Clarett Ruled Eligible For Draft

[clintl]

Well, that's the job of policy makers to decide where to draw the line. Given them enough of an exemption to antitrust laws to conduct a draft for competitive balance purposes is probably a reasonable exemption. But blatantly discriminating against legal adults based on age does not serve any legitimate competitive purpose.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

If this is the case, then sports is in for a world of hurt. The entire process of a 'draft' could be challenged.

That's why this case is interesting from an antitrust perspective. Whereas baseball is magically exempted from antitrust rules, the NBA and NFL have to tread carefully. There has always been talk of someone challenging the draft on antitrust grounds, but everyone has been afraid to do it because of the personal consequences for the person suing. I've always felt if someone litigated it to the end, the drafts would be struck down by the courts. I like drafts, so I would be sad, but overall I think it is the right thing to do.

We always talk about how rich and spoiled athletes are, but name another industry with offices all over the country where you have no choice where you initially work and where owners can trade your exclusive rights without your agreement. "In this weeks news, investment banker Johnny Stone was traded by Goldman Sachs in New York to a small kitchen utensil upstart in Omaha. Johnny doesn't have the cutlery skills yet, but he has real upside potential there." Athletes get a lot of perks, but they live in an industry with monopolies who have shady business practices. I'm NOT arguing that overall being a professional athelete isn't a sweet deal. I am arguing that the business practices used by owners are suspect legally and ethically. Just as the reserve clause was exploited for years in baseball to screw athletes, the draft is an impediment to a free market in sports.

I like the draft, but I fear it must go sooner or later.

Of course, collective bargaining complicates the picture a bit, but I've never been a fan of a union that bargains the rights of prospective members to their detriment (like the NBA union agreeing to a rookie salary cap which didn't hurt current members).

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Fritz

the avg attendance at an international league game this year was 6,794. While baseball is not football, I think similar figures would hold true.


http://www.ilbaseball.com/attendance.html

What does the Arena League draw? It seems to me a decent quality minor league playing on a full field could be expected to do as well as that. If it's below 10,000, then maybe I'm wrong.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Fritz

the avg attendance at an international league game this year was 6,794. While baseball is not football, I think similar figures would hold true.


http://www.ilbaseball.com/attendance.html

Those are better numbers than the WNBA gets...

I think it could work. If the Arena league can hang around for 10+ years, a minor league for the NFL has a pretty good shot.

The NBA should do the same thing.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Fritz

the avg attendance at an international league game this year was 6,794. While baseball is not football, I think similar figures would hold true.


http://www.ilbaseball.com/attendance.html

apples/oranges. Your talking about less games for football which would at least increase average attendance over 10,000 (not to mention it is currently a much more popular sport). The average attendance at Arena league games last year was over 12,000.

[sooner333]

If Oklahoma City can average 9,000-10,000 for a Double-A hockey team, then I would say that they could support a minor league football team? Now, I don't want a minor league football, but it could be supported. Who knows, maybe Oklahoma City wouldn't support it because they wouldn't want to see their players (OU and OSU players) being taken into their league prematurely. Oklahoma City is still a college area first, despite CHL hockey, AAA baseball, and afl2 football (although, they do have a nice, new arena).

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by clintl

What does the Arena League draw? It seems to me a decent quality minor league playing on a full field could be expected to do as well as that. If it's below 10,000, then maybe I'm wrong.

Average total Arena League attendance:

1998: 10,594
1999: 10,014
2000: 9,619
2001: 9,176
2002: 9,958
2003: 11,397

NBC seemed to help in 2003...

[cthomer5000]

I think it's worth noting that Arena also plays a different style of football. I don't know if a "NFL rules" minor league would do as well. Especially since it would now basically have to go head-to-head with Arena football.

[Ksyrup]

Here's a link to excerpts from the ruling:

hxxp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/02/05/sports1235EST0344.DTL

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by sabotai

No, Child Labor Laws...16 year olds, I think so.

Freddy Adu

Seeing as how he couldn't even last 3 weeks in college without crying that he's injured (which he did every day), how does Clarett expect to make it through a 16 game schedule.

[Ksyrup]

Lame:

"This case has progressed rapidly, virtually rushing toward the goal line because of the imminence of the 2004 draft."
"While, ordinarily, the best offense is a good defense, none of these defenses hold the line."

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Lame:

"This case has progressed rapidly, virtually rushing toward the goal line because of the imminence of the 2004 draft."
"While, ordinarily, the best offense is a good defense, none of these defenses hold the line."

That judge is a regular John Madden...

[GrantDawg]

I finally found the final number for last year’s league. It was 11,397, which was up 15% over the previous year (which had risen 8.8% over the year before).

Looks to me like teams filled more directly by the NFL with better talent would beat those numbers.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I finally found the final number for last year’s league. It was 11,397, which was up 15% over the previous year (which had risen 8.8% over the year before).

Looks to me like teams filled more directly by the NFL with better talent would beat those numbers.

Could have saved yourself the trouble and just read my post 6 prior...

[Fritz]

Arena football is apples/orages to minor league football as well.

1.) they play indoors
2.) they play offseason from the pros
3.) it is a completely different game

Of course, the 10,000 figure clint threw out means nothing. I think he was just saying that minor league football could be viable. I think it would have a hard time doing so, at least as a fall sport.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Seeing as how he couldn't even last 3 weeks in college without crying that he's injured (which he did every day), how does Clarett expect to make it through a 16 game schedule.

That's for the NFL's scouting braintrusts to decide. The point is, he should be able to make himself available, and if they say no thanks, then too bad for him.

If this ulitmately is upheld, I wonder if the NCAA, desperate to keep talent in the game, will allow guys who declare themelves eligible for the draft, but who get drafted in low rounds or not at all, to come back to school. I believe in basketball, once you declare, you're done right? But in baeball, the rule is different, isn't it (I recall Mark Prior being drafted by the Yankees, but he obviously went to school)? I could see then treating football differently, since it's the cash cow. Especially for the first few years, when nno one will really know how the NFL teams will react to a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds entering the draft.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Could have saved yourself the trouble and just read my post 6 prior...

I was in the proccess of posting when you posted.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I was in the proccess of posting when you posted.

I'm sensitive about my stats...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I think he was just saying that minor league football could be viable. I think it would have a hard time doing so, at least as a fall sport.

I completely agree, as far as playing in the fall. But a spring league in the southeast - I could see that fly.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I completely agree, as far as playing in the fall. But a spring league in the southeast - I could see that fly.

Especially with the financial power of the NFL to back it.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Especially with the financial power of the NFL to back it.

Isn't that what NFL Europe is with the added benefit of expanding the game internationally?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Isn't that what NFL Europe is with the added benefit of expanding the game internationally?

Nope. It is too limited in the number of players that can be sent and the talent level of the play. Many players will not go, and the number of American players are severaly limited. It is helpful, but no where near what a true state-side minor league could do.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Nope. It is too limited in the number of players that can be sent and the talent level of the play. Many players will not go, and the number of American players are severaly limited. It is helpful, but no where near what a true state-side minor league could do.

Actually I think the reverse is true. NFL Europe teams are required to carry a minumun # of international players to offset the mostly American roster.

Either way I don't think the talent pool is big enough overall to support much of a minor league system. Football is very different as it has the shortest player lifespan. Guys who make it their life aren't going to toil in the "minors" for long as a rule. That and the fact you need so many guys to field a football team make it a daunting task if you want to put out a quality product.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That's for the NFL's scouting braintrusts to decide. The point is, he should be able to make himself available, and if they say no thanks, then too bad for him.

I guess what I flirt with earlier in this thread is that an adult's age is considered an acceptable criteria for a number of things. One of those things happens to be elected office, which one could argue is employment.

[Easy Mac]

They do have a minor league, its college.

And whoever said guys want to go to college to play are kidding themselves... those players would jump at the chance to play in the NFL rather than go to college.

[Ksyrup]

There have been guys in the AFL for years. I think guys who would otherwise spend 5-7 years in the AFL would jump at the chance to play in an NFL minor league, on the off-chance they could get intvited to training camp. In fact, I think the AFL would be the biggest loser - although a different game, they'd lose a large chunk of talent to an NFL minor league.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

There have been guys in the AFL for years. I think guys who would otherwise spend 5-7 years in the AFL would jump at the chance to play in an NFL minor league, on the off-chance they could get intvited to training camp. In fact, I think the AFL would be the biggest loser - although a different game, they'd lose a large chunk of talent to an NFL minor league.

You can play in the AFL for years since it's a much different game. I'm sure guys would jump at it but I'm not sure the sum of those guys translates into interesting football.

Most of those guys do get a shot at training camp at some point and most haven't made it for a reason. Sure you'll get the occasional Tommy Maddox or something but it's way different than baseball...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Fritz

I guess what I flirt with earlier in this thread is that an adult's age is considered an acceptable criteria for a number of things. One of those things happens to be elected office, which one could argue is employment.

But elected office is employment by the federal government. To my knowledge, the federal government is not subject to anti-trust laws. The NFL is a collective of private organizations which seeks to enforce certain barriers to entry into its business by prospective employees. So, I don't see the comparison.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That's for the NFL's scouting braintrusts to decide. The point is, he should be able to make himself available, and if they say no thanks, then too bad for him.

If this ulitmately is upheld, I wonder if the NCAA, desperate to keep talent in the game, will allow guys who declare themelves eligible for the draft, but who get drafted in low rounds or not at all, to come back to school. I believe in basketball, once you declare, you're done right? But in baeball, the rule is different, isn't it (I recall Mark Prior being drafted by the Yankees, but he obviously went to school)? I could see then treating football differently, since it's the cash cow. Especially for the first few years, when nno one will really know how the NFL teams will react to a bunch of 18 and 19 year olds entering the draft.

The difference with the baseball draft is that you don't formally declare for it. You either get drafted out of high school and sign, get drafted and decide to go to college, or just go to college. When you become 21, you can be redrafted. As long as you don't sign with an agent, you can go back.

IMO, the reason the NFL lost, and will lose the appeal, is because they didn't choose an age, they chose an arbitrary figure. You could be 3 years out of high school and be 19, 20, 21, 22. Baseball has a set age (21), basketball has a set age, the NFL doesn't. You know they will change the rule as soon as possible.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by General Mike

The difference with the baseball draft is that you don't formally declare for it. You either get drafted out of high school and sign, get drafted and decide to go to college, or just go to college. When you become 21, you can be redrafted. As long as you don't sign with an agent, you can go back.

IMO, the reason the NFL lost, and will lose the appeal, is because they didn't choose an age, they chose an arbitrary figure. You could be 3 years out of high school and be 19, 20, 21, 22. Baseball has a set age (21), basketball has a set age, the NFL doesn't. You know they will change the rule as soon as possible.

Baseball gives people whose high school class has graduated the opportunity to compete for employment based on their skills before they go to college. Football does not, it automatically excludes them for three years. That is the fundamental difference between how football and baseball does things. Plus, baseball has an antitrust exemption, football does not.

Basketball does not have a set age, actually, it is merely high school class graduating. Stern wants to put a minimum age of 20 on the books, but the union is fighting it.

[henry296]

A NBA prospect did challenge the draft on anti-trust grounds in the early 1980s. I belive it was Leon Wood. He was drafted and then sued for free agency claiming anti-trust. The draft was upheld because the draft was agreed to under the Collective Bargaining process. Maybe one of our lawyer friends knows more, but I read the ruling in a sports law class I took in college.

Todd

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Basketball does not have a set age, actually, it is merely high school class graduating. Stern wants to put a minimum age of 20 on the books, but the union is fighting it.

I thought they had it set at the age of 18. There was some big thing this year because Darko wanted to play, but he wouldn't turn 18 until after the draft. Tehy made an exemption for him.

[kingfc22]

I have no problem with allowing basketball players enter early because today's NBA is purely based on athleticsm and not a lot of skill. But, football is a totally different story. Clarett hasn't played for a year and in his freshman year he was hurt numerous times. How does he expect to make a team and accept the punishment of grown men knocking him silly.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

I thought they had it set at the age of 18. There was some big thing this year because Darko wanted to play, but he wouldn't turn 18 until after the draft. Tehy made an exemption for him.

The situation with Darko was that he'd be 18 by the draft, but at the time he had to declare for the draft he was only 17. I believe he wound up getting the exemption was because of the fact he would be 18 by the draft.

[NoMyths]

I also wonder about the outcry that will follow the first 18-year old getting paralyzed during a game.

[General Mike]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Baseball gives people whose high school class has graduated the opportunity to compete for employment based on their skills before they go to college. Football does not, it automatically excludes them for three years. That is the fundamental difference between how football and baseball does things. Plus, baseball has an antitrust exemption, football does not.

Fine, then let some high school idiots declare for the draft. They won't get drafted.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

I dunno. There are plenty of markets that support that many people for *high school* games. I think the NFL could find 32 towns to put minor league organizations in. It would certainly solve a lot of problems. I mean, nobody complains about corruption in college baseball, because the athletes there actually want to go to school. If they don't, they play in the minors.

Then again, no one cares about College Baseball except for LSU fans.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by General Mike

Fine, then let some high school idiots declare for the draft. They won't get drafted.

Sadly some will.

I actually think that the NFL's rule was one that was clearly violated this class of people's legal rights, but was also in their best interests. I am not happy about it, but have long felt it was an inevitability that this rule would be struck down.

I had forgotten about the NBA's 18 year old rule. They do require one's high school class to have graduated, regardless of age (i.e an 18 year old HS junior may not declare). But, I think the 18 year old thing is an issue of one not legally being able to sign a contract in this country until the age of 18.

[Fritz]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

But elected office is employment by the federal government. To my knowledge, the federal government is not subject to anti-trust laws. The NFL is a collective of private organizations which seeks to enforce certain barriers to entry into its business by prospective employees. So, I don't see the comparison.

You are telling me that it is not violating any laws, which is what I was saying.

I don't know anything about anti trust laws. What I do know is that we, as a people, have established that age beyond majority matters. At some point beyond 18 you become wiser, more responsible, or more able in some manner. We feel this is such a core truth that it is clearly written into one of our most basic documents. We support the concept as evidenced in gun and alcohol laws. We allow private ventures to establish age as a criteria for goods and services. It seems a bit odd to me that on hand you can have a structure that uses age as a criteria, and on the other hand you can say that age should not be a factor.

[ISiddiqui]

It's time for some Congressmen to get on the floor and get Football an anti-trust exemption. Maybe Kerry can do it and score some votes from college football fans .

[HornedFrog Purple]

That and a college football playoff and I am handing out Kerry bumper stickers.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by Noble_Platypus

The fact remains that there are other leagues he can play in. If a company deems I dont meet their criteria to work for them but other lower paying companies will hire me for the same job with them, can I sue that since the other places arent offering as much money that the first place has to let me in?

Yeah, but imagine it's not one company, but 47 of 50 companies and they are the only ones with access to markets where you can earn a lot of money.

It's about sufficient dominance over the marketplace. Because the NFL has a huge share of the pro football market, any restrictive rules necessarily restrict competition. Clarett is the perfect example - he can't get the kind of money available in the NFL anywhere else.

Here is an example. You own a car and it's yellow (and you cannot paint it). You want to sell it for as much as it's worth. Now, every used car dealer in America gets together and AGREES that no one will buy yellow cars from people. Now assume that car dealers are the only ones who can sell used cars for big dough (this is a valid assumption because the NFL is the only one who can sell high quality football talent for huge revenue). There are other consumers out there who will buy your yellow car, but they won't pay much because the market for yellow cars is now very small and consumers can't pay nearly as much.

Now is the rule against buying yellow cars fair to you now that you basically get nothing for your yellow car?? And what about all the other yellow car owners??

It is amazing how many people think allowing Clarett to play in the NFL is horribly bad and a rule preventing it should stay when none of us would stand for such a rule in other fields, and especially in the very field you work in. Suppose you are a computer expert and were told "well, there are a number of big computer companies out there waiting to pay you millions of dollars but you can't go work for them for at least 3 years; because we think it would be bad for your brain." Most people would be like "thanks, I think I can make my own decisions on what is bad or good for me, I am an adult by the way."

I am sure there are better analogies out there, but that is all I could come up with for now.

I think it is bad mostly for college football because the players who truly are good enough to play in the NFL right away will not be playing in college.

[The_herd]

USA Today polled the High School players at the All-American game and there were some interesting results. I don't have the paper anymore, but when players were asked whether or not they could picture themselves in the NFL next season instead of college, there several (as in about 10) that replied they could and that they were watching the Clarett case closely. However, when all the players were asked whether they were pulling for Clarett to win, I think around 75% were against him.

So there is a number of players that would have strongly considered going pro from high school this season, but the majority seem to realize they don't belong in the NFL yet.

[Leonidas]

I wouldn't count Clarett in the NFL just yet. I suspect the NFL might know a thing or two about this whole gambling deal that hasn't been revealed yet. How did ESPN even know to make this investigation. I wouldn't put it past the NFL to have already done a thorough investigation of Clarett's links to gambling and to have tipped ESPN off. If there is more to that story then the NFL may be holding on to a sizeable trump card to keep him out of the league.

[sooner333]

Suppose you are a computer expert and were told "well, there are a number of big computer companies out there waiting to pay you millions of dollars but you can't go work for them for at least 3 years; because we think it would be bad for your brain." Most people would be like "thanks, I think I can make my own decisions on what is bad or good for me, I am an adult by the way."

Of course, a computer company offering me millions of dollars would laugh in my face when I said I didn't have a college diploma. I know there are self-made non-high school grads, but come on, we're comparing two different things. But, I don't think it will matter all that much, except maybe some true sophomores coming out of the draft. Or the occassional true freshman.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Leonidas

I wouldn't count Clarett in the NFL just yet. I suspect the NFL might know a thing or two about this whole gambling deal that hasn't been revealed yet. How did ESPN even know to make this investigation. I wouldn't put it past the NFL to have already done a thorough investigation of Clarett's links to gambling and to have tipped ESPN off. If there is more to that story then the NFL may be holding on to a sizeable trump card to keep him out of the league.

Won't stop the rest of them...


Thursday, February 5, 2004
Stay of order likely won't come in time

---

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com

Given the potential timeframe for ongoing legal maneuvers, former Ohio State tailback Maurice Clarett almost certainly will be included in the 2004 NFL draft pool, NFL executive vice president and chief in-house counsel Jeff Pash acknowledged Thursday afternoon.


And he could potentially be joined by dozens of other underclass players who might feel they are ready for the leap from the college game to the NFL.


About the only way to preclude Clarett from being eligible, Pash explained, is for the original court in the case or an appeals court to issue a stay on the ruling made Thursday by Judge Shira A. Scheindlin of the U.S. District Court in New York. Pash said he was not yet certain the league will even seek a stay -- an option that is being discussed by top NFL officials -- but that a determination will be made quickly.


Pash did reiterate that the NFL definitely will appeal Scheindlin's landmark ruling "fairly soon." But an appeals court probably would not address Scheindlin's order to include Clarett in the 2004 draft until after the April 24-25 lottery is conducted.


"It is unlikely we would get a decision from an appeals court between now and (the 2004) draft," Pash conceded. "If there is not a stay ... he would be likely to be in the draft."


Pash said the NFL will now have to re-open the application period -- during which players can petition for inclusion in the 2004 draft -- to comply with Scheindlin's ruling. A deadline for that has not been determined but, in theory, the NFL could now face a veritable flood of applications from players who were not eligible under existing league guidelines.


Pash also believes that the annual predraft combine, which commences in Indianapolis on Feb. 19, is prepared to include Clarett among its invitees. The combine is not officially a league function and instead is administered by the two scouting groups to which most NFL teams subscribe.


Asked if he felt teams might conspire to ignore Clarett, or to treat him differently than the more conventional candidates, Pash said he doesn't believe that will be the case. "I have not the slightest doubt he will be treated like any other player," Pash said. "If he can play, he will be on the field every weekend."


Pash allowed he was "pretty surprised" by the 71-page opinion Scheindlin handed down. He said that there is "such a substantial body of law" upholding antitrust exemptions for sports leagues, particularly in the New York courts, that he felt the NFL was on very solid ground in its arguments to Clarett's petition. He said the league contends Scheindlin was "erroneous" in ruling the NFL's draft rules are not the product of collective bargaining.


As noted several times by ESPN.com in recent months, the NFL draft guidelines are not explicitly addressed in the current collective bargaining agreement. Pash held, however, that the NFL Players Association accepted the league's constitution and bylaws in 1993, as an adjunct part of the collective bargaining agreement.


Pash insisted that the NFL will ultimately prevail in the appeals process. But he also pointed out that, unless the NFL can reverse the events of Thursday, there will be some players who apply for the draft who clearly don't belong in the league and who will be substantially harmed by their naivete.


He noted that there will be some players who, erroneously feeling prepared for a jump to the NFL, will lose scholarships and "their only opportunity" for a college education.


"We will not be the big losers here," Pash said. "It's not a good thing for us. But there are people who will be affected more than us and in a more adverse way."


Len Pasquarelli is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

[yabanci]

Originally Posted by digamma

Has anyone seen a link to the text of the judge's ruling yet?

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/n...fl20504opn.pdf

[Craptacular]

This really sucks. I am a big believer in allowing professional sports leagues to set their own rules for competition.

[SunDancer]

So if a league sets a age limit, then they can be successfully sued.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

Originally Posted by sooner333

Of course, a computer company offering me millions of dollars would laugh in my face when I said I didn't have a college diploma. I know there are self-made non-high school grads, but come on, we're comparing two different things. But, I don't think it will matter all that much, except maybe some true sophomores coming out of the draft. Or the occassional true freshman.

I am not sure I understand your counterpoint. Of course, my analogy assumes you actually are a qualified computer expert for whatever reason, because that is why the companies are waiting to pay you millions.

Now if you saying simply Clarett is not that good and won't get that much money, fine; but one day there will be a guy with enough talent after 1 year of college to play in the NFL and make millions but would have been prevented from doing so. That is why the rule was illegal.