RPG fans: WoTC officially announces D&D 4th Edition

[JediKooter]

I guess we will see a jump in Jolt and pizza sales here in the near future.

[SirFozzie]

Yup. If people here do D&D Insider, I'll look into running a game for you

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Yup. If people here do D&D Insider, I'll look into running a game for you

Man, I'm all over that like Buc at a "Murder She Wrote" convention.

[thesloppy]

I'll be damned if those froots at WotC think I'm going to switch over! I still play every GOTdamn week, and I'm just NOW beginning to figure out how to ready a dispell and/or grapple 'properly', like ten years after I first bought the books. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me 3.5, shame on me.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Yup. If people here do D&D Insider, I'll look into running a game for you

I'm in, depending on how it works.

[RendeR]

Nothing is better than the old 2nd edition AD&D rules, it took care of the important shit and left the rest to what was REALLY important, the IMAGINATION of the players and the GM.

Too much BS to slog through now.

[Fidatelo]

Ya, I mean how could you ever top THAC0?

[Zelig]

Nice one, Fidatelo!

Giving 4 a shot. Why? I haven't played since 1st edition, but now getting together is much harder than logging on at the same time from our house and playing.

[Izulde]

I miss tabletop D&D. 2nd ed ruled, 3rd ed blew. Not sure how I feel about 4th.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Ya, I mean how could you ever top THAC0?

C'mon now, let's be honest. thac0 and d20's combat system are the same bloody thing, just the other way around.

(and I do really like the d20 system. But the thac0 joke is heavily overused and really silly when you actually look an realize it's the same damn thing still, just described differently)

[Zelig]

still funny, though.

[damnMikeBrown]

I can count the number of times I played on one hand...but my childhood was replete with D&D. I bought the books, some modules, then designed campaigns & worlds for myself. A sort of creative writing/novel that I created and was able to move through in my imagination.

GDW...Twilight 2000..now that is a rule set that was horrible but I -loved- their literature/campaigns/writing.

[Coder]

Call of Cthulhu have THE best campaign modules ever written, story wise. The immersion of those sessions simply cannot be topped. Masks of Nyharlahotep is amazing, and I'm not even a horror-fan. Never been into D&D, though I have to admit that the Birthright-setting was really cool.

[Apathetic Lurker]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Me too dude. I wish we had enough people around Buffalo to get a good game going but it so damn time intensive.

Well, you could have put your pointy wizards hat on and gone to the UBcon a few weeks ago. I brought my wife who never was into that and actually never even talked to to a dork/geek/nerd(not including me). Hilarity ensued!

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

C'mon now, let's be honest. thac0 and d20's combat system are the same bloody thing, just the other way around.

(and I do really like the d20 system. But the thac0 joke is heavily overused and really silly when you actually look an realize it's the same damn thing still, just described differently)

I can't remember the specifics of THAC0, but I do know that every single time I played AD&D someone needed to explain it again to someone else at the table. It was confusing.

Of course, 3E has it's own confusing stuff (and more of it), but for the most part those hard-to-grasp rules aren't really necessary unless you are a hardcore rules-lawyer gaming group. I prefer to basically toss anything that gets in the way, which means I use about 1/10th of the 3E rules

To be honest I've never felt D&D was a great RPG. I was weened on the Palladium Heroes Unlimited/TMNT rules and found those to be a lot more fun. There are a lot of other RPG's that I've read but never played (like John Wick's L5R or Big Eyes, Small Mouth) that seem like they would be a lot of fun too. Unfortunately my friends are pretty much of the mindset that D&D is the only game out there, so that's what I play.

[sachmo71]

I preordered my 4th Edition books yesterday!

[Honolulu_Blue]

The 3E D&D rules and the D20 system, in general, is simple enough. I know a lot of people hate it and piss and moan about it, but I think it works. For each roll you have a relevant ability + a skill that modifies your die roll. That's really all it boils down to.

There's really a good 50-60% (if not more) of the rules that aren't really necessary. A good GM should be able to figure stuff out on the fly and not have to go into the minutiae of everything.

I've played a ton of different RPGs over the 28 years or so I've been doing this. For the most part, in my mind, systems are systems. So long as the system isn't broken, overly complicated ("Twilight 2000"), or just kind of silly ("Vampire"), I don't mind it. A great RPG campaign, or one shot, comes from the GM and players. If you've got a cool idea, an interesting setting, a great GM, and players who are all into it, the die rolling totally becomes secondary.

One of the best campaigns I was ever in, I believe was a "Kult" game. I think it was "Kult" we were using, but I could be confusing it with another campaign. The thing is, I can't really remember what game system or rules we were using at all, but it was still one of the best campaigns I've ever played.

That said, I've never been a fan of diceless systems. There is just an element of chance to things like combat or what not that I think dice work very well for.

I do love "Call of Cthulhu". The Chaosium system isn't great, but it isn't horrible either. The campaigns are fantastic. It's such a great setting and so many cool things.

I know I've mentioned this multiple times on this board, but any fans of the "Call of Cthulhu" RPG, who are also fans of boardgames, must IMMEDIATELY go buy "Arkham Horror" (and all of the various expansions). It's probably the best boardgame I've ever played and just nails the whole CofC feel. Great art, fun rules, and an amazing amount of re-playability.

[Mustang]

Agree on Arkham Horror. There are also rules for solitaire play.

But, Twilight 2000... complex? Hmm... I played the crap out of Twilight 2000 in the 80s, but never really thought it was complex. Now, Space Opera... oy..

I'd put Rolemaster in the complex category too, but for some reason I really love Rolemaster and the combat system. (I don't know, I love charts I guess)

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Agree on Arkham Horror. There are also rules for solitaire play.

But, Twilight 2000... complex? Hmm... I played the crap out of Twilight 2000 in the 80s, but never really thought it was complex. Now, Space Opera... oy..

I'd put Rolemaster in the complex category too, but for some reason I really love Rolemaster and the combat system. (I don't know, I love charts I guess)

I always found the character generation for "Twilight 2000" to be overly complex. It took hours. In fact, we usually spent so much time making up those characters that we never really ended up playing the game for all that long.

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I always found the character generation for "Twilight 2000" to be overly complex. It took hours. In fact, we usually spent so much time making up those characters that we never really ended up playing the game for all that long.

everyone spoke multiple languages...it was funny

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Mustang

Agree on Arkham Horror. There are also rules for solitaire play.

But, Twilight 2000... complex? Hmm... I played the crap out of Twilight 2000 in the 80s, but never really thought it was complex. Now, Space Opera... oy..

I'd put Rolemaster in the complex category too, but for some reason I really love Rolemaster and the combat system. (I don't know, I love charts I guess)

Rolemaster combat took too long, but it was quite realistic.

[Tim Tellean]

Castles and Crusades uses a hybrid AD&D, 3rd ed. for combat as well as adding some other twists to the game system. Its the system that Gary Gygax used for his creations in later years.
Or buy my companies 3.5 compatible adventures. www.ptgamesinc.com
We're actually meeting this weekend to test drive Keep on the Shadowfell and see how the 4th ed. rules play out in a game session.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I always found the character generation for "Twilight 2000" to be overly complex. It took hours. In fact, we usually spent so much time making up those characters that we never really ended up playing the game for all that long.

Oh, we played the heck out of it. I loved that, TMNT and Paranoia. Oh, and whoever said Space Opera was complicated was right on. That game was insane.

The most fun game to make characters for and never play is Traveller. I always loved making characters forthat game, and we barely ever actually ran the game.

[Fidatelo]

I have to admit that making characters is often actually more fun than using them for me. As such, my characters tend to die a lot.

[WVUFAN]

A few things I've noticed about the module and the new quickstart 4e rules -- be prepared, geek speak coming up:

• I'm not sure I'm keen on the new "Healing Surge" rules; the idea that all classes can heal themselves a certain amount once per encounter, and a certain amount of times before an "extended" (read: camp) rest. Clerics now allow people to use more than one Healing Surge in an encounter. I know they're trying to make a cleric more than just a healer, but it takes away from the importance of having one in a party
• I like the differing "At Will" "Per Encounter" and "Daily Powers" each class has, especially the slide rules the fighting classes has. Makes combat much more tactical.
• Hit Points are much, MUCH higher. There's a kobald in the module that isn't the "big boss" at the end of the adventure, just a mini-boss, that had 136 hit points. A KOBALD with 136 hitpoints, and they have him classified as 4th level.

[Dutch]

Funny thing happened when I quit playing D&D. I didn't get any cooler.

Seriously though, I couldn't give a shit about what version is out there since I don't buy this stuff anymore (like MV, I bought a TON of books and modules...in the 80's for me). The only thing I could possibly and realistically do anymore is a single-player CRPG gaming experience. If somebody is going to create one of those based on the rule sets, I'm down with it.

I am quite amazed that WoTC haven't build there own CRPG D&D universe game system and just pump out "modules' for that. That seems to be worth something.

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

There's really a good 50-60% (if not more) of the rules that aren't really necessary. A good GM should be able to figure stuff out on the fly and not have to go into the minutiae of everything.

I have to disagree with this statement. Granted, you could use circular reasoning to say that alls well that ends well, and a good game means the DM/GM was good and his "on the fly" decisions were justified, but I've been growing increasingly frustrated with my current DM's complete dismissal of rules in an effort to frustrate out party. To wit:
- our characters needed 2 rounds to close the distance between us and gnolls with longbows 60 feet away. When I pointed out that a normal person can cover 20 yards in a matter of seconds he went on a rant about how the 1e system was broken (i guess he's used to 2e, but I couldn't tell you what that implies). Whatever. I wanted to hand him a longbow and see how many times he could shoot me while I run 60 feet.
- At the end of this same battle, the lead gnoll made a run for it after I'd hacked away most of his hit points. We had to finish off a few more guys so a few rounds passed. I then wanted to track him with my ranger. "All right, he said, let's say you have a 50% chance." No, I said, let's look at the rules, because I'm sure it's closer to 120% sure that a ranger can track a gnoll who's bleeding to death after a matter of minutes.
- A bit earlier we had encountered some spotted lions. I called out a speak with animals spell, which at the very least makes an animal refrain from attacking the party. No, he said, it's already attacking you so you can't really talk to it. And it's really hungry.

As a DM myself, i sympathize with someone trying to keep the game moving and having tough calls to make. But the rules are there so that the players can use their abilities with confidence. It becomes frustrating when arbitrary decisions always seem to work against the party. Again, you can say a good DM throws out rules correctly, but I would rather just play by the rules and look things up when necessary. Could you imagine an NFL ref making up rulings on the fly?

[Edward64]

I did play D&D but my crowd played TFT (The Fantasy Trip) by Steve Jackson more. TFT is really the precursor to the GURPS system and I liked it better because:

• It allowed you to allocated your points between ST, DX and IQ (I think?) vs random die rolls.
  
• As you rose through the ranks, your hit points did not increase by 1d4 or 1d6, it increased by +1 so even if you were fairly experienced in levels, you still had to watch out for regular low level monsters.
  
• The Fantasy portion was not overly done (sound strange to say) vs what was in D&D.
  
• The rule books were fairly thin, lots more roleplaying vs checking against the rules.

Those were the fun days including the early computer games of MULE, Seven Cities of Gold, Pirates on the good old C64.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Sgran

I have to disagree with this statement. Granted, you could use circular reasoning to say that alls well that ends well, and a good game means the DM/GM was good and his "on the fly" decisions were justified, but I've been growing increasingly frustrated with my current DM's complete dismissal of rules in an effort to frustrate out party. To wit:
- our characters needed 2 rounds to close the distance between us and gnolls with longbows 60 feet away. When I pointed out that a normal person can cover 20 yards in a matter of seconds he went on a rant about how the 1e system was broken (i guess he's used to 2e, but I couldn't tell you what that implies). Whatever. I wanted to hand him a longbow and see how many times he could shoot me while I run 60 feet.
- At the end of this same battle, the lead gnoll made a run for it after I'd hacked away most of his hit points. We had to finish off a few more guys so a few rounds passed. I then wanted to track him with my ranger. "All right, he said, let's say you have a 50% chance." No, I said, let's look at the rules, because I'm sure it's closer to 120% sure that a ranger can track a gnoll who's bleeding to death after a matter of minutes.
- A bit earlier we had encountered some spotted lions. I called out a speak with animals spell, which at the very least makes an animal refrain from attacking the party. No, he said, it's already attacking you so you can't really talk to it. And it's really hungry.

As a DM myself, i sympathize with someone trying to keep the game moving and having tough calls to make. But the rules are there so that the players can use their abilities with confidence. It becomes frustrating when arbitrary decisions always seem to work against the party. Again, you can say a good DM throws out rules correctly, but I would rather just play by the rules and look things up when necessary. Could you imagine an NFL ref making up rulings on the fly?

There is a fairly big gray area between story telling and being overly technical with regard to playing a game that mostly takes place in your imagination.

As long as you're having fun, how many arrows a gnoll can shoot at you in 64.321 feet shouldn't matter.

If you don't like him, grab him by his wizard robe, throw a couple of tennis balls at him and charge his ass out the back door, then elect a new DM.

[Schmidty]

You know, sometimes it frustrates me that I know all of these cool people at FOFC that I have things in common with, but can't actually hang out with. Not to be touchy feely, but it'd be awesome to live near some of you guys.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Sgran

I have to disagree with this statement. Granted, you could use circular reasoning to say that alls well that ends well, and a good game means the DM/GM was good and his "on the fly" decisions were justified, but I've been growing increasingly frustrated with my current DM's complete dismissal of rules in an effort to frustrate out party. To wit:
- our characters needed 2 rounds to close the distance between us and gnolls with longbows 60 feet away. When I pointed out that a normal person can cover 20 yards in a matter of seconds he went on a rant about how the 1e system was broken (i guess he's used to 2e, but I couldn't tell you what that implies). Whatever. I wanted to hand him a longbow and see how many times he could shoot me while I run 60 feet.
- At the end of this same battle, the lead gnoll made a run for it after I'd hacked away most of his hit points. We had to finish off a few more guys so a few rounds passed. I then wanted to track him with my ranger. "All right, he said, let's say you have a 50% chance." No, I said, let's look at the rules, because I'm sure it's closer to 120% sure that a ranger can track a gnoll who's bleeding to death after a matter of minutes.
- A bit earlier we had encountered some spotted lions. I called out a speak with animals spell, which at the very least makes an animal refrain from attacking the party. No, he said, it's already attacking you so you can't really talk to it. And it's really hungry.

As a DM myself, i sympathize with someone trying to keep the game moving and having tough calls to make. But the rules are there so that the players can use their abilities with confidence. It becomes frustrating when arbitrary decisions always seem to work against the party. Again, you can say a good DM throws out rules correctly, but I would rather just play by the rules and look things up when necessary. Could you imagine an NFL ref making up rulings on the fly?

If anything, I think the above demonstrates excellently why so many of the rules are pretty useless. They are game mechanics that try to simulate "real life", but they just never will. You have to be able to use common sense.

The rules are useful as a guide whenever there is a disagreement, but I can't recall the last time I really had a disagreement of that kind.

For example, the whole tracking a bleeding gnoll, as a GM I would have let the ranger track it automatically. I mean, he's a ranger, the gnoll is bleeding, the trail is fresh. It's pretty much a no brainer. If anything, I'd say make a roll and anything other than "1" means you succeed.

Then again, I only RP with a pretty small group of guys and we've been RPing together for 15+ years or so. We have it down pretty well.

Originally Posted by Dutch

There is a fairly big gray area between story telling and being overly technical with regard to playing a game that mostly takes place in your imagination.

As long as you're having fun, how many arrows a gnoll can shoot at you in 64.321 feet shouldn't matter.

If you don't like him, grab him by his wizard robe, throw a couple of tennis balls at him and charge his ass out the back door, then elect a new DM.

I totally agree with Dutch.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

For example, the whole tracking a bleeding gnoll, as a GM I would have let the ranger track it automatically. I mean, he's a ranger, the gnoll is bleeding, the trail is fresh. It's pretty much a no brainer. If anything, I'd say make a roll and anything other than "1" means you succeed.

Yeah, that's what the "make s#$t up screen" is for. Have him make a roll, you roll behind that as the GM, and as long as he doesn't go 1 or you don't go 20, it's all good...

SI

[Grammaticus]

I've played two encounters with the quick start rules and the module, Keep on the Shadowlands.

I think they made a lot of changes for the sake of changing and not value add. Why chang "attack of opportunity" to "opportunity attack"?

On the healing surge, we found the characters had a hard time using the surge in combat because you have to burn an action point. The Cleric basically ended up doing as much healing as a 3.5E Cleric would do.

I like some of the things they did with spells, daily powers and encounter powers. I don't like the classes and races they put in the "core" release. I don't like the obvious way they are trying to dumb down the game and line it up with the MMORPGs.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

On the healing surge, we found the characters had a hard time using the surge in combat because you have to burn an action point. The Cleric basically ended up doing as much healing as a 3.5E Cleric would do.

You don't have to spend an action point to use a Healing Surge. It's just a standard action (and if you have a dwarf, it's just a minor action).

[SirFozzie]

Well, one major retailer (Buy.com) broke street date on this, and sent out a ton of copies, so it's out... and thus it's already on the file sharing networks.

But the folks who legitimitely bought it have been talking about it on RPG.NET, and it seems all positive so far.

[Sgran]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

I don't like the obvious way they are trying to dumb down the game and line it up with the MMORPGs.

I've heard this from other people, but noone has been able to explain what this means to me, maybe because I don't play mmorpgs. As a 1e player I have no idea what action points and opportunities are, so it's all Greek to me, but can you tell me in layman's terms how it's dumbed down.

[WVUFAN]

Originally Posted by Sgran

I've heard this from other people, but noone has been able to explain what this means to me, maybe because I don't play mmorpgs. As a 1e player I have no idea what action points and opportunities are, so it's all Greek to me, but can you tell me in layman's terms how it's dumbed down.

What some are saying is that in the new D&D, each class has "Powers", abilities can be triggered either each round, each fight (called "encounters") or per day. This is similar to the abilitiy bars of most MMORPG's, like WOW. So, instead of saying "I attack the kobald" like in the first three editions, you have abilities you use, such as a fighter's Cleave ability (damage, plus 3 damage to adjacent enemy).

Action points are points built up during the course of a day, which can be used to re-roll attacks, as well as other things.

Attacks of Opportunity (or Opportunity Attacks in 4e, like it needed to have a name change) are extra attacks you or creatures get when you move next to a square occupied by an enemy as a normal movement.

[Fidatelo]

So, now that 4e is out on the shelves, any thoughts?

My copies just came in the mail yesterday, so I've only read the first 2 chapters of the PHB, but here are my initial impressions:

• I'm not sold on the art/colour schemes, but I do really like the layout and typography of the books. Much easier to read than 3e.
• The book reads well (at least early on) and I like that they seem to have stream-lined some things. Can't comment too much on anything yet as I'm obviously only just past the fluff.
• D&D Insider is delayed BIG TIME, but of course they didn't announce it until after release (and even then there is still nothing on the main site, you have to dig through the forums to know). I wasn't sure if I was interested in this service anyways, but pretty poor form to hide the delay like they have (the delay is so large they have to have known for at least the last 3-4 months).

I'll post more thoughts once I've read more, but I'm intrigued to hear what others on here have to say.

[Fidatelo]

Did no one else buy the books?

[sachmo71]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Did no one else buy the books?

I preordered them, but amazon told me that they won't ship until 7/16.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by sachmo71

I preordered them, but amazon told me that they won't ship until 7/16.

That sucks! When did you pre-order? Mine shipped out from Amazon on the 5th and arrived (arrove?) on the 9th.

[sachmo71]

Well, to be fair, I pre-ordered the "gift set". Maybe they are behind on production of that product.

[SirFozzie]

I have the three books (got em from Amazon for $57!!!) and I'm really liking what I'm reading...

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I have the three books (got em from Amazon for $57!!!) and I'm really liking what I'm reading...

High Five!

[DanGarion]

I will probably get them to read them, but my group got tired of playing D&D so I'll probably never get to play it.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by dangarion

I will probably get them to read them, but my group got tired of playing D&D so I'll probably never get to play it.

Theoretically the online stuff would make it possible for you to play with other people, but since it is MIA at this point there are no guarantees.

[PurdueBrad]

Hey guys,

Looking for some quick game advice. It's been a long time since I've played any kind of RPG but I am looking for a decent PC solo-game to play. I'm interested in character creation and development over most things. While I do enjoy a somewhat open world, I've enjoyed the dungeon games where simply you progress deeper and deeper. Any recommendations are welcome!

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Hey guys,

Looking for some quick game advice. It's been a long time since I've played any kind of RPG but I am looking for a decent PC solo-game to play. I'm interested in character creation and development over most things. While I do enjoy a somewhat open world, I've enjoyed the dungeon games where simply you progress deeper and deeper. Any recommendations are welcome!

http://t-o-m-e.net/

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

http://t-o-m-e.net/

TY, checking it out tonight.

[Celeval]

+1 for TOME, but get the most recent 2.x version, not the v3 alphas. It's based on angband, so if you almost like it but it's not quite your cup of tea, check out the other angband variants (and the original).