Peyton Manning wins 3rd NFL MVP

[Racer]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

How many of those wins were thanks to Manning? One reason I think the Colts have a decent shot at winning it all this year is they have as much luck going for them as the 2001 Pats. They were a hair away from losing at least 3 or 4 of those games.

Week 17: Mostly Jim Sorgi beating the nothing-to-play-for Titans
Week 16: Losing 24-14 after 3 to the JAGUARS, with the winning points coming off an INT return for a TD
Week 15: 10 point win over the Lions, a game which was tied at 21 early in the fourth quarter
Week 14: Okay, they just blasted the Bengals off the field.
Week 13: 10-6 victory over the BROWNS, with the winning points coming on a Robert Mathis 37-yard fumble return for a TD
Week 12: 23-20 victory over the Chargers, with a 51-yard FG from Vinatieri winning it
Week 11: 33-27 over the Texans, the infamous "Sage Rosenfels implodes" game
Week 10: 24-20 over the Steelers, where Manning goes 21-40 for only 240 yards but 3 TDs, a game mostly won because Big Ben throws 3 picks
Week 9: 18-15 over the Patriots, where Jabar Gaffney dropped a sure TD and David Thomas made a bone-headed 15-yard dead-ball penalty that took them out of FG range at the end of the game

I think you could make a strong case that Manning kept them in position to win those games, but he wasn't the one making the key plays in most of them. The defense was responsible for 3 (Steelers, Browns, Jaguars) and the opponent imploding handed them 2 (Patriots, Texans). So talk of the winning streak doesn't sway me, especially given how critical some of the other mentioned players were for other playoff-bound teams. And as pointed out, over the final 7 weeks the only winning record team they played was the already-locked-up-top-seed Titans in week 17 in which both teams rested a lot of players.

The Sage Rosenfels implosion game was the first Colts-Texans game of the season which was in week 5. Also, I wouldn't really say the Patriots imploded against the Colts. They just plain got beat by the Colts this year. I don't think the Colts would have won more then 5 or 6 games this year if Jim Sorgi had started all 16 games. Anyways, if I could vote for MVP, this is how I would have ranked the top 5:

1. DeAngelo Williams
2. Peyton Manning
3. Michael Turner
4. Philip Rivers
5. James Harrison

[Senator]

Congrats to Manning, he is the best QB in the game.

[SFL Cat]

Since the Cowboys *CHOKED*, I'd like to see a Peyton-Eli Super Bowl.

[jbergey22]

Adrian Peterson
Albert Haynesworth
Peyton Manning
Michael Turner
Phillip Rivers

Williams has a great year but IMO it seemed a lot of his TD's and yards came when the game was already decided therefore he didnt make my list.

Pennington despite being very solid isnt on my list. When I think of MVP's I want something more than just being solid.

I acutally think the Giants offensive line as a unit should get it as its too hard to name just 1 because they are a unit but there line is simply the most dominant force in the NFL right now.

I voted AP because he is the biggest game changer in the NFL right now. The fact that teams has to gameplan their entire defense around him makes everyone on the offense better.

[mrsimperless]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Early in the season they were playing good teams with good defenses.

Game	Result	Def Rank	Pass Def Rank
CHICAGO BEARS	13 - 29 L	#21	#30
@ Minnesota Vikings	18 - 15 W	#6	#18
JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS	21 - 23 L	#17	#24
@ Houston Texans	31 - 27 W	#22	#17
BALTIMORE RAVENS	31 - 3 W	#2	#2
@ Green Bay Packers	14 - 34 L	#20	#12
@ Tennessee Titans	21 - 31 L	#7	#9
NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS	18 - 15 W	#10	#11
@ Pittsburgh Steelers	24 - 20 W	#1	#1
HOUSTON TEXANS	33 - 27 W	#22	#17
@ San Diego Chargers	23 - 20 W	#25	#31
@ Cleveland Browns	10 - 6 W	#26	#14
CINCINNATI BENGALS	35 - 3 W	#12	#15
DETROIT LIONS	31 - 21 W	#32	#27
@ Jacksonville Jaguars	31 - 24 W	#17	#24
TENNESSEE TITANS	23 - 0 W	#7	#9

I'm not sure what if anything this proves, but I would say that your blanket statement is wrong. The last game against the Titans can obviously be thrown out, but that still leaves some quality wins over good defenses including wins over the #1 and #2 ranked pass defenses in the league.

(Sorry about the formatting issue, not sure what I did wrong)

[mtolson]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Adrian Peterson
Albert Haynesworth
Peyton Manning
Michael Turner
Phillip Rivers

Williams has a great year but IMO it seemed a lot of his TD's and yards came when the game was already decided therefore he didnt make my list.

Pennington despite being very solid isnt on my list. When I think of MVP's I want something more than just being solid.

I acutally think the Giants offensive line as a unit should get it as its too hard to name just 1 because they are a unit but there line is simply the most dominant force in the NFL right now.

I voted AP because he is the biggest game changer in the NFL right now. The fact that teams has to gameplan their entire defense around him makes everyone on the offense better.

The only reason I see DeAngelo Williams not winning was because he split time with Stewart a lot early in the season. The last 8 games he rushed for 993 yards and 15 TD's with a average per carry of 6.49 !!! Without Stewart he would have probably crossed the 2000 mark.

The TD thing I don't get. He was by no means the mop-up scorer for the team.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Racer

The Sage Rosenfels implosion game was the first Colts-Texans game of the season which was in week 5. Also, I wouldn't really say the Patriots imploded against the Colts. They just plain got beat by the Colts this year.

You are correct, I didn't look closely enough at that game and forgot they played twice.

As for the Pats, I'm mostly referring to the dead-ball penalty that kicked the Pats out of tying FG range. But the kickers were the MVPs for that game...

[Raiders Army]

Thinking about it, all the people who think Pennington should've won should give the MVP to Favre. If Favre hadn't un-retired, Pennington would've been in New York so he wouldn't have had the chance to turnaround Miami.

So see, Favre is technically the NFL MVP!

[SFL Cat]

*thumbs up*

I can't fault reasoning like that.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I still think there is still a bit of a bias toard the white QB when it comes to MVP voting. Manning had a real good year, but he still played a soft schedule and didn't even win his division.

Williams was the best player on the best team in the NFC.

Can you please leave the race talk out of it? Did you forget about LT, McNair and Shaun Alwxander's MVP's?

Were AP and Turner worthy candidates, absolutly. And I agree there is a Manning bias in the league, but I wouldn't say it's because of skin color.

As for the Panther being the best team in the NFC, umm, no.

I realize I am a Giants homer but we just beat them and the road to the super bowl goes through Giant stadium. The Panthers are right here but the Giants are still the best team.

I realized the Giants lost a few games down the stretch, but people need to keep on mind their last ten games were against .500 or better teams, 6 of those teams were playoff teams and if you count out the loss to the Vikings ( who the almost beat with the second team in a game the vikes had to win) they were 7-2. Including wins at Pitt, Philly and Arizona.

The Panthers meanwhile in their last 10 games player 4 teams with winning records and lost to 2 of them, plus almost blew it in the last week. In those 10 games they beat the Lions, Oakland, Denver, Green Bay and the Saints twice. They played 3 playoff teams and went 1-2.

The Panthers are right there, but the Giants are the class until knocked off.

[DeToxRox]

The reason AP shouldn't win MVP is how many fumbles he had, especially on 4th and 1's and at the goalline.

Turner I think has the most legit gripe, especially when Matt Ryan really wasn't that good (he was great for a rookie, but in the grand scheme of things, without Turner they're a 5 win team)

Without Peyton though the Colts are probably also a 5 win team.

[stevew]

Ryan was 0-5 when he threw more than 30 times. Granted he would have thrown a lot more if they were behind I suppose. Basically he was rookie season Big Ben, not that there's anything wrong with it

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by stevew

Ryan was 0-5 when he threw more than 30 times. Granted he would have thrown a lot more if they were behind I suppose. Basically he was rookie season Big Ben, not that there's anything wrong with it

Agreed. He's gonna be a very good QB, but without Turner that team was fucked, thus I think he'd be the best candidate besides Peyton.

[flere-imsaho]

I think "fucked" is a bit strong. Without Turner opposing defenses are able to key against the pass a bit more, but I don't think the Falcons are a 2-14 team or anything.

[flere-imsaho]

I don't get the Adrian Peterson talk for MVP, and this is coming from a guy who has him in fantasy.

Maybe I didn't see enough Vikings' games, but it seemed to me that even though he gave opposing defenses a lot of problems, and certainly racked up the yards, he was, this season, never a difference-maker when the Vikings needed one (in fact, sometimes it was worse, with the fumbles). Of course, a lot of the blame for this could be laid at the feet of Childress, but I can't put Peterson, this season, in the same place as a guy like Manning.

[gstelmack]

They just threw up the graphic that the Colts gave up the fewest passing TDs (6) ever in a 16-game season.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I don't get the Adrian Peterson talk for MVP, and this is coming from a guy who has him in fantasy.

Maybe I didn't see enough Vikings' games, but it seemed to me that even though he gave opposing defenses a lot of problems, and certainly racked up the yards, he was, this season, never a difference-maker when the Vikings needed one (in fact, sometimes it was worse, with the fumbles). Of course, a lot of the blame for this could be laid at the feet of Childress, but I can't put Peterson, this season, in the same place as a guy like Manning.

Id agree with you. You didnt see enough Viking games

[Senator]

Nice game Turner.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Kodos

Glad to see Manning win again. He is the best QB of this generation.

amen.

[Buccaneer]

I still would vote for Peyton as the MVP this season.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by mrsimperless

I'm not sure what if anything this proves, but I would say that your blanket statement is wrong. The last game against the Titans can obviously be thrown out, but that still leaves some quality wins over good defenses including wins over the #1 and #2 ranked pass defenses in the league.

(Sorry about the formatting issue, not sure what I did wrong)

I think those pass defenses were bad in part to the fact they were losing a ton of games and teams were running on them in the second half. The end of the schedule sees some horrible defenses and even more horrible teams.

I'm not saying he's bad, just saying that everyone is trying to talk about how he came through so strong at the end of the year. 4 of the last 5 games were against arguably the worst teams in the league. The last game was against a team who played no starters.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Can you please leave the race talk out of it? Did you forget about LT, McNair and Shaun Alwxander's MVP's?

Were AP and Turner worthy candidates, absolutly. And I agree there is a Manning bias in the league, but I wouldn't say it's because of skin color.

As for the Panther being the best team in the NFC, umm, no.

I realize I am a Giants homer but we just beat them and the road to the super bowl goes through Giant stadium. The Panthers are right here but the Giants are still the best team.

I realized the Giants lost a few games down the stretch, but people need to keep on mind their last ten games were against .500 or better teams, 6 of those teams were playoff teams and if you count out the loss to the Vikings ( who the almost beat with the second team in a game the vikes had to win) they were 7-2. Including wins at Pitt, Philly and Arizona.

The Panthers meanwhile in their last 10 games player 4 teams with winning records and lost to 2 of them, plus almost blew it in the last week. In those 10 games they beat the Lions, Oakland, Denver, Green Bay and the Saints twice. They played 3 playoff teams and went 1-2.

The Panthers are right there, but the Giants are the class until knocked off.

I personally think the Panthers are a little better, but I think the teams are real close. But I can understand your argument.

I'm not saying race is the reason for the vote, I'm saying that there is a strong bias toward QB, a primarily white position. It seems the media falls in love with players and they rarely are the black RB or WR. Now I'm a white guy saying this, and I don't think it's racism. I just think there is a subconcious sway toward white athletes. Lets call it the Steve Nash effect.

Adrian Peterson is by far the most dominant offensive player in football. He can break one one any carry. The guy was up against 8 and 9 man fronts all year since the Vikings have no quarterback. I just don't feel the same way watching Peyton. Sure he's a great QB, but he isn't the threat and the playmaker that Peterson has been all year.

As for the race issue, just take a look at some of the previous years.

2007 - While Brady is a great QB, Randy Moss turned that team into what it was. This is a guy who made Daunte Culpepper a Pro Bowler. I just don't see how Moss doesn't get any respect in the MVP voting. Not a single first place vote (Favre recieved the only other one that Brady didn't get). Shouldn't this have at least been a tie or close?

2001 - Kurt Warner won the MVP despite Faulk being the best player in the league.

1999 - Kurt Warner wins the MVP while Faulk had one of the greatest offensive seasons ever. He had 1000 yards rushing and receiving, over 2400 total. The guy was unstoppable. Warner was great but that offense was so stacked.

1997 - While it's a tie, there is absolutely no reason it should be. Barry Sanders put up in my opinion the greatest single season we've ever seen from a RB. Those numbers with his offense in this era is ridiculous. Favre was the best player on the best team in the NFC, but it wasn't one of his best years. He threw 16 INT and had a QB rating of 92. There is no reason Barry Sanders shouldn't have won the award by himself.

1995 - Breakout year for Favre but Rice had a phenomenal year. Rice had 122 catches and over 1800 yards. It's probably the greatest season a receiver has ever had.

1990 - Probably the worst MVP voting in league history. Montana who had a down year wins it over Rice who had 100 catches and 1500+ yards. This was when 100 catches was unheard of. For anyone that watched that season, Rice was unstoppable. Montana had 26TD/16INT and a QB rating of 89. Was the end of his career in San Francisco. I have no idea how he won it.


I'm not saying all these votes were wrong, but many were. There is a huge bias in this league toward QBs. I don't know if that bias is fueled by the position or a little bit of race. I do believe the media has a Steve Nash/Tyler Hansborough "Great White Hope" bias. It could also just be the media taking the easy way out and voting for the face of the offense instead of the guy that makes the offense so valuable.

In any event, I think there is a strong case that QBs are given much lower expectations for the award. The Colts offense was not good this year, it ranked 15th in the league. I think the playoff game clearly showed that Manning and the Colts weren't as powerful as the media portrayed them to be.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I don't get the Adrian Peterson talk for MVP, and this is coming from a guy who has him in fantasy.

Maybe I didn't see enough Vikings' games, but it seemed to me that even though he gave opposing defenses a lot of problems, and certainly racked up the yards, he was, this season, never a difference-maker when the Vikings needed one (in fact, sometimes it was worse, with the fumbles). Of course, a lot of the blame for this could be laid at the feet of Childress, but I can't put Peterson, this season, in the same place as a guy like Manning.

You have to watch the team. He is ridiculous. I hate the Vikings but I can appreciate a phenomenal player. The Vikings had no passing attack. They have probably the worst starting QBs in the league. He faced 8 and 9 man fronts all season. The guy still put up 1700+ yards with a high YPC.

I honestly think the guys who didn't vote for him haven't seen him or the Vikings play. Peterson is the whole team. They have nothing else on offense. It's sad to watch in a way.

[mrsimperless]

Can Peyton give the MVP back? I don't think it belongs in this city. I worked out being able to stay in the country for an extra couple of weeks mainly so I could watch football and now I wish I was gone.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

As for the race issue, just take a look at some of the previous years.

2007 - While Brady is a great QB, Randy Moss turned that team into what it was. This is a guy who made Daunte Culpepper a Pro Bowler. I just don't see how Moss doesn't get any respect in the MVP voting. Not a single first place vote (Favre recieved the only other one that Brady didn't get). Shouldn't this have at least been a tie or close?

2001 - Kurt Warner won the MVP despite Faulk being the best player in the league.

1999 - Kurt Warner wins the MVP while Faulk had one of the greatest offensive seasons ever. He had 1000 yards rushing and receiving, over 2400 total. The guy was unstoppable. Warner was great but that offense was so stacked.

1997 - While it's a tie, there is absolutely no reason it should be. Barry Sanders put up in my opinion the greatest single season we've ever seen from a RB. Those numbers with his offense in this era is ridiculous. Favre was the best player on the best team in the NFC, but it wasn't one of his best years. He threw 16 INT and had a QB rating of 92. There is no reason Barry Sanders shouldn't have won the award by himself.

1995 - Breakout year for Favre but Rice had a phenomenal year. Rice had 122 catches and over 1800 yards. It's probably the greatest season a receiver has ever had.

1990 - Probably the worst MVP voting in league history. Montana who had a down year wins it over Rice who had 100 catches and 1500+ yards. This was when 100 catches was unheard of. For anyone that watched that season, Rice was unstoppable. Montana had 26TD/16INT and a QB rating of 89. Was the end of his career in San Francisco. I have no idea how he won it.


I'm not saying all these votes were wrong, but many were. There is a huge bias in this league toward QBs.

In any event, I think there is a strong case that QBs are given much lower expectations for the award. The Colts offense was not good this year, it ranked 15th in the league. I think the playoff game clearly showed that Manning and the Colts weren't as powerful as the media portrayed them to be.

It's not a race bias. As you said, it is that QB's get the most credit for their team's success, right or wrong. Then again, a WR couldn't do much of anything without a capable QB to get it to him and Kurt Warner did lead some of the most successful passing offenses ever. If you look at the history of the MVP award, WR's almost never win it. The only one that has done it since the merger is Rice. It's a QB bias, not a race bias.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I personally think the Panthers are a little better, but I think the teams are real close. But I can understand your argument.

Not sure how you can say the Panthers are better since the Giants just beat them.

And this whole thread is pointless, we all know Brandon Jacobs got robbed.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm not saying he's bad, just saying that everyone is trying to talk about how he came through so strong at the end of the year. 4 of the last 5 games were against arguably the worst teams in the league. The last game was against a team who played no starters.

That's where I'm coming from as well.

[Kodos]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Not sure how you can say the Panthers are better since the Giants just beat them.

And this whole thread is pointless, we all know Brandon Jacobs got robbed.

You do realize that the Giants were very lucky to beat the Panthers, right?

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

It's not a race bias. As you said, it is that QB's get the most credit for their team's success, right or wrong. Then again, a WR couldn't do much of anything without a capable QB to get it to him and Kurt Warner did lead some of the most successful passing offenses ever. If you look at the history of the MVP award, WR's almost never win it. The only one that has done it since the merger is Rice. It's a QB bias, not a race bias.

What he said.

It's like saying not enough black coaches get recognized for coach of the year. They are picking the best coach, black or white. Just so happens there are 8 or 9 times the white coaches as there are black coaches.

QBs will always get more credit, and more blame, than they deserve, simply based on the position.

[ISiddiqui]

Interestingly enough, according to Football Outsiders rankings of RBs:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Adrian Peterson was 16th in Defensive Yards Above Replacement (total value) and 22nd in Defensive Yards Over Average (value per play). #1 in both measures was DeAngelo Williams.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Interestingly enough, according to Football Outsiders rankings of RBs:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Pro Football Prospectus 2008

Adrian Peterson was 16th in Defensive Yards Above Replacement (total value) and 22nd in Defensive Yards Over Average (value per play). #1 in both measures was DeAngelo Williams.

Fumbles take away a huge chunk of his value. He fumbled 9 times this season. Williams didn't fumble.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Id agree with you. You didnt see enough Viking games

I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong, but yesterday's game against Philly was another good example. Yes, he broke out for a 40-yard TD, and scored another TD from closer in, but other than that he got repeatedly stuffed for small gains. Was he in there for crucial 3rd downs? Did he get those crucial 3rd downs? Was he "unstoppable" in any way?

I guess what I expect from a RB to be "MVP-caliber" is:

• Consistently gets first downs. In doing so makes his offense basically "unstoppable" in the sense that he's keeping them moving down the field.
• Almost always gets positive yards, even when the run-blocking completely breaks down (i.e. gets grabbed in the backfield but still finds a way to get a yard or two).
• Ball security.
• If he gets past the front 4 (or 3), it's an automatic double-digit gain (dragging linebackers). If he gets past the linebackers, it's 20 yards or more.

Home runs aside, whenever I watch the Vikings it seems that Chester Taylor is more consistently productive. Of course, I'm sure there's a certain value in the fact that at any point AP could bust through the line and take it to the house, but if he does this once every 15-20 runs, have you really gained that much?