If Peyton and the Colts win the Superbowl....

[korme]

Colts / Pats is going to be such a damn good game..

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

That statement isn't quite consistent. You say that clutch performance is a measure of greatness. I have no quarrel with that.

But getting it done in the playoffs isn't down to one guy (which is the entire core of my point).

Say P Manny, throws fantastic balls this week coming. Every ball lands as soft as a feather perfectly placed in his reciever's hands. Say those players run after the catch and on every single play run almost the lenght of the field (because manning threw them just perfectly).

Then assume that for some reason, each one got tackled at the 1 yard line and fumbled.

Now yeah, i know this is a farcical scenario. But bear it out..

So Mr PM throws for some 612 yards (thus getting the record for yards in an NFL sanctioned game) but because his recievers are total dolts, his team loses.

Is that an indication of his ability? NO!!!! Not in the slightest. He DID give a clutch performance. Others let him down

Ergo playoff performance OF THE TEAM cannot be taken as a wholesale indicator of one player.

If he threw every ball perfectly and the recievers got hit in the numbers with each pass but somehow dropped every ball, is that his fault? NO!!! Vis a Vis, playoff performance (of the team) cannot be taken as a wholesale indicator of the QB's performance.

Finally, if he threw for 10 touchdowns this week, and nobody could believe their eyes, yet the special teams unit allowed every single kick off to be returned for a TD and somehow the Colts lost, would that in somehow reflect upon his performance? NO!!!! Concordantly, team performance in teh playoffs is not an indicator in a QB's 'greatness'

Sure, for a QB to be considered great, he has to bring the goods in the play offs. I am not arguing that point (i'm not arguing the clutch thing you mention). But he only plays one position. If the rest of the team fucks up, it bears no relation on his greatness or othewise.

THAT is the reason Trent Dilfer is not a better QB than Dan Marino.

Part of being a clutch performer is elevating the play of those around you. And yes, team performance is indicative of a QB's greatness. If it's not, then why do some QBs seem to always get one more score than the other team, regardless of how many points their defense or special teams give up?

[Yossarian]

You must be an atlanta fan.

QB != entire team

:-)

I'm not arguing that great QB's dont elevate the performance of those around them. I'm just saying, if a QB never wins the superbowl, heck if he never wins a playoff game - it could be due to factors other than the QB's greatness

[rkmsuf]

There is just something about that Colts team that has yet to get over the hump. Hard to put your finger on but collectively they have blown quite a few chances. Most recently it was Manning's fault in turning the ball over in last year's AFC Championship. Prior to that they got stuffed 4 times from the 1 or they would have had home field.

Before that they had home field and let Tennesse come in and beat them. They got blasted 41-0 by the Jets.

Not to say they won't get over the hump but the Colts including Manning have a lot to prove.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

You must be an atlanta fan.

QB != entire team

:-)

I'm not arguing that great QB's dont elevate the performance of those around them. I'm just saying, if a QB never wins the superbowl, heck if he never wins a playoff game - it could be due to factors other than the QB's greatness

Certainly true, and unfortunately those QBs get the "what could have been" tag instead of the "greatest ever" tag.

[Yossarian]

Ach.... abuse of the term!!

[Crapshoot]

This is The Derek Jeter clutch arguement all over again, with as much in its favor.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

There is just something about that Colts team that has yet to get over the hump. Hard to put your finger on but collectively they have blown quite a few chances. Most recently it was Manning's fault in turning the ball over in last year's AFC Championship. Prior to that they got stuffed 4 times from the 1 or they would have had home field.

Before that they had home field and let Tennesse come in and beat them. They got blasted 41-0 by the Jets.

Not to say they won't get over the hump but the Colts including Manning have a lot to prove.

It's because dome teams are evil.

[Daimyo]

I think he's already done enough to qualify for the HoM. As for the question:

"If Peyton and the Colts win the Superbowl will he be considered the best qb ever?"

I'd say if you also assume he puts up a couple more seasons like last year and then say five more at the pre-last year level he'll have to at least replace Marino, Elway, Young, and Favre for the people who currently pick those guys. There will always be those who look at Super Bowl's as the key QB stat so they'll likely stick with Montona. There will also always be the old-timers who will still with Unitas, etc.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Yossarian

...

THAT is the reason Trent Dilfer is not a better QB than Dan Marino.

Yet it does come somewhat into play. I don't think Marino is in the same league as Manning for most of his career, and I'm thinking part of the reason must be that he played for marginal teams most of that time. I also think that toward the end of his career, he was a large contributing factor to the Dolphins mediocrity.

As for Barry Sanders, since he was brought up, he was a great open field runner, but I think he is well down on the list of the greatest running backs in the history of the game.

This bit of iconoclasty(IS that a word?) brought to you courtesy of the endless meeting that has sucked the life out of me.

[Yossarian]

I remember reading that Elway was better in the years prior to his Superbowl years.

I only started watching NFL during his & Terrell's runs.

Yet, had he not achieved 'the big un' (which many credit to Terrell) he wouldn't have been thought of by many as being anywhere near as good a QB. DESPITE THE FACT that by most accounts he played better earlier.

Geez.. vocabulary abuse...

[Daimyo]

Marino's problem was that he was so good that it was nearly impossible for his team to win less than 9 games every season. Once they'd had him a while they had no way to bring in much talent with bad draft picks pre-FA.

[spleen1015]

I believe this game is the game that the Colts do it. NE has a lot of key injuries and the Colts offense right now is the best it has ever been.

I remember back to the early 90s when Steve Young couldn't get over the hump and beat the Cowboys. I think it took him 2 or 3 years to do it, but he finally did. I think this year is Manning's 'finally'.

[Darkiller]

Manning has been a starter since 1998, that's seven full seasons and as of now, he's on track to shatter every single passing records that Dan Marino currently holds.
He's been a multiple-time Pro-Bowler and has now won 2 NFL MVP titles.

This year, he's had arguably the single greatest season ever for a QB but HE NEEDS to cap it off with a SuperBowl title.
Because this is where it all comes down : to win a SuperBowl.

Steve Young's fabulous 1994 season (where he set a bunch of team and league records and won his 2nd MVP award) was so memorable because ultimately he beat the Cowboys, won the SuperBowl, threw 6 TDs and was the game's MVP.

If Manning ends up winning the SuperBowl this year. Then he'll be among the very best ever...even after "only" 7 years in the league.

[judicial clerk]

Yet it does come somewhat into play. I don't think Marino is in the same league as Manning for most of his career, and I'm thinking part of the reason must be that he played for marginal teams most of that time. I also think that toward the end of his career, he was a large contributing factor to the Dolphins mediocrity.

As for Barry Sanders, since he was brought up, he was a great open field runner, but I think he is well down on the list of the greatest running backs in the history of the game.

This bit of iconoclasty(IS that a word?) brought to you courtesy of the endless meeting that has sucked the life out of me.

This meeting is sucking the brains out of you too. These guys are both top 5 all-time guys at their position.

I remember reading that Elway was better in the years prior to his Superbowl years.

I only started watching NFL during his & Terrell's runs.

Yet, had he not achieved 'the big un' (which many credit to Terrell) he wouldn't have been thought of by many as being anywhere near as good a QB. DESPITE THE FACT that by most accounts he played better earlier.

Elway was way better earlier in his career.

I can't believe that manning has been in the league for 7 years. It took me a long time to warm up to him and his audibling antics. (I was was one of the guys who chose Vick over manning in some thread last year. I think I must have been in the same meeting Glengoyne was in.)

Here are how the modern QB's break down.

1. Montana, Unitas (I know, not modern, but he is the modern standard)
2. Marino, Elway;
3. Steve Young, Warren Moon, Brett Favre,
4. Aikman, Jim Kelly, Roger Staubach, Fran Tarkenton, Manning, Brady;
5. Phil Simms, Ken Anderson, Rich Gannon, Boomer Esiason, Bradshaw
I am sure I am forgetting a few here and there.