Ted Kennedy has passed

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I'm not sure why, when someone dies, it is considered poor form to remember anything bad about him. People who do bad things deserve to have people remember bad things about them.

I think the question is about the distinction between remembering the bad thing about them, versus responding to every post in the thread with another reminder about that bad thing. That's not a discussion, that's just trolling.

[Malificent]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think the question is about the distinction between remembering the bad thing about them, versus responding to every post in the thread with another reminder about that bad thing. That's not a discussion, that's just trolling.

+1.

Say your piece - you don't need to repeat it. The rest of the people in the thread can read.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think the question is about the distinction between remembering the bad thing about them, versus responding to every post in the thread with another reminder about that bad thing. That's not a discussion, that's just trolling.

Trolling is discussing a life-changing event for this woman? Someone in this thread said Kennedy paid a big penalty when he lost the presidency. That's an insane assertion. It's not even remotely similar to someone paying with their life.

[SirFozzie]

Right. I know you say you're completely different outside of FOFC, MBBF, but quite frankly, right now, my FOFC experience is about 100% better with you on my ignore list.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Trolling is discussing a life-changing event for this woman? Someone in this thread said Kennedy paid a big penalty when he lost the presidency. That's an insane assertion. It's not even remotely similar to someone paying with their life.

I didn't compare the two. It's just more of penalty than the fine or whatever he got 40 years ago. You seem to have a problem both reading other posts in this thread, and your own, in that you're saying shit over and over and over again. LOL at your assertion that you're "dicussing a life-changing event for this woman". That's what you think you're doing, seriously? You'd be easier to take if you were more genuine.

I kind of feel dirty to have defended you in the past....

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Incidentally I was not really talking about MBBF, just the idea that it's not cool to bring up someone's negatives after they've died. I really cannot think of a context where I'd try to defend MBBF even if I agreed with him.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Right. I know you say you're completely different outside of FOFC, MBBF, but quite frankly, right now, my FOFC experience is about 100% better with you on my ignore list.

That's not what I said to you specifically, but you're welcome to assert whatever you'd like. I'm not posting on this board to attack your character in any way.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Incidentally I was not really talking about MBBF, just the idea that it's not cool to bring up someone's negatives after they've died. I really cannot think of a context where I'd try to defend MBBF even if I agreed with him.

Misread your original post. Apologies.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

I think you should reread a little.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

A politician dies, and you expect a thread discussing his life and career isn't going to be political? Really?

+1

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

I think you should reread a little.

You're right. I should.

[stevew]

Oh god. I was just thinking about OJ too.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Incidentally I was not really talking about MBBF, just the idea that it's not cool to bring up someone's negatives after they've died. I really cannot think of a context where I'd try to defend MBBF even if I agreed with him.

There's definitely a difference between bringing up the negatives, bringing up a man's faults, looking at the damage he caused, reflecting on someone's overall impact positive v. negative, and just yelling "HE'S A DRUNK!" 10 times in a thread with no apparent substance or thought behind the posts.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by molson

There's definitely a difference between bringing up the negatives, bringing up a man's faults, looking at the damage he caused, reflecting on someone's overall impact positive v. negative, and just yelling "HE'S A DRUNK!" 10 times in a thread with no apparent substance or thought behind the posts.

Yeah, that's what I did.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

There's definitely a difference between bringing up the negatives, bringing up a man's faults, looking at the damage he caused, reflecting on someone's overall impact positive v. negative, and just yelling "HE'S A DRUNK!" 10 times in a thread with no apparent substance or thought behind the posts.

Then again, it's a lot simpler shorthand than recapping what a p.o.s. Teddy was in great detail repeatedly. I think that would get considerably more tedious pretty quickly.

Up the thread someone (and I don't recall who it was atm & the post isn't visible while I'm typing) referenced W.C. Fields and that's a pretty good point. I mean, the bloated red faced caricature of Teddy is probably the most lasting image of him, not his youthful James McArthur phase. He's pretty much the quintessential drunken politician so shorthanding him down to "he's a drunk" is at the very least equally valid with anyone who tries to heap praise upon the guy afaic.

FTR I guess, even I wouldn't have wished the nature of his demise on him. That seems like a particularly brutal way to die & I don't feel like he did enough actual damage to the nation (not for lack of trying perhaps) for me to not be somewhat sympathetic about what he endured in the past few months. That said, I'm certainly not shedding any tears of his removal from government either.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Yeah, that's what I did.

You're right, that's not what you did, that was an exaggeration on my part.

That's called, "admitting I was wrong"

Now you try it.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by molson

You're right, that's not what you did, that was an exaggeration on my part.

That's called, "admitting I was wrong"

Now you try it.

See post 58. Already admitted an error once in this thread, even before you did.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

FTR I guess, even I wouldn't have wished the nature of his demise on him. That seems like a particularly brutal way to die & I don't feel like he did enough actual damage to the nation (not for lack of trying perhaps) for me to not be somewhat sympathetic about what he endured in the past few months. That said, I'm certainly not shedding any tears of his removal from government either.

Sure, no one wishes him any unfortunate or painful death.

His removal from government doesn't change much overall. As a local commentator noted tonight on the radio, this does little more than allow the residents of Massachusetts to elect a young senator who is likely just as liberal as Ted Kennedy to serve another long series of terms.

[stevew]

Just for future clarification

When Robert Byrd dies is it ok to talk about him being an Exhaulted Cyclops
When Carter dies is it okay to talk about how he practically destroyed the economy and brought about stagflation(used for butter)
When Gingrich dies can we bring up the affairs and divorces?
When OJ dies can we talk about the Naked Gun movies.
When GHWB dies can we mention how his son wrecked the economy and started an unjust war.

Anyways we aren't talking about someone related to a member of the board here. His numerous faults are fair game.

We did have one thing in common I suppose. He enjoyed spending my money as much as I did.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Then again, it's a lot simpler shorthand than recapping what a p.o.s. Teddy was in great detail repeatedly. I think that would get considerably more tedious pretty quickly.

Up the thread someone (and I don't recall who it was atm & the post isn't visible while I'm typing) referenced W.C. Fields and that's a pretty good point. I mean, the bloated red faced caricature of Teddy is probably the most lasting image of him, not his youthful James McArthur phase. He's pretty much the quintessential drunken politician so shorthanding him down to "he's a drunk" is at the very least equally valid with anyone who tries to heap praise upon the guy afaic.

FTR I guess, even I wouldn't have wished the nature of his demise on him. That seems like a particularly brutal way to die & I don't feel like he did enough actual damage to the nation (not for lack of trying perhaps) for me to not be somewhat sympathetic about what he endured in the past few months. That said, I'm certainly not shedding any tears of his removal from government either.

What do you feel he did that was so horrible besides Chappaquiddick? Or is all over that incident?

[SirFozzie]

I think it has to deal with his politics and beliefs, not his personal failings (but again, his personal failings were quite enough for folks)

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What do you feel he did that was so horrible besides Chappaquiddick? Or is all over that incident?

That's like me saying "How do you feel about OJ, besides the double murders?"

This thread has gone exactly like it should have. As soon as I saw that he died, which is sad nonetheless, I remembered how much crap there was in the Helms thread rather then much respect.

Fair game

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I think it has to deal with his politics and beliefs, not his personal failings (but again, his personal failings were quite enough for folks)

Rereading this thread, I don't see much of any complaints about his policies. It's almost all problems with his personal failings.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What do you feel he did that was so horrible besides Chappaquiddick? Or is all over that incident?

Ever see the guy's voting record?

Truth is, afaic Chpqdck is an unfortunate bit of rich/famous/powerful guy getting away with something a regular joe likely wouldn't have but that's far from unique or even unusual.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

That's like me saying "How do you feel about OJ, besides the double murders?"

This thread has gone exactly like it should have. As soon as I saw that he died, which is sad nonetheless, I remembered how much crap there was in the Helms thread rather then much respect.

Fair game

What exactly is there to respect about Helms? Chappaquiddick was certainly horrible, but Kennedy did things other than that that were honorable.

This isn't to say that mentioning Chappaquiddick isn't fair game, I just don't think the two two scenarios are quite the same.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

What exactly is there to respect about Helms?

Eye of the beholder I guess.

There are few politicians whose efforts & intentions I hold in higher regard than those of Sen. Helms. We certainly part company on a few issues (abortion being the most glaringly obvious) but on the whole he was one of the all-time greats.

[EagleFan]

Passed a breathalizer? Now that would have been BIG news!!!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Eye of the beholder I guess.

There are few politicians whose efforts & intentions I hold in higher regard than those of Sen. Helms. We certainly part company on a few issues (abortion being the most glaringly obvious) but on the whole he was one of the all-time greats.

oh wait...you were serious.

i suppose that's to be expected. What's the old saying about being judged by the company you keep?

And the one about "do unto others..."

yeahhhh that's not gonna work out so well in that case.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i suppose that's to be expected. What's the old saying about being judged by the company you keep?

I'm good with that.

It's probably a toss-up whether I shared more personality traits or socio-political positions with Helms. I lean toward the former based on the "Senator No" quote combined with the ease with which I could come up with an issue where we disagreed completely, but I'd be comfortable enough with a comparison in either direction.

Like Popeye, I yam what I yam, and make no apology for that nor does it cost me a wink of sleep.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by stevew

Just for future clarification

When Robert Byrd dies is it ok to talk about him being an Exhaulted Cyclops
When Carter dies is it okay to talk about how he practically destroyed the economy and brought about stagflation(used for butter)
When Gingrich dies can we bring up the affairs and divorces?
When OJ dies can we talk about the Naked Gun movies.
When GHWB dies can we mention how his son wrecked the economy and started an unjust war.

Anyways we aren't talking about someone related to a member of the board here. His numerous faults are fair game.

We did have one thing in common I suppose. He enjoyed spending my money as much as I did.

I LOL'd

SI

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Incidentally I was not really talking about MBBF, just the idea that it's not cool to bring up someone's negatives after they've died. I really cannot think of a context where I'd try to defend MBBF even if I agreed with him.

Anytime you have a national figure, they're inherently flawed - parts good, parts bad, some people love them, some hate them. I think MBBF did it in a crude way, but when people/the media are lionizing a person, praising him and whitewashing over his faults there's going to be an inevitable backlash - this just shortened the cycle. Look at Michael Jackson's death and how long it took coverage to segue from praise to demonizing instead of just presenting a balanced picture from the beginning.

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

His removal from government doesn't change much overall. As a local commentator noted tonight on the radio, this does little more than allow the residents of Massachusetts to elect a young senator who is likely just as liberal as Ted Kennedy to serve another long series of terms.

Don't come from across the country and think you have any idea what's going to happen in Massachusetts politics. 95% of insiders don't and some are even trying to change the succession laws right now using Kennedy's death as a shield from public backlash. It's been 25 years since there was a open US Senate seat and there are 25+ politicians who have been jockeying for position since. Yes, the timing is off for a strong Republican run from a Weld or Romney, but there is a wide range of differences in the Democratic field, and certainly no one who will replace Ted Kennedy as an iconic liberal institution. Particularly if they can't get the laws changed and Kennedy's wife or someone installed until January this really hampers health care legislation (as well as almost any other large attempted bill). Kennedy might be a lightning rod for conservative voters, but he did have some pretty good personal friendships with Senators like Orrin Hatch that could have helped win the bipartisan support necessary to pass some sort of bill.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm good with that.

It's probably a toss-up whether I shared more personality traits or socio-political positions with Helms. I lean toward the former based on the "Senator No" quote combined with the ease with which I could come up with an issue where we disagreed completely, but I'd be comfortable enough with a comparison in either direction.

Like Popeye, I yam what I yam, and make no apology for that nor does it cost me a wink of sleep.

based on the fact he was an unrepentant segregationist in his political and personal life i'm not sure which of personality traits or socio-political positions you'd like to share. I suppose you could consider those positions and not personality traits, but i have to think they weren't necessarily easily separated.

[JediKooter]

My comments were definitely in jest about Kennedy. A pretty crappy way to die for sure, no arguments from me. However, being in the public eye, I think you lose certain 'things' that you can't complain about if people bring up or joke about. In politics, for every good thing you can associate with someone, you can count on someone bringing up something bad. It's just the way it is.

There's really no strong noticable attachment to the Kennedy family here in California that I've noticed like there is back east and in New England. Yeah, our governor is married to one, but, it never seems to be brought up much from what I have read or seen on tv.

So, Kennedys, meh...

Now Kennedy from MTV...different story.

[miked]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm good with that.

It's probably a toss-up whether I shared more personality traits or socio-political positions with Helms. I lean toward the former based on the "Senator No" quote combined with the ease with which I could come up with an issue where we disagreed completely, but I'd be comfortable enough with a comparison in either direction.

Like Popeye, I yam what I yam, and make no apology for that nor does it cost me a wink of sleep.

Was it his support of segregation, his opposition to the voting rights act, the civil rights act, desegregation, and a holiday for MLK? There's being senator no, then there's being an ignorant racist redneck.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Ever see the guy's voting record?

Truth is, afaic Chpqdck is an unfortunate bit of rich/famous/powerful guy getting away with something a regular joe likely wouldn't have but that's far from unique or even unusual.

I'm asking what specifically about his voting record would make you have joy to see his demise.

[sterlingice]

What is it with people lately? This is like the third or fourth time in the past month that people have kindof forgotten who JIMGA is.

SI

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Don't come from across the country and think you have any idea what's going to happen in Massachusetts politics. 95% of insiders don't and some are even trying to change the succession laws right now using Kennedy's death as a shield from public backlash. It's been 25 years since there was a open US Senate seat and there are 25+ politicians who have been jockeying for position since.

Perhaps I'm a bit cynical, but my money would be on someone else from the Kennedy clan winding up with that seat, assuming there's one that wants it. Fair or not, that's my general view on MA politics (well, and the Kennedy machine/mistique - still mildly shocked Kennedy Townsend lost the MD gubernatorial election).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

based on the fact he was an unrepentant segregationist in his political and personal life i'm not sure which of personality traits or socio-political positions you'd like to share. I suppose you could consider those positions and not personality traits, but i have to think they weren't necessarily easily separated.

Oh I'd definitely put those under positions on issues, as far as personality I was strictly thinking of broad traits such as his noted obstinate nature.

As an aside, I'm not sure "unrepentant segregationist" can be applied with complete accuracy to the man who not only hired James Meredith but also praised Harvey Gantt to the skies when he became the first black student admitted to Clemson University in 1963.

[larrymcg421]

I know. I'm always amused when someone acts shocked by something JimGA said and asks him a question designed to make it look like he's supporting something horrible - "so you agree with...?" The answer is yes. It's always yes.

[Schmidty]

Regardless of political junk, I only have one thing to say: Fuck cancer.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by stevew

Just for future clarification

When Robert Byrd dies is it ok to talk about him being an Exhaulted Cyclops
When Carter dies is it okay to talk about how he practically destroyed the economy and brought about stagflation(used for butter)
When Gingrich dies can we bring up the affairs and divorces?
When OJ dies can we talk about the Naked Gun movies.
When GHWB dies can we mention how his son wrecked the economy and started an unjust war.

Anyways we aren't talking about someone related to a member of the board here. His numerous faults are fair game.

We did have one thing in common I suppose. He enjoyed spending my money as much as I did.

I'd say yes on the first four, but the last one isn;t about George Edler at all, so I'd say its poor form and just bashing.

[Abe Sargent]

I think Sen Kennedy could have been a lot more if he were just a better man. He was in a position to influence the world due to luck (who he was born) and if he had been better, he would have been great. All of us could have "Could Have Been Better" on our tombstone though.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Perhaps I'm a bit cynical, but my money would be on someone else from the Kennedy clan winding up with that seat, assuming there's one that wants it. Fair or not, that's my general view on MA politics (well, and the Kennedy machine/mistique - still mildly shocked Kennedy Townsend lost the MD gubernatorial election).

Who's left? His wife may get appointed as the placeholder (we've already got Tsongas' wife as my congressional rep), but I can't see her lasting long. I don't think anyone here could name a surviving male Kennedy other than the Skakel's, but they're probably not gonna be picked. It seems like the clan below John F./Bobby/Ted dispersed away from Massachusetts, at least to Greenwich-area CT.

(I may be biased because I hate political royalty family's, but I really do think the mystique is of a past generation. Most people under 30 would probably have a hard time even knowing who JFK Jr. was outside of Seinfeld.)

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miked

Was it his support of segregation, his opposition to the voting rights act, the civil rights act, desegregation, and a holiday for MLK?

I wholeheartedly agree with his opposition to both the federal civil rights act & the MLK holiday, as well as with the notion of social engineering at gunpoint most particularly when the latter violates the one of most fundamental liberties of all: determining the right of association.

Clearly my interpretation & several SCOTUS rulings are in considerable disagreement on the right of association, one of the few areas where I seem to find myself in agreement with Libertarians such as Richard Epstein. Guess they're all racist rednecks too, although darned if I imagine you'll find too many New York born and Columbia/Oxford/Yale graduates that run into that particular description

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I think Sen Kennedy could have been a lot more if he were just a better man. He was in a position to influence the world due to luck (who he was born) and if he had been better, he would have been great. All of us could have "Could Have Been Better" on our tombstone though.

I don't want to excuse his personal flaws, but it's a wonder he made much out of himself after all three of his brothers were tragically killed.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I wholeheartedly agree with his opposition to both the federal civil rights act & the MLK holiday, as well as with the notion of social engineering at gunpoint most particularly when the latter violates the one of most fundamental liberties of all: determining the right of association.

Any Johnny Rebel in your music collection?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

Any Johnny Rebel in your music collection?

Closest thing would probably be Johnny Horton's Greatest Hits which has Johnny Reb among the tracks alongside Sink The Bismarck and Battle of New Orleans.

edit to add: There's probably something bordering on ironic that you knew who the guy was while I had zero name recognition & had to Google him

[DanGarion]

OMG I'm sure those talking about Kennedy's faults are completely virtuous and perfect and have never done anything wrong that people will continue to bring up over and over after you are dead...

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Closest thing would probably be Johnny Horton's Greatest Hits which has Johnny Reb among the tracks alongside Sink The Bismarck and Battle of New Orleans.

edit to add: There's probably something bordering on ironic that you knew who the guy was while I had zero name recognition & had to Google him

Not only do I know who he is, I've got some of his stuff on my computer. Morbid curiosity with historical significance I guess

Definitely not something I play when I have guests.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lungs

Not only do I know who he is, I've got some of his stuff on my computer. Morbid curiosity with historical significance I guess
Definitely not something I play when I have guests.

I'm vaguely familiar with the genre but in my area at least it had to be pretty much an underground sort thing by the time I'm old enough to remember music.(remember, even I wasn't born until '67)

What passed for "risque" or "off-color" in my family was Johnny Bond's Ten Little Bottles (and no, I'm not kidding about that)