Boston: Epstein...we don't need no stinking Epstein. - Page 2

Ragone · 11-22-2005, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WrongWay

Check out this trade. Pending Physicals

Boston
Josh Beckett
Mike Lowell

Florida
Hanley Ramirez
And 2 prospects to be named later

I know Florida was looking to unload some salary, but this is rediculous. Unbelievable.

Clay Dreslough must have made the trade ai for the computer gm for the marlins... or something..

Ksyrup · 11-22-2005, 07:48 AM

I don't see what's not to like for either side in this deal. If you start with the proposition that the Marlins have to cut salary, then Mike Lowell is an albatross and Beckett is getting too good for even an arbitration salary. But the only way to get rid of Lowell without paying 75% of his salary is to package him with a marketable commodity, and Beckett is certainly that. In exchange, they get a rookie starting SS, a highly regarded pitching prospect, and another minor league pitcher. They cut salary and fill a hole at SS. The Red Sox give up prospects for a potential replacement #1 starter for Schilling after this year and either a new 3rd baseman, which they need, or trade bait to get someone else they'd rather have (the Twins are reportedly interested in Lowell). Both teams gave up something and took a risk. That's what happens in trades.

miami_fan · 11-22-2005, 09:10 AM

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...d/13230541.htm

We deserve to lose more than Josh Beckett.

We deserve to lose this baseball team.

We are, bar none, the worst major-league city in North America.

We are the only area anywhere on this continent that could draw 800,000 fans below league average for a 2004 defending champion that was playoff-relevant until the season's last month.

Tampa Bay and Kansas City were the only two major-league markets with worse attendance than Florida's last season, but at least their excuse was last place, the two worst records in the league and a combined 71 games out of first.

If the Devil Rays and Royals had been one game ahead of Roger Clemens for the wild card with a month remaining, as the Marlins were, they would have been filling their stadiums as if the seats were made of cash. But last-place Pittsburgh, 33 games out, drew more fans per game than Florida last season. So did last-place Seattle, 26 games out. And last-place Colorado, which fielded a Triple A team last season.

NO APPRECIATION

Spoiled South Florida has zero appreciation for what the Marlins have given us. This team has won two championships in the past decade. That's as many as the White Sox and Red Sox have combined in the past 90 years. No South Florida sports franchise has earned our support more than this one. But taxpayers have built not one but two basketball arenas a few blocks from each other and a hockey arena for a sport with very little following here while never giving the Marlins anything beyond a yawn.

So now Beckett and Mike Lowell go to Boston for prospects and promises, and it feels like the first step in a bitter, sad, painful dismantling. Can't blame management. It has done everything it possibly can, bleeding money. Owner Jeffrey Loria has spent plenty on baseball. The same can't be said for South Florida. So don't complain if Beckett is only the first pebble in an avalanche that sends this entire franchise eventually out of town.

We lead the league in excuses. Too much rain. Too much heat. Don't like where the park is. It's a stadium built for football. (Cue the baby wailing here.) All those things were true in 1993, too, when the Marlins drew 37,838 a game for a bad team.

It wasn't less hot or less wet then. Where did the people go? Thirty-four bucks for four tickets, four hot dogs, four sodas and a program is about the best value in South Florida entertainment. If we were as good at support as we are at making excuses, the Marlins would be the Yankees. Baseball continues to set attendance records while South Florida sets indifferent records. Again, no city in North America could win this way and draw this poorly. Not one.

Wayne Huizenga didn't let the feel-good of 1997 echo into 1998 before his fire sale. But Loria let the cheers of 2003 echo into 2004 and 2005, trying to build a fan base, and we failed him, so now it looks like he is giving up. There likely will be a lot of noise in coming days from the likes of Carlos Delgado if he is traded about betrayal and lies, and it will make for easy headlines, but Loria deserves no wrath here.

LORIA SABOTAGED

He was sabotaged by a bad stadium, a bad lease, an indifferent fan base, an underachieving team and too many

politicians who spent a lot of time in the great seats during the World Series and in front of the cameras at the parade but got good and lost when it came time to find the few extra million that separated this team from its new stadium.

The Marlins will be worse in 2006. That seems inevitable. The prospects from Boston are good, but you can't win at this level with Jason Vargas as your second starter when you wheeze to 83-79 with him as your fourth guy behind Beckett and A.J. Burnett.

Beckett is a loss that stings more than the departures of Moises Alou or Pudge Rodriguez or Derrek Lee, because he is an overwhelming, young arm headed into its prime. He has the kind of stuff, confidence and youth that could make him an All-Star for the next decade.

Alas, all his future success will have to be elsewhere.

Not unlike this entire Marlins team.

For those of you who are un-familiar with Le Batard, he is one of the biggest homers/apologist in the South Florida media. You can actually take his criticism to the nth power. I am pretty confident that I have been to more Marlins games in the last five years (15-20) than at least 85 percent of the population in South Florida and I only made it down their 2 weeks out of the year during that time. Pathetic

Ksyrup · 11-22-2005, 09:22 AM

I agree. Dave Hyde's article, which I posted on the first page, reads almost exactly the same way. I don't even live in South Florida, but I've been to 3 games in the past 3 years, which is more than I bet a lot of so-called baseball fans who live within 30 minutes of the stadium have been to.

JasonC23 · 11-22-2005, 10:02 AM

Baseball is not broken in this case, Florida is.

Crapshoot · 11-22-2005, 10:12 AM

Eh LaBatard is one of the few good writers out there, willing to channel some degree of intelligence into his work, unlike the plaskhe's, Woody Paige's, or Jay Mariotti's of the world. One person does not a fanbase make.

Coop · 11-22-2005, 10:38 AM

I went to 8 marlins games and I live in fucking New Jersey. Probably more than those so called 'fans' in Florida. The marlins need to move.

stevew · 11-22-2005, 11:22 AM

They should move the Marlins somewhere like Jersey/NY. That metro area could likely support another team. Even if it wasnt as supported as even the Mets are, it would still be bigger than it is in Florida.

Coop · 11-22-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

They should move the Marlins somewhere like Jersey/NY. That metro area could likely support another team. Even if it wasnt as supported as even the Mets are, it would still be bigger than it is in Florida.

That would be awesome

miami_fan · 10-12-2007, 08:02 PM

Bump

I think the Marlins got robbed in this one.

Buccaneer · 10-12-2007, 08:12 PM

A lot of you were wrong.

Crapshoot · 10-12-2007, 08:24 PM

No, it was a win win - The Marlins got the guy who may have been the best player in the NL this year (Hanley Ramirez), and a few useful arms (Anibal Sanchez was pretty good last year). More importantly, they dumped $13 million in salary (from their perspective). The Red Sox "won" because of Lowell turning in an amazing performance, but the cost in dollars was a lot higher.

ThunderingHERD · 10-12-2007, 08:27 PM

Yeh, I'm confused...seems to me like it turned out better for the Marlins than anybody expected.

lighthousekeeper · 10-12-2007, 08:28 PM

yeah looks kinda like a win-win (at least the closest thing to a win that the Marlins could have hoped for in a losing situation).

Regardless, this was a great read; didn't catch it the first time around!

Young Drachma · 10-12-2007, 08:33 PM

I still think moving the Marlins would be awesome.

Toddzilla · 10-12-2007, 08:37 PM

Seems like everyone who thought this was a bad trade - for either side - was very very wrong. The Sox added the SP they needed, and the Marlins got arguably the best all-around player in the NL...Jose Reyes goes to sleep at night and dreams he was as good as Hanley Ramirez.

Rizon · 10-12-2007, 10:14 PM

Fat Fuck Wayne Huizinga may be business savy, but he has almost no knowledge of football and is one of the worst owners in the NFL. I hope that asshole dies.

Rizon · 10-12-2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizon

Fat Fuck Wayne Huizinga may be business savy, but he has almost no knowledge of football and is one of the worst owners in the NFL. I hope that asshole dies.

Dola,

And I hope that fat fuck SUFFERS. I'd shit on his grave.

ISiddiqui · 10-12-2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

Yeh, I'm confused...seems to me like it turned out better for the Marlins than anybody expected.

Yep, Hanley turned out to be one of the best players in the game, add that to the salary saved, and a decent pitcher in Anibel Sanchez, and the Marlins didn't do too badly at all.

Galaxy · 10-12-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I still think moving the Marlins would be awesome.

To where? I'm suprised at the Marlins inability to build a bigger base than it has, because in South Florida.

Galaril · 10-13-2007, 12:02 AM

Here is an interesting trade someone in the Boston media mentioned. Papelbon, Bucholtz and Lester for Johann Santana and some prospects.

BishopMVP · 10-13-2007, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

Here is an interesting trade someone in the Boston media mentioned. Papelbon, Bucholtz and Lester for Johann Santana and some prospects.

Haha. Not going to happen. As good as Santana is, we're not trading away 3 of our 6 most important pitchers next year for one player. Buchholz and Papelbon are both off the table.

And I'll agree this trade worked out great for both sides. Hanley looks like a future HOF'er and Beckett is an ace we needed to compete for the WS.

DaddyTorgo · 10-13-2007, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

Here is an interesting trade someone in the Boston media mentioned. Papelbon, Bucholtz and Lester for Johann Santana and some prospects.

the RS front office would have to be stupid to do that. And they're not stupid.

Logan · 10-13-2007, 08:26 AM

Somewhere, both Michelle Wie and Elmo are smiling.

miami_fan · 10-13-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lighthousekeeper

yeah looks kinda like a win-win (at least the closest thing to a win that the Marlins could have hoped for in a losing situation).
Regardless, this was a great read; didn't catch it the first time around!

That was my point. It was a losing situation. Do I like the fact that the Marlins got Hanley in this deal? Absolutely, I love it. But as of right now the Marlins traded a potential Cy Young winner and an All Star third baseman for an All Star shortstop and.....well we don't know yet. Sanchez just had shoulder surgery , Garcia and Delgado are still unknowns. Could Sanchez come back and be an ace? Maybe. Could Delgado and Garcia be shutdown arms in the pen? Sure, anything is possible. However as it stands right now, I don't think that is a trade the Marlins make with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. Oh yeah, let me not forget the money that was saved.

Just seeing Beckett and Lowell playing so well is a bit depressing.

sterlingice · 10-13-2007, 09:16 AM

I'd like to put forth that I was on record multiple times that offseason wondering why the Marlins were salary dumping Lowell and thus devaluing the pitchers they were trying to trade.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...d.php?p=965444
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...d.php?p=840548
http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...d.php?p=839659

SI

11-22-2005, 07:48 AM	#52
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	I don't see what's not to like for either side in this deal. If you start with the proposition that the Marlins have to cut salary, then Mike Lowell is an albatross and Beckett is getting too good for even an arbitration salary. But the only way to get rid of Lowell without paying 75% of his salary is to package him with a marketable commodity, and Beckett is certainly that. In exchange, they get a rookie starting SS, a highly regarded pitching prospect, and another minor league pitcher. They cut salary and fill a hole at SS. The Red Sox give up prospects for a potential replacement #1 starter for Schilling after this year and either a new 3rd baseman, which they need, or trade bait to get someone else they'd rather have (the Twins are reportedly interested in Lowell). Both teams gave up something and took a risk. That's what happens in trades. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

11-22-2005, 09:10 AM	#53
miami_fan Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Land O Lakes FL	To echo Ksyrup article http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald...d/13230541.htm We deserve to lose more than Josh Beckett. We deserve to lose this baseball team. We are, bar none, the worst major-league city in North America. We are the only area anywhere on this continent that could draw 800,000 fans below league average for a 2004 defending champion that was playoff-relevant until the season's last month. Tampa Bay and Kansas City were the only two major-league markets with worse attendance than Florida's last season, but at least their excuse was last place, the two worst records in the league and a combined 71 games out of first. If the Devil Rays and Royals had been one game ahead of Roger Clemens for the wild card with a month remaining, as the Marlins were, they would have been filling their stadiums as if the seats were made of cash. But last-place Pittsburgh, 33 games out, drew more fans per game than Florida last season. So did last-place Seattle, 26 games out. And last-place Colorado, which fielded a Triple A team last season. NO APPRECIATION Spoiled South Florida has zero appreciation for what the Marlins have given us. This team has won two championships in the past decade. That's as many as the White Sox and Red Sox have combined in the past 90 years. No South Florida sports franchise has earned our support more than this one. But taxpayers have built not one but two basketball arenas a few blocks from each other and a hockey arena for a sport with very little following here while never giving the Marlins anything beyond a yawn. So now Beckett and Mike Lowell go to Boston for prospects and promises, and it feels like the first step in a bitter, sad, painful dismantling. Can't blame management. It has done everything it possibly can, bleeding money. Owner Jeffrey Loria has spent plenty on baseball. The same can't be said for South Florida. So don't complain if Beckett is only the first pebble in an avalanche that sends this entire franchise eventually out of town. We lead the league in excuses. Too much rain. Too much heat. Don't like where the park is. It's a stadium built for football. (Cue the baby wailing here.) All those things were true in 1993, too, when the Marlins drew 37,838 a game for a bad team. It wasn't less hot or less wet then. Where did the people go? Thirty-four bucks for four tickets, four hot dogs, four sodas and a program is about the best value in South Florida entertainment. If we were as good at support as we are at making excuses, the Marlins would be the Yankees. Baseball continues to set attendance records while South Florida sets indifferent records. Again, no city in North America could win this way and draw this poorly. Not one. Wayne Huizenga didn't let the feel-good of 1997 echo into 1998 before his fire sale. But Loria let the cheers of 2003 echo into 2004 and 2005, trying to build a fan base, and we failed him, so now it looks like he is giving up. There likely will be a lot of noise in coming days from the likes of Carlos Delgado if he is traded about betrayal and lies, and it will make for easy headlines, but Loria deserves no wrath here. LORIA SABOTAGED He was sabotaged by a bad stadium, a bad lease, an indifferent fan base, an underachieving team and too many politicians who spent a lot of time in the great seats during the World Series and in front of the cameras at the parade but got good and lost when it came time to find the few extra million that separated this team from its new stadium. The Marlins will be worse in 2006. That seems inevitable. The prospects from Boston are good, but you can't win at this level with Jason Vargas as your second starter when you wheeze to 83-79 with him as your fourth guy behind Beckett and A.J. Burnett. Beckett is a loss that stings more than the departures of Moises Alou or Pudge Rodriguez or Derrek Lee, because he is an overwhelming, young arm headed into its prime. He has the kind of stuff, confidence and youth that could make him an All-Star for the next decade. Alas, all his future success will have to be elsewhere. Not unlike this entire Marlins team. For those of you who are un-familiar with Le Batard, he is one of the biggest homers/apologist in the South Florida media. You can actually take his criticism to the nth power. I am pretty confident that I have been to more Marlins games in the last five years (15-20) than at least 85 percent of the population in South Florida and I only made it down their 2 weeks out of the year during that time. Pathetic Last edited by miami_fan : 11-22-2005 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Added the link though you may have to register

11-22-2005, 09:22 AM	#54
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	I agree. Dave Hyde's article, which I posted on the first page, reads almost exactly the same way. I don't even live in South Florida, but I've been to 3 games in the past 3 years, which is more than I bet a lot of so-called baseball fans who live within 30 minutes of the stadium have been to. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete."

11-22-2005, 10:02 AM	#55
JasonC23 High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Huntley, IL, USA	Baseball is not broken in this case, Florida is. __________________ "I'm A god. I'm not THE God...I don't think." Bill Murray, Groundhog Day

11-22-2005, 10:38 AM	#57
Coop High School JV Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: NJ	I went to 8 marlins games and I live in fucking New Jersey. Probably more than those so called 'fans' in Florida. The marlins need to move. __________________ eNFL-Carolina Panthers Xbox Live- Coop421 Last edited by Coop : 11-22-2005 at 10:39 AM.

11-22-2005, 10:12 AM	#56
Crapshoot Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2003	Eh LaBatard is one of the few good writers out there, willing to channel some degree of intelligence into his work, unlike the plaskhe's, Woody Paige's, or Jay Mariotti's of the world. One person does not a fanbase make.

11-22-2005, 11:22 AM	#58
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	They should move the Marlins somewhere like Jersey/NY. That metro area could likely support another team. Even if it wasnt as supported as even the Mets are, it would still be bigger than it is in Florida.

10-12-2007, 08:02 PM	#60
miami_fan Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Land O Lakes FL	Upon further (and future review) Bump I think the Marlins got robbed in this one. __________________ "Do not be indifferent in the face of historical lies. Do not be indifferent when you see the past being exploited for the needs of contemporary politics. Do not be indifferent when any minority suffers discrimination. For it's the essence of democracy that the majority wields the power, but at the same time, the rights of the minority must be respected." Marian Turski- former prisoner of the Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration and death camp

10-12-2007, 08:12 PM	#61
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	A lot of you were wrong.

10-12-2007, 08:24 PM	#62
Crapshoot Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2003	No, it was a win win - The Marlins got the guy who may have been the best player in the NL this year (Hanley Ramirez), and a few useful arms (Anibal Sanchez was pretty good last year). More importantly, they dumped $13 million in salary (from their perspective). The Red Sox "won" because of Lowell turning in an amazing performance, but the cost in dollars was a lot higher.

10-12-2007, 08:27 PM	#63
ThunderingHERD College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	Yeh, I'm confused...seems to me like it turned out better for the Marlins than anybody expected. __________________ "I'm losing my edge--to better looking people... with better ideas... and more talent. And who are actually really, really nice." "Everyone's a voyeurist--they're watching me watch them watch me right now."

10-12-2007, 08:28 PM	#64
lighthousekeeper College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	yeah looks kinda like a win-win (at least the closest thing to a win that the Marlins could have hoped for in a losing situation). Regardless, this was a great read; didn't catch it the first time around! __________________ ...

10-12-2007, 08:33 PM	#65
Young Drachma Dark Cloud Join Date: Apr 2001	I still think moving the Marlins would be awesome. __________________ Current dynasty: Up The Scots: Play To Clinch Tennis Dynasty \| OOTP Mod: Managerial Strategy Files \| GM Excel Competitive Balance Tax/Revenue Sharing Calc \| FBCB Mods on Github

10-12-2007, 08:37 PM	#66
Toddzilla Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burke, VA	Seems like everyone who thought this was a bad trade - for either side - was very very wrong. The Sox added the SP they needed, and the Marlins got arguably the best all-around player in the NL...Jose Reyes goes to sleep at night and dreams he was as good as Hanley Ramirez.

10-13-2007, 12:02 AM	#71
Galaril Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2004	Here is an interesting trade someone in the Boston media mentioned. Papelbon, Bucholtz and Lester for Johann Santana and some prospects.

10-13-2007, 08:26 AM	#74
Logan Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NYC	Somewhere, both Michelle Wie and Elmo are smiling.

10-13-2007, 09:16 AM	#76
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	I'd like to put forth that I was on record multiple times that offseason wondering why the Marlins were salary dumping Lowell and thus devaluing the pitchers they were trying to trade. http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...d.php?p=965444 http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...d.php?p=840548 http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...d.php?p=839659 SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

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