this weekend from NewEgg with the intensions of having everything by next weekend for the build process to begin. Keeping my fingers crossed.

10-26-2003, 11:43 PM	#52
Ryche College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO, USA	Not yet, but the plan for now is one 512 stick and then probably adding a second one in 6 months or so when it will be needed. __________________ Some knots are better left untied.

10-27-2003, 08:51 AM	#55
Ryche College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO, USA	Thanks for the heads up on the memory issues, that's the type of little details that I'm not aware of. And I'll tell my wife you liked the list, she'll be quite happy about that. __________________ Some knots are better left untied.

10-27-2003, 09:49 AM	#57
FloridaFringe H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla	Looking through this weeks ad for BestBuy I ran across another good deal on a video card. Although it is only 128mb the price is right especially considering that they are throwing in a full copy of Half Life 2 for those that would be interested. The only thing that I am not sure about is how well the SE version holds up to the full version. One bonus is that there are no rebates involved so there are no extra out of pocket expenses if that happens to be a concern. ATI Radeon 9600 SE 8x AGP Graphics Card ($130) Last edited by FloridaFringe : 10-27-2003 at 09:49 AM.

10-27-2003, 10:16 PM	#63
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Tasan: Thanks for the info on the mobo sound. Ryche: I'm wondering about the P2.6C CPU you're buying. Maybe someone else can jump in here, but I've been reading some articles that praise the P2.4C chip as being a great chip and one that gives great results when overclocked. I've read a lot of stories of overclocking to 3.0Ghz and up with the 2.4C, but have yet to see the same praise heaped on the 2.6C or 2.8C. Some of the results seem to indicate that the 2.4C CPU beats out the the faster chips when overclocked. Anyone shed some light on this? Florida: Thanks for the info on the sound cards. I have a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz card in my current set up, and have a decent Harmon/Karmon three-speaker set up. I'll probably move them to the new computer and find some cheap replacement for the old computer. I'm not picky when it comes to sound and basically just want something that will give me decent sound and not cause any problems. The Turtle Beach card has been great in that regard. Florida: I've read a few posts on other boards saying "stay away from the ATI SE cards". No clue why though. wbonnell: I'll take a shot at the monitor question. From what I've read, the major positives with the CRT's are: better color and better response times. The major positives with the LCD's are: smaller footprint, less heat, and less weight. If quality of the picture is your only concern, CRT's seem to be the way to go. If you've got limited space or need to move your computer around often, LCD's might be a good choice. Personally, I think the LCD's are just more modern looking, and CRT's look like stone age stuff next to them. Maybe someone else that knows more can jump in, but that's my current understanding of the general differences. If you're not using a monitor for action gaming, and top-quality color is not a priority, maybe the LCD is the way to go for you? How does a 16ms pixel response compare to a CRT's response time? Florida, Easy Mac: Assuming everything else it ok, if you have four identical sticks of memory in your computer, will Hyper Threading still work? Jeff: Thanks for the tips. I'll have to go dig up your article. At this point, anyway, I think that I'd have to agree with Florida that you can save money by building a computer yourself. I'm not even sure the software advantages when buying from the major companies are that big of a plus. For me, I'll be buying Windows XP Pro OEM from Newegg ($141) when I buy some hardware, and even with that cost I think an identical system would cost me about $300-$500 more at Dell. Not only that but I can get an academic version of Office 2003 for much cheaper than I could get one with Dell. Lastly, I don't have to deal with AOL or Earthlink splattered all over my computer. Once I get further in the process, I'll price everything out and compare. Be interesting to see the difference, if there is one. Florida: As much as I dread shopping at Office Max and Office Depot, I might have to make a trip there for a keyboard, mouse, and surge protector. Thanks! I swear they have the dumbest staff on the planet, though. I think a requirement to work there is that you know nothing about the content of the store. I still laugh at the time my wife went in to have some copies made there. She had roughly one thousand copies made (less than $50 dollars worth of copies), and the clerk rang up the charge at over $6,000. When my wife told her that there must be some kind of mistake, the clerk gave a blank stare, and rang it up again. Same price comes up, so she told my wife, "No, it comes up the same way again." Sigh. At .04/copy, there would have been 1.5 million sheets of paper, or roughly 150 of those heavy, 10-ream cartons of paper. Yet the clerk, who had just handed the order to my wife in a bag, had no idea how ridiculous the charge was. Took the manager and another clerk to get the whole thing straightened out. Last edited by Godzilla Blitz : 10-27-2003 at 10:19 PM.

10-27-2003, 11:54 PM	#66
Airhog Captain Obvious Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Norman, Oklahoma	has anyone actually installed a water cooling system in their computer? Any pros and cons to this other than the obvious? Also since most video cards now have a beefy fan/heatsink, is it possible to cool your video card with water? Im guessing no, but it would be nice. It would be even better if you could cool the processor, powersupply, videocard, and your harddrives all with one system. It would really cut the noise. Believe me when i say a loud fan sucks, it will get on your nerves after a year or 2 __________________ Thread Killer extraordinaire Yay! its football season once again!

10-27-2003, 08:33 AM	#54
FloridaFringe H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla	GB, Yes the computer show was a bit of a disappointment but I am already over it this morning since it did help me to finalize what I will be buying and from where. It was worth the experience in the least and I was able to spend some time with my father so that is always a good thing. The built in sound on the Abit board has been compared to some of the top quality sound cards on the market today. Not the $200 or $300 cards mind you but more people than not will probable never notice the difference in regards to cards such as the Sound Blaster Audigy Gamer. As Tasan has already mentioned the onboard sound can usually be disabled at the click of a mouse or a press of a key. Especially with a high-end Mobo so you really shouldn't have anything to worry about there. My suggestion, or at least what I plan on doing, is to save the money on the sound card for now and to go with the onboard sound. Buy a decent set of 5.1 speakers that you can usually find for less than $100. As a matter of fact I can vouch well for the 6-Piece Altec Lansing 5.1 Speaker System that I have recently seen at BestBuy for $80. Spend the extra cash that you save on a really good case or video card and then make the decision on spending some serious cash on a really good sound card down the road if you really want to. My personal goal is to upgrade to a high-end sound card within the next 6 months or so. BTW, getting an ATI 9600 or 9600pro with 256mb is probably your best bang for the buck. Spending any more money on a better video card that cost more than $200 is more than likely a waste of cash. The ultra expensive video will come down in price so fast over the next 6 months that you shouldn't rush to get one now. They fall in price like PC games where they are top tier to start but are soon replaced by better cards so the price needs to reflect that by being lowered substantially.

10-27-2003, 09:44 AM	#56
FloridaFringe H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla	Soon enough the whole Hyper Threading issue will be second nature to many but for now the true aspects of it all are rather obscure to most. Chances are that none of us would ever notice whether or not the computer was actually using the technology or not. Here is the official word from the Intel website on Hyper Threading. There is even an informational video found on the right side of the page under HT Technology Details and listed as Hyper-Threading Demo. BTW, your wife has very funky tastes when it comes to cases. I can certainly understand though as I myself and rather picky on how it looks as well as how well it functions. The lighting additions should make here very happy.

10-27-2003, 10:42 AM	#58
Easy Mac Registered User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Here	If this helps, I picked up a: Asus A7n8x Deluxe (Dual Lan, 2 firewire ports, serial ATA) w/ 512 mb ram, 2500+ XP AMD, 60 gb hd, GeForce 5600 fx, CD-rw, DVD, XP Pro with a pretty pimp (if not bright, because it has a lot of lights and a see-through side) case for around $750 I already want to upgrade the video and double the ram (I want to take advantage of the dual channel layout), and I want some better speakers (to take advantage of the nice audio onbaord). And maybe some kind of tv tuner for when I get an apartment next year.

10-27-2003, 11:51 AM	#59
wbonnell College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Round Rock TX	What's the current thinking 'round here on LCD monitors? I'm perilously close to pulling the trigger on: http://compare.hitachidisplays.com/h...type=in&id=853 Bright 17" display with a fast 16ms pixel response, although I don't play action games on PC- that's why I have an XBox. Oh, and it sports a DVI connector to boot.

10-27-2003, 12:14 PM	#60
jefflackey n00b Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Midland, MI	I wrote an article for Computer Games Magazine: a Dummy's Guide to Building a Computer. Great way to finance building a nw computer. A couple of lessons learned: 1. When you narrow down your choices on a motherboard, find a good web site with large active forums and do some reading. I chose a Gigabyte AMD board, and I found the Gigabyte forum at amdmb.com invaluable. Not only did the forum have a lot of tips and tricks, they were able to answer a couple of questions on set-up that were not at all obvious from the MB manual. 2. The step that is the most fraught with danger, where you can do the most harm, is putting the heatsink on the CPU. If you use a bladed screwdriver to push the springs down, and slip while pushing down hard, you can stick a screwdriver right into the MB or have it scrape across the board. Using something a little more blunt might be good your first time (it isn't all that hard, you just need to be careful.) 3. Do as much as you can on the motherboard BEFORE you put it into the case - particularly any jumper settings, etc. 4. Get some good cable organizers of some type and tie up and clean up all of the cables and wires when you're done. Not only does it look crappy to have all those cables filling up the case, but they significantly restrict airflow. 5. Somebody mentioned this: do some research and get a good, QUIET heatsink fan. 6. Get the Artic Silver. Their webpage has some good reading on applying and cleaning off any thermal pads, etc. 7. Make sure the heatsink/fan is truly flat on the CPU - it's not hard to have it slightly tilted. Not good for the CPU. 8. Don't skimp on the case. Get a great case, not just a good one. A great case will be usable no matter how you eventually upgrade the computer. Remember that if you do ANYTHING wrong the computer will burst into flames when you first hit the on button. (JUST kidding.) I doubt that you can build one cheaper than you can buy one - and if you don't have the bundled software (such as XP) it will be hard to build one as cheap as Dell. BUT - every component is exactly what you want. When I've ordered from Dell in the past, I usually have to get something I don't want and replace it (e.g., they won't ship without a video card.) You will know your system intimately, so when you want to upgrade something, such as the CPU, memory, etc. it will be no big deal. If you choose wisely, you will have a good upgrade path (my Dell P3 866 MHz machine was only upgradeable to 1 GHz, due to the MB.) And it's fun. Satisfying. I'll never buy another PC from a Dell or Gateway (well, except for notebooks - we really need someone to sell notebook components. ) Since I review games for mags and websites, I end up upgrading my computer about once every 1.5 years - now I'm looking forward to it.

10-27-2003, 04:22 PM	#61
FloridaFringe H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla	Excellent suggestions Jeff. The only point that I would dispute is the cost of custom-built computers over those of larger companies. Indeed, if the software is a necessity then a package deal may be best. However, if the software is something that is not apart of the equation then there is without a doubt a better bargain to be had with buying piece by piece. The computer that I am putting together would easily cost over $1000 if you were to buy it from a larger company. Actually, you probably couldn't find the specs anyhow. Even the computer that GB is looking into with all of the software would still run over $2000 in the stores. One area that larger companies have custom built beat other than with software is with tech support. Hands down without a doubt the tech support can come in very handy if you don't know what you are doing or don't want to deal with any problems. One area that custom-built computers have over larger companies other than with specific specs is in the area of upgrading. As Jeff has mentioned most of the store bought computers are streamlined to fit within the realm of a certain expectation of the here and now. Custom built computers can be envisioned for the future as well. One case in point is with Gateway and their $1500 computers that only come with a 250-watt power supply and can only handle 1 gig of memory. That power supply couldn't handle the top of the line video cards now let alone a year down the road and 1 gig of memory will easily be surpassed before that. At any rate, it all comes down to what you are looking for out of the whole computer experience. Either option is a valid choice dependant on what your expectations are for now and down the road. Oh yes, budget plays a huge factor as well.

10-27-2003, 04:25 PM	#62
FloridaFringe H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla	Some more deals that can save some money in the long run: Office Max Iconcepts Optical Mouse with Wheel (Free after rebate) Iconcepts Multimedia Keyboard (Free after rebate) Iconcepts 6-Outlet Surge Protector (Free after rebate) Belkin Network PCI Card (Free after rebates) Can’t beat the free stuff.

10-27-2003, 11:26 PM	#65
FloridaFringe H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla	In regards to OfficeMax, in and out. Don't ask questions and don't even consider buying anything else. Grab the desired items and the necessary paper work and get it over with. This is how I have always handled shopping there for anything. Love the story about the copies. Had to be good for some laughs once it was all over with I'm sure. Transferring the sound card is a great way to save money. Chances are though that the onboard sound is probably going to be better considering that it will be 5.1 surround sound. Of course you would need to grab either a 4-point with bass speaker system or a 6-speaker system to take advantage of it. In the meantime the sound card that you have should do just fine and save some start up costs as well. That is part of the trick. The 2.4c has been discussed as being the most stable chip when overclocked even up at speed of 3 gigs. For my money I would tend to bet that this is the best chip for overclocking on the market today. However, a word to the wise about overclocking. Make sure that you really do your research on this subject before attempting anything of the sort. This is a highly dangerous and costly hobby that you are considering taking up. Have a backup system running and some reserve cash to make repairs if necessary. If anything goes slightly wrong it is possible to fry your entire system. I have heard horror stories about chips going bad and taking the motherboard, video card, memory, hard drive and pretty much everything else with it. Today’s motherboards are much easier to overclock with though and help to reduce the risk involved. My personal view on the subject is to run everything at normal speeds for a good period of time like 6 months or so and then overclock only if necessary. A chip with the power of a 2.4c will blow your socks off straight out of the package and with the other specs that you have mentioned you will be in wonderland without having to add the stress and pressure of worrying about overheating anything. Thanks for the tips on the SE. I have decided to get the Xtasy ATI 9600 8x 256mb card from CompUSA by the end of this week. I figure that it is the best bet for now and that nothing better will come along for a while so why not jump right in?

10-27-2003, 11:58 PM	#67
Ryche College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Highlands Ranch, CO, USA	We have officially started I guess, my wife bought the video card today. __________________ Some knots are better left untied.

10-28-2003, 12:05 AM	#68
yabanci College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jun 2003	hi there, I just built my newest computer a few months ago, so I thought I'd throw this in. As everyone says, Newegg is the only place to buy. One thing that many people don't think about when buying computers is sound. This might not apply to you, but there are choices you can make when buying that will make your new computer SIGNIFICANTLY more quiet. And once you've heard a quiet pc, you'll realize what you've been missing. When you buy prebuilt, you don't really have any of these options. So when I built this computer I did heavy research into how to make it a "quiet pc." If this interests you, the most important decision is the case. I went with the Antec Sonata, because it was designed as a quiet case. It has a single 80mm fan (large fans are quieter because they need less rpms), an antec 380wt single fan power supply (almost all powersupplies come with two fans, which generate more noise), and special drive bays to reduce vibration. It also has a sylish black paint job that looks like something out of a jaguar dealership show room. The second most important decision is the heatsink/fan. The stock amd and intel fans are noisy as hell, and they inferior at cooling. Again, you want to get a hsf with a large fan with low rpm. There are a number of options for this, but I went with the Spire falconrock II because it has great cooling, low sound, and a low price ($21). Hard drives and video cards also contribute noise and some think you can make a difference by making certain choices here too, but I think it's negligible. So anyway, here is what I went with: AMD Athlon XP 2500 Barton processor Spire Falconrock2 HSF Epox 8RDA nforce2 motherboard 512k Kingston HyperX PC3500 ram nvida gforce fx5600 128mb Maxtor 160gb hard drive 7200 8mb buffer Antec Sonata case KDS XF-9b 19' flatscreen monitor Windows XP Home OEM Overclock the processor and this will run at 3.2 ghz. I already had the other parts, so I think this was all I got. A quick check shows you can get it all for about $800, with little or no shipping charges. You just need a keyboard, mouse, cd-rw or dvd+rw, and speakers. Most of the things like sound card, network card, firewire, usb, etc, are all integrated on the nvidia nforce2 motherboard, and they are excellent (especially sound), so you don't need to buy them separately. This is a big reason I like the nforce2 chipsets -- because so much is integrated you don't have to worry about driver conflicts and you don't have to buy and (worst of all) install them separately. Simplicity is extremely valuable. With regard to processor, some people like intel because it is the leader and many of its processors are more powerful than amd's. I go with AMD because they simply cost much less for equal performance and can be overclocked much more effectively. But really this generation's processors are all so fast the difference is not really noticable. For example, I can run my processor at 2.5 gz and then bump it up to 3.2 gz, and for the most part I really can't tell the difference between the two. For things like web browsing, email, word processing, etc, it's feels exactly the same. So don't worry too much about whether this is a little faster than that -- you probaby wouldn't notice anyway. It's probably true that the ATI GPUs presently are faster than the nvidia GPUs, but I went with nvidea because nvidia also makes the nforce2 motherboard chipset, so you are less likely to have conflicts going all nvidia. So with nvidia I have a single unified driver that handles I/O, video, sound, network, firewire, usb, everything. Whatever you do, one place you can save a lot of money is the hard drive. Typically you can get a 160gb hard drive for about $140. But if you watch the anandtech hot deals forum you will find places that put the drives on sale and with a rebate you can get the drive for about half price. I think I got mine for $74 shipping and tax included. And whatever you do, don't buy the fastest chip out there, it's just complete a waste of money. Go to the anandtech forums and you will get a ton of free help from the hardcore hardware experts. good luck.

10-28-2003, 11:14 PM	#69
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	I've been looking at motherboards today. Kind of overwhelming. I'm getting a sense that ASUS and ABIT are the leading Intel mobo makers, but it's been difficult for me to find easy to digest info on a number of boards. Does anyone know a site that ranks motherboards by categories on a one- or two-webpage chart? At most of the sites I've been to, each motherboard gets a write-up on a single webpage. This means wading through dozens of pages and writeups. Yuck. Or anyone have an Intel board recommendation for a P4 2.4C (or higher) CPU w 800MHz Hyper Threading? Florida: Your point on not needing to overclock for a while is an excellent one. I've noticed that a lot of people that build their own computers are really into squeezing every bit of performance out of their machines. Some pretty hardcore stuff. I've got to stay away from that game. No need to go there. Hell, I've been somewhat happy with how Morrowind runs on my P3 800MHz. I'll be in hog heaven with that game running on a P4. Airhog: Isn't water cooling kind of expensive ($200-$300 for a heatsink?), and geared towards really pushing the limits of your machine? Ryche: Way to go! I've started as well. I'm starting to drop things in a cart at Newegg. yabanci: Thanks for all the info. I was looking at the Sonata case too, but had noticed that quite a few people had complained about the flimsy front door breaking, and the way the rear fan mounts on the case (some kind of rubber dohickies that don't work well). What's your take on those comments? Other than those comments, it sure did look like that was a solid case. Also, regarding cases, I read an article today that talked about the new style of motherboards (BTX form instead of ATX form?) that will be coming out next year. According to the article, it represents a vastly new motherboard architecture, and will make existing cases obsolete (as far as upgrading goes) over the course of the next couple of years. In other words, when you go to upgrade your motherboard a year from now, you'll want to get a BTX motherboard instead of an ATX, and a BTX won't work in any case you buy today. So...the traditional idea of plunking down extra cash on a nice case that will last you through multiple upgrades doesn't apply any more. Not sure if there's something the author is missing. The article: BTX Motherboards

10-28-2003, 11:37 PM	#71
FloridaFringe H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla	The BTX Motherboards will be coming out next year but it isn't something that you will need to worry about for a while. With the setup that you are looking at building there will be several upgrades available to you that will last well into 2004 if not 2005. It will take you some time to max out your memory and the video cards that you will have to choose from over the next year will satisfy you plenty without worrying about upgrading your motherboard. This is part of the reason to make sure that you get a really good motherboard right from the start. That way you can focus on the fun stuff for the next couple of years. Once you are ready to rebuild another computer from scratch then it will all start over again with the BTX instead of ATX boards. In the end you will be able to sell your complete custom built computer with the case and all in order to re-coop some cash for the next build. It’s a beautiful cycle to get into and can yield some interesting results. The greatest comments that keep repeating themselves in this thread by many others and myself is the simple fact that many of the "advanced" alterations that you can make will not seem noticeable. You are looking at building a computer that will be on the verge of being completely awesome and the difference between overclocking a 2.4 to a 3 or getting a P5 instead of a P4 or a $500 video card over a $200 card just won't be substantial, for now. The point is that anything you put together now will seem like a godsend compared to what you have and therefore will impress you well beyond your expectations. Save your money and the stress by sticking to what you think will work well without going overboard. As far as comparing Motherboards goes, Abit has a Comparison Chart that lists all of their boards side by side so that you can see the differences. I am sure that Asus does the same if you look hard enough. The main thing that you want to do is to look for a FSB of 800/533 and it will probably state that it supports Hyper Threading. If you find a board that shows a FSB of 800/533/400 then it will require some research to find out if the 800 is emulated or a true FSB. In other words, several 533/400 boards can be pushed to 800mhz so they advertise them as such when in reality they are not a true 800mhz board. This is the same concept with memory as well and the main reason to stick with anything that is DDR3200 or better instead of settling for DDR2700 or less. Here is a link to the Abit comparisons: Link Also, check out Motherboards.com for some more info: Link If you like just post the Abit boards and the Asus boards that you are looking at within your price point and I will see if there is anything that I can offer in regards to specifics about each.

10-29-2003, 12:03 AM	#72
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	For hardware reports, I like to check out: www.extremetech.com (it's a pcmagazine site) and, of course, www.tomshardware.com SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

10-29-2003, 12:13 AM	#73
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	This is a stupid question, but do most decent motherboards have an Ethernet port on them now? Is that what the "1xCOM" signifies in the board's I/O features list? (meaning there is one 10/100 Ethernet connection on the board itself?) Florida: Thanks again for all the info. Kind of narrowed down the motherboard choice to one of the following three: ASUS P4P800 DELUXE ($120 something) ABIT IC7-G ($172) ABIT IC7 ($120 something) Leaning towards the ABIT IC7-G. It's about $50 more than the other two, but looks like it might be worth the extra cash. t this point, I'm basically throwing together the system I would like to buy, then plan on dropping down in quality if everything comes to more than $1500. I'd also like to avoid wasting money on something that just won't matter too, so I'd be interested in hearing if anyone thinks these boards are overkill. Sterling: Thanks! I'll go check those sites out. I'm getting a great list of sites here! I did notice a small button at Newegg that lets you view one vendor's products in a more user friendly list, so that helps considerably. ...Now I'm looking at RAM. I take it Corsair, Kensington, and Crucial are good? Should I be worried about getting RAM from a reputable company, or is all that matters the DDR3200 and the amount? __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review Last edited by Godzilla Blitz : 10-29-2003 at 12:15 AM.

10-29-2003, 12:31 AM	#74
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	This seems to be helpful regarding the ATI video cards. It's a the benchmark portion of an article from one of the sites Sterling suggested: ATI Benchmarks

10-29-2003, 01:32 AM	#77
kingnebwsu College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ohio	Well, my buddies put together my PC and it's up and running (kind of). Roomy had to sleep, otherwise I'd have XP. But I'm stuck with '98 tonight. Halo PC kept crashing on me, so I dunno what the deal is. More in a few days after I (hopefully) get everything straightened out.l

10-29-2003, 03:23 AM	#78
Tasan College Starter Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Houston, or there about	Crucial is the top of the line in memory pretty much. It is very important to match your ram to your motherboard too, so I'd get a list of "compatable" ram for the motherboard you are looking at. Most manufacturers will have one. Most motherboards do have ethernet ports on them, but he 1xCOM you are seeing is in reference to the serial port. __________________ 2011 Golden Scribes winner for best Interactive Dynasty

10-29-2003, 09:46 AM	#79
wishbone High School JV Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hillsboro OR	Crucial, Kensington and Corsair are all good brands, I personally buy Crucial but the other 2 brands generally have more aggressive timings so they can run faster. The ATI 9600SE is a neutered version of the other 9600s, it has a 64bit memory interface, other ATI cards are 128 bit. Get a 9600XT, it should be under $200, comes with a voucher for Half-life 2 and generally outperforms the nVidia cards in most directx 9 games, giving you a better card now and for the next couple years. Here's a comparison of the 9600s: http://www.ati.com/products/radeon96...o/compare.html Last edited by wishbone : 10-29-2003 at 09:47 AM.

11-03-2003, 10:12 PM	#81
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Thanks again for all the feedback on cases and memory. Got sidetracked for a few days with family stuff, but have managed to start piecing together components today. Friday I got a book: Build you own High-Performance Gamer's Mod PC. I looked at three different books, and this one was the most clearly written of the pack, with decent photos and straightforward instructions. Build Your Own PC, by Morris Rosenthal has a pretty cover, but the writing was trash: lots of typos and ambiguous instructions abound. The third book I looked at, The Dummies' Guide to Building a PC, was ok, but they crack too many stupid jokes, are too wordy, and have no photos, so I passed on that one. So far I've been pleased with the content of the book I got, but the real test will come when I start plugging things together. Also picked up a case today: Antec Sonata. Hope to have all the pieces in the next couple of weeks, but I'm in no hurry, so I might wait for good deals. Costs so far: Book: $1.29 (used credit card coupons worth $20) Bought at Border's Case: $127 (awaiting $20 rebate check). Bought at MicroCenter. This case would have been $106 shipped from Newegg, so I could have saved $1 and not have had to wait for a rebate check if I had purchased through them, but I wanted to get started now, and liked the idea of being able to pick an undamaged box off the shelf at MicroCenter. Total: $128.79 __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review

11-04-2003, 05:29 PM	#87
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Dola... Added more stuff today. So far I'm up to this... Video Card: $138.44, Radeon 9600 Pro (w Half Life 2 coupon) Book: $1.29, Build your own High-Performance... Case: $127.00, Antec Sonata (awaiting $20 rebate check). Motherboard: $154.99, ABIT IC7-G MAX2 System Software: $138.00, Windows XP Professional Other Software: $165.00, Office 2003 Professional Total to Date: $724.72 (awaiting $20 rebate) Got to pick up the CPU, sound card, RAM, and drives next. __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review

11-04-2003, 08:09 PM	#90
jefflackey n00b Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Midland, MI	I never used on-board sound until I built my last system - the Gigabyte board came with what was essentially Creative 5:1 sound chips. I figured I'd try it, and then if the sound was bad or problematic I could always add a sound card later. Never did add the sound card. I'd recommend at least trying the on board sound and saving your money - you can always add one in two seconds later if you need one. But I'm betting a dollar you'll decide you don't need one.

11-04-2003, 09:14 PM	#91
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Does anyone have an opinion on what type of DVD burners (+R or -R) are better? Been looking on the net and it's a lot like the blind leading the blind. I'd like to play DVDs in a PS2 or an X-box, or perhaps even in a standalone DVD player. Getting a combo DVD drive that does both + and - is too expensive for me now. Also, are there any advantages to having both a DVD player and a DVD burner on the same computer? Can you copy DVDs faster that way? jeff: I might hold off then and see how it goes. I currently have a Turtle Beach in my old computer, so I may just add a very cheap card to that one and move the Tutle Beach to the new one if I decide I need it. Thanks! __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review Last edited by Godzilla Blitz : 11-04-2003 at 09:19 PM.

11-04-2003, 09:34 PM	#92
jefflackey n00b Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Midland, MI	Godzilla - there's a good review of DVD burners up on extremetech.com. Just for comparison purposes, I had a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz in my previous computer, and the sound from the MB chipset is at least as good.

11-05-2003, 11:06 AM	#95
Wasabiak High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Beulah, ND	Have any of you thought about (or maybe you already do) building pc's and selling them on the side, or even for a living? I have been thinking about this for about a year now, due to my severe disinterest in my current job. What would the drawbacks be? Any thoughts?

11-05-2003, 11:19 AM	#97
Wasabiak High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Beulah, ND	What about pc repair? That and fixing cars are about the 2 things i know best. Looks like it's time to return to school.........

11-05-2003, 11:26 AM	#98
Wasabiak High School Varsity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Beulah, ND	Dola I didnt mean to hyjack the thread, sorry.

11-06-2003, 02:52 PM	#99
Godzilla Blitz College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	Ryche: Yes, we are close. I live in Golden Valley. Wasabiak: No problem on the thread jack. No clue on the computer job. I know I couldn't build computers on the side yet, but I would think it could make a decent "hobby-business" if you knew what you're doing. The tricky part would be support. If you build it for someone, they'll call you when something goes wrong, and depending on the customer, that could eat up a boatload of time. __________________ Current Blog Projects: Final Fantasy: Lost in Japanese Kaboom Review

11-06-2003, 07:03 PM	#100
FloridaFringe H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Fort Lauderdale Fla	It sounds as if everything is coming along nicely for you. I haven't been able to do much research on any motherboards but from what I have read it would appear as if you have made the right choice by going with the Abit IC7-G Max 2. It also appears as if you are really going with some high-end products in regards to the excellent case that you have bought as well as the DVD Burner that you are currently looking into. From what I am to understand you will be able to copy DVD much faster by having both a player and a separate burner but I have not personally tried this as of yet. Also, the video card production snafu was obviously good to you since getting a 9600 Pro at such a low price is never a bad thing. So far everything seems to be going well and you are obviously on the right track to building what will probably become the best computer that you will ever have. At least until you build the next one of course. My personal experience with building computers has lead me down the path of building them as inexpensively as possible and then upgrading whenever necessary. This translate into skipping on several added features on nearly every component in order to slim the costs down to a super low price point. For example, instead of the Abit IC7-G Max 2 I have chosen the Abit IS7, which has brought the overall cost down by $50. There are some really good features included on the IC7 that I personally would never take advantage off so the savings outweighs the need in my particular case. Furthermore, many people would recommend buying memory from one of the three leading brand name companies but I personally have never done this and prefer a different method. I simply start with the three least expensive memory modules that fit the criteria that are needed and start looking for reviews. This includes customer reviews as well as forum board threads that may point me in a certain direction. Once I am satisfied with a particular non-brand name memory type I usually find that they work just as well as the more expensive brand name types. There will always be faster memory than what someone currently has but the differences are usually not noticeable to me except in the department of overall costs. To this day I have yet to experience any problems with non-brand memory for any of the machines that I have built starting back in 1993, knock on wood. This can save nearly $40 or more per stick of memory, which really adds ups quickly when you need to buy them in pairs. At any rate, these are just my opinions on building machines that are only meant for my own personal use. The bottom line for me is to save as much money as possible knowing full well that a year or so down the road I will be doing the whole thing over again. In the meantime I can always upgrade to better memory, larger hard drive or even a better video card if necessary and components like DVD drives can always be added as well. Take my words for what they are worth and not necessary as some hard coded advice since the majority of builders may not agree. There are several philosophies of computer building and mine is a more minimalist approach to the hobby. In the end it all comes down to what you have as a starting budget and what you are willing to spend overall. Best of luck and keep on rolling. Here is what I bought last weekend to get my new project underway: Xtasy ATI 9600 AGP 8x 256mb Graphics Card ($150) SeaGate Barracuda 80gb 7200rpm Internal Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive ($50) Lite-On 52x32x52 Internal CD-RW Drive ($20) iConcepts 4D Optical Wheel Mouse (Free) iConcepts Multimedia Keyboard (Free) The rest will be ordered this weekend from NewEgg with the intensions of having everything by next weekend for the build process to begin. Keeping my fingers crossed.

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