POL - Cheney: Iran faces consequences

[Bubba Wheels]

Murtha was on Hardball tonight. He says 1. The Army is broke and depleted 2. Equipment is worn-out 3. Enlistments are down 4. Everybody knows the last 3 so we can't 'push anyone around' anymore. 5. Iraq is in civil war, not going to be.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

Agreed as I mentioned above. I believe that France of all nations would probably spearhead this charge, along with the majority of Europe. Europe in case you haven't noticed is getting pretty tired of the Muslim "ideals".

Even Russia and China have been banging the gong that Iran with Nukes is a bad idea.

"Ideas", while having some significance to international politics, is usually trumped by "interests". In this case, Europe, while finding Iranian political ideals noxious, will try their damnedest to not let that get in the way of their economic relations. Even if they were to "spearhead this charge", the Europeans have very little long-range power projection capability to do much.

Russia and China are banging no gongs here, they are pushing the compromise now because they don't want to have to veto a security council resolution later (which I think is not that far-fetched). The large players on the Asian continent (China, India, and Japan) are dependent on Iranian oil. It is very unlikely that even Japan will want to rock the boat very much on this issue. Finally, much like the Chinese, the Russians have very strong economic relations with Teheran--Russia will have very much to lose in the event of multi-lateral sanctions. That is why they are very keen on resolving the standoff before it escalates...

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Murtha was on Hardball tonight. He says 1. The Army is broke and depleted 2. Equipment is worn-out 3. Enlistments are down 4. Everybody knows the last 3 so we can't 'push anyone around' anymore. 5. Iraq is in civil war, not going to be.

We are in NO position to get involved in any additional long term conflicts for the reasons stated above, and quite frankly there has to be a point where the US stops trying to be Nanny to the rest of the World.

There is plenty here at home that needs the resources and attention we are spreading way too thin everywhere else.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

2. Equipment is worn-out

An article I read over the weekend mentioned a Southern California law enforcement agency donating some of its body armor to a unit in Iraq because the stuff it has is better than what the Pentagon is issuing.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Bubba Wheels

Murtha was on Hardball tonight. He says 1. The Army is broke and depleted 2. Equipment is worn-out 3. Enlistments are down 4. Everybody knows the last 3 so we can't 'push anyone around' anymore. 5. Iraq is in civil war, not going to be.

Shocked. Shocked I tell you!

People don't want to fight wars based on deceit.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dutch

The good news for you is that this will certainly drag out until Hillary is in charge. Then we will leave the poor Iranians alone and no doubt America will have a 1,000 years of peace and security.

Dutch, you make the mistake in believing that I'm a Democrat and/or a Hillary supporter.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

See, but you don't think they differ - you already said it's not in the US best interests for Iran to acquire nukes. So Israel's and the US's interests, here, are identical. Yet you think we should leave Israel to fend for itself. The only way that begins to make sense in my mind is if you are, for some reason, anti-Israel.

Also, you do realize that the US is hardly leading the charge on this particular topic?

I'm sure Russia, China, and the UK don't want Iran to have nukes, either.

$10 says if Iran proceeds none of them invade.

Just a guess.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

Dutch, you make the mistake in believing that I'm a Democrat and/or a Hillary supporter.

"It's not who you are on the inside, it's what you say that defines you." Or something like that.

[RendeR]

Hypothetical:

What happens to Isreal if the United States withdraws its econimic, military and political support tomorrow?

Followup:

If the result above is the utter elimination of Isreal as a world state, through whatever means, what happens to the middle east?


Discuss.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Discuss.

No.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Dutch

"It's not who you are on the inside, it's what you say that defines you." Or something like that.

Is that about Hillary or me?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

No.

Why? I'm seriously curious to see where things would go if we stop pandering to Isreal? I have no qualms admitting that I dislike their politics entirely. I have serious problems with our constant and unwavering support of them, generally to our detriment.

I want to hear other's opinions on what they think might become of the middle east if we stopped hand holding the one major state that is the focus of the problems in that region.

My opnions TOTALLY aside, what would happen?

[st.cronin]

To withdraw all support for Israel is to take Hamas' position that Israel has no right to exist.

[Bubba Wheels]

Well, that's always a good global strategy. Cut your ties to your real friends and allies while funneling money and arms to those who would like to kill you. Brilliant.

[ISiddiqui]

I liked astrofan better when he was saying Shawn Alexander was overrated. He was just as crazy, but at least that position wasn't scary.

What will happen with Iran is the EXACT same thing that happened with North Korea. We'll talk big, but in the end do nothing. Iran is far more powerful than Iraq and mountainous to boot. And guess what, I doubt Iran will launch anything at anyone. For all its rhetoric against Israel and Sunni states, it hasn't launched an invasion against anyone (the Iran-Iraq War was started by Iraq). And recall, Iran was the country that even though called the US "The Great Satan" was willing to trade hostages for arms with the US.

I find Iran to be more bark than bite.

[Dutch]

I'm seriously curious to see where things would go if we stop pandering to Isreal?

I personally am not interested in seeing American soldiers fight for Israel.

But Israel is a friend of the USA, just like England, Germany, France, and Japan are. At the end of the day, you don't abandon your friends who are being picked on by the local bully in hopes that the bully will in turn leave you alone.

Thinking that allowing terror groups to bully America = Peace is false hope. Noble. Thoughtful even. But unrealistic. We should at least know that by now.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I liked astrofan better when he was saying Shawn Alexander was overrated. He was just as crazy, but at least that position wasn't scary.

What will happen with Iran is the EXACT same thing that happened with North Korea. We'll talk big, but in the end do nothing. Iran is far more powerful than Iraq and mountainous to boot. And guess what, I doubt Iran will launch anything at anyone. For all its rhetoric against Israel and Sunni states, it hasn't launched an invasion against anyone (the Iran-Iraq War was started by Iraq). And recall, Iran was the country that even though called the US "The Great Satan" was willing to trade hostages for arms with the US.

I find Iran to be more bark than bite.

That seems pretty spot on. I would just worry that this might be like the boy who cried wolf; when there finally is a wolf, will we care?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Dutch

At the end of the day, you don't abandon your friends...

Isn't that kind of what we are doing to Musharraf? Bush publically said he wasn't getting the same deal that the US gave to India... right in front of his face, with all the Pakistani press there. It seems we basically gave him to the wolves (to explain whats the point of being the US's friend if Pakistan still gets screwed over and India gains)

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

That seems pretty spot on. I would just worry that this might be like the boy who cried wolf; when there finally is a wolf, will we care?

Good point... on this issue of nuclear proliferation, I think we may care a little, but just not be able to do anything about it.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Isn't that kind of what we are doing to Musharraf? Bush publically said he wasn't getting the same deal that the US gave to India... right in front of his face, with all the Pakistani press there. It seems we basically gave him to the wolves (to explain whats the point of being the US's friend if Pakistan still gets screwed over and India gains)

[clintl]

Well, I don't think Musharraf could have expected the India deal after Pakistan's chief nuclear scientist helped North Korea a few years ago. India has been better behaved with the technology. But India should never have been given the deal, either.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by clintl

Well, I don't think Musharraf could have expected the India deal after Pakistan's chief nuclear scientist helped North Korea a few years ago. India has been better behaved with the technology. But India should never have been given the deal, either.

Not saying he should have, but to dog him out on Pakistani national TV in front of everyone... that's just asking to cause trouble for Musharraf and his fragile hold on power.

[clintl]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Not saying he should have, but to dog him out on Pakistani national TV in front of everyone... that's just asking to cause trouble for Musharraf and his fragile hold on power.

I agree with that completely. I'm not sure there was a single moment on that whole trip when Bush did something that was actually in the interests of the US (and the rest of the world, for that matter).

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by clintl

I agree with that completely. I'm not sure there was a single moment on that whole trip when Bush did something that was actually in the interests of the US (and the rest of the world, for that matter).

That holds a lot of weight. I wouldn't expect you to be able to mention anything that Bush has done that's been helpful to anyone.

[astrosfan64]

You guys are seriously crazy.

What makes you think Iran was tougher then Iraq? They are pretty much a wash. Neither nation would be in the top 10 of military powers.
hmmm.....

The US Army is broke? Umm ok.... We are depleted in terms of manpower? WE ONLY LOST 2K people in IRAQ. You guys seriously underestimate the power of the United States.

Israel has taken on the whole region how many times and won?

1. United States 370,700,000,000 $ 
2. China 60,000,000,000 $ 
3. France 45,238,100,000 $ 
4. United Kingdom 42,836,500,000 $ 
5. Japan 42,488,100,000 $ 
6. Germany 35,063,000,000 $ 
7. Italy 28,182,800,000 $ 
8. Saudi Arabia 18,000,000,000 $ 
9. Korea, South 14,522,000,000 $ 
10. Australia 14,120,100,000 $ 
11. India 14,018,800,000 $ 
12. Turkey 12,155,000,000 $ 
13. Brazil 10,439,400,000 $ 
14. Spain 9,906,500,000 $ 
15. Canada 9,801,700,000 $ 
16. Israel 9,110,000,000 $ 
17. Netherlands 8,044,400,000 $ 
18. Taiwan 7,611,700,000 $ 
19. Greece 7,288,900,000 $ 
20. Korea, North 5,217,400,000 $ 
21. Mexico 5,168,300,000 $ 
22. Singapore 4,470,000,000 $ 
23. Sweden 4,395,000,000 $ 
24. Argentina 4,300,000,000 $ 
25. Iran 4,300,000,000 $ 

List of money spent on the military? Yeah, we are broke. Yeah, we don't have any technology.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by astrofan

What makes you think Iran was tougher then Iraq?

Land mass and geography. Oh, and population.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

To withdraw all support for Israel is to take Hamas' position that Israel has no right to exist.

That makes no sense. Stopping the blind support of a country isn't the same thing as saying they have no right to exist. I don't know why you keep repeating that.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Land mass and geography. Oh, and population.

Oh.. don't forget

Iran..

Iran so far away.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

Like I said, I think both sides are nutz. But at least the christians have learned throughout the years that it isn't a good idea to kill people in the name of god. The muslims still haven't learned that.

Since you grossly overgeneralize muslims I'd like to point out that there are still plenty of Christians who believe in killing in the name of God.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

Have a nice discussion guys this is going no where. Their entire existance is to kill the infidels. If you can't "get" that, I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

So your argument is that the goal of all muslims is to kill all non-muslims? Do you even know any muslims?

I think this is all pretty silly. I don't get it at all from a religous stand point.

Ah, so true.

Iran would get a shot off and some of our people would die? How many, I dont' know maybe 1k or 2k? TOPS!

I ask again, are you assuming there would be no armed resistance to the resulting U.S. occupation?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Re-phrasing: Would you rather the US back off, and let them develop nukes?

In the broad scheme of things, I fail to see the difference between them having nukes and Pakistan having nukes. How about we develop a consistent foreign policy with regard to non-proliferation first?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

If the defense of our nation were left up to people like you rexalllsc and Flere back in WW2 era, we would be speaking German right now.

Fuck you, you piece of shit.

My brother is over there, right now, risking his life for principles with which neither he nor I agree but you espouse, while you comfortably sit on your ass and spout off.

I'm married to a Jew, which, as you may or may not remember, is a race that suffered horribly in WWII.

My remaining Polish relatives who lived through that era still deal with the memories of German occupation.

Why don't you just fuck off and die.

[Ryche]

In the grand scheme of things, it seems rather odd for all of these countries that have nuclear weapons to be telling other countries they do not have the right to have them.

[fantastic flying froggies]

Originally Posted by Ryche

In the grand scheme of things, it seems rather odd for all of these countries that have nuclear weapons to be telling other countries they do not have the right to have them.

My thoughts exactly.

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

So your argument is that the goal of all muslims is to kill all non-muslims? Do you even know any muslims?



Ah, so true.



I ask again, are you assuming there would be no armed resistance to the resulting U.S. occupation?

THERE would be no Iran after we were done. What occupation? For the same reason we don't need to occupy countries in Africa.

Yes, a very friend of mine is a Muslim. He lives in the US and was raised here. I'm speaking of the general population of Iran. The people burning US flags and screaming death to the infidels. You know in government sponsered demonstrations. The same nation that basicly stated they will wipe Israel off the map.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Oh.. don't forget

Iran..

Iran so far away.

But it does border both Iraq and Afghanistan.. so we'd at least be keeping things relatively together. Not that that's a huge plus..

Personally, this whole situation scares the shit out of me. I'm hoping it goes the way of North Korea.. a whole bunch of sabre rattling and nothing really coming of it. But I have a bad feeling that Bush has an itchy trigger finger and actually wants to take on Iran.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

THERE would be no Iran after we were done. What occupation? For the same reason we don't need to occupy countries in Africa.

Oh you mean all those countries in Africa in complete chaos being run by warlords that have countless people dying from famine and disease daily? Which also tend to be fertile ground for terrorists to set up camp since there's no government to prevent them from doing so? This is your idea of a good outcome?

[astrosfan64]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Fuck you, you piece of shit.

My brother is over there, right now, risking his life for principles with which neither he nor I agree but you espouse, while you comfortably sit on your ass and spout off.

I'm married to a Jew, which, as you may or may not remember, is a race that suffered horribly in WWII.

My remaining Polish relatives who lived through that era still deal with the memories of German occupation.

Why don't you just fuck off and die.

Listen, you don't need to goto the whole name calling, fuck off and die shit.

My family is polish and both of my grand parents fought in WW2. My uncle and father both servered in the military and so did my brothers. In fact, I'm the only person in my family who has not served.

My best friend is a captain with military intellegence. He is a marine and is quite familiar with what is going on over there. He has taught classes on Urban combat and is highly qualified to speak on the issue.

Is your brother a reservist? Is he the guy who signed up for free money then got called up to performed his duty?

[astrosfan64]

----- News Flash -----

If we were going to invade Iran, where would we launch from? Umm that would be Afganistan and Iraq.... yeah spread to thin.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

THERE would be no Iran after we were done. What occupation? For the same reason we don't need to occupy countries in Africa.

Yes, a very friend of mine is a Muslim. He lives in the US and was raised here. I'm speaking of the general population of Iran. The people burning US flags and screaming death to the infidels. You know in government sponsered demonstrations. The same nation that basicly stated they will wipe Israel off the map.

Wow, just wow. Not doing much reading about Iran lately? Most Iranians do not have as extreme a view of Islam as most of those in power--much like most Americans consider themselves Christians yet are not as extreme politically as the American Christian fundamentalists who have influence on government policy. In fact, you still see quite a bit of syncretization of a lot of pre-Islamic (Zoroastrian, etc) religious practices on the part of the many of the population.

The majority of Iranians do not particularly like their theocratic government especially because the majority of Iranians are not as religious as you may think. The government has been bending on minor stuff in the past decade like access to luxury goods, satellite TV, etc in their attempt to placate the population. I'm not sure if that will really work, but it is an indication that the government is afraid of popular revolution.

Genocide as a policy sounds a little extreme here, and is likely to be counter-productive...

[Klinglerware]

Dola--

Iran is larger than Alaska, with the population larger than France. Aside from the questionable power-projection capability, if the manpower on the ground in Iraq is barely adequate to occupy that country, how do you think we will muster the manpower to occupy a country 4 times the size of Iraq concurrently?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by astrosfan64

Listen, you don't need to goto the whole name calling, fuck off and die shit.

And you didn't need to suggest I'd be a Nazi sympathizer.

Is your brother a reservist? Is he the guy who signed up for free money then got called up to performed his duty?

My brother is a member of the U.S. Army, stationed in Ar-Ramadi in one of the most violent parts of Iraq. In performing his duty my brother has been blown out of his Humvee, been attacked by a vanload of AK-47-wielding insurgents and watched his good friend and lieutenant get gunned down by a sniper.

What's your contribution to the war effort? Jacking off to Fox News?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by rexallllsc

That makes no sense. Stopping the blind support of a country isn't the same thing as saying they have no right to exist. I don't know why you keep repeating that.

Our support is predicated on the idea that Israel has a right to exist, and really doesn't extend any further than that. We have not supported their settlements, and praised Israel when they announced that they were abandoning them. Our stance has been that Israel has a right to exist, not a right to regional hegemony.

Or, to put it another way, if our support for Israel does not equate with saying they have a right to exist, what do you say it equates to?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

In the broad scheme of things, I fail to see the difference between them having nukes and Pakistan having nukes. How about we develop a consistent foreign policy with regard to non-proliferation first?

I agree. But, didn't we just say that Pakistan can't have nukes? Maybe you meant to say India. Either way, I more or less agree.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I agree. But, didn't we just say that Pakistan can't have nukes? Maybe you meant to say India. Either way, I more or less agree.

With regard to Pakistan, as I said in the other thread, actions speak louder than words and it's only been a year since we sold them those F-16s.

In a way, I think India's a different story. It is, after all, the "world's largest democracy". But basically I think U.S. non-proliferation policy is muddled* and as such arguing that being tough with Iran is part of a consistent approach is a weak argument at best.


*and has been muddled since, oh, 1945.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Our support is predicated on the idea that Israel has a right to exist, and really doesn't extend any further than that. We have not supported their settlements, and praised Israel when they announced that they were abandoning them. Our stance has been that Israel has a right to exist, not a right to regional hegemony.

Or, to put it another way, if our support for Israel does not equate with saying they have a right to exist, what do you say it equates to?

I have a couple issues regarding Israel, first, I don't partake of the whole "right to exist" defense. The nation was created by others, to compensate them for WWII and offer security that such things couldn't happen again. Unfortunately those that did so put them in the worst possible place and said "have fun!" and left them there. I don't belive Israel has any specific "right to exist" so therefore we should not be supporting them based on that.

Secondly, we have supported them for decades, politically, militarily, et al. and what return have we ever gotten from them? They willfully try to expand into territory they were not given, because they somehow feel its their right to do so, they engage in tactics against their nieghbors that at times border on NAZI-ish standards, and they repeatedly have ignored those nations supporting them to stop their militant activities. showing no remorse or contrition for acts they call others out for.

based on the history of their government and their continued lack of respect for their allies, I don't think they should be supported, period. If they want to exist as they are, its their ball. I think we need to cut them loose from the "we've got everyone on our side so we can act like assholes" support lines.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I have a couple issues regarding Israel, first, I don't partake of the whole "right to exist" defense. The nation was created by others, to compensate them for WWII and offer security that such things couldn't happen again. Unfortunately those that did so put them in the worst possible place and said "have fun!" and left them there. I don't belive Israel has any specific "right to exist" so therefore we should not be supporting them based on that.

Secondly, we have supported them for decades, politically, militarily, et al. and what return have we ever gotten from them? They willfully try to expand into territory they were not given, because they somehow feel its their right to do so, they engage in tactics against their nieghbors that at times border on NAZI-ish standards, and they repeatedly have ignored those nations supporting them to stop their militant activities. showing no remorse or contrition for acts they call others out for.

based on the history of their government and their continued lack of respect for their allies, I don't think they should be supported, period. If they want to exist as they are, its their ball. I think we need to cut them loose from the "we've got everyone on our side so we can act like assholes" support lines.

One of the reasons Israel is where it is, is because post WW2 the Arab nations in that region lobbied HARD to have Israel put there. (From what I can tell, this was mostly based on economic motives - that the creation of Israel would create jobs.) If the Arab nations had objected, it's quite possible that Israel would be in Africa or Europe.

As for the right to exist, what right to exist does Iran have that Israel does not? Or the US? Or Italy? Or South Korea? Tell me why the US has a right to exist, but Israel does not.

[biological warrior]

I think we need to re examine how we fight wars. The days of Maneuver warfare (for the forseeable future) is over. We need to focus more on 4th Gen Warfare and, re- structure Basic and NCO (ie more emphasis on urban ops instead of old style of BCT.) training on fighting 4GW and other small intensity conflicts. Also the SF community needs to realize that SF training shouldn't be a fraternity and instead focus on training not weeding out the ''weak'' (you get that far, in theory you should be ''high speed.'' For many failure in SF school begins a downward spiral towards an end to their military career.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

To withdraw all support for Israel is to take Hamas' position that Israel has no right to exist.

if a country doesn't have the means to defend itself and to protect it's sovereignity, what gives it the right to exist? and by exist i mean not in the Hamas sense of "to be eliminated", but exist in the sense of self-government. a country need to be able to show it can stand on its own two feet, and doesn't deserve to be aquired by a larger nation.

i don't think we need to prop up Israel. they've shown the ability to do a good job on their own. in the event they were to lose to Hamas or whomever, i don't see a need to come in and restore Israel to power. might=right. so i don't agree that if we don't support Israel we're actually supoprting Hamas' insane beliefs. rather, i think it's more of a sense of given these crazy times we need to worry about ourselves, and those who are able to exist on their own should take the steps to do so.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

One of the reasons Israel is where it is, is because post WW2 the Arab nations in that region lobbied HARD to have Israel put there. (From what I can tell, this was mostly based on economic motives - that the creation of Israel would create jobs.) If the Arab nations had objected, it's quite possible that Israel would be in Africa or Europe.

As for the right to exist, what right to exist does Iran have that Israel does not? Or the US? Or Italy? Or South Korea? Tell me why the US has a right to exist, but Israel does not.

Self creation, self defense to use two simplistic ideals. They were not self created, they depend heavily on support from many other nations for both logistics and defense. If you think they'd last long without the threat of half a dozen world powers coming to their aide I think you are seriously mistaken. So in those terms, no, I do not believe they have a "right" to exist. If they survive, good for them, if they are threatened with absorption by another state, oh well, sucks for them too.

We as a nation shouldn't be playing the "bodyguard" role that we've had for 50 years. No matter the situation, the US has been in the background looming over any and all attempts to subjugate Israel, and I think we have to stop being that shadow.

Israel has used that position to bully and harrass each of its neighbors at different times over the years. Even when attacked, the threat of US or other nations stepping in kept those attacks to a limited level. And to top things off the US has always been the political cattle prod to keep the peace over there. You think the arab nations listened to the peace talks because they wanted to? It had a lot to do with the US being the center piece and having the threat of losing ties with the US that kept the talks and treaties going.

I just see a repeated attitude from Israel that they feel like a "special" state, that they can do whatever they want whenever they want because we're backing them up.

I really believe we need to cut loose the Israeli state and let them thrive or flounder on their own. They haven't given enough back in this relationship to warrent our continued support.