So Kobe has 72 points....

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

He shot 61% from the field. Do you think his teammates would have done better? Is this about winning or conforming to your silly notions of how basketball should be played? Do you find Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game unimpressive for the same reasons?

I know we'll never find out, will we? We never will the entire season either...

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Wade practically already did it with Odom, and Butler as his main players... It was in the East, so that has some affect on the outcome but still he made them better players... Kobe makes noone better but Kobe.

And what seed did they get that year?

[cmp]

Well, I am quite amazed at that game tonight. If you're not amazed at what Kobe did than I don't know what else you would like to see. What he did was incredible.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

And what seed did they get that year?

A higher seed then Kobe and Lakers have assured right now.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

And I was just griping about this to Bug and somebody else. Look, he sat out against Dallas rather than go for 80+ because he didn't want to show the Mavericks up. Dallas, incidentally, is 31-10.

Toronto? 14-26, and Kobe apparently thought the Lakers were in severe enough danger of losing that he played all the way (despite the fact that the Lakers were up 6 after 3 quarters. Yes, they were losing at halftime, but c'mon).

So what's the deal here? Is he insulting Dallas by insinuating that they're such an easy opponent that his team can beat them without him playing for 25% of the game, or is he insulting Toronto by not showing them the same courtesy he showed Dallas?

Either way, at best he shows a disingenuous character by throwing up 80 tonight. Either you're a classy guy who wants to "do the right thing," or you're showing a public face that doesn't at all match what your character really is.

I know which one I think is the case here.

I think he simply decided to "go for it". Hell, what would any of us do? If I had scored 60+ points in 3 quarters I'd want to shoot for a record too, and that doesn't make it any less worthy of being called an achievement - It's not like he missed a shot off his own basket to pick up a rebound for a triple double.

I didn't see the game, so I don't know if Toronto actually did much to try stop him (flashback to that final game of the season where the Clippers basically allowed David Robinson to score at will in a blowout that led to him beating out Shaq for the leading scorer), but this is an awesome achievement for any professional basketballer and I see nothing wrong with him deciding to play the 4th Q this time around.

[MrBug708]

I dont think pitchers should be allowed to complete a no hitter if their team is up by more then 3 runs.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I dont think pitchers should be allowed to complete a no hitter if their team is up by more then 3 runs.

Especially not if he's Roger Clemens or somebody and we all hate him and think he's selfish.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

A higher seed then Kobe and Lakers have assured right now.

4th seed but the 5th seed was the Hornets....

[Oilers9911]

Kobe is a disingenuos, lying, cheating, possibly criminal sack of crap. But the man can play ball. Awesome performance.

[kingfc22]

I can't believe I'm actually in a sports thread where I'm on the same side as MrBug. It feels so wrong.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Eagles, just curious - do you really think that if Kobe and LeBron (or Wade, or take your pick) swapped places with Kobe that they would have the Lakers with more than 23 wins this year?

I can see where this criticism arose last year. I understand that Kobe has always looked out for Kobe, to the detriment of the Lakers dynasty team. But I'm really struggling to see how someone can think that Kobe is holding back the 2005-2006 Lakers through selfish play. Right now they are the #6 seed in the West. Do you think the Lakers have better talent than this?

Yes, I think Lebron could set up Lamar and Kwame (as well as all the other Lakers) much better than Kobe does. Yes, Kwame has been a disappointment in Washington. Yes, he is a disappointment in LA too, but I bet Lebron could get him some sweet looks and make him useful. I think Lamar was thrive with Lebron.

[hoopsguy]

Deattribution, let me correct my question: do you think they would be better than 23-19 at this point (instead of would they have 23 wins all year, which was not what I intended to ask).

Wade did win with Odom and Butler as teammates ... lets pull up the rosters from that Heat team and this Lakers team:

2005-2006 Lakers
PG Parker, Vujacic
SG Bryant, McKie, D. Green, Wafer
SF Odom, George, Walton, Profit
PF K. Brown, Cook, Medvadenko
C Mihm, Bynum

2003-2004 Heat
PG: Wade, Alston, Coles
SG: E. Jones
SF: C. Butler, Beasley, R. Butler, J. Wallace
PF: Odom, Haslem, S. Walker, M. Allen
C: B. Grant, Zhizhi, L. Woods

I'm guessing I don't have all the positions exactly right on the Heat roster so please feel free to reference the following link if you want to validate this team:
hxxp://airtom24.free.fr/ChicagoBulls/Saison0304/Roster/Miami.php

But I'm pretty confident I would rather have that Heat team if you take Kobe and Wade off their respective teams. Different people would have different opinions on how much better one team is than the other, but that Miami team finished 42-40.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

I can't believe I'm actually in a sports thread where I'm on the same side as MrBug. It feels so wrong.

It's LA sports, no worries...

[ThunderingHERD]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Wade practically already did it with Odom, and Butler as his main players... It was in the East, so that has some affect on the outcome but still he made them better players... Kobe makes noone better but Kobe.

With Wade in Miami, Caron Butler averaged 9.2 PTS 4.8 and shot only 38% from the field. With Kobe in LA, Butler averaged 15.5 PTS 5.8 REB and shot 45%. Yeh, Wade definately made him better. Lamar Odom's numbers were virtually identical, except that he takes less shots, but better ones. His average is down 2 points and his FG% is up 3-4%.

How does that play into your theory? If they were playing on a team centered around one selfish player, shouldn't their FG% fall as they had to create their own shots? The fact is that even though his assist numbers are down sharply this year, Kobe is still among the top SG in the league in assists. Your argument is completely uninformed.

[hoopsguy]

Eagles, your argument for Lebron would work better for me if the Cavs had made the playoffs in his first two years. Or if they had a better record than 21-17 this year. Or if his defense was on par with Kobe's - or at least his defensive intensity gave the impression that it would get to Kobe's level.

But Lebron does hit about 4% higher on his field goal attempts and average about two more assists per game. And his next game-winner will be his first.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Deattribution, let me correct my question: do you think they would be better than 23-19 at this point (instead of would they have 23 wins all year, which was not what I intended to ask).

Wade did win with Odom and Butler as teammates ... lets pull up the rosters from that Heat team and this Lakers team:

2005-2006 Lakers
PG Parker, Vujacic
SG Bryant, McKie, D. Green, Wafer
SF Odom, George, Walton, Profit
PF K. Brown, Cook, Medvadenko
C Mihm, Bynum

2003-2004 Heat
PG: Wade, Alston, Coles
SG: E. Jones
SF: C. Butler, Beasley, R. Butler, J. Wallace
PF: Odom, Haslem, S. Walker, M. Allen
C: B. Grant, Zhizhi, L. Woods

I'm guessing I don't have all the positions exactly right on the Heat roster so please feel free to reference the following link if you want to validate this team:
hxxp://airtom24.free.fr/ChicagoBulls/Saison0304/Roster/Miami.php

But I'm pretty confident I would rather have that Heat team if you take Kobe and Wade off their respective teams. Different people would have different opinions on how much better one team is than the other, but that Miami team finished 42-40.

And I'd probably agree, the Heat team might have been better... but Kobe is also better then Wade was at that point... He's still probably a better player, but Wade is a better team player.

Since you asked, I just answered - but to clarify some, obviously Kobe is responsible in almost full for their record as it stands.. But I don't think Odom (Butler gone?) and some of the other players they have are being properly utilized by their key player.

Like I said, it's great when he scores 50 and they win, and it's the teams biggest glaring flaw and eventual downfall when he scores 50 and they lose.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Eagles, your argument for Lebron would work better for me if the Cavs had made the playoffs in his first two years. Or if they had a better record than 21-17 this year. Or if his defense was on par with Kobe's - or at least his defensive intensity gave the impression that it would get to Kobe's level.

But Lebron does hit about 4% higher on his field goal attempts and average about two more assists per game. And his next game-winner will be his first.

I would argue that Lebron's teammates haven't been as good as Kobe's. LeBron's numbers are more impressive overall, and he has made his teammates look better than in years before Lebron arrived. I agree that Kobe is better defensively, but Lebron sets up his teammates much better than Kobe does. He makes his teammates better offensively.

[ThunderingHERD]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Like I said, it's great when he scores 50 and they win, and it's the teams biggest glaring flaw and eventual downfall when he scores 50 and they lose.

No, it isn't. All that's changing is your perception of it. Your uninformed perceptions seem to be all that your opinions are based on.
"Everybody knows Kobe's a ball hog!" "Wade's a real team player!" "With Randy Moss out of the picture, it's going to be smooth sailing for Minnesota."

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I think he simply decided to "go for it". Hell, what would any of us do?

I don't have a problem with him going for it.

I have a problem with him talking out of both sides of his mouth.

I'm incredibly disappointed that, at first glance, the media didn't have the balls to confront him with his statement after the Dallas game and ask him what changed.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

No, it isn't. All that's changing is your perception of it. Your uninformed perceptions seem to be all that your opinions are based on.
"Everybody knows Kobe's a ball hog!" "Wade's a real team player!" "With Randy Moss out of the picture, it's going to be smooth sailing for Minnesota."

lol

[hoopsguy]

You really think the Cleveland roster isn't as good as the LA roster?

Cleveland: Snow and D. Jones at PG, Larry Hughes at SG (yes, he has missed 10 games), Gooden at PF and Big Z at center, with Donyell Marshall and Eric Snow pulling down minutes - I honestly don't think that LA has as much talent.

Given that the Lakers and Cavs essentially have the same record, I guess the next area I look is at home games: 19/19 home vs road for Cleveland and 20/22 home/road for the Lakers. Again a push.

Short of a strenght of schedule rating that indicates Cleveland has played a killer schedule while LA has gotten cupcakes, I'm having a hard time justifying James generating more value on the basketball court than Bryant. But I do understand that measuring something like this is subjective.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

No, it isn't. All that's changing is your perception of it. Your uninformed perceptions seem to be all that your opinions are based on.
"Everybody knows Kobe's a ball hog!" "Wade's a real team player!" "With Randy Moss out of the picture, it's going to be smooth sailing for Minnesota."

Yeah my perception has really changed when almost all my post have identical points with more elaboration.

You say that Butler was playing better and Odom was playing the same, how many games did the Lakers win? There's obvious plenty of other things that fit into that other then just Kobe, but if he's doing better or the same with Wade's former players why were the Lakers picking 10th in the draft?

[MikeVic]

Hats off to Kobe. I hate him, but respect him.

[ThunderingHERD]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Yeah my perception has really changed when almost all my post have identical points with more elaboration.

That wasn't my point at all.

You say that Butler was playing better and Odom was playing the same, how many games did the Lakers win? There's obvious plenty of other things that fit into that other then just Kobe, but if he's doing better or the same with Wade's former players why were the Lakers picking 10th in the draft?

Because there are more than 3 players on a basketball team? And the east was god awful that year. Hell, even last year with the east much improved the Lakers record was significantly better against eastern teams.

[cmp]

For people that don't like that Kobe kept playing in the 4th and kept scoring I really don't see what the big is. The Lakers only started the 4th up by 6 points. Of course Kobe is going to be in the game and trying to build the lead. They ended up winning by 18, its not like it was some 30 points blowout with Kobe still in the game.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

Because there are more than 3 players on a basketball team?

A Laker fan that admits there is more then just Kobe on the team?

Won't that get you kicked out of the KB fan club?

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Yeah my perception has really changed when almost all my post have identical points with more elaboration.

You say that Butler was playing better and Odom was playing the same, how many games did the Lakers win? There's obvious plenty of other things that fit into that other then just Kobe, but if he's doing better or the same with Wade's former players why were the Lakers picking 10th in the draft?

Seeing as how the original coach had given up, I'd say that there really wasnt much fight in the Lakers under Hamblen

[ThunderingHERD]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

A Laker fan that admits there is more then just Kobe on the team?

Won't that get you kicked out of the KB fan club?

I'm not a Lakers fan nor do I consider myself a Kobe fan. But thanks for failing to respond to the points once again.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

I'm not a Lakers fan nor do I consider myself a Kobe fan. But thanks for failing to respond to the points once again.

What point would you like me to respond to? the fact that I already said the East was different and the fact that I already said there were plenty other circumstances?

Care to repeat me a few more times and say I'm not covering your point?

Another fact is Wade had more assist last year then KB has ever had in any season, ever. So obviously he's not got an issue with being a team player. He didn't play a full season, he also had a coach that quit on him (sound familiar?) and he had a less then spectacular team that never did anything in years and still took them to the playoffs.

I'm not saying Kobe should have taken them to the finals last year, or even the playoffs, but they were wretched.. and they look better this year, but there are too many games where he scores all those points with his team standing around watching for naut. He's not a team player.

[cmp]

I'm the furthest thing from a Lakers fan but right now Kobe is the best player in the League. What he has been doing over the last few months has just been amazing. People will discredit him because he takes so many shots but he is still shooting 45% which is not too bad. Everyone knows he will be the one taking all the shots yet they still cannot stop him. He is on another level from anyone else right now.

[Deattribution]

And nobody has said he isn't the best player in the league, individually he plays better then anyone, but like ThunderingHERD said - there's more then 3 (1 in this case) players on a team (thanks for certifying my point btw).

[cmp]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Another fact is Wade had more assist last year then KB has ever had in any season, ever. So obviously he's not got an issue with being a team player. He didn't play a full season, he also had a coach that quit on him (sound familiar?) and he had a less then spectacular team that never did anything in years and still took them to the playoffs.

Wade was not the only reason that team got into the playoffs. If it wasn't for Eddie Jones and Lamar Odom there's not a chance that team would have gotten in the playoffs. Put Kobe in Wade's place and that team wins 50 games.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Another fact is Wade had more assist last year then KB has ever had in any season, ever. So obviously he's not got an issue with being a team player.

Not really too sure since I really stopped following basketball a few years ago, but shouldn't a PG always have more assists than a SG? I mean the SG does stand for Shooting Guard, right?

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

You really think the Cleveland roster isn't as good as the LA roster?

Cleveland: Snow and D. Jones at PG, Larry Hughes at SG (yes, he has missed 10 games), Gooden at PF and Big Z at center, with Donyell Marshall and Eric Snow pulling down minutes - I honestly don't think that LA has as much talent.

Given that the Lakers and Cavs essentially have the same record, I guess the next area I look is at home games: 19/19 home vs road for Cleveland and 20/22 home/road for the Lakers. Again a push.

Short of a strenght of schedule rating that indicates Cleveland has played a killer schedule while LA has gotten cupcakes, I'm having a hard time justifying James generating more value on the basketball court than Bryant. But I do understand that measuring something like this is subjective.

Yeah, I really do. Snow is not nearly as good as he was with Philly (at least in the Cleveland games I've watched.) Damon Jones is decent, but I think his numbers have been inflated by Dwyane and now Lebron. Donyell Marshall is not as good as Lamar. Gooden is better than Kwame, but I think LeBron could make Kwame look as good as Gooden. I don't think Gooden would look as good with Kobe as his running mate. As far as the Big Z, he is good when his health is at 100%, but that seems to be rare.

[ThunderingHERD]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

And nobody has said he isn't the best player in the league, individually he plays better then anyone, but like ThunderingHERD said - there's more then 3 (1 in this case) players on a team (thanks for certifying my point btw).

Really? YOur point was that there are more than three players on a team? Well, you should have stated it more clearly to begin with and saved everyone some time.

Were you not impressed with Michael Jordan either? Jordan averaged more shots per game in his prime than Kobe has. I guess neither of them understand the game of basketball like you do.

I'm done with this argument unless you plan to provide some sort of support for your inane statements.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by dervack

Not really too sure since I really stopped following basketball a few years ago, but shouldn't a PG always have more assists than a SG? I mean the SG does stand for Shooting Guard, right?

Yeah but Wade isn't playing PG.

[DeToxRox]

C'mon, Kobe is taking all sorts of shots, but the team is over .500 and in the playoff hunt. Everyone predicted this team would be a lottery team before the season started, and now they're a potential playoff team.

It's all because of Kobe, so I'd cut the guy a little slack.

[Eaglesfan27]

I'm not trying to say that Kobe isn't having a great season. I'm just saying I'd rather build a team around Lebron.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

Really? YOur point was that there are more than three players on a team? Well, you should have stated it more clearly to begin with and saved everyone some time.

Were you not impressed with Michael Jordan either? Jordan averaged more shots per game in his prime than Kobe has. I guess neither of them understand the game of basketball like you do.

I'm done with this argument unless you plan to provide some sort of support for your inane statements.

Haha, and what is your point?

That Kobe is MJ? that Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread? what?

I didn't think it'd lite such a fire under you to say he isn't a team player and individual accomplishments in a team game (esp like the NBA) while stellar and a nice feat aren't what makes a player great.

Since the example was used, I know everytime Roger Clemens pitches a perfect game that the team is gonna win. Can you honestly say with all certainy that everytime Kobe scores 80 his team is gonna get the W?

[dervack]

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Haha, and what is your point?

That Kobe is MJ? that Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread? what?

I didn't think it'd lite such a fire under you to say he isn't a team player and individual accomplishments in a team game (esp like the NBA) while stellar and a nice feat aren't what makes a player great.

Since the example was used, I know everytime Roger Clemens pitches a perfect game that the team is gonna win. Can you honestly say with all certainy that everytime Kobe scores 80 his team is gonna get the W?

Sorry, but that's a stupid arguement. You going to tell me that every time Wade has 10 assists, his team will win?

[DeToxRox]

Kobe gets the league max to score, not to pass. Yeah he's supposed to be a team guy but if you shell out that kind of dough, you better be ready to bring in guys to play around him, and not guys for him to play with, because it's not gonna' happen. And I think what he's doing now is spectacular, but we'll see what the future holds.

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by dervack

Sorry, but that's a stupid arguement. You going to tell me that every time Wade has 10 assists, his team will win?

I think it was Bug earlier who tried to make the comparison of perfect game vs Kobe's 80, so I was just using that as a reference.

I wasn't saying anything about assist but yeah you're going to see a guy win more with a triple double while you hear about a guy scoring 50 (or there abouts) every night on sportscenter in a loss,

Individual excellence for a pitcher pays off alot more in the MLB than individual excellence in the NBA.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

As for shot selection by his teammates

Odom - 12%
Brown - 20%
Sasha - 20%
George - 0%
Mihm - 60%
Smush - 45%

I'd say that the Lakers are easily the worst team in the NBA if you take off their top two players. Hell, I'd say top player at this juncture.

Man, if those were my passing options, I guess I wouldn't pass the ball either

Damn, amazing freaking performance.

SI

[ThunderingHERD]

Since the example was used, I know everytime Roger Clemens pitches a perfect game that the team is gonna win. Can you honestly say with all certainy that everytime Kobe scores 80 his team is gonna get the W?

Huh? Where the hell did that come from? I'm cracking up just trying to figure out how you might have considered this to be a good point before you posted it. If a guy gets 25 assists in a game, can you "say with all certainty" that his team is gonna get the W?

But yes, I can "honestly say with all certainty" that every time Kobe has scored 80 his team has got the W.

Originally Posted by Deattribution

Haha, and what is your point?

That Kobe is MJ? that Kobe is the greatest thing since sliced bread? what?

I didn't think it'd lite such a fire under you to say he isn't a team player and individual accomplishments in a team game (esp like the NBA) while stellar and a nice feat aren't what makes a player great.

My point is that Kobe's great play contributes to wins just as much as any other player of his caliber--regardless of your opinions of him which are based on nothing substantive. Until you come up with something substantive to support your laughable positions, I'm just gonna duck out and revel in not being you, k?

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by ThunderingHERD

Huh? Where the hell did that come from? I'm cracking up just trying to figure out how you might have considered this to be a good point before you posted it. If a guy gets 25 assists in a game, can you "say with all certainty" that his team is gonna get the W?

But yes, I can "honestly say with all certainty" that every time Kobe has scored 80 his team has got the W.



My point is that Kobe's great play contributes to wins just as much as any other player of his caliber--regardless of your opinions of him which are based on nothing substantive. Until you come up with something substantive to support your laughable positions, I'm just gonna duck out and revel in not being you, k?

You only further support what I'm saying about you being an obvious Laker fan by constantly making this a personal issue, and if anything I revel in not taking this so seriously that I'm pathetic enough to personally attack someone.

Have fun not returning to the thread in 3 minutes.

If you actually read the thread, instead of making statements about what I'm saying (apparently you aren't reading those either) you'd realize where my reference came from.

[Schmidty]

Regardless of all of your ridiculous arguments about Kobe Fraudyant, I would love to see him get 81 points against the Pistons or Spurs. If he ever did that, it would be because he took 95% of the shots. The Fakers would get blown out of the water in a game like that.

Jordan (who I despise, but respect) scored a LOT, but he made the players around him better; all Kobe does is leech shots and glorify himself. He is a joke. He has the most talent of anyone in the NBA and the least amount of heart and desire/understanding as to how to win. The only reason he has his rings is because of two things: Shaq (who I hate), and intelligent teamates. Phil Jackson (who I hate), knew how to win and how to use the players he had to win. Kobe has forgotten that and become like Elvis in Las Vegas - Glitz with zero substance.

Kobe will never again be more than a bludgeon-point-scoring-non-winner until he realizes that he is a part of the team, not THE team. He will score 10,000,000 points when it doesn't matter, and get beat when it does.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Regardless of all of your ridiculous arguments about Kobe Fraudyant, I would love to see him get 81 points against the Pistons or Spurs. If he ever did that, it would be because he took 95% of the shots. The Fakers would get blown out of the water in a game like that.

Jordan (who I despise, but respect) scored a LOT, but he made the players around him better; all Kobe does is leech shots and glorify himself. He is a joke. He has the most talent of anyone in the NBA and the least amount of heart and desire/understanding as to how to win. The only reason he has his rings is because of two things: Shaq (who I hate), and intelligent teamates. Phil Jackson (who I hate), knew how to win and how to use the players he had to win. Kobe has forgotten that and become like Elvis in Las Vegas - Glitz with zero substance.

Kobe will never again be more than a bludgeon-point-scoring-non-winner until he realizes that he is a part of the team, not THE team. He will score 10,000,000 points when it doesn't matter, and get beat when it does.

On the rag?

Obviously Shaq didnt make Kobe better as Kobe is playing much better now

[Chief Rum]

It's amazing to me when you can hate an athlete so much, you can't even give him a shred of credit on an incredible night like tonight. Some people really need to take a step back from their hatred and acknowledge the amazing when it happens, even if their personal Satan (for Heaven knows what reasons) is the one doing it.

For instance, I could not stand Steve Young or John Elway, but that doesn't stop me from including them both in the top ten QBs I have ever seen play.

[Karlifornia]

Schmidty, I don't understand why you hate Shaq, Jordan, or Phil Jackson. Is it like a respect kind of hate?

[Deattribution]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

It's amazing to me when you can hate an athlete so much, you can't even give him a shred of credit on an incredible night like tonight. Some people really need to take a step back from their hatred and acknowledge the amazing when it happens, even if their personal Satan (for Heaven knows what reasons) is the one doing it.

For instance, I could not stand Steve Young or John Elway, but that doesn't stop me from including them both in the top ten QBs I have ever seen play.

Who hasn't said it was a great achievement? or that Kobe wasn't a great player?

Just because everyone isn't dancing in the streets over it doesn't mean they aren't giving him a 'shred of credit'.