Play along with war games in Iraq - Page 2

CamEdwards · 03-18-2003, 05:39 PM

Oh, so you're someone worthy of being "outed"??? Hell, why hide behind a name? I don't.

(then again, I'm probably not worthy of being outed. THAT'S a depressing thought.

)

As far as China goes... golly it's great that the people of China have embraced capitalism. If only we could get those stodgy technocrats (I still call them communists, btw) out of the way, then we might have gotten somewhere. You failed to refute my point that you have several billion people who are anti-american and pro-big mac. They haven't embraced capitalism, they've embraced the fruits of capitalism.

And if I'm so wrong about how Falun Gong is treated in noble and advanced China... enlighten me. Send me a private message if you're worried about outing yourself.

You can trust me... I'm a reporter.

John Galt · 03-18-2003, 05:49 PM

Quote:

We didn't invade Iraq. They invaded Kuwait and we liberated Kuwait. If we had invaded Iraq, we wouldn't be having these discussions today.

I'm not trying to quibble, but we did invade Iraq. You may think it was justified by their invastion of Kuwait, but we did cross the border and go into Iraq. That is still an invasion.

Quote:

In fact, if there's no way to deter someone, then this entire discussion is kind of pointless.

Why would that end the discussion? And I'm not saying deterrence never works, just that it is a very poor method in many instances.

Quote:

Oh, so you're someone worthy of being "outed"??? Hell, why hide behind a name? I don't.

No, nothing that exciting. Just as a lawyer, I can't afford to say certain things publicly because of clients. The internet allows me to be a little freer. I just don't want to offer exact details of who I am, because it could allow someone to figure out where I work and such.

Quote:

You failed to refute my point that you have several billion people who are anti-american and pro-big mac. They haven't embraced capitalism, they've embraced the fruits of capitalism.

And a lot of American culture too. Give it time. That is how "soft power" works. And whether or not China has embraced capitialism isn't really the issue - the fact is that citizens their are MUCH more receptive to the West and don't view us enemies that should be attacked (as they did 20 or 30 years ago).

Quote:

And if I'm so wrong about how Falun Gong is treated in noble and advanced China... enlighten me.

I totally misunderstood you before - if you look at your original post, it could be read to say Falun Gong was full of anti-American communists. Now I realize that you were right in what you were saying.

Still, we don't invade China, Burma, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. Iraq has gotten special treatment without great reason. Free trade and engagement should be tried before we resort to violence.

CamEdwards · 03-18-2003, 08:02 PM

The problem with "soft power" is that it doesn't actually effect change. You can talk about soft power all you want, but last time I checked there was still a great deal of anti-american sentiment among those in charge in China.

You could claim that soft power is what led to the anti-American sentiment espoused by Osama bin Laden and his ilk. After all, we did nothing to bin Laden, he's just against the spread of western influence in the Muslim world.

I'm sorry your job doesn't allow you to freely express your personal beliefs. What made you decide your paycheck is more important than your values?

John Galt · 03-18-2003, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
The problem with "soft power" is that it doesn't actually effect change. You can talk about soft power all you want, but last time I checked there was still a great deal of anti-american sentiment among those in charge in China.

You could claim that soft power is what led to the anti-American sentiment espoused by Osama bin Laden and his ilk. After all, we did nothing to bin Laden, he's just against the spread of western influence in the Muslim world.

I'm sorry your job doesn't allow you to freely express your personal beliefs. What made you decide your paycheck is more important than your values?

While bin Laden and his followers give a lot of lip service to attacking Western culture, I think the criticism is more focused on the way the U.S. expands its cultural reach. For example, the U.S. arming and nuclearizing of Israel is a particular point of contention.

As for my beliefs and paychecks, I don't sacrifice my values at all. I have my beliefs and among those is the sacred nature of attorney/client relationships. 99.9% of what I may say has nothing do with my clients, but as long as I represent them, I guard against the possibility of a public conflict with what I argue in a legal setting. Being an attorney wouldn't be possible any other way.

Craptacular · 03-18-2003, 09:57 PM

Cam, I respect most of what you're saying, but not all Chinese people are anti-American.

CamEdwards · 03-18-2003, 10:11 PM

Crap,

I understand that. I understand soft power might have produced a nation of many American loving Chinese people. The problem is, they're still controlled by a not-so-American loving Communist Government... and I still believe many Chinese enjoy the fruits of capitalism and while still believing the ideology of communism. I'm not sure that's a great way to bring about change. After all, hasn't exactly worked so far.

astralhaze · 03-18-2003, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
Crap,

I understand that. I understand soft power might have produced a nation of many American loving Chinese people. The problem is, they're still controlled by a not-so-American loving Communist Government... and I still believe many Chinese enjoy the fruits of capitalism and while still believing the ideology of communism. I'm not sure that's a great way to bring about change. After all, hasn't exactly worked so far.

So what is your proposal for turning China in to a capitalist country? That is, of course, assuming we have a right to do so
.

CamEdwards · 03-18-2003, 10:24 PM

I'm not the one who brought up China. JohnGalt brought it up as an example of the success of non-agression. I was just pointing out my opinion that if we're trying to initiate regime change in China, we haven't accomplished that.

FWIW, Astral, I don't think we have a "right" to turn any country into a capitalist country. Just because we've promised the Iraqi people the right to freely elect a government of the people.. does that mean they'll choose capitalism? Hell, they might choose a radical fundamentalist imam as their head of state. I doubt it, considering they've lived under a dictator for the past 34 years, but they might.

If they do, we'll have to deal with that. But after talking to a number of Iraqi-Americans, I believe that democracy will take root. There's one thing that most Iraqi-Americans agree on: democracy can and will work in Iraq. They might differ on how to get there (I've talked with some opposed to war, some supportive) but they believe it is a realistic objective.

astralhaze · 03-18-2003, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CamEdwards
FWIW, Astral, I don't think we have a "right" to turn any country into a capitalist country. Just because we've promised the Iraqi people the right to freely elect a government of the people.. does that mean they'll choose capitalism? Hell, they might choose a radical fundamentalist imam as their head of state. I doubt it, considering they've lived under a dictator for the past 34 years, but they might.

Holy shit. We actually agree on something

Vaj · 03-19-2003, 08:50 AM

Recently came across an interesting article. Figure this is as good a place as any to post the introductory paragraphs:

"As President Bush steers the U.S. toward war, history offers a sobering lesson.

For two centuries, foreign powers have been conquering Mideast lands for their own purposes, promising to uplift Arab societies along the way. Sometimes they have modernized cities, taught new ideas, and brought technologies.

But in nearly every incursion, both sides have endured a raft of unintended consequences. From Napoleon's drive into Egypt through Britain's rule of Iraq in the 1920s to Israel's march into Lebanon in 1982, Middle East nations have tempted conquerers only to send them reeling....

Again and again, Westerners have moved into the Mideast with confidence that they can impose freedom and modernity through military force. Along the way they have miscalculated support for their invasions, both internationally and in the lands they occupy. They have anointed cooperative minorities to help rule resentful majorities. They have been mired in occupations that last long after local support has vanished. They have met with bloody uprisings and put them down with brute force."

Bee · 03-19-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vaj
Recently came across an interesting article. Figure this is as good a place as any to post the introductory paragraphs:

"As President Bush steers the U.S. toward war, history offers a sobering lesson.

For two centuries, foreign powers have been conquering Mideast lands for their own purposes, promising to uplift Arab societies along the way. Sometimes they have modernized cities, taught new ideas, and brought technologies.

But in nearly every incursion, both sides have endured a raft of unintended consequences. From Napoleon's drive into Egypt through Britain's rule of Iraq in the 1920s to Israel's march into Lebanon in 1982, Middle East nations have tempted conquerers only to send them reeling....

Again and again, Westerners have moved into the Mideast with confidence that they can impose freedom and modernity through military force. Along the way they have miscalculated support for their invasions, both internationally and in the lands they occupy. They have anointed cooperative minorities to help rule resentful majorities. They have been mired in occupations that last long after local support has vanished. They have met with bloody uprisings and put them down with brute force."

Ahh yes, the old moral...

Once you fail, quit, quit again.

Fritz · 03-19-2003, 08:58 AM

there are many lessons to be learned from inaccurate history.

Vaj · 03-19-2003, 12:09 PM

Tell that to the editors of the Wall Street Journal, guys. The above was lifted from the front page of today's issue.

Fritz · 03-19-2003, 12:11 PM

My appologies. Journalists would never resort to inaccurate history to support a point.

CamEdwards · 03-19-2003, 12:47 PM

I wouldn't necessarily call that an article. I'd call that more of an op-ed piece.

Vaj · 03-19-2003, 02:04 PM

Hmm. Who's more trustworthy, the Wall Street Journal or the Fritz News Network? Hmmm....

HEY!!! That anchormidget looks familiar!

CamEdwards · 03-19-2003, 02:32 PM

at least we haven't lost our sense of humor, and the knowledge that we are all united in our ability to make fun of one another.

Fritz · 03-19-2003, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vaj
Hmm. Who's more trustworthy, the Wall Street Journal or the Fritz News Network? Hmmm....

Well, I am not working on a deadline and trying to sell newspapers....

03-18-2003, 08:02 PM	#53
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	The problem with "soft power" is that it doesn't actually effect change. You can talk about soft power all you want, but last time I checked there was still a great deal of anti-american sentiment among those in charge in China. You could claim that soft power is what led to the anti-American sentiment espoused by Osama bin Laden and his ilk. After all, we did nothing to bin Laden, he's just against the spread of western influence in the Muslim world. I'm sorry your job doesn't allow you to freely express your personal beliefs. What made you decide your paycheck is more important than your values? __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-18-2003, 10:11 PM	#56
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	Crap, I understand that. I understand soft power might have produced a nation of many American loving Chinese people. The problem is, they're still controlled by a not-so-American loving Communist Government... and I still believe many Chinese enjoy the fruits of capitalism and while still believing the ideology of communism. I'm not sure that's a great way to bring about change. After all, hasn't exactly worked so far. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-18-2003, 10:24 PM	#58
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	I'm not the one who brought up China. JohnGalt brought it up as an example of the success of non-agression. I was just pointing out my opinion that if we're trying to initiate regime change in China, we haven't accomplished that. FWIW, Astral, I don't think we have a "right" to turn any country into a capitalist country. Just because we've promised the Iraqi people the right to freely elect a government of the people.. does that mean they'll choose capitalism? Hell, they might choose a radical fundamentalist imam as their head of state. I doubt it, considering they've lived under a dictator for the past 34 years, but they might. If they do, we'll have to deal with that. But after talking to a number of Iraqi-Americans, I believe that democracy will take root. There's one thing that most Iraqi-Americans agree on: democracy can and will work in Iraq. They might differ on how to get there (I've talked with some opposed to war, some supportive) but they believe it is a realistic objective. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-19-2003, 08:50 AM	#60
Vaj H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Lawn Gisland, NY	Recently came across an interesting article. Figure this is as good a place as any to post the introductory paragraphs: "As President Bush steers the U.S. toward war, history offers a sobering lesson. For two centuries, foreign powers have been conquering Mideast lands for their own purposes, promising to uplift Arab societies along the way. Sometimes they have modernized cities, taught new ideas, and brought technologies. But in nearly every incursion, both sides have endured a raft of unintended consequences. From Napoleon's drive into Egypt through Britain's rule of Iraq in the 1920s to Israel's march into Lebanon in 1982, Middle East nations have tempted conquerers only to send them reeling.... Again and again, Westerners have moved into the Mideast with confidence that they can impose freedom and modernity through military force. Along the way they have miscalculated support for their invasions, both internationally and in the lands they occupy. They have anointed cooperative minorities to help rule resentful majorities. They have been mired in occupations that last long after local support has vanished. They have met with bloody uprisings and put them down with brute force." __________________ "To all of those here who work in marketing or advertising: kill yourselves." -- Bill Hicks "Christianity's such an odd religion. The whole image is that eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love" -- Bill Hicks

03-19-2003, 08:58 AM	#62
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	there are many lessons to be learned from inaccurate history. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

03-18-2003, 09:57 PM	#55
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	Cam, I respect most of what you're saying, but not all Chinese people are anti-American.

03-19-2003, 12:09 PM	#63
Vaj H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Lawn Gisland, NY	Tell that to the editors of the Wall Street Journal, guys. The above was lifted from the front page of today's issue. __________________ "To all of those here who work in marketing or advertising: kill yourselves." -- Bill Hicks "Christianity's such an odd religion. The whole image is that eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love" -- Bill Hicks

03-19-2003, 12:11 PM	#64
Fritz Lethargic Hooligan Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: hello kitty found my wallet at a big tent revival and returned it with all the cash missing	My appologies. Journalists would never resort to inaccurate history to support a point. __________________ donkey, donkey, walk a little faster

03-19-2003, 12:47 PM	#65
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	I wouldn't necessarily call that an article. I'd call that more of an op-ed piece. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

03-19-2003, 02:04 PM	#66
Vaj H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Lawn Gisland, NY	Hmm. Who's more trustworthy, the Wall Street Journal or the Fritz News Network? Hmmm.... HEY!!! That anchormidget looks familiar! __________________ "To all of those here who work in marketing or advertising: kill yourselves." -- Bill Hicks "Christianity's such an odd religion. The whole image is that eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love" -- Bill Hicks

03-19-2003, 02:32 PM	#67
CamEdwards Stadium Announcer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Burke, VA	at least we haven't lost our sense of humor, and the knowledge that we are all united in our ability to make fun of one another. __________________ I don't want the world. I just want your half.

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