What is a Christian?

[Cap Ologist]

Originally Posted by Tigercat

As far as #1, I don't know how many modern day christians take the life of Jesus, as told to us by the Bible, and get that Jesus is GOD*. Just because it is referenced that Jesus is part of God(as we all are), and Jesus is the Son of God(as we all are in various ways) does not mean that under Biblical interpretation that Jesus is GOD.

It would appear to me that Jesus can save us of all our sins through his teaching and his life without being GOD.

I guess thats why I never understood the whole "Do you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior" thing. If I am going to be a Christian, I will except Jesus's life and example as my "Savior," but judging from what Jesus HIMSELF said, I don't think Jesus, whatever type of holy spirit he was, would want to be my personal GOD above what we know as GOD dating back to the Old Testiment..?

God by most monotheistic traditions is in and of all things, why is it that many Christians see Jesus as the one to be worshiped as THE GOD? Someone who takes this viewpoint of faith care to explain it to me? It just doesn't make sense to me as Jesus himself would seem not to have wanted such a thing through his own actions/words.

*note the reason why I have GOD written the way it is is because if one is to say they "accept Jesus as my personal lord and savior" and say that in a way that it is the most important part of their faith in God, than one must be saying that Jesus is the ultimate form of God for them.

good post, just wanted to answer the question of whether Jesus could save us without being God, and the answer would be no.

I think at the core of one's perception of God would be perfection. I mean who would want to worship someone who screws up like we do. So, if we start with the assumption that God is perfect, then we have to define what sin is.

Sin isn't bad because it makes us look bad, sin is horrible because it is having the choice between doing what is good, right and brings eternal pleasure or what is bad, wrong or forsaking eternal pleasure for short-term pleasure. So, when we sin, we are basically stating to God that we know better than He does and that we don't value the things that He values.

So, how bad is it when we reject the things that God values? Well, to the degree that God is perfect, it is equally heinous. So, sin against a perfect God is an incredibly heinous act.

How can we be made right with this perfect God? It can't be by our works or deeds or thoughts or wishes. We need a substitute who can take our place and offer an incredibly perfect sacrifice to atone for the incredibly perfect judgement that we deserve.

The only way that the infinite wrath of God can be appeased is by the sacrifice of God the Son, Jesus. It is because Jesus was one person with perfect human and divine natures that He is able to qualify as the perfect sacrifice to make atonement.

If Jesus isn't God, then He doesn't qualify as the perfect sacrifice because many times in Scripture He claimed to be God. He would be a disgraced liar, not a perfect loving savior.

Hope this helps.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

wow, i think that's the first time in a long time that i've heard someone say there is an easy way to think about the trinity. not picking on you or anything, but i'm taking a class on the trinity, and well, from all the monster volumes that i've read (or supposed to have read ), whenever someone tries to simplify the trinity, they usually end up making it more difficult. it's pretty much incomprehensible to understand how there can be one God existing in 3 equal persons from eternity at the same time.

I think the question might be: Are there three distinct and individual personalities with a Devine nature? I think that the Bible answers yes, although the United Pentacostals would disagree.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

good post, just wanted to answer the question of whether Jesus could save us without being God, and the answer would be no.

I think at the core of one's perception of God would be perfection. I mean who would want to worship someone who screws up like we do. So, if we start with the assumption that God is perfect, then we have to define what sin is.

Sin isn't bad because it makes us look bad, sin is horrible because it is having the choice between doing what is good, right and brings eternal pleasure or what is bad, wrong or forsaking eternal pleasure for short-term pleasure. So, when we sin, we are basically stating to God that we know better than He does and that we don't value the things that He values.

So, how bad is it when we reject the things that God values? Well, to the degree that God is perfect, it is equally heinous. So, sin against a perfect God is an incredibly heinous act.

How can we be made right with this perfect God? It can't be by our works or deeds or thoughts or wishes. We need a substitute who can take our place and offer an incredibly perfect sacrifice to atone for the incredibly perfect judgement that we deserve.

The only way that the infinite wrath of God can be appeased is by the sacrifice of God the Son, Jesus. It is because Jesus was one person with perfect human and divine natures that He is able to qualify as the perfect sacrifice to make atonement.

If Jesus isn't God, then He doesn't qualify as the perfect sacrifice because many times in Scripture He claimed to be God. He would be a disgraced liar, not a perfect loving savior.

Hope this helps.

The only problem here is what would you define as 'good and right'? This is highly influenced by one's culture and his enviroment while growing up.

I am, well... was a Roman Catholic, but I have recently been disenfranchised by general religion. Religion in itself is selfish, cruel, restrictive and bigotted.

I now, however, hold much more stock in Faith. Faith on the other hand, is something deeper... faith is something that resides deep inside you... the faith of something higher... that we have a certain purpose, that we're here for a reason.

I am now avoiding religion, although I certainly have no problem with what other people's religions are... afterall, we all have our own belief systems, right? But I think that wether you call him God, Allah, Karma... whatever... I do think that there is something...or someone... much, much higher at work in our midst.

It's all a matter of FAITH, gentlemen.

[Sharpieman]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

The only problem here is what would you define as 'good and right'? This is highly influenced by one's culture and his enviroment while growing up.

I am, well... was a Roman Catholic, but I have recently been disenfranchised by general religion. Religion in itself is selfish, cruel, restrictive and bigotted.

I now, however, hold much more stock in Faith. Faith on the other hand, is something deeper... faith is something that resides deep inside you... the faith of something higher... that we have a certain purpose, that we're here for a reason.

I am now avoiding religion, although I certainly have no problem with what other people's religions are... afterall, we all have our own belief systems, right? But I think that wether you call him God, Allah, Karma... whatever... I do think that there is something...or someone... much, much higher at work in our midst.

It's all a matter of FAITH, gentlemen.

I couldn't agree more with the faith part of your comments. However, I don't believe religion is a horrible thing. Religion has never been the problem; it is the interpretation of religion, which has caused many problems. Those who use God's name as an excuse to do horrible things may have believe in a certain religion, but they certainly don't have faith. Religion is like a culture, the vast majority of people never picked their culture or religion, they were just born in a certain area and grew up with that religion or culture. What I'm saying is; it doesn't matter whether you go to a church, a temple or a mosque, we all pray to the same God. Furthermore, your faith isn't measured by how much you talk about how you love God, but it is measured by how you live your life. It is not a coincidence that there is not a large variation in what different religions say is right or wrong.

[revrew]

[quote=Tigercat]As far as #1, I don't know how many modern day christians take the life of Jesus, as told to us by the Bible, and get that Jesus is GOD*.

It would appear to me that Jesus can save us of all our sins through his teaching and his life without being GOD.

why is it that many Christians see Jesus as the one to be worshiped as THE GOD? Someone who takes this viewpoint of faith care to explain it to me? It just doesn't make sense to me as Jesus himself would seem not to have wanted such a thing through his own actions/words.
QUOTE]

Though this is a bunny trail on the thread as a whole (hey, no prob), since you asked for an explanation, I'll bite. "Why Jesus as THE GOD?" in a list:

1. Cap Ologist already hit on the need for a GOD sacrifice, not a human sacrifice, so I'll just let that stand as is.
2. John Chap 1:1 establishes John's belief that Jesus was THE GOD - "In the beginning was the Word (later established as code for Jesus)...the Word was with God, and was God."
3. As mentioned above, Jesus called himself the GOD of the Old Testament when he said, "Before Abraham was, I AM." That's why immediately afterward, people picked up stones to stone him for blashphemy. He claimed to be THE GOD.
4. Isaiah 9:6 prophecied the Messiah would be both God and Man, a "child" born who would also be "Mighty God, Everlasting Father".
5. In Philippians 2:1 Paul refers to Jesus as "being in very nature GOD."
6. I know I'm forgetting some "proof texts;" I don't have a textbook in front of me, though I do recall the book of Hebrews establishes this as well.
7. Round about year 400, the formative creed of the Chrisitian church established Jesus' divinity. The same creed is said today in many churches, where Christians affirm, Jesus as "True God from True God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father."
8. As for "how many modern Chrisitians," I'm not George Barna with a great polling company behind me, but at least here in Iowa, the notion that Jesus is THE GOD is the most commonly held viewpoint. It is considered the very essence of the doctrine of the trinity.

The early, post-apostolic (in other words, the apostles and Paul were dead) church argued about this. There were many heresies that erupted in the early days, and the need for truth compelled the church to argue out the various positions. When the dust settled, however, the church agreed with John and Paul and the writer of Hebrews: When Jesus said he was GOD, he meant it.

[G-Man]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

I think it's a combination of all four. I believe that Jesus was the Son of God, that He lived a perfect live, God killed Him on the cross to pay the penalty for my sins, and on the third day He rose and lives today.

I'm also what you would probably consider a moralist. I try to live my life in a way that maximizes true pleasure that can't be found in the empty ways of this world, and since I'm not perfect, a lot of times I come across as hypocritical. Christians by no means have a monopoly on hypocrisy, go sit in a football stadium and you'll be surrounded by hypocrites who flipflop between cheering and booing.

As a Christian, one of the cornerstone beliefs is that Jesus is the only way to get to Heaven or to have eternal life. This is a harsh truth, but so is gravity. Why should gravity get to make me stay attached to earth, maybe I just want to float around a little. Truth, at it's very definition, is intolerant because two competing ideas can't be true.

The Bible urges us to pray for our leaders so that we may live in peace. Christ compels us to live our lives for His glory. Probably one of my biggest gripes about my fellow Christians is how we view politics and government. There are too many Christians who believe that if they get Congress to pass a law then America will be changed. I'm a bigger believer that the way to cause change is not to reduce the supply, but to reduce the demand.

Finally, I wish all Christians would live lives of love, hope and faith and would be willing to step out of their comfort zones and make Christ known as the treasure which is worth selling everything you own to obtain it.

So, long ramble, but I think a Christian is a conglomeration of all of those perceptions.

Well said!

[sachmo71]

I'm just glad Christians are no longer lion food.

[Blackadar]

Here's the question I'd like to see answered.

Is a Christian, on average, better than someone who's not?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I'm just glad Christians are no longer lion food.

Yeah, the lions have switched to a diet that is lower in trans-fatty acids.

[rkmsuf]

This would fit the definition

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Here's the question I'd like to see answered.

Is a Christian, on average, better than someone who's not?

If you are talking about hard drinkin', probably not.
But in hanging out in groups, they are the tops.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Here's the question I'd like to see answered.

Is a Christian, on average, better than someone who's not?

In and of himself, no. However, a true practicing Christian who has been born-again is operating under the Will of God with the full assisstance of the Holy Spirit, and as such cannot help but lead a more exemplary life than someone with a fallen nature not following God.

This is the whole point of living for Christ in this life, to lead others to Him through outward works. In the same way the Jews of the Old Testament were to be the light of the living God unto the rest of the world in leading them to Him (and failing miserably, as many Christians probably do.)

[Cap Ologist]

Depends on how you define better. I'd have to say that Christians aren't better than others. Christians are people with messed up lives, broken dreams and hopes for a better life, much like everybody else. The distinction between Christians and non-Christians is that Christians have hope that God is in control, that He's working all things together for their good so that through out their lifetime they are being made to be more like who Christ is.

[revrew]

Between Bubba's and Cap's answer, I vote for Cap.

And you do have to define what you mean by "better." You mean more moral? Well, then, you have to define whose morality. God's or yours. But even then, Cap's answer is still close to the meat of it.

The thing to understand is that Christianity is a transformative relationship. In other words, growing more like Christ as we follow him and are indwelt by his spirit is a process. The other thing to figure is that--if Christ's experience in winning converts is any kind of norm--you might expect that "good" folks won't typically convert to Christianity because life is pretty well put together for them. You would expect a lot of people converting to Christianity who are hurt, poor, bitter, angry, messed up (I would have fit that definition), as Jesus said of himself, "It isn't the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick." It takes time for ANY convert to grow, learn, be transformed. And if newer Christians are often from the dregs of society, one would NOT expect Christians to behave "better" than non-Christians, but almost the opposite. (Then you have all the preacher-types who convince people being a Christian doesn't require any commitment or growth. These have created whole generations of "baby Christians," people who may have been Christians for 30 years, but act like they've only grown for about 30 seconds).

So "better" is a difficult term to use, and you certainly can't use it with ALL Christians. I would say this, though:

"The heart of a man is measured in humility. Give me a man willing to be taught over a man proud of his lessons learned any day. And if that humble man is learning at the feet of a teacher like Christ, then truly I have found a worthwhile companion."

[Bubba Wheels]

Well, lots of semantics at play here. I'll just say that my statement is based on God's plan to make the world a better place THRU people doing His will on earth. So those doing His will are obviously pleasing God, those who don't are obviously not. "No one is righteous, no not one, for ALL have fallen short."

[Cap Ologist]

Is God's plan really to make the world a better place though? Not trying to start an argument, but I think that God's plan is more about building His heavenly kingdom. Scripture tells us that at some point, there will be a new heaven and new earth, and while I'm by no means an expert on prophecy or Revelation, it seems the goal of God's work is to redeem people and bring them into His eternal presence.

I'm not debating that doing the will of God is pleasing or not to Him, I think it's obvious that it is, but I don't think the end of God's design is for an improved earth based on man's accomplishments. Again, we may just be off on semantics and how we are defining things.

[Bubba Wheels]

Originally Posted by Cap Ologist

Is God's plan really to make the world a better place though? Not trying to start an argument, but I think that God's plan is more about building His heavenly kingdom. Scripture tells us that at some point, there will be a new heaven and new earth, and while I'm by no means an expert on prophecy or Revelation, it seems the goal of God's work is to redeem people and bring them into His eternal presence.

I'm not debating that doing the will of God is pleasing or not to Him, I think it's obvious that it is, but I don't think the end of God's design is for an improved earth based on man's accomplishments. Again, we may just be off on semantics and how we are defining things.

Well, I think that what we may be running into here is the defining the word 'better', from both man's view and God's view. As you already know, not the same thing "My ways are not your ways, and My thoughts are not your thoughts." So your point is well taken.

[Kevin]

I wish the answer was #4. Unfortunately for almost all religions, the original ideals have been hijacked to further goals of individuals or nation states. They really don't give a rats ass about higher ideals.

Probably the same analogy can be attributed to every signifiant religion in the world. I find that religion for the past 800 or so years has existed primarily to keep the poor from revolting against the power brokers. The reason there are so many religions is that the leaders needed a separate god from their enemiies in order to inspire their slaves and peasants to sacrifice themselves to the greater glory of a god, and even more to the greater riches of the ruler.

That's not to say there aren't lots of true and good followers of those original ideals. It's just when religion becomes organized, then power and corruption get in the way. That's just the sinning nature of humans, I guess.

[WSUCougar]

Personally, I think one of the great tragedies of Christianity is that it has been twisted and warped by religion(s) from its original intent. So often, people are given the impression that being a Christian is some kind of “us vs. them” scenario. This is in large part due to religions attacking other religions, beliefs, lifestyles, etc., throughout history. It’s the “holier than thou” aspect that turns so many people away.

Bottom line in my opinion is that we all start out “unsaved.” I’m not talking about baptism or anything similar in terms of religious rites. I’m talking about a conscious decision, or perhaps more accurately the lack of a decision, to follow the way of the Lord. We are all sinners, and nothing changes that. No one is better than anyone else in that sense. To do nothing, to continue to live out your life in that state, is to die. That’s the default action.

The hard part is making that commitment to be a Christian in the true sense of the word. Not to follow a religion, not to be “better” than anyone else, and not for any other reason than to save yourself. That’s what I think God wants, and that gift is right there for the taking. And all the religious clap-trap that gets in the way of that straightforward message is a tragedy.