and for todays installment of coaches that should be bannished... - Page 2

saldana · 08-09-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Again, that wasn't the sole goal of any league I ever played in or coached in.

I don't see anything that suggested they pitched around the best hitter for the entire game, it was situational. And based on the known facts the situation absolutely positively calls for the guy to be walked, anybody who knows the slightest thing at all about baseball knows that.

they didnt pitch around him...the DP show said he had already homered and i think doubled earlier in the game.

that doesnt change anything for me though...i am just trying to be fair with information.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-09-2006, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saldana

they didnt pitch around him...the DP show said he had already homered and i think doubled earlier in the game.

Thanks for the info.

I'm now 110% certain that I would have walked him.

heybrad · 08-09-2006, 11:39 PM

I'm sorry dude, I really don't mean to sound like a dick,but I have this picture in my head of Jon, 15-20 years in the future, looking at his Rec League Championship Trophy - 9 Year Old Division, smoking a cigar and telling the story... "I knew the gimp was coming up next, so I had to put the big kid on."

TroyF · 08-09-2006, 11:40 PM

The coach did the 100% correct thing. It's a CHAMPIONSHIP game. If it's non competitive, then you don't have a championship game.

If the goal is to have fun and not worry about the score, I'm good with that. Then you don't have playoffs, championships. . . you hand out trophies to every kid who played and you don't even bother keeping score. What's the point in scores afterall, it's all for fun anyway?

I don't believe the coach yelled across the field. (this would be an add on that I haven't seen in any published reports about the story)

Would the intentional walk have been brought up if the kid had slammed a double down the line? Would the kid who nailed all those threes in the basketball game have been such a special story if the opposing team had simply let him fire up shots without playing any defense?

Or how about this question:

If it was just your average uncoordinated, pathetic baseball player standing in the on deck circle, are we having this discussion? Or if it was an "average" kid standing in the on deck circle? Is it any less humiliating for you to strike out to end the championship game if you are just a pathetic athlete vs. you having a condition that prevents you from being good?

And are the parents teaching the kid that he's different and should be treated as such? Or was he on the field because he loved the game and they were trying to give the kid as normal of an existence as possible?

I find it sad that the kid struck out. I find it even sadder that he's probably went through more in his 9 years than most of us will ever have to endure in our lives. I'm completely 100% awed by the fact this kid even set foot on the field.

But I'm not saddened that in a competitive, championship game, a coach made a decision to try to win the baseball game.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-09-2006, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

And are the parents teaching the kid that he's different and should be treated as such?

In the bit of the interview with Dan Patrick I caught today, I think that's far from the case.

The dad even made a couple of comments to the effect that this has been a bigger deal to other people than it was to their son or to them. He said they talked about the situation, how minor it was compared to what he had already faced, and about how (with the kid being a big NBA fan) stars like Kobe & Jordan had missed shots at the end of games and lost. While the strikeout still hurt, the dad indicated that, with some perspective added, he understood it was part of the game. Best of all, the kid's comment that was quoted in the SI article, the part about working to get better so that next time it would be him they were walking to pitch to somebody else.

With that attitude, I'd say this kid is going to be just fine.

TroyF · 08-09-2006, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

In the bit of the interview with Dan Patrick I caught today, I think that's far from the case.

The dad even made a couple of comments to the effect that this has been a bigger deal to other people than it was to their son or to them. He said they talked about the situation, how minor it was compared to what he had already faced, and about how (with the kid being a big NBA fan) stars like Kobe & Jordan had missed shots at the end of games and lost. While the strikeout still hurt, the dad indicated that, with some perspective added, he understood it was part of the game. Best of all, the kid's comment that was quoted in the SI article, the part about working to get better so that next time it would be him they were walking to pitch to somebody else.

With that attitude, I'd say this kid is going to be just fine.

So in other words the media and a bunch of people are screaming bloody murder about something the actual people involved with don't really care that much about?

What a shock.

SuperGrover · 08-10-2006, 01:44 AM

Wow. This thread is sad in so many ways.

Let me say that I played competitive baseball from the time I was 7 (I always played up). My father coached me for about 50% of that time. Never, ever would he have done something like that at that age. He would've told the team point blank: "Guys, this is their best hitter. If we can't get him out in this situation we don't deserve to be champions." That's how you teach the game at that age.

SuperGrover · 08-10-2006, 01:47 AM

One more thing-THEY WERE 9 FUCKING YEARS OLD! When I played, intentional walks were forbidden at 9. I guess they could've done went the "unintentional-intentional" route, but that's pretty shitty if you ask me.

Baseball at 9 isn't baseball. It's an entirely different game. Hell, why don't we start retaliating for hit-batsmen in little league while were at it. I mean, it IS part of the game and all.

SuperGrover · 08-10-2006, 01:50 AM

The only "non-competitive" (i.e. not keeping score) league I've ever run across was one that the YMCA director proposed in the league where I coached a couple of summers ago ... and it was ultimately a scored league because they couldn't even come up with enough players interested to field two teams otherwise.

Dude, there are many, many different levels of competition for youngsters. "Rec" is anything that a) doesn't involve try outs and b) have teams assigned-not selected. This accounts for 90% of the leagues in America. Rec leagues are suppossed to be fun and a great learning experience. Yes, some kids will be better, but the goal of those leagues is not to dominate but to foster team spirit and teach the kids how to play the game.

They have competitive leagues at 9-I played on one. Those involved try outs and traveling and were an entirely different atmosphere. Even in those leagues, an intentional walk is kinda bush, but I could see it there. Not in a rec league.

illinifan999 · 08-10-2006, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperGrover

T Rec leagues are suppossed to be fun

Winning is fun.
Losing isn't.

caspanky · 08-10-2006, 02:10 AM

Having been the kid that the opposing team walked a batter to get to, I wish I would have reacted the way this kid did when he got out. I always felt horrible, like I let the team down, and just really down about the whole thing, even though my teammates never blamed me. This kids reply to the situation was great. He's going to work on his hitting so he's better next time.

I think that's the key point here. It's not the family making a big deal about it, it's not the kid either. It's other people who feel that because he's "different" he should be treated differently. Where as his family just wants him to be treated the same as everone else.

Ben E Lou · 08-10-2006, 04:36 AM

I'm assuming that y'all are getting this "non-competitive" thing from somewhere besides the article that is posted. Correct? I don't see that anywhere. I see "Little League" a couple of times. Last I checked, "Little League" teams are the ones that play post-season tournaments that end in Williamsburg, PA. Has that changed?

WVUFAN · 08-10-2006, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

It's fun to be competitive. That's what sissy leagues don't understand anymore. No matter how young you are, part of the fun of playing little league is that you're playing the same game as your heroes, using the same skills and strategies.

Tell that the cancer survivor, who's just trying to play with other kids, and gets LITERALLY picked on to be the one who loses the game because the other coach wants to win more than anything else.

The coach in question should not be coaching children. Bottom line.

Quote:

Trying to avoid hurt feelings at all costs is an awful child development strategy. We all have to deal with setbacks in our lives - in a small way, youth sports helps kids prepare for that in a relatively consequence-free environment.

Age 9 and a cancer survivor with an obvious handicap isn't the one you use as the guinea pig to teach that lesson.

Subby · 08-10-2006, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by illinifan999

Winning is fun.
Losing isn't.

I actually tend to agree with Jon and SkyDog on most of this, but your comments are kind of ridiculous. The point of youth sports is for the kids to have fun playing. You learn how to play hard, play right, and be good sports. Sure, you play to win - but the results aren't nearly as important as the learning and the experience.

We get so results-oriented with youth sports that it drives huge numbers of kids out prematurely.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-10-2006, 07:52 AM

[quote=Subby]I actually tend to agree with Jon and SkyDog on most of this, but your comments are kind of ridiculous. The point of youth sports is for the kids to have fun playing. [quote]

But I think what he was saying was that the fun is largely encompassed in the winning, a statement I'd pretty strongly agree with. There are occasional exceptions, such as those super close games where the intensity of the moment provides some enjoyment but on the whole, I can't say I ever "had fun" while losing.

Quote:

We get so results-oriented with youth sports that it drives huge numbers of kids out prematurely.

And this I really have to disagree with, having seen just the opposite happen a couple of years ago. Remember, I watched as a "non-competitive" league that couldn't draw enough kids to form teams but more than doubled their registrants once a switch to more standard competition was made.

Toddzilla · 08-10-2006, 07:52 AM

Rec league or not, why do you play?

You play to win the game.

That being said, the opposing coach who set the lineup so that his strongest hitter immediately preceded his weakest hitter was just BEGGING for this situation to arise. I mean seriously - what kind of idiot thinks his best player isn't going to get walked in these situations and his worst hitter isn't going to be victimized? That coach is the real villain here, not the other team's coach who is playing the game correctly.

TroyF · 08-10-2006, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caspanky

I think that's the key point here. It's not the family making a big deal about it, it's not the kid either. It's other people who feel that because he's "different" he should be treated differently. Where as his family just wants him to be treated the same as everone else.

I wish all the people who are so pissed of about this and think the end of western civilization is near would read this last line.

1) Nine year olds care about winning (as my hapless video game controllers found out when I was that age)
2) Nine year olds are a crapload stronger mentally than what we give them credit for. (and this kid is probably stronger than 98% of the adult population in how he deals with things)
3) This kid has went through so much in his life, he's not and doesn't want to be the helpless victim everyone here is making him out to be. He wants to be a normal kid, treated like all the other kids.

To do that HE and I stress HE realizes that the good comes with the bad. Being treated like everyone else isn't going to be great in some instances. He understands it and his reaction is that he wants to work harder so they walk him next time.

Good for him. Good for the nine year old who has it figured out when many adults can't.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-10-2006, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

Good for him. Good for the nine year old who has it figured out when many adults can't.

That was pretty much what I took away from the interview, a positive feeling about the kid's reaction. Well, that and a reminder of why I'm not real gung-ho about my own son playing what is passed off for organized sports these days.
Bottom line, I'd be happy to have him play for the eventual winning coach, not because he won but because he teaches it as it was meant to be played. On the other hand, I wouldn't want him within a hundred yards of the whining coach for any purpose other than providing an example of what a real loser looks like.

cthomer5000 · 08-10-2006, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Rec league or not, why do you play?

You play to win the game.

That being said, the opposing coach who set the lineup so that his strongest hitter immediately preceded his weakest hitter was just BEGGING for this situation to arise. I mean seriously - what kind of idiot thinks his best player isn't going to get walked in these situations and his worst hitter isn't going to be victimized? That coach is the real villain here, not the other team's coach who is playing the game correctly.

I wouldn't be surprised if he actually set the lineup that way figuring "no way the other team would have the balls to pitch around him and pitch to the kid recovering from cancer." It's a championship game, you play to win it. If this were truly a non-competitive league there would be no sort of playoff system.

TroyF · 08-10-2006, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Rec league or not, why do you play?

You play to win the game.

That being said, the opposing coach who set the lineup so that his strongest hitter immediately preceded his weakest hitter was just BEGGING for this situation to arise. I mean seriously - what kind of idiot thinks his best player isn't going to get walked in these situations and his worst hitter isn't going to be victimized? That coach is the real villain here, not the other team's coach who is playing the game correctly.

I'd be interested to see if the whining coach had intentionally walked any other kid that year. Also how many times the big hitter had been walked during the season and if this was a typical batting order or if this were different because the whining coach was doing this as a setup. (ie: the team in question had walked the best hitter earlier in the season and he thought putting the kid with cancer behind him in the order would prevent it)

There is so much more information that is needed about this story for it to have any legs to stand on. One of those things would be a statement from the kid in question talking about how humilitated he was instead of a bunch of 30+ year olds telling him he should have been.

Buccaneer · 08-10-2006, 08:50 AM

So sports competition is the only/best way to develop character in kids?

Subby · 08-10-2006, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And this I really have to disagree with, having seen just the opposite happen a couple of years ago. Remember, I watched as a "non-competitive" league that couldn't draw enough kids to form teams but more than doubled their registrants once a switch to more standard competition was made.

I am not arguing against competition. I am not arguing against playing to win. I am just saying that as a coach at this level (in my experience) it is more helpful to the development of these kids to stress the fun of competition rather than being overly results-oriented.

BrianD · 08-10-2006, 09:16 AM

I want to disagree with everything JimG is saying, but I'm not sure I can. One of the problems I have with the way things work in this country is the belief that everyone should be exactly equal. Job requirements are relaxed for some jobs to allow more women in, and classrooms are made mediocre so that no kid falls behind. By making sure nobody fails or gets their feelings hurt, we are also preventing people from really succeeding. In trying to make everyone special, we end up with nobody being special.

This kid's story is sad, but if he can't play ball, he is going to end up in this situation eventually. Not everybody is meant to be a good baseball player. Maybe the parents should have found an activity for him that he was better at. Maybe they should have had him take the year off to better recover and become stronger. These people need to find out where his strengths are and encourage him to succeed in those areas.

Warhammer · 08-10-2006, 09:52 AM

First, let me ask this question:

If this kid was not a cancer survivor, is this even an issue?

At 9 years old, given that the star hitter hit a triple and a HR in the game, the pitcher on my Little League team would have walked the guy himself.

Second, if the kid gets a hit, is this an issue?

Third, if this was a non-competitive league, why have playoffs or a championship?

Fourth, how is this any different from a child that is small for his age, or just a bad athelete?

I don't worry about the kid that was a cancer survivor. He's been through more than this, and he has already shown his willingness to overcome obstacles. He wants to lead a normal life. That means having the chance to hit the home run, or strike out.

There are people that are wagging their tongues that this kid had tears in his eyes after the second strike, that he was feeling pressure. Oh that poor child that overcame cancer, how dare the big, bad, mean other team make him feel that. Where's the pub about how this kid overcame the odds to even be in that position. Most kids that suffered through his ordeal never get to be in the batter's box and experience that.

If the child wants to be normal, he needs to be willing to suffer through what the other kids do in the same situation. Just because he is a cancer survivor is not reason to take it easy on him.

I have watched kids at 5 years old in leagues where scores were not being kept, keep score and let their parents know who was winning.

The kids I worry about are the ones on the winning team.

Suburban Rhythm · 08-10-2006, 09:54 AM

I can't help but wonder, what if the kid gets a hit there? Reilly, Patrick, etc might still be talking about the story, but in terms of how wonderful, heartfelt, tear-jerking it was. Nobody would have cared that the intentional walk was issued then, but it wouldn't have changed the fact the coach bypassed a stronger hitter for a weaker hitter.

rowech · 08-10-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer

There are people that are wagging their tongues that this kid had tears in his eyes after the second strike, that he was feeling pressure. Oh that poor child that overcame cancer, how dare the big, bad, mean other team make him feel that. Where's the pub about how this kid overcame the odds to even be in that position. Most kids that suffered through his ordeal never get to be in the batter's box and experience that.

If I'm not mistaken, the kid that was crying was the pitcher...not the hitter. He's the one that's taking the brunt of everything. He's the one that is messed up. The batter will be cool about it because as people have said, he has developed that attitude through treatment. His parents seem to be alright with it as well. The pitcher is the one I feel bad for. Guess he couldn't play for Guillen.

Warhammer · 08-10-2006, 10:26 AM

On the DP show yesterday they said the hitter had tears in his eyes, and that was what all the national news was talking about. The kid's father mentioned that the hitter did cry after he struck out. That was when the father talked to his son about the situation, he was still upset later that night, but in the morning showed his new resolve.

Tigercat · 08-10-2006, 10:46 AM

Doing the right coaching move means nothing for kids in a developmental league. A kid can learn the right strategy anytime, including watching baseball on TV.

The best move in the spirit of the game was to pitch to the tougher hitter. Not to mention it would have been more beneficial baseball-experience wise to all kids involved.

Oilers9911 · 08-10-2006, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I caught the very tail end of this segment on Patrick's show today, had no idea what they were talking about.

The screaming across the diamond part? That's sound pretty damned crass.

But the tactical decision? You absolutely positively 100% walk the guy. The thing that takes this from high 90% to 100% is the phrase the other team’s best hitter at the plate. (I'm assuming that's an accurate description of the situation).

With the facts available that's the obvious move in any other game all season, with any other significantly weaker hitter up next. That's baseball, whether you're 5, 15, 25, or 75 in a beer & Geritol league.

Jesus, talk about a black and white reponse. Tactically, yes you walk the good hitter but this isn't a black and white issue. These kids are playing for fun, not in the major leagues, or college or even high school. So great, you have your little trophy and you can brag about it until the following year but there is no dignity in this kind of victory, making a very sick little boy cry himself to sleep? Congratulations on that victory.

TroyF · 08-10-2006, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oilers9911

Jesus, talk about a black and white reponse. Tactically, yes you walk the good hitter but this isn't a black and white issue. These kids are playing for fun, not in the major leagues, or college or even high school. So great, you have your little trophy and you can brag about it until the following year but there is no dignity in this kind of victory, making a very sick little boy cry himself to sleep? Congratulations on that victory.

I want to make sure I have this straight. . .

It's OK for the pitcher who gives up the HR to the great hitter to lose the game to cry himself to sleep? Or maybe for the second baseman who makes a throwing error to lose a game? It's ok for him right, because he didn't have cancer?

Kids cry themselves to sleep over losing no matter how talented or awkward they are. The league has a setup. There is a championship game. There is 2 outs in the bottom of the last inning. With that setup, there will be heros and there will be losers. And the losers aren't going to be happy. Whoever the key "loser" is, he's going to take it hard. It could be ANY of those kids and the reaction is the same.

It still amazes me that the little boy who cried himself to sleep is handling this and has a better understanding of what happened than people who are trying to "protect" him. I'll just move on now and let the people who think me, jon, sky and others are just mean spirited people have their say.

BrianD · 08-10-2006, 11:26 AM

It is easy to take outrage in a situation like this which is so extreme, but it is much harder to draw the line on what is and isn't appropriate.

illinifan999 · 08-10-2006, 12:37 PM

What about the catchers with weak arms who has to watch kids steal on him everytime they get on base? Where's the story on those horrible coaches with the audacity to give steal signs on that poor catcher with the weak arm?

Gary Gorski · 08-10-2006, 12:57 PM

As someone who is involved in coaching youth sports I have to say I find the coach's actions to be appaling. First off, if he yelled that across the field he should have no business coaching kids. Period. Second, these kids are 9 freakin years old. I don't care if the "right" move according to baseball strategy is to intentionally walk the kid - wasn't that the right move the time the kid was up and belted his HR and double or triple or whatever it was or was it only the right move when they had the possibility of losing their undefeated championship season? This was a bush league move by the coach with 9 year olds playing. He basically told his pitcher you can't get their good kid out but I think you can strike out a disabled kid who has cancer and we'll win the championship.

Aside from the move of going for the championship by facing a disabled kid that was a sweet piece of coaching for his own player. Nothing like telling a 9 year old that you're pretty sure that if he pitches to their best player that he'll blow the game for you so how about you just pitch to a kid who is a disabled cancer survivor instead. Gee coach, thanks for the encouragement and the vote of confidence. So what if you pitch to the kid and he smacks another homer - at least you can talk to your pitcher and tell him that he did his best and that's all you can ask of him. I'm not saying to tell the kid to just lay a fat one in there to get belted - he can try to make him swing at bad pitches - but to tell him to not even try to pitch because there is a handicapped kid up next REGARDLESS if it is the proper baseball strategy or not is just poor sportsmanship and a poor way of coaching his own pitcher. Look at the reaction of the kid doing the pitching - do you think he wanted to strike out the cancer kid to win the game knowing that he was told to avoid their best player in order to do it?

If you're playing high school sports or above then fine - I think once kids get to that level there should be an emphasis on winning and doing what it takes while playing fairly to win. I'm also 100% against the sissification of sports where nobody makes an out and nobody wins or loses. Kids need to be taught that they don't always win but you can teach those lessons and still be a good sport. The problem is coaches who think they're Joe Torre and sit in the dugout thinking "wow, everyone will say what a brilliant coaching move walking that kid was to ensure we win the championship" when the batter and his own pitcher end up crying about being put in that situation, half the kids out there are wondering what they're going to order from McDonalds after the game and most of the rest of the people are going to look at him as a jackass for doing it. For the ones supporting this coach, if you have a nine year old son do you want a coach telling him he shouldn't pitch to a good hitter but instead to a disabled kid? Wouldn't it mean more to your son to know he got their best hitter out to win the championship rather than he didn't even make an attempt to get him out (not by his own choice of course) and struck out a kid who is surviving cancer to win the championship?

JonInMiddleGA · 08-10-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

It's OK for the pitcher who gives up the HR to the great hitter to lose the game to cry himself to sleep? Or maybe for the second baseman who makes a throwing error to lose a game? It's ok for him right, because he didn't have cancer?

Actually, I think the evil must be inherent to the competition, that's what's really to blame here. No sense in kids finding out how the world actually works or anything.

Quote:

Kids cry themselves to sleep over losing no matter how talented or awkward they are.

While I'm pretty much disgusted enough with the handwringing crowd to just drop the conversation at this point (and thank God that none of them are anywhere near my kid), you hit on one thing that I can't believe so many people have apparently overlooked -- kids crying after losses is about as common as kids picking their noses while playing in the field. I can't recall a loss that I didn't cry after to be honest, and when you're on .500'ish teams that's quite a bit of crying. I've cried after going 0-for-4 and cried after going 6-for-6, a loss was a loss to me. But it was because I cared about what I was doing, because that was the whole point of the exercise. I didn't sweat through practices because I enjoyed the fresh air or some other non-competitive bullshit, I sweated through them because I wanted to be good enough to beat whoever was in the other dugout. Minus that, you might as well be running around in circles or something, and damned if I was gonna be outside in 90+ degrees for no good reason. I had better sense than that when I was like five.

But somewhere along the way, we seem to have become terrified of having our kids find out that there are winners & losers in life, and we're apparently so societally afraid of them being on the losing end that we'd rather try to deny it even exists.

Tell you what folks, as long as you don't infect mine with that Pollyanna bullshit approach, you do what you want with yours. It'll make his path to the top a whole lot easier, and I'll do my best to make him a good boss for your non-acheivers.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-10-2006, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

if you have a nine year old son do you want a coach telling him he shouldn't pitch to a good hitter but instead to THE NEXT BATTER?

Fixed that for you. And with the correction, you're damned straight that's the coach I want.

My God, this kid had the balls to beat cancer, had the balls to put on the uniform & try just like everybody else ... and yet you think he should be subjected to some sort of pity trip?

Crapshoot · 08-10-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Fixed that for you. And with the correction, you're damned straight that's the coach I want.

My God, this kid had the balls to beat cancer, had the balls to put on the uniform & try just like everybody else ... and yet you think he should be subjected to some sort of pity trip?

I've thought about it a lot, and I think this last line really makes Jon's point. I don't want to be condescended to - and that was especially true as a kid. He's shown the guts to get up there and play despite everything - respect him enough to treat him as a ballplayer there.

TroyF · 08-10-2006, 01:27 PM

For the ones supporting this coach, if you have a nine year old son do you want a coach telling him he shouldn't pitch to a good hitter but instead to a disabled kid? Wouldn't it mean more to your son to know he got their best hitter out to win the championship rather than he didn't even make an attempt to get him out (not by his own choice of course) and struck out a kid who is surviving cancer to win the championship?

I would want the coach to do, within the confines of the rules, to make the decisions he felt would win the game. If I chose to have my chile in a non competitive enviornment, I'd put him there. If he's in the middle of a championship game, I want the coach to make sound baseball decisions to win the game.

Were I the parent of the cancer surviver, I'd want my child to be treated like everyone else. I wouldn't want a coach telling me he had to play RF, had to hit off a tee or wasn't allowed to play more than 2 innings at a time because he was disabled. Nor would I want it to flip the other way to where he got special treatment because of his situation.

And that's where the more information part of the story comes in. How predominant is intentionally walking hitters in this league? Is it a common strategy or was this the only situation all year it happened? Did the coach whining ever IW an opposing batter? Did he put this kid in the lineup and put him in the spot he did because this hitter was walked a lot during the season and he wanted to find a way to prevent it? Was this a typical batting lineup?

Everyone here keeps making ridiculous assumptions about the league when none of us know what standards the league played under all year.

And again, I don't ever remember seeing a single story about the incident where the coach hollered across the field. If he did, he should be gone. Period. But that has nothing to do with the cancer victim either. Were he to have yelled across the field that the little awkward kid coming up to the plate, it's every bit as bad as screaming about the cancer victim who can't hit.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-10-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyF

Were he to have yelled across the field that the little awkward kid coming up to the plate, it's every bit as bad as screaming about the cancer victim who can't hit.

Hmm , I'm not sure I totally agree with you on that point, mostly because "just throw strikes, he can't hit you, you da man" stuff seems like a pretty common encouragement from the dugout to the mound.

And, depending upon the specific rules of the league (again, one of the many parts of the story that are missing), the coach may not have been allowed to visit the mound to have the conversation more discreetly. I know that's the case in some leagues I've seen over the years, although darned if I ever understood exactly the purpose of it.

Subby · 08-10-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Tell you what folks, as long as you don't infect mine with that Pollyanna bullshit approach, you do what you want with yours. It'll make his path to the top a whole lot easier, and I'll do my best to make him a good boss for your non-acheivers.

Did you steal this line from Marv Marinovich?

JonInMiddleGA · 08-10-2006, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subby

Did you steal this line from Marv Marinovich?

Interesting sidebar about him. I mentioned that whole situation to a guy in his early 20's the other day, big football fan, wants to be a coach and/or trainer someday ... had no idea who or what I was talking about.

Not really all that surprising considering how fast time flies, but it really made me feel even older.

Gary Gorski · 08-10-2006, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Fixed that for you. And with the correction, you're damned straight that's the coach I want.

My God, this kid had the balls to beat cancer, had the balls to put on the uniform & try just like everybody else ... and yet you think he should be subjected to some sort of pity trip?

No, I never said that the pitcher should lob one in for the cancer kid to hit or walk him as well so that he didn't have to make the last out. I'm glad the kid pitched to him and that the other coach didn't stoop to the level of telling the kid to just try to get a walk or lean into a pitch or attempt to pinch hit for him. I said the coach is an ass for setting up that situation in a game with kids who are NINE.

You really want a coach to tell your son that he has no faith in his ability to get a good player out so lets just skip him and try to get a lesser player out? Cancer kid or not I'm not intentionally walking ANYONE in a game of nine year olds. Would you be encouraging your nine year old to play hack-a-shaq with some kid who has trouble getting the ball up to the rim? Within the rules? Sure. Is it a strategy the pros use? Yup. Does it make it right for a sporting contest with kids who are nine? Not in my book. It's not about pitying the kid who has cancer - its about saying I want to win the championship of the nine year olds so badly that I'm willing to do whatever it takes when the kids themselves don't want to win it that way.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-10-2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

You really want a coach to tell your son that he has no faith in his ability to get a good player out so lets just skip him and try to get a lesser player out?

When the guy is already 2-for-2 against him, both for extra bases? And with THE game of the season on the line, and a double at least ties the game? You're damned skippy I do.

Quote:

Would you be encouraging your nine year old to play hack-a-shaq with some kid who has trouble getting the ball up to the rim?

If the kid is killing you from the inside the lane but can't shoot FT's? Damned straight. And they better foul his ass to the floor too, no excuse for allowing an old-fashioned three point play.

And if they've got a gimpy QB who is killing me throwing the ball but can't escape the rush, I'm going to come after him with every rusher the rules allow for.

There is nothing unsporting about being smart enough to know how to win. It's why I've worked to teach kids who couldn't hit a beachball with a tennis racket how to bunt (in a league where bunting was legal). That worked out well enough to make a mini-hero of the smallest kid on our 8-9 y/o team that year, hitting under .200 for the season with ... but with two strikes & the infield playing back stupidly, he got it down against the best pitcher in the league and kept a rally going when otherwise there was little chance of him doing anything other than striking out.

It's why a chubby kid who wasn't very coordinated and was quite slow to boot had the highest BA & OBP on his team, and led the league in steals for three straight seasons at age 7, 8, and 9... he knew how to bunt, he got hit by more than a few pitches & he knew which catchers could throw & which ones couldn't. By playing within the rules, being situationally smart, that kid contributed beyond what his natural talent would have dictated. Yeah, I didn't hit for power but by God I could get on base and score some runs.

heybrad · 08-10-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

It's why a chubby kid who wasn't very coordinated and was quite slow to boot had the highest BA & OBP on his team, and led the league in steals for three straight seasons at age 7, 8, and 9... he knew how to bunt, he got hit by more than a few pitches & he knew which catchers could throw & which ones couldn't. By playing within the rules, being situationally smart, that kid contributed beyond what his natural talent would have dictated. Yeah, I didn't hit for power but by God I could get on base and score some runs.

I think you've pretty well nailed why I'd never want you to coach my kid (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). By 9 years old, you've evaluated and set in stone what some kids talent level is. That's a joke. If you have a kid who can't hit, work with him as long as it takes until he can hit. You would seriously tell a kid, "Don't even bother swinging since you can't hit it anyways. Just bunt."

Gary Gorski · 08-10-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

If the kid is killing you from the inside the lane but can't shoot FT's? Damned straight. And they better foul his ass to the floor too, no excuse for allowing an old-fashioned three point play.

You sir are what is wrong with youth sports today. You would tell a nine year old to "foul his ass to the floor"? That's just sick and pathetic. Let me guess, you would have never let that kid hit the second extra base hit off your pitcher in the game because you would have told your pitcher to throw at his head for hitting a home run, right? How can you sit there and say that you're going to tell nine year olds they should be intentionally trying to take down players? And you have children? So if one of your children turns out to be a good basketball player you will understand if the other team decides to just start knocking him down and possibly injure him since they can't defend him any other way? I just hope you never have to face situation that to see how messed up that is.

Warhammer · 08-10-2006, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heybrad

I think you've pretty well nailed why I'd never want you to coach my kid (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). By 9 years old, you've evaluated and set in stone what some kids talent level is. That's a joke. If you have a kid who can't hit, work with him as long as it takes until he can hit. You would seriously tell a kid, "Don't even bother swinging since you can't hit it anyways. Just bunt."

I don't think you read his entire post. He specifically mentioned that he had the kid that had two strikes bunt instead of swing. I agree with his premise. In situations you do what you are good at. You practice what you are weak at doing, but in the big game you stick to your strengths.

When I played basketball, I was a deadly three point shooter. I couldn't count on that all the time as the defense would come out on me. So I practiced faking the three point shot and driving. That was enough to keep the defense honest, but I was not as effective finishing that way. When the game was on the line, I would stick to my strength as the defense would have to play honest because they knew I could drive.

What JiMG described is the risky play. The defense was playing honest, and the kid stuck to his strength and got the desired result. Who else bunts with two strikes, you're out if you put the ball on the wrong side of the line! What the heck is wrong with that?

Warhammer · 08-10-2006, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

You sir are what is wrong with youth sports today. You would tell a nine year old to "foul his ass to the floor"? That's just sick and pathetic. Let me guess, you would have never let that kid hit the second extra base hit off your pitcher in the game because you would have told your pitcher to throw at his head for hitting a home run, right? How can you sit there and say that you're going to tell nine year olds they should be intentionally trying to take down players? And you have children? So if one of your children turns out to be a good basketball player you will understand if the other team decides to just start knocking him down and possibly injure him since they can't defend him any other way? I just hope you never have to face situation that to see how messed up that is.

There are ways to foul to ensure that the shot is not going in that can be done without injuring the kid. I've seen it done as early as 10, ok that's not 9, but that was when I started playing.

What JiMG is saying is that you do everything allowed within the rules short of injuring players to get the win.

I'm beginning to think the only way to win this argument is to say that the cancer survivor should not have been allowed to play because of the ramifications of his playing would have on the normal kids. Imagine the ridicule this poor pitcher would have suffered had the kid gotten a base hit!

Ridiculous statement? Based upon the line of reasoning some are taking here its not.

heybrad · 08-10-2006, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warhammer

I don't think you read his entire post.

It's a flaw of mine. I get going a little too fast.

I think the point I'm making is that at the age of 9, maybe the point of the season is try and make your kids better players/people. Correct me if I'm wrong Jon, but what I'm getting out of your posts, is even at 9, win at all costs.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-10-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heybrad

I think you've pretty well nailed why I'd never want you to coach my kid (assuming I'm understanding you correctly). By 9 years old, you've evaluated and set in stone what some kids talent level is. That's a joke. If you have a kid who can't hit, work with him as long as it takes until he can hit. You would seriously tell a kid, "Don't even bother swinging since you can't hit it anyways. Just bunt."

Uh, uh. That wasn't my kid, that was ME, a very long time ago. And if the infield did manage to remember to play in, then I'd swing away and get the occasional bloop double right over 'em (because the OF's were never smart enough to play shallow no matter what the infield did).

Having played since I was 4, by 9 years old I didn't need anybody to tell me what I could/couldn't do. Not everybody can hit .400 swinging away, I didn't really even had gap power, but I knew I could contribute by being a high OBP guy. I think in some degree that's something that has changed the nature of at least youth baseball today versus when I was playing, more kids had a better understanding of the game then than I see now. As SD (or somebody) mentioned up the thread, we wouldn't have needed anyone to tell us to pitch around or even IBB the guy in this situation, most of us would have known to do it anyway.

Meanwhile, the kid I later taught to bunt was a tough case. He was a rookie in a league where every other kid had been playing for several years. He was significantly undersized having been born prematurely & had several health issues along the way that basically stunted his growth. He also had about the worst eyesight imaginable, well beyond "coke bottle" glasses, and you can't hit what you can't see. But I had known his family pretty much my whole life, remembered when the kid was born, all the crap he had been through, etc.

We had three coaches & we pretty much devoted at least one to working with him for at least half a practice every day through the year but there just wasn't a lot of ability there. Not his fault, it happens. He was frustrated to tears more than once, he wasn't not hitting for lack of trying nor for lack of coaching (one of the other coaches was actually quite good at instruction), he was just so far behind that catching up with the league was pretty well impossible over just one summer. His mother let me know that he was talking about just quitting altogether, but she really hoped he wouldn't because it was the first time he had ever tried any group sport, she felt like it was important that he at least see it through to the end of the season.

Remembering what I had done way back when, I figured it was worth a try.

Over a couple of weeks, I worked on bunting with him in addition to his normal BP. Lo & behold, he kind of got it. He was at least making contact. So, up against the team we were battling for first place (killer pitching is hard to beat at that age & they had more of it than we did), down by a run late & him due up again on a O-fer day with nothing but strikeouts so far, we decided to give him the best chance to succeed available -- and he dropped it down the 3B line, caught the defense completely off-guard, no chance to throw him out. If you had seen the smile on his face standing down at first, littlest guy on the field feeling like he had just outsmarted the bullies of the league, seen his mother absolutely losing her mind with delight, I think you would understand why I've never regretted that move for a second. It was one of two bunt hits he got that season, afterwards most of the teams played in for it so we couldn't use it effectively but I think he even got a kick out of making them pay extra attention to him at the plate. Infinitely better than having infielders sit/squat/relax when you come up.

We ended up losing that game in extra innings, ended up finishing second in the league to that same team when the season was over, but it wasn't for lack of effort by players or coaches. We got the most out of those kids they had to offer, and we gave them everything we knew how to give them, including a chance to win.

That kid played one more season after that, his mother telling me later that he said it just wasn't as much fun without the same coaches he had the first year.

BrianD · 08-10-2006, 02:52 PM

If the coach hadn't instructed the pitcher to walk the kid, many pitchers at that age would have known to pitch very carefully to the big hitter and probably would have walked him. You may want to yell at the coach for teaching questionable sportsmanship, but most kids would know it without being taught.

I remember playing on the championship t-ball team at the age of 6 (random draw team that ended up being completely stacked). I played the pitcher spot and could tell where a batter would hit based on the way they lined up. I would set myself up at the same distance as the pitcher's mound, but right were the batter was going to hit. It really wasn't in the spirit of the game, but it was damn effective. The league even had to initiate a rule to make the pitcher stay on the mound until the ball was hit. The bottom line is that kids are very competitive even before the age of 9, and pitching around a big kid is not a difficult strategy to come up with.

Karlifornia · 08-10-2006, 02:55 PM

What kind of crap is that? Pitching around a 9 year old? What kind of grown man ever looks at a 9 year old and says, "I think we better not mess with this kid."?

It's not like this is the MLB. The 9 year old kid that doesn't get to hit loses 50% of the reason that they're there. Getting to hit is the ultimate part of playing baseball when you're in 4th grade. All eyes are on you, and you want knock em dead. No 9 year old gets excited about walking. Not to mention that this was the last time the kid would even get a chance to swing the bat all season and you rob him of that chance because you're afraid of him? STOP BEING AFRAID OF NINE YEAR OLDS, JACKASS.

Adam Morrison would have pitched to him.

08-10-2006, 04:36 AM	#62
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	I'm assuming that y'all are getting this "non-competitive" thing from somewhere besides the article that is posted. Correct? I don't see that anywhere. I see "Little League" a couple of times. Last I checked, "Little League" teams are the ones that play post-season tournaments that end in Williamsburg, PA. Has that changed? __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

08-10-2006, 09:54 AM	#75
Suburban Rhythm Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pittsburgh	I can't help but wonder, what if the kid gets a hit there? Reilly, Patrick, etc might still be talking about the story, but in terms of how wonderful, heartfelt, tear-jerking it was. Nobody would have cared that the intentional walk was issued then, but it wouldn't have changed the fact the coach bypassed a stronger hitter for a weaker hitter. __________________ "Do you guys play fast tempos with odd time signatures?" "Yeah" "Cool!!"

08-10-2006, 12:37 PM	#82
illinifan999 Pro Rookie Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: VA	What about the catchers with weak arms who has to watch kids steal on him everytime they get on base? Where's the story on those horrible coaches with the audacity to give steal signs on that poor catcher with the weak arm? __________________ Chicago Eagles 2 time ZFL champions We're "rebuilding"

08-10-2006, 12:57 PM	#83
Gary Gorski Wolverine Studios Join Date: Oct 2003	As someone who is involved in coaching youth sports I have to say I find the coach's actions to be appaling. First off, if he yelled that across the field he should have no business coaching kids. Period. Second, these kids are 9 freakin years old. I don't care if the "right" move according to baseball strategy is to intentionally walk the kid - wasn't that the right move the time the kid was up and belted his HR and double or triple or whatever it was or was it only the right move when they had the possibility of losing their undefeated championship season? This was a bush league move by the coach with 9 year olds playing. He basically told his pitcher you can't get their good kid out but I think you can strike out a disabled kid who has cancer and we'll win the championship. Aside from the move of going for the championship by facing a disabled kid that was a sweet piece of coaching for his own player. Nothing like telling a 9 year old that you're pretty sure that if he pitches to their best player that he'll blow the game for you so how about you just pitch to a kid who is a disabled cancer survivor instead. Gee coach, thanks for the encouragement and the vote of confidence. So what if you pitch to the kid and he smacks another homer - at least you can talk to your pitcher and tell him that he did his best and that's all you can ask of him. I'm not saying to tell the kid to just lay a fat one in there to get belted - he can try to make him swing at bad pitches - but to tell him to not even try to pitch because there is a handicapped kid up next REGARDLESS if it is the proper baseball strategy or not is just poor sportsmanship and a poor way of coaching his own pitcher. Look at the reaction of the kid doing the pitching - do you think he wanted to strike out the cancer kid to win the game knowing that he was told to avoid their best player in order to do it? If you're playing high school sports or above then fine - I think once kids get to that level there should be an emphasis on winning and doing what it takes while playing fairly to win. I'm also 100% against the sissification of sports where nobody makes an out and nobody wins or loses. Kids need to be taught that they don't always win but you can teach those lessons and still be a good sport. The problem is coaches who think they're Joe Torre and sit in the dugout thinking "wow, everyone will say what a brilliant coaching move walking that kid was to ensure we win the championship" when the batter and his own pitcher end up crying about being put in that situation, half the kids out there are wondering what they're going to order from McDonalds after the game and most of the rest of the people are going to look at him as a jackass for doing it. For the ones supporting this coach, if you have a nine year old son do you want a coach telling him he shouldn't pitch to a good hitter but instead to a disabled kid? Wouldn't it mean more to your son to know he got their best hitter out to win the championship rather than he didn't even make an attempt to get him out (not by his own choice of course) and struck out a kid who is surviving cancer to win the championship? __________________ Wolverine Studios http://www.wolverinestudios.com

08-10-2006, 02:55 PM	#100
Karlifornia Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: San Jose, CA	What kind of crap is that? Pitching around a 9 year old? What kind of grown man ever looks at a 9 year old and says, "I think we better not mess with this kid."? It's not like this is the MLB. The 9 year old kid that doesn't get to hit loses 50% of the reason that they're there. Getting to hit is the ultimate part of playing baseball when you're in 4th grade. All eyes are on you, and you want knock em dead. No 9 year old gets excited about walking. Not to mention that this was the last time the kid would even get a chance to swing the bat all season and you rob him of that chance because you're afraid of him? STOP BEING AFRAID OF NINE YEAR OLDS, JACKASS. Adam Morrison would have pitched to him. __________________ Look into the mind of a crazy man (NSFW) http://www.whitepowerupdate.wordpress.com

08-09-2006, 11:39 PM	#53
heybrad Norm!!! Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Manassas, VA	I'm sorry dude, I really don't mean to sound like a dick,but I have this picture in my head of Jon, 15-20 years in the future, looking at his Rec League Championship Trophy - 9 Year Old Division, smoking a cigar and telling the story... "I knew the gimp was coming up next, so I had to put the big kid on."

08-09-2006, 11:40 PM	#54
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	The coach did the 100% correct thing. It's a CHAMPIONSHIP game. If it's non competitive, then you don't have a championship game. If the goal is to have fun and not worry about the score, I'm good with that. Then you don't have playoffs, championships. . . you hand out trophies to every kid who played and you don't even bother keeping score. What's the point in scores afterall, it's all for fun anyway? I don't believe the coach yelled across the field. (this would be an add on that I haven't seen in any published reports about the story) Would the intentional walk have been brought up if the kid had slammed a double down the line? Would the kid who nailed all those threes in the basketball game have been such a special story if the opposing team had simply let him fire up shots without playing any defense? Or how about this question: If it was just your average uncoordinated, pathetic baseball player standing in the on deck circle, are we having this discussion? Or if it was an "average" kid standing in the on deck circle? Is it any less humiliating for you to strike out to end the championship game if you are just a pathetic athlete vs. you having a condition that prevents you from being good? And are the parents teaching the kid that he's different and should be treated as such? Or was he on the field because he loved the game and they were trying to give the kid as normal of an existence as possible? I find it sad that the kid struck out. I find it even sadder that he's probably went through more in his 9 years than most of us will ever have to endure in our lives. I'm completely 100% awed by the fact this kid even set foot on the field. But I'm not saddened that in a competitive, championship game, a coach made a decision to try to win the baseball game.

08-10-2006, 01:44 AM	#57
SuperGrover Mascot Join Date: Jan 2004	Wow. This thread is sad in so many ways. Let me say that I played competitive baseball from the time I was 7 (I always played up). My father coached me for about 50% of that time. Never, ever would he have done something like that at that age. He would've told the team point blank: "Guys, this is their best hitter. If we can't get him out in this situation we don't deserve to be champions." That's how you teach the game at that age.

08-10-2006, 01:47 AM	#58
SuperGrover Mascot Join Date: Jan 2004	One more thing-THEY WERE 9 FUCKING YEARS OLD! When I played, intentional walks were forbidden at 9. I guess they could've done went the "unintentional-intentional" route, but that's pretty shitty if you ask me. Baseball at 9 isn't baseball. It's an entirely different game. Hell, why don't we start retaliating for hit-batsmen in little league while were at it. I mean, it IS part of the game and all.

08-10-2006, 01:50 AM	#59
SuperGrover Mascot Join Date: Jan 2004	The only "non-competitive" (i.e. not keeping score) league I've ever run across was one that the YMCA director proposed in the league where I coached a couple of summers ago ... and it was ultimately a scored league because they couldn't even come up with enough players interested to field two teams otherwise. Dude, there are many, many different levels of competition for youngsters. "Rec" is anything that a) doesn't involve try outs and b) have teams assigned-not selected. This accounts for 90% of the leagues in America. Rec leagues are suppossed to be fun and a great learning experience. Yes, some kids will be better, but the goal of those leagues is not to dominate but to foster team spirit and teach the kids how to play the game. They have competitive leagues at 9-I played on one. Those involved try outs and traveling and were an entirely different atmosphere. Even in those leagues, an intentional walk is kinda bush, but I could see it there. Not in a rec league.

08-10-2006, 02:10 AM	#61
caspanky Mascot Join Date: Aug 2004	Having been the kid that the opposing team walked a batter to get to, I wish I would have reacted the way this kid did when he got out. I always felt horrible, like I let the team down, and just really down about the whole thing, even though my teammates never blamed me. This kids reply to the situation was great. He's going to work on his hitting so he's better next time. I think that's the key point here. It's not the family making a big deal about it, it's not the kid either. It's other people who feel that because he's "different" he should be treated differently. Where as his family just wants him to be treated the same as everone else.

08-10-2006, 07:52 AM	#66
Toddzilla Pro Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burke, VA	Rec league or not, why do you play? You play to win the game. That being said, the opposing coach who set the lineup so that his strongest hitter immediately preceded his weakest hitter was just BEGGING for this situation to arise. I mean seriously - what kind of idiot thinks his best player isn't going to get walked in these situations and his worst hitter isn't going to be victimized? That coach is the real villain here, not the other team's coach who is playing the game correctly.

08-10-2006, 08:50 AM	#71
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	So sports competition is the only/best way to develop character in kids?

08-10-2006, 09:16 AM	#73
BrianD Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	I want to disagree with everything JimG is saying, but I'm not sure I can. One of the problems I have with the way things work in this country is the belief that everyone should be exactly equal. Job requirements are relaxed for some jobs to allow more women in, and classrooms are made mediocre so that no kid falls behind. By making sure nobody fails or gets their feelings hurt, we are also preventing people from really succeeding. In trying to make everyone special, we end up with nobody being special. This kid's story is sad, but if he can't play ball, he is going to end up in this situation eventually. Not everybody is meant to be a good baseball player. Maybe the parents should have found an activity for him that he was better at. Maybe they should have had him take the year off to better recover and become stronger. These people need to find out where his strengths are and encourage him to succeed in those areas.

08-10-2006, 09:52 AM	#74
Warhammer Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dayton, OH	First, let me ask this question: If this kid was not a cancer survivor, is this even an issue? At 9 years old, given that the star hitter hit a triple and a HR in the game, the pitcher on my Little League team would have walked the guy himself. Second, if the kid gets a hit, is this an issue? Third, if this was a non-competitive league, why have playoffs or a championship? Fourth, how is this any different from a child that is small for his age, or just a bad athelete? I don't worry about the kid that was a cancer survivor. He's been through more than this, and he has already shown his willingness to overcome obstacles. He wants to lead a normal life. That means having the chance to hit the home run, or strike out. There are people that are wagging their tongues that this kid had tears in his eyes after the second strike, that he was feeling pressure. Oh that poor child that overcame cancer, how dare the big, bad, mean other team make him feel that. Where's the pub about how this kid overcame the odds to even be in that position. Most kids that suffered through his ordeal never get to be in the batter's box and experience that. If the child wants to be normal, he needs to be willing to suffer through what the other kids do in the same situation. Just because he is a cancer survivor is not reason to take it easy on him. I have watched kids at 5 years old in leagues where scores were not being kept, keep score and let their parents know who was winning. The kids I worry about are the ones on the winning team.

08-10-2006, 10:26 AM	#77
Warhammer Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dayton, OH	On the DP show yesterday they said the hitter had tears in his eyes, and that was what all the national news was talking about. The kid's father mentioned that the hitter did cry after he struck out. That was when the father talked to his son about the situation, he was still upset later that night, but in the morning showed his new resolve.

08-10-2006, 10:46 AM	#78
Tigercat College Starter Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Federal Way, WA	Doing the right coaching move means nothing for kids in a developmental league. A kid can learn the right strategy anytime, including watching baseball on TV. The best move in the spirit of the game was to pitch to the tougher hitter. Not to mention it would have been more beneficial baseball-experience wise to all kids involved.

08-10-2006, 11:26 AM	#81
BrianD Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	It is easy to take outrage in a situation like this which is so extreme, but it is much harder to draw the line on what is and isn't appropriate.

08-10-2006, 01:27 PM	#87
TroyF Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	For the ones supporting this coach, if you have a nine year old son do you want a coach telling him he shouldn't pitch to a good hitter but instead to a disabled kid? Wouldn't it mean more to your son to know he got their best hitter out to win the championship rather than he didn't even make an attempt to get him out (not by his own choice of course) and struck out a kid who is surviving cancer to win the championship? I would want the coach to do, within the confines of the rules, to make the decisions he felt would win the game. If I chose to have my chile in a non competitive enviornment, I'd put him there. If he's in the middle of a championship game, I want the coach to make sound baseball decisions to win the game. Were I the parent of the cancer surviver, I'd want my child to be treated like everyone else. I wouldn't want a coach telling me he had to play RF, had to hit off a tee or wasn't allowed to play more than 2 innings at a time because he was disabled. Nor would I want it to flip the other way to where he got special treatment because of his situation. And that's where the more information part of the story comes in. How predominant is intentionally walking hitters in this league? Is it a common strategy or was this the only situation all year it happened? Did the coach whining ever IW an opposing batter? Did he put this kid in the lineup and put him in the spot he did because this hitter was walked a lot during the season and he wanted to find a way to prevent it? Was this a typical batting lineup? Everyone here keeps making ridiculous assumptions about the league when none of us know what standards the league played under all year. And again, I don't ever remember seeing a single story about the incident where the coach hollered across the field. If he did, he should be gone. Period. But that has nothing to do with the cancer victim either. Were he to have yelled across the field that the little awkward kid coming up to the plate, it's every bit as bad as screaming about the cancer victim who can't hit.

08-10-2006, 02:52 PM	#99
BrianD Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	If the coach hadn't instructed the pitcher to walk the kid, many pitchers at that age would have known to pitch very carefully to the big hitter and probably would have walked him. You may want to yell at the coach for teaching questionable sportsmanship, but most kids would know it without being taught. I remember playing on the championship t-ball team at the age of 6 (random draw team that ended up being completely stacked). I played the pitcher spot and could tell where a batter would hit based on the way they lined up. I would set myself up at the same distance as the pitcher's mound, but right were the batter was going to hit. It really wasn't in the spirit of the game, but it was damn effective. The league even had to initiate a rule to make the pitcher stay on the mound until the ball was hit. The bottom line is that kids are very competitive even before the age of 9, and pitching around a big kid is not a difficult strategy to come up with.

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