Grieving 9/11 Widow Spends Almost $5 Million

[Suicane75]

Theres a big difference between the need to check the oven 20 times, brush your teeth 10 times a day, drinking too much and spending $500,000 on fucking shoes. She never had this problem before she got the money and apparently, now that it's all almost gone, she's overcome it. It isn't a disorder, it's a person who blew alot of money and now regrets it.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Subby

Why is it absurd?

Drug addiction is chemical. Your body NEEDS the drug. Chronic shopping is not a condition or an addiction, it's usually just a symptom of an actual problem.

(EDIT: to answer Jon, no, I don't consider drug addiction and compulsive behaivor to be the same thing)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

Theres a big difference between the need to check the oven 20 times, brush your teeth 10 times a day, drinking too much and spending $500,000 on fucking shoes.

No Suicane, there really isn't. It's just a different manifestation of a compulsive disorder.

Note, I'm not saying whether she had it or not (hell, I'm ready to see if there's a way to jail this bitch for fraud). But it does exist, I've seen it, and it ain't pretty.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No Suicane, there really isn't. It's just a different manifestation of a compulsive disorder.

Note, I'm not saying whether she had it or not (hell, I'm ready to see if there's a way to jail this bitch for fraud). But it does exist, I've seen it, and it ain't pretty.

I'm not say that compulsion isn't a disorder, i'm saying that in this case I don't think it's what happened. I don't know the woman, feel bad for what happened to her husband, but i have a hard time believing that this was anything more than a spending spree later regretted.

[Galaxy]

Just a food for though:

What about people who win the lottery. They go on complusive shopping sprees, and usually end up going broke.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Just a food for though:

What about people who win the lottery. They go on complusive shopping sprees, and usually end up going broke.

It's their cash, they can spend it however they want. If they go broke it's their own fault for not being responsible with their cash.

Just being consistent.

[Karlifornia]

I hope I can bid on her shit at an auction. Maybe she'll have a Ferrari.

[kcchief19]

Something odd's going on here -- in several instances today I've agreed with JIMGA and the Rahns. Have I gone right wing or something?

I may disagree with the way public money was distributed in this case, but once it was in her hands she can do what she see fits. But if she spends it foolishly and later wants to rationalize it through a seemingly fake problem problem, then she deserves any criticism that comes her way.

I'd have a lot more sympathy if her story made sense. If I had what I thought was "blood money," I'd like to think that I would spend it wisely, ensuring my family's future or donating the money to charity. Shoes, a home for the housekeeper and a $70,000 trip to the Super Bowl really doesn't seem to be on the list.

I agree that she had a problem and the spending of the money was a symptom of the problem. But the fact that she is calling it "blood money" after what she spent the money on sounds to me like she really hasn't addressed the original problem.

There was a story in the local media recently about a family who received money from someone who had (I believe) killed their father. The family was terribly conflicted because the money was allowing the kids to go to college when they ordinarily might not have had the opportunity. They were dealing with the fact that they had this tremendous opportunity given to them by someone who decimated their lives. That's blood money. Shoe money isn't.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Something odd's going on here -- in several instances today I've agreed with JIMGA and the Rahns. Have I gone right wing or something?

Don't you feel sooooo dirty?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

It's their cash, they can spend it however they want. If they go broke it's their own fault for not being responsible with their cash.

Just being consistent.

My argument was more about the the "chronic shopping" sydrome/condition, ect.

[jamesUMD]

Originally Posted by CHEMICAL SOLDIER

Sounds like all the meat from the cash cow is gone, so it's time for sympathy money.

Ding
Ding
Ding
Ding
Ding
Ding
We have a winner. Screw her.

[Galaril]

On a side note I went to uni with Dan and he was a great great basketball player in divison 3. He led the school's team (Clark University) to the final 4 his senior year. I didn't know him well my Dad actually knew him better and said he was anice guy. This is sad to here of his passing I had not heard of it back in 2001.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

I hope I can bid on her shit at an auction. Maybe she'll have a Ferrari.

Give me a Lambo.

Actually, sounds like the dot-come times, when everyone was a paper millionaire and went out and bought a Ferrari or two, and ended up going bust.

[Vinatieri for Prez]

I won't be judgmental, but if I was one of her friends that gave her cash, I would judge and I would be pissed.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Vinatieri for Prez

I won't be judgmental, but if I was one of her friends that gave her cash, I would judge and I would be pissed.

Same here. I would assume it would be helping her pay bills, not for her to spend it on 500 pairs of shoes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Same here. I would assume it would be helping her pay bills, not for her to spend it on 500 pairs of shoes.

Alas, I'd be making the same assumption ... and I'd be just as wrong as I was in a local situation here.

Remember that incident with the missing fisherman that involved the guys from here in my little town, about, what? a year or so ago? The one where one guy died, his dad & 2 others eventually rescued.

Well, like a lot of people around here, I made a donation to the "memorial fund" for the deceased. It was to help his wife pay some bills, take care of their young daughter, etc.

Well, it certainly helped pay some bills -- so far, that I know of specifically, bills for a new in-ground pool (complete with 10 foot high electrically lit fake palm trees, I shit you not), a couple of long trips sans daughter, and my personal favorite, a new BMW to replace her 2 y/o one. The reason given for the new car? I didn't like the color of the old one. Actual question someone asked her (when she phoned them to say "I'm driving home in my new car"): Q:"What kind of car did you get?"
A: " A red one"

Yeah, y'think maybe I feel like I made a poor investment on that donation?

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Yeah, y'think maybe I feel like I made a poor investment on that donation?

Hmm. Just a gut feeling, but I'm going to say Yes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Hmm. Just a gut feeling, but I'm going to say Yes.

I see that you have acquired the highly accurate Magic 8-Ball

[digamma]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Alas, I'd be making the same assumption ... and I'd be just as wrong as I was in a local situation here.

Remember that incident with the missing fisherman that involved the guys from here in my little town, about, what? a year or so ago? The one where one guy died, his dad & 2 others eventually rescued.

Well, like a lot of people around here, I made a donation to the "memorial fund" for the deceased. It was to help his wife pay some bills, take care of their young daughter, etc.

Well, it certainly helped pay some bills -- so far, that I know of specifically, bills for a new in-ground pool (complete with 10 foot high electrically lit fake palm trees, I shit you not), a couple of long trips sans daughter, and my personal favorite, a new BMW to replace her 2 y/o one. The reason given for the new car? I didn't like the color of the old one. Actual question someone asked her (when she phoned them to say "I'm driving home in my new car"): Q:"What kind of car did you get?"
A: " A red one"

Yeah, y'think maybe I feel like I made a poor investment on that donation?

In hindsight, I'm very happy all donations to our family went straight to the scholarship fund. We've had to monitor my step-mother's spending of insurance money much more carefully than I would have liked (and there is a huge element of survivor's guilt/blood money), and looking back, adding in "other people's money" would have added a complexity I'm very happy I didn't have to deal with.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Alas, I'd be making the same assumption ... and I'd be just as wrong as I was in a local situation here.

Remember that incident with the missing fisherman that involved the guys from here in my little town, about, what? a year or so ago? The one where one guy died, his dad & 2 others eventually rescued.

Well, like a lot of people around here, I made a donation to the "memorial fund" for the deceased. It was to help his wife pay some bills, take care of their young daughter, etc.

Well, it certainly helped pay some bills -- so far, that I know of specifically, bills for a new in-ground pool (complete with 10 foot high electrically lit fake palm trees, I shit you not), a couple of long trips sans daughter, and my personal favorite, a new BMW to replace her 2 y/o one. The reason given for the new car? I didn't like the color of the old one. Actual question someone asked her (when she phoned them to say "I'm driving home in my new car"): Q:"What kind of car did you get?"
A: " A red one"

Yeah, y'think maybe I feel like I made a poor investment on that donation?

Was she "rich" to begin with? What happen with her now? Isn't this kinda illegal (to defraud a charitable donation/fund, though I guess it would be sticky in this situation)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Was she "rich" to begin with? What happen with her now? Isn't this kinda illegal (to defraud a charitable donation/fund, though I guess it would be sticky in this situation)

Nah, not rich by any stretch of the imagination, public school teacher

And, best I can tell, nothing illegal about it. It was nothing more than bank accounts opened on her behalf at a couple of local banks. People who wanted to make donations were free to do so, there was (I think) at least 1 or 2 benefit shows held to contribute to the fund as well.

The presumption, as is typically the case for things like this, is that the money would go toward logical stuff -- making ends meet, the kid's future, etc. -- but that's not exactly the approach she's taken.

Her answer (when someone sort of broached the subject): "I just figure that money is for me. The insurance money will come eventually, that can take care of bills & stuff, I just want to enjoy this right now, I deserve to."

There's quite a bit more, but I think you get the picture.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Nah, not rich by any stretch of the imagination, public school teacher

And, best I can tell, nothing illegal about it. It was nothing more than bank accounts opened on her behalf at a couple of local banks. People who wanted to make donations were free to do so, there was (I think) at least 1 or 2 benefit shows held to contribute to the fund as well.

The presumption, as is typically the case for things like this, is that the money would go toward logical stuff -- making ends meet, the kid's future, etc. -- but that's not exactly the approach she's taken.

Her answer (when someone sort of broached the subject): "I just figure that money is for me. The insurance money will come eventually, that can take care of bills & stuff, I just want to enjoy this right now, I deserve to."

There's quite a bit more, but I think you get the picture.

The "old BMW" kinda made me think she had some money, must pay good salaries to teachers in your area. For being a public school teacher, I would have concerns over her behavior and being a teacher if I had any children. Sets a poor standard.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The "old BMW" kinda made me think she had some money, must pay good salaries to teachers in your area. For being a public school teacher, I would have concerns over her behavior and being a teacher if I had any children. Sets a poor standard.

No money, just plenty of debt. She's about as prepared to run a household as your average 6 y/o, heck, I'm not sure her 5 y/o daughter isn't more mature. Unfortunately, the drowning victim had a knack for picking women with major league issues, and his widow is no exception.

Meanwhile, not much chance anybody will say "boo" to her, after all, she's "the grieving widow"

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

No money, just plenty of debt. She's about as prepared to run a household as your average 6 y/o, heck, I'm not sure her 5 y/o daughter isn't more mature. Unfortunately, the drowning victim had a knack for picking women with major league issues, and his widow is no exception.

Meanwhile, not much chance anybody will say "boo" to her, after all, she's "the grieving widow"

Sounds about right. She'll get "caught" up then with all the debt at some point, I take it.

[SFL Cat]

Let me reach deep within myself to find heart-felt sympathy for this woman......okay, I got nothing.

[duckman]

Yeah, my give-a-shit meter is registering a zero.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Sounds about right. She'll get "caught" up then with all the debt at some point, I take it.

Who knows, I don't get the impression she's worried about it much.

What's going to be really interesting is whether the life insurance money ever comes through -- bear in mind, the boaters were in violation of several regulations at the time of their sinking (too far out with too small a boat, etc.).
Seems to me that there's a pretty darned good case for the insurer to fight the payoff, even moreso there than the absence of a recovered body.

(FTR, in case anybody wonders, I share quite a few mutual friends with the widow. I've been told far more about the situation than I ever wanted to know, right down to who she's sleeping with,where,and when)

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

(FTR, in case anybody wonders, I share quite a few mutual friends with the widow. I've been told far more about the situation than I ever wanted to know, right down to who she's sleeping with,where,and when)

Lucky you.

[NYFAN]

I know we all lose loved ones, friends, etc... but how many people here lost someone from 9/11? As a native new yorker, I consider myself extremely lucky to not have lost anyone I know, and feel just as lucky that nobody I know well lost anyone close to them.

My point being this... I really don't think anyone can understand the amount of pain a woman like this felt when her husband, her kid's father was killed by a bunch of extremists because they hate the concept of America. Unless you've been in the situation where you've lost someone that close to you, at such a young age that was so unexpected. (if you have please feel to speak up to agree or disagree) I'm not going to get into the whole debate on whether she should get money (personally, in this situation I'm ok with the government giving families who lost the primary financial provider money...but I can understand those that disagree). And I'm not saying what she did was right, or that this is a "good excuse", obviously she screwed up.

What I'm trying to say here is take the grief and stress of losing her husband, combine that with probably 100's of people telling her how awful it was, and how it should never have happened to her husband, and how it's just not fair. Add to it the fact that everyday on the TV, newspapers, everywhere you turned in the tri-state area all you saw, heard, talked about was 9/11 and she couldn't get away from it for months. Give a person like that a few million dollars, and expect them to spend it wisely? In all honesty I'm surprised you don't hear a lot more stories like this.

I'm not saying what she did was right, or excusable, or that a $500,000 shoe collection isn't absurd... but what I am saying is that I can believe the fact that with all of those factors, and seeing the devestation, and the way people acted in the aftermath, that yea, she could do something completely outlandish like spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on stupid things like shoes, clothing, basketball courts in her backyard and what not.

Looking back on it, and distancing yourself from it, it's easy to say that woman is messed up, and it's absolutely ridiculous that she did that. But I dare you to put yourself in her situation, and tell me that you wouldn't make a few bad decisions in the months following, especially if you have a disorder that you weren't being fully treated for, or if you were not lucky enough to be receiving good advice from family and friends.

I really think that if this article were released closer to 9/11, saying that she had blown hundreds of thousands of dollars in a few weeks after it, your reaction would have been completely different. But because time has passed, and a lot of us were lucky enough to not have been as touched as closely as others by this event, we write her off as some crazy bitch who spent too much on clothing and accessories.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by NYFAN

Give a person like that a few million dollars, and expect them to spend it wisely? In all honesty I'm surprised you don't hear a lot more stories like this.

I'm not saying what she did was right, or excusable, or that a $500,000 shoe collection isn't absurd... but what I am saying is that I can believe the fact that with all of those factors, and seeing the devestation, and the way people acted in the aftermath, that yea, she could do something completely outlandish like spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on stupid things like shoes, clothing, basketball courts in her backyard and what not.

I think the problems is that most taxypayers were not in favor of this fund, due to these reasons. Also, I think what irks alot of people is that' her going public and statements that she's made (about it being blood money) four years later and blowing through millions of dollars, kinda don't make her look too good.

[NYFAN]

I realize she doesn't look too good after those statements, but a) having been a journalist for a number years I realize that the writer can make a person sound great or awful despite their quotes... and b) maybe she's actually telling the "truth" (scary word now a days), realized her mistakes, and is actually trying to make people aware so that they don't do the same thing....

All I really want to get across, is that I think a lot of people here are bashing her unfairly. Yes she screwed up, but give the woman a break, she went through as hard a time as anyone could, obviously she has some issues, and in a situation like that I would like to think people have enough compassion to leave the woman alone, and if you want to call her a b*tch or whatever say it to yourself... I see no need to publicly bash her as I felt a lot of people were on this board.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NYFAN

I see no need to publicly bash her as I felt a lot of people were on this board.

When she's pissing away tax money, a public bashing on this forum is not a minute fraction of what she deserves.

Feel sorry for her if you want, I'd rather give her a series of backhands across the fucking mouth.

[hhiipp]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

When she's pissing away tax money, a public bashing on this forum is not a minute fraction of what she deserves.

Feel sorry for her if you want, I'd rather give her a series of backhands across the fucking mouth.

Dickslap her once for me.

[NYFAN]

I'm not saying that I feel sorry for her. I'm saying if there was ever a time to bite your tongue, and hold back what you want to say, this is it. I'm not going to say anymore because I'm obviously not going to change your mind.

[hhiipp]

You almost sound like you wrote this story.

[NYFAN]

No, but obviously feeling a little bit more connected to the situation than yourself I have a little more respect for her and her family than to make the comments you are making without more information.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by NYFAN

I'm not saying that I feel sorry for her. I'm saying if there was ever a time to bite your tongue, and hold back what you want to say, this is it.

And you said you're a journalist, is that correct? Don't know many that advocate that.

[NYFAN]

No I was a journalist. Now I'm an assistant college coach.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NYFAN

No, but obviously feeling a little bit more connected to the situation than yourself I have a little more respect for her and her family than to make the comments you are making without more information.

Oh Jesus Christ ... "more connected"? What? Because you're in NY? Like you have some intrinsic connection to this woman by virtue of geography? It may have escaped your notice, being but there was a wee bit of concern in other areas too. She lost her spouse, in an awful way ... just like thousands of others did that day ... and every other day of the year all over the country.
But you seem to believe that you get to sit in judgement of others for daring to have an opinion strictly by virtue of your area code. Well, nice to see that the old New York "the world revolves around us" attitude is back, I guess we can resume hating you the way we used to.

Like I said, I don't need any information beyond the way she utilized tax dollars, that's the issue I'm criticizing and I sure as blue fucking hell don't need anybody from NY trying to give etiquette lessons, that's about the most absurd thing I've seen on FOFC in ages, maybe in forever.

[judicial clerk]

I think my wife might secretly be a 9/11 widow.

[NYFAN]

Listen, obviously what I said was misinterpreted. I'm not saying that I'm more connected because I'm from NY, and you're not because you're from GA or wherever. I am saying I'm more connected because I know a lot of people who were touched by it a lot closer than you were (do you know 10, 15, 20 people who had direct connections to the events that day?). Like I said, I was extremely lucky not to know anyone who died that I was close to, or people who I was close to know anyone who they were very close to, but that doesn't mean that I don't know a lot of people who were still very closely involved.

Firefighters, classemates' parents, even had family that worked with people in those buildings. For Gods' sake my dad's uncle was one of the chief architects of one of the buildings... It's not just because I'm from NY...

But to compare that story, with the person you know who lost her husband in a fishing accident and then spends on all the donated money because she's getting life insurance sounds extremely different to me. Your example sounds as though she fully understands what she's doing. As far as I'm concerned your fishing lady can be called whatever you want, she doesn't have a problem, she's just being a b*tch in a lot of people's eyes.

On the opposite hand this other woman obviously has a problem, and clearly didn't know how to deal with her grief which was probably magnified 10 fold by living in NY one of the craziest media venues in the world. You could not get away from it for months on end. I lived in PA at the time of the incident going to school, I saw how it changed that community, and I saw how long it "lasted" there in terms of media, newspapers, etc... when it had long since disipated in PA, it was still very much alive and active when I went home to NY, and it continued to be for many more months.

I'm not saying that because I'm from NY I'm better, or worse, or that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm not saying that just because I believe she deserves people to bite their tongues, that you should believe that. I'm not saying that because I think she deserved money from the government that you should think that either. If I said any of that I apologize now, that wasn't what I intended to say.

I do believe that people should bite their tongues, and yes, it does anger me a little bit when they don't, but if you can back up your argument then even if it angers me I'm not judging that you are good or bad as a result of it - I just disagree with it strongly.

[NYFAN]

The comments that really irritate me are the ones like:

"I'd rather give her a series of backhands across the fucking mouth."
"Dickslap her once for me."
"I think my wife might secretly be a 9/11 widow."

Because the way I interpret them they are compltely disrespectful, and while I disagree with what she did, I don't get the impression that she is a "bad person". Having read a lot of your posts I would think that you would agree with me on that one Jon. You seem to be a very reasonable person, willing to reach out to people, and recognize a person with issues who makes a mistake is very different from someone who just has a twisted mind and is out to cause trouble. So yea it kind of surprised me when I read that quote from you.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NYFAN

Listen, obviously what I said was misinterpreted. I'm not saying that I'm more connected because I'm from NY, and you're not because you're from GA or wherever. I am saying I'm more connected because I know a lot of people who were touched by it a lot closer than you were (do you know 10, 15, 20 people who had direct connections to the events that day?).

Actually, I knew quite a few, as did a lot more people than you might imagine (or than I imagined). Among them, a very close friend who normally would have been in the nearest subway station at that time of morning (I don't know the station name, just know it was the closest one, perhaps in/at the towers themselves?), her fiance (now husband) who normally worked in the towers 3 days a week but as it happened not on 9/11, two pilots who sometimes have NYC routes, and so forth. And roughly 2 full days before we could make contact with any of them.

Like you, we count ourselves fortunate not to have lost any of them that day.

Right or wrong, for better or worse, your comments about "connection" did come across as "NY arrogance", which is what I reacted to. I'm willing to take you at your word that it was a misinterpretation, and hope that you will likewise accept my apology for anything that was unwarranted.

Otherwise, we remain at a different interpretation of the facts of the matter, particularly:

On the opposite hand this other woman obviously has a problem, and clearly didn't know how to deal with her grief which was probably magnified 10 fold by living in NY one of the craziest media venues in the world.

I'm not sure that there's anything "obvious" for either of us, absent personal knowledge of this specific woman. Remember, there were fraudulent insurance claims filed in the aftermath, meaning it at least isn't unimaginable that this is merely someone taking advantage of an opportunity to have a large amount of disposable income. I'm certainly not saying that's the case, I'm simply saying that it's a viable possibility that neither of us can wholly discount unless we know the "truth" of the matter personally.

Remember too, that earlier in this thread, I was among the minority that argued that compulsive shopping is a legitimate psychological disorder, so I'm not opposed to that explanation (or something related).

Where we part company, best I can tell, is what we believe is the appropriate amount of outrage or compassion for such an illness -- you counsel caution, I on the other hand believe this is as worthy of public outrage & condemnation as if she had spent taxpayers dollars on, say, a drug habit or drank it away at the corner bar, buying rounds for the house.

We can, I believe, easily agree to disagree ... and hopefully do so while putting any misunderstanding behind us.

[Raiders Army]

I don't think that it's "NY arrogance." (Speaking of which, any of you remember Rick Martel's cologne, Arrogance?)

Anyhow, I think what happened in NY gets a different picture from people getting killed by drunk drivers, or people getting murdered, etc. because of three big reasons:

1. It happened at one time. There has never been a huge mass murder or drunk driving crash that has killed that many people at once.
2. It happened at one location (okay two if you count the Pentagon). The survivors and surviving relatives can band together geographically, which is much harder for victims of other deaths.
3. The enemy was not us. The people who killed in 9/11 were the Taliban, Al-Queada, etc. They weren't your neighbor down the street.

That's why it was so big and continues to resonate today in NY.

[NYFAN]

Jon I completely respect what you were saying, and I did read where you were defending it as an illness. Like I later said, the statements I cited were the ones that really blew me up.

I think I should be more clear in my complaints...

Almost everyone has connections to what happened in NYC, but I'm not even considering the amount of pain and worrying I felt while waiting to find out if loved ones were there - numerous aunts, uncles, cousins work in those buildings on occassion, i have friends who live in the city, anyone of my friends, family could have taken a trip into the city that day for whatever reason and been there, (and trust me that's all I could think about... friends who live in the city, or who just happened to take a trip into the city today for leisure, or work, it could be just about anyone I know) etc... And like you it took me almost a full day to get in touch with my family and friends. So I clearly understand where you are coming from on that aspect. But where I think the "distance" element really surfaces is in the time after that. When for months on end the front page of the newspaper has to deal with 9/11 survivors, memorials, tributes, gov't guessing, etc... where I feel as though in other parts of the country the grieving process was much quicker (even if it still took a long time). I didn't realize this completely until I came back from school, and while you would see an article here, and there in the newspaper, or on the news, it was completely different when I'd come back to NY. Everyday there were articles on end about the disaster, TV newscrews constantly trying to find a different angle, pay tribute to a different fallen hero etc... If you lived in NY you could not get away from it the same way you could as close as 4 hrs away in PA.

I don't mean it to portray a NY arrogance of any sort, as I feel if these things had happened in Atlanta, you would have been much deeper effected by it than I would have. Yes, I know a couple of people in Atlanta, and I would have been worried about them, and obviously I would have been passionate about the situation being a proud American, but it's not in my backyard. Everytime I walked out the door it was in my face, whether it was a sign of tribute on my neighbor's mailbox 3 years later, or driving past the house of someone who lost a relative, or driving past the train station where I have stuck in my mind the images of hundreds of people waiting as loved ones walk off the train to give them a hug because they are so glad they're alive... I can't imagine what it must have been like to actually have lost someone close to you and constantly have these reminders that just don't go away. For about 3 years after the event, I would say close to 50% of the cars that I saw in my area had some type of tribute on them, whether a bumper sticker, a flag, or some other tribute... just constant reminders of what happened. Even things like my college roommate's parents were on the beach that day in new jersey and could see the smoke billowing from the towers, and when they ran into a woman who's husband worked on the top floor of one of the buildings desperately trying to find out any information they could. You heard these stories all-day, everyday for months on end in NY... you just could not get away from it like you could in other places like PA, even though it was only 3 hours from the city.

I'm not saying that people elsewhere didn't experience the pain that NYers did, but I would be shocked if they experienced it to the same effect as someone living here did (not even myself really... I'm sure it would have impacted me even more if I had been here, and forced to live here in the immediate months afterward).

So when people make comments like:

"I'd rather give her a series of backhands across the fucking mouth."
"Dickslap her once for me."
"I think my wife might secretly be a 9/11 widow."

Yes, those things make me extremely angry because I feel like the things that woman did were more a product of her disability, and surroundings and circumstances, than people give her credit for, and undermine what a lot of NYers (and I'm sure Americans across the country as well) took away from the experience - that we need to work together, and support each other more than we ever have before. Could I be completely wrong, could she be a fraud, yea, could be, but seeing NY in the time after the attacks, I feel as though the few people who acted fraudulently were in such a minority, and commited such an atrocity themselves, that without some amazing proof, I'm compelled to think that as stupid as her actions were, they weren't necessarily a reflection of her character.

I know we may disagree and that's fine, but I just wanted to explain myself a little further I guess. Raiders Army hit on a few very important issues, and like I think we all know, a life cut short is a tragic thing none worse than another, that's not what I'm arguing, but I don't think people outside of the immediate area can have as complete a realization of how long and seriously it effected the surrounding communities, just like I can't imagine how much more a person that actually lives in the city itself must have dealt with it... or someone who worked in those buildings and called in sick... the closer you are, the harder home it hits... I don't mean it in an arrogant way, it's just a reality of life... Just like it usually hurts more to lose a brother than it does a cousin.

I hope at worst we can just agree to disagree, and try and keep the harsher more disrespectful comments to a minimum out of respect to people who were involved in it more closely, and who may know someone in a similar situation, and who don't want to speak up. I'm sure people on this board know people who lost loved ones, and maybe are in a similar situation, and as a result it hits them even harder. I'm not one of them thankfully, but I just feel like it's still a very disrespectful thing to say some of the things that have been said... maybe I'm wrong and just acting overly sensitive, but I'm not going to back down from my belief that some of those statements from board members were inappropriate (agreeing to disagree is fine). I do apologize though because a lot of what you said does have merit, and is written respectfully... so, hopefully we can just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by NYFAN

Jon I completely respect what you were saying, and I did read where you were defending it as an illness. Like I later said, the statements I cited were the ones that really blew me up.

I think I should be more clear in my complaints...

Almost everyone has connections to what happened in NYC, but I'm not even considering the amount of pain and worrying I felt while waiting to find out if loved ones were there - numerous aunts, uncles, cousins work in those buildings on occassion, i have friends who live in the city, anyone of my friends, family could have taken a trip into the city that day for whatever reason and been there, (and trust me that's all I could think about... friends who live in the city, or who just happened to take a trip into the city today for leisure, or work, it could be just about anyone I know) etc... And like you it took me almost a full day to get in touch with my family and friends. So I clearly understand where you are coming from on that aspect. But where I think the "distance" element really surfaces is in the time after that. When for months on end the front page of the newspaper has to deal with 9/11 survivors, memorials, tributes, gov't guessing, etc... where I feel as though in other parts of the country the grieving process was much quicker (even if it still took a long time). I didn't realize this completely until I came back from school, and while you would see an article here, and there in the newspaper, or on the news, it was completely different when I'd come back to NY. Everyday there were articles on end about the disaster, TV newscrews constantly trying to find a different angle, pay tribute to a different fallen hero etc... If you lived in NY you could not get away from it the same way you could as close as 4 hrs away in PA.

I don't mean it to portray a NY arrogance of any sort, as I feel if these things had happened in Atlanta, you would have been much deeper effected by it than I would have. Yes, I know a couple of people in Atlanta, and I would have been worried about them, and obviously I would have been passionate about the situation being a proud American, but it's not in my backyard. Everytime I walked out the door it was in my face, whether it was a sign of tribute on my neighbor's mailbox 3 years later, or driving past the house of someone who lost a relative, or driving past the train station where I have stuck in my mind the images of hundreds of people waiting as loved ones walk off the train to give them a hug because they are so glad they're alive... I can't imagine what it must have been like to actually have lost someone close to you and constantly have these reminders that just don't go away. For about 3 years after the event, I would say close to 50% of the cars that I saw in my area had some type of tribute on them, whether a bumper sticker, a flag, or some other tribute... just constant reminders of what happened. Even things like my college roommate's parents were on the beach that day in new jersey and could see the smoke billowing from the towers, and when they ran into a woman who's husband worked on the top floor of one of the buildings desperately trying to find out any information they could. You heard these stories all-day, everyday for months on end in NY... you just could not get away from it like you could in other places like PA, even though it was only 3 hours from the city.

I'm not saying that people elsewhere didn't experience the pain that NYers did, but I would be shocked if they experienced it to the same effect as someone living here did (not even myself really... I'm sure it would have impacted me even more if I had been here, and forced to live here in the immediate months afterward).

So when people make comments like:

"I'd rather give her a series of backhands across the fucking mouth."
"Dickslap her once for me."
"I think my wife might secretly be a 9/11 widow."

Yes, those things make me extremely angry because I feel like the things that woman did were more a product of her disability, and surroundings and circumstances, than people give her credit for, and undermine what a lot of NYers (and I'm sure Americans across the country as well) took away from the experience - that we need to work together, and support each other more than we ever have before. Could I be completely wrong, could she be a fraud, yea, could be, but seeing NY in the time after the attacks, I feel as though the few people who acted fraudulently were in such a minority, and commited such an atrocity themselves, that without some amazing proof, I'm compelled to think that as stupid as her actions were, they weren't necessarily a reflection of her character.

I know we may disagree and that's fine, but I just wanted to explain myself a little further I guess. Raiders Army hit on a few very important issues, and like I think we all know, a life cut short is a tragic thing none worse than another, that's not what I'm arguing, but I don't think people outside of the immediate area can have as complete a realization of how long and seriously it effected the surrounding communities, just like I can't imagine how much more a person that actually lives in the city itself must have dealt with it... or someone who worked in those buildings and called in sick... the closer you are, the harder home it hits... I don't mean it in an arrogant way, it's just a reality of life... Just like it usually hurts more to lose a brother than it does a cousin.

I hope at worst we can just agree to disagree, and try and keep the harsher more disrespectful comments to a minimum out of respect to people who were involved in it more closely, and who may know someone in a similar situation, and who don't want to speak up. I'm sure people on this board know people who lost loved ones, and maybe are in a similar situation, and as a result it hits them even harder. I'm not one of them thankfully, but I just feel like it's still a very disrespectful thing to say some of the things that have been said... maybe I'm wrong and just acting overly sensitive, but I'm not going to back down from my belief that some of those statements from board members were inappropriate (agreeing to disagree is fine). I do apologize though because a lot of what you said does have merit, and is written respectfully... so, hopefully we can just leave it at that and agree to disagree.

What about the plane in Pennsylvania and Washington DC? Let me ask, how long is should a grieving process last? It's almost four years later. Not that you'll never forget or fill that loss, but I would think one would be at better terms and in a better state of mind after the shock and the grieving process, and start to be able to move forward. What about the thousands of other people who receive money from the fund?

[judicial clerk]

NYFAN, I appreciate your sensitivity regarding this issue and I can tell from your posts that you have genuine concern for the victims of 9/11 and their families.

However, I respectfully disagree that we should not criticize and even ridicule or joke about this woman's actions. In fact, while I made a joke about this woman's plight, I think that slapping her across the mouth would be closer to the more appropriate response to her behavior. This woman took 5 million dollars of donations and tax payer dollars and used it to turn her hose into a palace and buy shoes and boob jobs for her friends and she spent the money in less than four years. Her behavior is completely irresponsible. If you want to feal contempt and anger, you should feel it towards this woman who pissed away the generous gift she was given. By the way, the only reason she got this 5 million doallrs in the first place is because of the unprecedented outpouring of support and aid directed at the victims of 9/11 and their immediate families. Other family members of violent crime victims don't run into this kind of problem because no one gives them 5 million dollars. Her behavior is a slap in the face to those people as well. You imply that the greiving process for New yorkers and others with a close attachment to NY and the victims of 9/11 was more intense because of the constant reminders of the tragedy. I disagree with you, however, becuse those reminders came mostly in the form of support and aid. I think that actually it would be harder to be the anonymous family member of a violent crime victim who does not get an outpouring of support form the entire western world. At least family members effected by 9/11 are told to think of the victims as heroes, while other people who are touched by violence get nothing of the sort. Those victims simply have to buck up, becuase nobody is showing a bumper sticker saying how much they support them, let alone giving them 5 million dollars. I do not begrudge the victims of 9/11 and their loved ones the support they received from the world, but I do think it is wrong to assume that they were any more effected by their loss becuase it occred in a newsworthy way, and when this lady blows 5 million dollars on commercial crap I am going to judge her poorly. Other peole suffer emotional pain equivelant to hers and have to deal with financial stress becuase noone gives them 5 million dollars. I wish instead she would have given the money

All that said, I am happy to refrain from joking further about this woman simply as a courtesy to you because you seem like an interesting and intelligent person and I want your experience on the board an enjoyable one. however I cannot guarantee that some joke I might post in the future won't be offensive to you or some other valued member of this community becuase to do so would create a chilling effect on the board and to quote other another member, there would be nothing here but tumbleweeds.

[NYFAN]

I'm sure the people in DC and PA (to a much lesser extent since it went down in a field and nothing was really destroyed, people from that area weren't killed, this goes back to what Raiders Army was talking about) have the same exact feelings as people in NY. The biggest difference being the amount of casualties, and the devestation of the area.

I think most people at this point have completely moved forward, the examples I gave were much much much more prominent in the year or two after the events. But the point that it lasted between a year and 2 goes to illustrate my point that it effected the community more so than where I went to school in PA where after a few months it was basically an after thought.

Also the thousands of other people who got the contributions and used it wisely is a great point that it may not have been a bad thing by the federal gov't. All I was saying is that all the ingredients for a woman like this to screw up big time were there. And while it's completely fair to be mad at her, and be disgusted, I feel like certain people went too far with comments that were extremely disrespectful considering the whole picture.

What I'm trying to really get across, is whether or not people have moved on, there were comments made on this board that I felt were extremely disrespectful. PERIOD. I have used three as the easiest examples because I barely had to move my mouse to find them.

[NYFAN]

I decided to stop and think about all that's been said...Judicial Clerk, Subby, Jon, I agree a lot with what you've said from what I remember... and maybe even others that I've just forgotten...

Maybe I overreacted to a certain degree. But I think if you say that you believe this woman has a problem (depression, that triggered this) that you should lay off after that. It's like a mentally challenged guy who does something wrong and then a bunch of people call him retard to his face - it's just wrong, or at least that's how I was raised to act, maybe soem of you disagree. If she didn't have rational control, then there is very little difference in my book, except that her story is in the newspaper, possibly because she is actually trying to prevent others from falling into the same trap since it seems like a potentially preventable situation if it's caught early enough.

The whole 9/11 debate is really off topic, with the only main point being that it was such an intense episode that it was clearly enough to trigger her depression. I think most people would agree to that. Arguing over whether it was worse in NY or Georgia, or whether her loss is worse than a husband getting killed by a drunk driver is really a moot point. An interesting debate, but moot for this discussion.

If you don't believe she has a problem, I'm never going to be able to convince you otherwise. And if you think it's proper to ridicule someone because of a legitimate health problem, then I'm probably not going to convince you otherwise of that either.

But thinking about it all, I think that really I am nitpicking about it, and I apologize for probably blowing it out of proportion.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NYFAN

And if you think it's proper to ridicule someone because of a legitimate health problem, then I'm probably not going to convince you otherwise of that either.

To boil it down for me: I don't know what she has ... but I don't believe anything would earn her a free pass.

Again, to borrow one of the parallels drawn early in the thread, I'd be just as angry with her if she ran through tax money using drugs or drank it up. Yes, some of my anger is directed at the governmental brainiacs who gave her "my money" in the first place, but this isn't misplaced/redirected anger placed on her in lieu of them either -- I'd have the same backhand urge for either of those circumstances just as readily.

At any rate, I appreciate your consideration of the posts as the thread has wandered along, and your willingness to admit to at least some reconsideration.