Hey kobe, remember us? your teammates

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Ragone
For the record, i am not anti kobe persay.. i'm anti anyone who thinks of themselves above the team, as kobe obviously did last night.. I guarentee he was thinking "hmm, My last game against jordan.. i wanna light him up"

Take lebron for example.. i watched some of his games, hell he passed quite a bit, to players Way inferior to himself.. I prefer team play to individual hot dogging anyday(not saying last night's outburst was hot dogging.. just a general statement)

Again, he was hitting nearly every shot he took. If a player like Kobe is on fire, then he SHOULD shoot.

Are you forgetting that Kobe has FIVE triple-doubles this year? ELEVEN games with 10+ assists? Only 14 games with LESS than 4 assists (he's played in 72 games).

He's 13th in the league in assists...#1 for SG's....yet he's a ballhog?

Wake up.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Please Rex.. McGrady, as well as Garnett and Duncan to name a couple of others, are right on par with Kobe Bryant.

Now Kobe Bryant is a great, great ballplayer, BUT the only reason Kobe gets so much love from the media is because he has a completely dominating player there with him (Shaq) that has enabled that ballclub to win a few NBA Titles.

I just don't think Kobe Bryant has that ability to make his teammates better that some of the other past & current superstars had/have. Now can he do it by himself if need be? Yeah sure to a point, but again I think we all saw just how far that was earlier this season (see: Many Lottery Balls for LAL).

Bottom line is you just can't do it all by yourself in the NBA and expect to even come close to challenging for a title.. I think we all know that.

And the other bottom line, as you should be able to see, I am a Laker Hater! How can you be a fan of a team that all of those Hollywood Anti-American Idiots love anyway?

Let's just hope the "Queens" or someone else out there in the West can finally beat LA this time around.

Again, he was hitting nearly every shot he took. If a player like Kobe is on fire, then he SHOULD shoot.

Are you forgetting that Kobe has FIVE triple-doubles this year? ELEVEN games with 10+ assists? Only 14 games with LESS than 4 assists (he's played in 72 games).

He's 13th in the league in assists...#1 for SG's....yet he's a ballhog?

Wake up.

Like you say, you just hate the Lakers. I would too if my team had never won anything.

[rexalllsc]

By the way, McGrady only has 6 games w/ 10+ assists compared to Kobe's 11 games w/ 10+ assists.

[damnMikeBrown]

I'd like to applaud rexalllsc for his own triple-dola

[MylesKnight]

Rex, you're forgetting the biggest stat of all my friend.. that being, the Mighty Lakers record minus Shaq.

I think it would be a safe assumption to say that record pales in comparison to the Magic's and the T-Wolves overall records, teams with only 1 "Superstar".

By the way, I used to have no problem with LA.. That is until Shaq decided to sell out and go live with all of those Hollywood SOB's.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Rex, you're forgetting the biggest stat of all my friend.. that being, the Mighty Lakers record minus Shaq.

I think it would be a safe assumption to say that record pales in comparison to the Magic's and the T-Wolves overall records, teams with only 1 "Superstar".

By the way, I used to have no problem with LA.. That is until Shaq decided to sell out and go live with all of those Hollywood SOB's.

Not very good...take away Orlando's most dominant player and see how they do. Take away any teams most dominant player.

First you say Kobe doesn't make the guys around him better. Obviously he does. He draws double and triple teams, leaving his teammates wide open. He has ELEVEN double-digit assist games.

[heybrad]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
And by the way, you never did answer this question..

1. "Where are all these pro Kobe people when he's shooting 13-34 or 11-30 while Shaq is getting less than 20 shot's in these games? "

2. Why is Shaq not getting the shots?


And Brad, what's up with these comments?

"Ask Rick Fox, Samaki Walker, Derek Fisher, or Robert Horry whose fault it was that the Lakers started slow without Shaq. They have all said publicly that the played those games with the attitude of, "wait until Shaq gets back." Anybody who actually watched those games could see that Kobe was the only player who brought his game every night."

3. Are those the World Champion Lakers or the Sacramento Queens? Sound like a bunch of excuse makers to me, my friend.

4. You play with what you've got, and what LA showed us is that without Shaq, they had a very good shot at LeBron James.. and that is a much more talented overall team minus Shaq & Kobe than the Magic are minus T-Mac.

Let me try and take these one at a time.

1. Kobe shoots 45% on the year. The 13-34's and 11-30's are few and far between or are you suggesting that he shoots 30% most of the time and has an occasional 90% game?

2. I thought I had covered why Shaq doesnt take as many shots this year, but I'll be happy to go into detail. Shaq has made numerous comments that he wants to see Kobe win the MVP. He stated at the beginning of the year they were switching the 1-2 punch with Kobe taking the lead. Personally, I think this was done for 2 main reasons. 1. Because Shaq has become lazy this year (and yes, thats coming from a Laker fan), coming in out of shape. 2. Zone defense rules allow 2 players to drape themselves on Shaq before he even has the ball.

3. They are the 3 time defending champs. Not bad, huh? Are you asking if Laker fans are frustrated with team this year? Absolutely. The feeling is that Rick Fox has fallen apart this year. Devean Georges effort went the window when he got his new contract. Samaki Walker has decided he's happy with one ring. Derek Fisher has decided he is a superstar. Robert Horry is having his typical season; nothing in the regular season, save it for the playoffs.

4. Everyone likes to refer to the Lakers record without Shaq. Since Shaq and Kobe joined the Lakers their record when Shaq does not play is 49-43. Not great, but not lotto bound either. Take away this years 11-19 for the reasons I've mentioned before (since you're blaming Kobe) and you're left with 38-24. Much better huh?

[MylesKnight]

Rex, your missing my point.

L.A. was playing with only 1 "Superstar", just as teams like Orlando and Minnesota do on a regular basis, and everyone saw how they performed. For whatever reason, the Kobe led and Shaq-less Lakers couldn't even come close to getting it done and weren't even in the same ballpark as the Wolves or Magic when it comes to the most important stat, Wins & Losses.

Just as Kobe's eleven, 10+ Assists games this season are, this is a fact my friend.


And Brad, you've made some good counter-points. Keep in mind though I'm only speaking of this season and this season only. How the Lakers did in '99-'00 without Shaq in the lineup doesn't really matter in '02-'03 does it?

In the end, the Lakers reign is coming to an end soon, whether that be this season or next the bottom line is the throne is soon to change hands and it's doubtful L.A. will get back to that level anytime soon there after.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by MylesKnight
Rex, your missing my point.

L.A. was playing with only 1 "Superstar", just as teams like Orlando and Minnesota do on a regular basis, and everyone saw how they performed. For whatever reason, the Kobe led and Shaq-less Lakers couldn't even come close to getting it done and weren't even in the same ballpark as the Wolves or Magic when it comes to the most important stat, Wins & Losses.

Just as Kobe's eleven, 10+ Assists games this season are, this is a fact my friend.

They're used to playing with Shaq as a focal point of the offense. He's not in there, and it's tough to adjust.

Sorry, but Kobe > McGrady

[The_herd]

Ok, mentioning the 13-34's and the 11-30's were to show that Kobe won't even defer to Shaq when he struggles. He has no clue what a team concept is. The reason I brought up these two games was Shaq got 16 and 18 shots resectively in them. I don't care how many assists he average's, he doesn't even attempt to get anyone else on the team involved offensively.

Take away Orlando's most dominant player? Uhhh, then you have a bunch of guys who couldn't win a CBA title. Hell, at least Minnesota would have Wally to take a few shot's (wouldn't he be in heaven).

And actually I'm not all that anti-kobe, I believe he is THE most talented player in basketball right now. He just has no idea how to play team basketball. I get sick of Kobe fans ignoring the fact that he has no idea how to play basketball, he just goes out on the floor to get some stats.

Talent wise: Kobe > McGrady
As a basketball player: McGrady > Kobe

[Daimyo]

I'd say pretty suredly that Orlando without McGrady would be a much better team than the Lakers without Shaq and Kobe.

How can you possibly criticize Kobe for the Lakers play without Shaq?? You can't possibly compare the Lakers without Shaq to any other team at full strength. For one, I'm sure the Lakers game plan is relies pretty heavily on Shaq... so not only do you lose his presence when he's out, but nearly all your offensive plays become pretty worthless. If the Lakers knew they wouldn't have Shaq I'm sure they would have different game plans (not to mention the $20M extra cap space they'd have to get better players). Secondly, the Lakers without Shaq not only lose his talent and presence, but they also effectively lose $20M against their cap because Shaq still takes away resources even when he can't play.

So yeah, of course the Lakers rely heavily on Shaq the way the team is built now. But if you take him away permanently and give them back the cap space I'm sure that 1) the team assmebled and game plans would be a lot different than it is now and 2) that Kobe led team would still be one of the best in the league. Why can't people just accept that Kobe and McGrady are both exceptional players, and given the right supporting cast are very capable of carrying their teams to great heights.

DISCLAIMER: I don't like the NBA and I despise the Lakers. But I do recognize that Kobe Bryant is the most impressive player I have ever seen in my lifetime. (pretty big considering I live in Chicago, idolized Jordan as a child, and loved the Bulls second only to the Pacers right up until about ~1997).

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by The_herd
As a basketball player: McGrady > Kobe

LOL. Kobe is ahead oh him in assists and boards, yet McGrady is the better all-around player. lol.

So the 'McGrady is a ballhog, but it's ok because his team sucks' argument is ok for McGrady, but not Kobe.

Sorry, but Kobe and Shaq are 1a and 1b. No one else on the team is ever a first option...and whattya know. Kobe and Shaq are #2 and #3 in scoring in the NBA. Looks to me like the right people have the ball.

Best players shoot. Other guys set picks.

[MrBug708]

Orlando is doing something right obviously because they arent that bad, yet everyone says they Tracy and Scrubs. Ok, then how does Orlando have any wins? Tracy must not be passing the ball either

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by Daimyo
I'd say pretty suredly that Orlando without McGrady would be a much better team than the Lakers without Shaq and Kobe.

How can you possibly criticize Kobe for the Lakers play without Shaq?? You can't possibly compare the Lakers without Shaq to any other team at full strength. For one, I'm sure the Lakers game plan is relies pretty heavily on Shaq... so not only do you lose his presence when he's out, but nearly all your offensive plays become pretty worthless. If the Lakers knew they wouldn't have Shaq I'm sure they would have different game plans (not to mention the $20M extra cap space they'd have to get better players). Secondly, the Lakers without Shaq not only lose his talent and presence, but they also effectively lose $20M against their cap because Shaq still takes away resources even when he can't play.

Pretty much spot on. The Lakers payroll w/o Shaq is about $31 million a year (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nba/s...es-was.htm#pay), seeing as he makes $21mil/year.

Face it...after Shaq and Kobe, the Lakers are downright paltry. Fox shows up every 10th game, and Horry is getting OLD.

[The_herd]

Of course the Lakers would be worse than Orlando without McGrady. Your taking the Lakers 2 best players away.

The criticizing of Kobe for the Lakers play without Shaq is because a player with Kobe's talent should be able to have the team at .500 or a little better. However, without Shaq this year Kobe didn't carry the team anywhere. McGrady doesn't have an 8 foot 500lb. monster on his team, he has Andrew DeClerq and Shawn Kemp (who might be 500lbs, but thats another story), yet the Magic continue to play decent basketball and will be in the playoffs again this year. Which is more than you could say about the Lakers if they had to play a full season without Shaq.

[MrBug708]

Man, I dont even know why I'm in this thread. Lakers will be hated like the Yankees are hated, like the Cowboys used to be hated.

BB ranks far behind the other major sports IMO

[MrBug708]

Hurd, even when Shaq came back, the Lakers were 9-9 with him in the lineup

[Daimyo]

I think its fair comparsion. I believe someone in this thread has said the following:

If (Orlando > Lakers - Shaq), then McGrady > Kobe

I refute this by saying this is false. My reasoning is that if you subtract McGrady and Kobe from that equation what is left on Orlando is significantly greater than what is left on the Lakers. Therefore, you can not say just because Orlando > LA - Shaq, McGrady is necessarily better than Kobe.

[vtbub]

I think the NBA is pretty unwatchable, but not because of Kobe. The NBA has become a lazy game of glorified one on one with eight other spectators on the court. Eastern conference teams like Philly and Boston have a star that shoots under 45% while having up to 1/3rd of the teams total shots, if not more. When the NBA looks more like the way it was played in the '80's, then I'll watch again.

[tucker342]

Shaq actually hasn't played much this year. If it wasn't for Kobe the Lakers wouldn't even be close to the playoffs.

[Neuqua]

Originally posted by tucker342
Shaq actually hasn't played much this year. If it wasn't for Kobe the Lakers wouldn't even be close to the playoffs.

It's not like Shaq was gone half the year, he missed 15 games. He's averaging 37.9 mpg. I don't know where that came from.

Neuqua

[ISiddiqui]

MJ could of been the only starter on the court for his team, and still win

Because in the late 80s, the Bulls won all those finals? Oh wait, I forgot. It was only when the Bulls had Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant (or Dennis Rodman) when Jordan won anything.

[The_herd]

The Bulls had Pippen and Grant in the late 80s also.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by rexalllsc
LOL. Kobe is ahead oh him in assists and boards, yet McGrady is the better all-around player. lol.

This goes right in with my Kobe only goes out to fill up the stat sheet arguement. I said nothing about McGrady being a better all-around player, I said he is a better basketball player.


The players on Orlando go out and play hard every night. The Lakers have Kobe, Shaq, and 3 other guys who set picks, just like you said. So who makes the players around him play not only better, but harder. A good sign of being a leader, which Kobe isn't.

And being a basketball player isn't about scoring points, getting rebounds, and piling up some cheap assists by throwing it down to Shaq. Its about understanding the game, what it takes to win, and make the players around you better, in that category Kobe doesn't have a clue.

[rexalllsc]

Originally posted by The_herd
This goes right in with my Kobe only goes out to fill up the stat sheet arguement. I said nothing about McGrady being a better all-around player, I said he is a better basketball player.


The players on Orlando go out and play hard every night. The Lakers have Kobe, Shaq, and 3 other guys who set picks, just like you said. So who makes the players around him play not only better, but harder. A good sign of being a leader, which Kobe isn't.

And being a basketball player isn't about scoring points, getting rebounds, and piling up some cheap assists by throwing it down to Shaq. Its about understanding the game, what it takes to win, and make the players around you better, in that category Kobe doesn't have a clue.

LOL. You're really spinning now. Don't get dizzy...

[Chuck]

Originally posted by Bishop
Difference was that MJ's team was in first place, and always was as long as he was playing.

Kobe's team isn't in first place, and probably wouldnt be in the playoffs if Shaq hadn't came back, and they would of lost lastnight without Shaq too.

Take a look at the spurs game, where he shot 11 for 30 with no assist, and they lost...

Difference between MJ and Kobe is MJ could of been the only starter on the court for his team, and still win, Kobe hasn't ever done anything for his TEAM without Shaq...

He's played great without him, but they've never been dominant TEAM without Shaq. lets say that again, TEAM.

MJ had magic, Kobe has talent.

I don't recall MJ ever winning a championship without Scottie. I seem to remember MJ not being on first place teams from 1984 thru 1990. MJ was a great player with tremendous drive. His stats speak for themselves. He didn't win by himself. Is Scottie as good as Shaq, doubtful. But Chicage was not a team of scrubs. It was a team built to maximize the talents of MJ and Scottie. MJ does make his teammates better, but that did not happen until later. By the way, both Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman are better third players than any third player on LA. Also, I seem to remember that Chicage still made it to the playoffs without MJ. Again, he didn't do it alone!

[Easy Mac]

Originally posted by The_herd
This goes right in with my Kobe only goes out to fill up the stat sheet arguement. I said nothing about McGrady being a better all-around player, I said he is a better basketball player.


The players on Orlando go out and play hard every night. The Lakers have Kobe, Shaq, and 3 other guys who set picks, just like you said. So who makes the players around him play not only better, but harder. A good sign of being a leader, which Kobe isn't.

And being a basketball player isn't about scoring points, getting rebounds, and piling up some cheap assists by throwing it down to Shaq. Its about understanding the game, what it takes to win, and make the players around you better, in that category Kobe doesn't have a clue.

Well obviously, winning 3 championships means Kobe has no idea how to win

The way I see it, the Lkers players don't play hard b/c they know they have Shaq and Kobe, the two best players in the league. The Orlando players play hard because they know they only have McGrady. McGrady doesn't MAKE them play hard, they play hard because there is no other guy to pick up the slack. Kobe doesn't have to worry about that.

Being a basketball player isn't about scoring points? Damn, I must have misread the rules of the game, because I thought you had to score to win?

[The_herd]

Ben Wallace made the all-star team because of his nifty offensive abilities then?

[Easy Mac]

So by your definition Dennis Rodman was a team player?

[Ragone]

And Bill Laimbeer was the Shaq of the 80's!

[Chuck]

However, the 1993-94 Bulls proved there was life without Michael Jordan. Although Chicago didn't win its fourth straight championship, it posted a 55-27 record (for second place behind the Atlanta Hawks in the Central Division) and advanced to the Eastern Conference Semifinals.

[Chuck]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
So by your definition Dennis Rodman was a team player?

A great defensive player, who night after night rebounded the ball? Could pass? Yea he wasn't to bad as a team player. Attitude? Horible.

[The_herd]

Originally posted by Easy Mac
So by your definition Dennis Rodman was a team player?

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I said, somewhere up there I defined Dennis Rodman as team player.

[Ragone]

Dennis Rodman Prided himself on his rebounding ability.. I think he developed a edge to make other nba players fear him, thus giving him a further edge on the boards(aka, what will he do next?)

[Chuck]

Hey, Rodman has won a Championship without MJ!

[Chuck]

All this posting has made me tired. I think I'll slip back into the darkness!

[MrBug708]

But he had Isaiah

[MrBug708]

Dola


Did Jordan lead his team to the playoffs last year? Kobe is on up on him there!

[The_herd]

Yeah, but did Isaiah ever score 42 in a half?

[MrBug708]

Did he ever score 42 in a game......lol

[Chuck]

Tracy McGrady 29.06 FGA/48 minutes
Kobe 27.53 FGA/48 minutes

Kobe needs to shoot more!

[MrBug708]

Well, Kobe passed to Shaq more and didn't score as much and the Lakers got punked by the Sonics