Kurt Warner: HOFer or Not - Page 2

MizzouRah · 01-19-2009, 10:32 PM

Did someone mention immobile Bugler in this thread?

RainMaker · 01-19-2009, 10:59 PM

Brenda Warner did go through a makeover.

Busted Coverage: Booze, Ladies And Football » When Did Brenda Warner Stop Looking Like Ivan Drago And Start Getting Hot?

ISiddiqui · 01-19-2009, 11:24 PM

Ha, I just saw that comparison between the old Brenda Warner and the new one a few minutes ago on Deadspin.

cuervo72 · 01-19-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cartman

Craig Morton is the only I can think of off the top of my head. He took over for Staubach when he got hurt one season, then QB'd the Broncos to their first Super Bowl.

Earl Morrall deserves at least an Honorable Mention, even though he didn't start for the '72 Dolphins, he did steer the ship for most of the season (after getting to SB III with the Colts).

DanGarion · 01-20-2009, 12:47 AM

So if Warner is in so is Terrell Davis.... right?

Terrell Davis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Career stats
Rushing Yards 7,607
Average 4.6
Touchdowns 60
Stats at NFL.com
Career highlights and awards

* 3x Pro Bowl selection (1996, 1997, 1998)
* 3x First-team All-Pro selection (1996, 1997, 1998)
* 2x Super Bowl champion (XXXII, XXXIII)
* NFL 1990s All-Decade Team
* 1998 NFL MVP
* 1998 PFWA NFL MVP
* 2x NFL Offensive Player of the Year (1996, 1998)
* 1996 UPI AFL-AFC Player of the Year
* 1997 Super Bowl MVP

Glengoyne · 01-20-2009, 02:19 AM

It's kind of funny in that I'm an original believer. I drafted him as a taxi squader when Trent Green(?) went down, or maybe I dropped someone and picked him up because I knew who he was from Arena ball. In any case, I've always been a fan, even cursing the Rams and pretty much anyone else who benched the guy. IMO he is a solid performer.

I'm just not convinced that he is HOF material. Going against him are his benchings/inconsistency and a relatively short career. Going for him are his on the field and post season results as well as some big time stats like completion percentage and QB rating.

Raiders Army · 01-20-2009, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcchief19

That's a slippery slope because if we say the sacks, interceptions and fumbles are a product of the system, aren't the yards and touchdowns product of the system too? His best years were in St. Louis running an offense where Trent Green and Marc Bulger took over for him when he to hurt and the team didn't miss a beat. The current Arizona scheme isn't terrible different from what St. Louis did -- step back and throw timed passes quickly. When Warner ran more traditional offenses in New York and earlier in Arizona, he didn't fare well. Is he a product of a system?

Dan Fouts was a system QB too and he's in the Hall of Fame. But he didn't turn the ball over and take sacks with the frequency of Warner either.

Good points. You're right.

Autumn · 01-20-2009, 07:33 AM

I think if they win this Super Bowl he'll almost definitely get in. I agree with the sentiment that he's probably not as talented as his numbers seem, and he will get in because of the success of the teams he's been on, luck and a great story. But that's sports, right? We all know there might be some guys getting cut off the team right now who are better than the rest but just didn't get things to roll their way. It's futility to approach the Hall of Fame as anything that can be done on a rational basis.

stevew · 01-20-2009, 07:31 PM

If Big Ben wins this Super Bowl doesn't it pretty much punch his ticket as well. The only QBs to start and win 2 bowls and not make the HoF are plunkett and Brady. A good game here in victory and 5 or so more solid seasons make Ben a virtual lock. Despite what you haters think.

Daimyo · 01-20-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew

If Big Ben wins this Super Bowl doesn't it pretty much punch his ticket as well. The only QBs to start and win 2 bowls and not make the HoF are plunkett and Brady. A good game here in victory and 5 or so more solid seasons make Ben a virtual lock. Despite what you haters think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

The Pittsburgh Steelers won Super Bowl XL 21–10 over the Seattle Seahawks in Detroit on February 5, 2006. Roethlisberger had one of the worst passing games of his career, completing just 9 of 21 passes for 123 yards and two interceptions; his passer rating of 22.6 was the lowest in Super Bowl history by a winning quarterback.

Super Bowl wins is such a junk stat for quarterbacks...

Autumn · 01-20-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daimyo

Super Bowl wins is such a junk stat for quarterbacks...

True, but if the HoF was based on stats it would be easy, we'd just check the chart and admit the right people. Admittance clearly bears little relation to rational stat checking, and clearly fans and voters often correlate greatness with winning. In a sport so team-driven as football that ensures some craziness in selection.

MizzouRah · 01-20-2009, 11:09 PM

So 17 people know nothing about football?

SFL Cat · 01-20-2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter

Cant stand the guy but its a no brainer.

Sure you're not confusing Kurt with his wife?

Although in all honesty, she's looking better these days than she did when Kurt was with the Rams.

Warhammer · 01-21-2009, 12:05 AM

Someone made an interesting argument today. Look at Manning's rate and average stats over the regular season. Compare those to Warner and they are nearly identical. Then take a look at the playoff stats and see who you would prefer. Its an interesting debate.

RainMaker · 01-21-2009, 01:51 AM

I know I've been sticking up for Warner, but after more thought, I don't think he deserves it. I still think he was a product of that system and those players. He had one of the greatest offensive weapons in football on his squad, along with two perrenial Pro Bowl Wide Receivers. He has had some real bad seasons and been benched for crap.

He had some great years, and won a couple MVPs (although one of them should have gone to Faulk). But he wasn't consistently a top QB. He was never on that level of Manning or Brady. He was never a QB that could win a game by himself.

I think he's a great QB when surrounded by talent. That's about it. Deserves a lot of credit for a great career, but not Hall of Fame worthy.

M GO BLUE!!! · 01-21-2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Ha, I just saw that comparison between the old Brenda Warner and the new one a few minutes ago on Deadspin.

RainMaker · 01-21-2009, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

That's just wrong.

Sgran · 01-21-2009, 08:06 AM

I voted yes, but it's not a highly committed yes. My problem is that he didn't play particularly well in the 2 super bowls he played in. His big touchdown throw against the Titans (my favorite SB, by the way) was a badly underthrown pass that Holt (?) had to come back for and the Titans dbs overran. Other than that I don't remember him doing much, certainly not as much as McNair, who almost killed himself on that final drive. But Warner was the heart of the Greatest Show on Turf. The funny thing for me now is hearing how he isn't mobile, but I remember him rolling out a lot for the Rams with that mobile pocket they would set up. Absolutely deadly.

Sweed · 01-21-2009, 09:16 AM

I voted yes. I think when he has played with some talent around him he has performed very well. He's certainly not the only QB that succeeded because he was in the right system with talented people around him.

Looking over the list of HOF QB's I don't see anyone that didn't play for some good teams. The only one I'm not sure of is Sonny Jurgenson and how good the Eagles were when he was there. I don't recall the Redskins being very good until the end of his career when George Allen arrived and he was fighting Kilmer for playing time. I think the least worthy on the list is Namath, and has been mentioned made it mostly on the strength of beating the Colts.

One more thing about him being a "system" QB with the Rams. Too my mind he not only benefited from the system but he ended up being a victim of it. Martz being the genius he was (sarcasm intended) would never make any adjustments, specifically keeping in blockers, to the offense to help Warner. His attitude was he would dictate the play ie send out five into the pattern and rely on Kurt to find the right guy before he got hit. Meanwhile the rest of the NFL is making adjustments to the Rams and getting better and quicker pressure on the pocket, knowing the Rams weren't keeping in anyone to block on virtually any play, with Warner taking a beating. Let Warner go and bring in Bulger and now keep in extra blockers because of his inexperience. If he had bothered to do this with Warner, and we're not talking every play but at least mix it up, the team would have been much better off as well as Kurt himself.

Abe Sargent · 01-21-2009, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion

So if Warner is in so is Terrell Davis.... right?

Terrell Davis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Career stats
Rushing Yards 7,607
Average 4.6
Touchdowns 60
Stats at NFL.com
Career highlights and awards

* 3x Pro Bowl selection (1996, 1997, 1998)
* 3x First-team All-Pro selection (1996, 1997, 1998)
* 2x Super Bowl champion (XXXII, XXXIII)
* NFL 1990s All-Decade Team
* 1998 NFL MVP
* 1998 PFWA NFL MVP
* 2x NFL Offensive Player of the Year (1996, 1998)
* 1996 UPI AFL-AFC Player of the Year
* 1997 Super Bowl MVP

If I had a vote, I'd vote in those with shorter but massive careers cut short by injury such as TD or another case - Tony Boselli.

M GO BLUE!!! · 01-21-2009, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

If I had a vote, I'd vote in those with shorter but massive careers cut short by injury such as TD or another case - Tony Boselli.

True.

If a RB came into the league and absolutely DOMINATED. Ran for over 2500 yards as a rookie, had 30+ TD's and won the Super Bowl, then could never play again due to some reason not involving steroids... he would go in no problem.

View Poll Results: Kurt Warner
Yea	97	82.91%
Nay	20	17.09%
Voters: 117. You may not vote on this poll

01-19-2009, 11:24 PM	#53
ISiddiqui Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Ha, I just saw that comparison between the old Brenda Warner and the new one a few minutes ago on Deadspin. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams

01-20-2009, 12:47 AM	#55
DanGarion Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Great Northwest	So if Warner is in so is Terrell Davis.... right? Terrell Davis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Career stats Rushing Yards 7,607 Average 4.6 Touchdowns 60 Stats at NFL.com Career highlights and awards * 3x Pro Bowl selection (1996, 1997, 1998) * 3x First-team All-Pro selection (1996, 1997, 1998) * 2x Super Bowl champion (XXXII, XXXIII) * NFL 1990s All-Decade Team * 1998 NFL MVP * 1998 PFWA NFL MVP * 2x NFL Offensive Player of the Year (1996, 1998) * 1996 UPI AFL-AFC Player of the Year * 1997 Super Bowl MVP __________________ Los Angeles Dodgers Check out the FOFC Groups on Facebook! and Reddit! DON'T REPORT ME BRO!

01-21-2009, 08:06 AM	#68
Sgran High School Varsity Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Budapest	I voted yes, but it's not a highly committed yes. My problem is that he didn't play particularly well in the 2 super bowls he played in. His big touchdown throw against the Titans (my favorite SB, by the way) was a badly underthrown pass that Holt (?) had to come back for and the Titans dbs overran. Other than that I don't remember him doing much, certainly not as much as McNair, who almost killed himself on that final drive. But Warner was the heart of the Greatest Show on Turf. The funny thing for me now is hearing how he isn't mobile, but I remember him rolling out a lot for the Rams with that mobile pocket they would set up. Absolutely deadly. __________________ What the hell is Mike Brown diagramming for them during timeouts? Is he like the guy from "Memento" or something? Guys, I just thought of something … what if we ran a high screen for LeBron?

01-19-2009, 10:59 PM	#52
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Brenda Warner did go through a makeover. Busted Coverage: Booze, Ladies And Football » When Did Brenda Warner Stop Looking Like Ivan Drago And Start Getting Hot?

01-20-2009, 02:19 AM	#56
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	It's kind of funny in that I'm an original believer. I drafted him as a taxi squader when Trent Green(?) went down, or maybe I dropped someone and picked him up because I knew who he was from Arena ball. In any case, I've always been a fan, even cursing the Rams and pretty much anyone else who benched the guy. IMO he is a solid performer. I'm just not convinced that he is HOF material. Going against him are his benchings/inconsistency and a relatively short career. Going for him are his on the field and post season results as well as some big time stats like completion percentage and QB rating.

01-20-2009, 07:33 AM	#58
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I think if they win this Super Bowl he'll almost definitely get in. I agree with the sentiment that he's probably not as talented as his numbers seem, and he will get in because of the success of the teams he's been on, luck and a great story. But that's sports, right? We all know there might be some guys getting cut off the team right now who are better than the rest but just didn't get things to roll their way. It's futility to approach the Hall of Fame as anything that can be done on a rational basis.

01-20-2009, 07:31 PM	#59
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	If Big Ben wins this Super Bowl doesn't it pretty much punch his ticket as well. The only QBs to start and win 2 bowls and not make the HoF are plunkett and Brady. A good game here in victory and 5 or so more solid seasons make Ben a virtual lock. Despite what you haters think.

01-20-2009, 11:09 PM	#62
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Troy, Mo	So 17 people know nothing about football?

01-21-2009, 12:05 AM	#64
Warhammer Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dayton, OH	Someone made an interesting argument today. Look at Manning's rate and average stats over the regular season. Compare those to Warner and they are nearly identical. Then take a look at the playoff stats and see who you would prefer. Its an interesting debate.

01-21-2009, 01:51 AM	#65
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	I know I've been sticking up for Warner, but after more thought, I don't think he deserves it. I still think he was a product of that system and those players. He had one of the greatest offensive weapons in football on his squad, along with two perrenial Pro Bowl Wide Receivers. He has had some real bad seasons and been benched for crap. He had some great years, and won a couple MVPs (although one of them should have gone to Faulk). But he wasn't consistently a top QB. He was never on that level of Manning or Brady. He was never a QB that could win a game by himself. I think he's a great QB when surrounded by talent. That's about it. Deserves a lot of credit for a great career, but not Hall of Fame worthy.

01-21-2009, 09:16 AM	#69
Sweed College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2003	I voted yes. I think when he has played with some talent around him he has performed very well. He's certainly not the only QB that succeeded because he was in the right system with talented people around him. Looking over the list of HOF QB's I don't see anyone that didn't play for some good teams. The only one I'm not sure of is Sonny Jurgenson and how good the Eagles were when he was there. I don't recall the Redskins being very good until the end of his career when George Allen arrived and he was fighting Kilmer for playing time. I think the least worthy on the list is Namath, and has been mentioned made it mostly on the strength of beating the Colts. One more thing about him being a "system" QB with the Rams. Too my mind he not only benefited from the system but he ended up being a victim of it. Martz being the genius he was (sarcasm intended) would never make any adjustments, specifically keeping in blockers, to the offense to help Warner. His attitude was he would dictate the play ie send out five into the pattern and rely on Kurt to find the right guy before he got hit. Meanwhile the rest of the NFL is making adjustments to the Rams and getting better and quicker pressure on the pocket, knowing the Rams weren't keeping in anyone to block on virtually any play, with Warner taking a beating. Let Warner go and bring in Bulger and now keep in extra blockers because of his inexperience. If he had bothered to do this with Warner, and we're not talking every play but at least mix it up, the team would have been much better off as well as Kurt himself.

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