Chiefs Tragedy

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I would like them to move the game to Thursday night Week 18, just before the playoffs begin and after the regulra season ends.

It would be wayyyyy different if the player got shot and killed in the parking lot by an assailant or something. It was either suicide or getting shot down by cops for this piece of trash.

[Young Drachma]

From the NFL rules, re: forefeit

• Forfeit . The Commissioner, (except in cases of disciplinary action; see last section on "Removing Team from Field"), League President, and their representatives, including referees, are not authorized unilaterally to declare forfeits. A forfeit occurs only when a game is not played because of the failure or refusal of one team to participate. In that event, the other team, if ready and willing to play, is the winner by a score of 2-0.

There's never been a forfeit in modern NFL history, so I don't think that'll happen.

[stevew]

Nobody's blaming this on Adderall Rage.....yet.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

24 hours ago if you told him that he would have killed her, then himself I am sure he would have told you you were insane.

It's amazing what people are capable of... over nothing.

[stevew]

Kansas City was a movie last night! Chitown we here baby!!!!!!

— Trey Songz (@TreySongz) December 1, 2012

[Young Drachma]

I don't delete tweets, nor am I insensitive to death. I had no knowledge of the murder/suicide incident until now & even still...

— Trey Songz (@TreySongz) December 1, 2012

As sad as it may be, it has nothing to do with me. Sending prayers up to the families and friends of the people involved

— Trey Songz (@TreySongz) December 1, 2012

[stevew]

it's good that someone finally contacted him....that was bizarre

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by stevew

Nobody's blaming this on Adderall Rage.....yet.

No, but the ESPN article did link it to the ex-NFL players who shot themselves due to PCS.

[albionmoonlight]

I think that "I don't delete tweets, nor am I insensitive to death" might have to become my life motto going forward. It's applicable in pretty much every context.

[claphamsa]

I understand this makes me a bad person... but my first thought was, should I now play steve smith at flex instead of owen daniels?

[bhlloy]

Any truth to the rumor he shot himself when both Pioli and Crennel assured him that they would both be with the Chiefs for many years to come?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by stevew

it's good that someone finally contacted him....that was bizarre

I don't understand what this musical "artist" has to be sorry for...?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

I'm wondering what the whole motivation was.. The facts are:

His mom was there visiting.

3-month old daughter.

They had recently been arguing.

She was out late at a concert, which upset him.

Leaving a 3-month old at home with her boyfriend (who had a lot of responsibilities to the team) and his mother, while staying out late for a concert while is kinda odd. Most new mothers are very protective and can't spend enough time with the baby. I would bet this is why they had been fighting, and why his mother was there. Nobody will probably ever know if his mom was being critical and a large source of the fighting, or if she showed up as a result of it to just help while the child's mother was out partying a lot.

That he shot her six hours after she got home might mean that her being out the night before probably isn't why he shot her. If it was, why wait six hours? Were they fighting the whole time or did they go to bed & get up fighting? He probably had to be at the facility for the walk through. Something this morning made him snap. Then he must have felt some form of guilt. If he didn't he would be in a jail cell right now instead of the morgue.

What a horrible, horrible tragedy.

[jeff061]

And there's also a million "facts" we will never know about. What's the point.

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

it's bad taste but the fact pioli and crennel were the crises team amuses me

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by frnk55

If they have a moment of silence tomorrow it should be for the victim not this fucking piece of shit.

That was my thought. I saw a bunch of tweets saying 'RIP..'

At the end of the day, he killed the mother of his child and left a 3 month old child with no parents. So ya, not really sad for him at all.

[Scoobz0202]

Originally Posted by Mustang

That was my thought. I saw a bunch of tweets saying 'RIP..'

At the end of the day, he killed the mother of his child and left a 3 month old child with no parents. So ya, not really sad for him at all.

Yea. I understand he was probably mentally ill. I am not the type to criticize those who commit suicide, either. But when you take somebody with you all sympathy is gone.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Mustang

That was my thought. I saw a bunch of tweets saying 'RIP..'

At the end of the day, he killed the mother of his child and left a 3 month old child with no parents. So ya, not really sad for him at all.

Kind of my thoughts. If the NFL, the Chiefs, or their plays spend one second trying to make him into some kind of victim or martyr I'll lose all respect for them.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

it's bad taste but the fact pioli and crennel were the crises team amuses me

Yeah. Me too.

[kcchief19]

Two lives were lost and both were tragedies. By all accounts, Jovan Belcher was a good guy. Clearly, something terrible happened to him to cause what happened today. Would it have been better if he only took his only life? Sadly, yes. But that doesn't mean his loss isn't something to mourn. I don't see any problem having a moment of silence for all of today's victims.

As for playing the game, I've seen some pretty idiotic columns on both sides, mostly saying don't play the game. I don't think it's up for any of us to decide. To me, the guys who should make the decision to play tomorrow are the 53 guys on the team, Crennel, Pioli and Gary Gibbs. If they want to play, let them. The reports are that those three and the team captains all voted to play, and that's good enough for me.

We've probably all worked with people who have died while we worked with them. I've worked with people who died in car accidents, illness, suicide and crime. It's horrible every time. But every time, we've all been expected to get back to work. It's tough, but it's what we do.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

The Chiefs will lose by 30. Hopefully nobody gets hurt.

It can go both ways. How many times have we seen a player or a team suffer a tragedy and go out and play with such emotion that they win in a blow out? I could definitely see that happening here; the team hasn't player well, and tomorrow they aren't going to be dwelling on that fact. There won't be any boos tomorrow; the fans are going to be supporting this team like they haven't all season.

Then again, sometimes you come out flat. The Oklahoma State football team played the day the women's basketball coaches' plane crashed, and they were clearly out of sorts.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NorvTurnerOverdrive

it's bad taste but the fact pioli and crennel were the crises team amuses me

I'm guessing that time and circumstance played the role here, not choice.

[miked]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

I'm wondering what the whole motivation was.. The facts are:


Leaving a 3-month old at home with her boyfriend (who had a lot of responsibilities to the team) and his mother, while staying out late for a concert while is kinda odd. Most new mothers are very protective and can't spend enough time with the baby. I would bet this is why they had been fighting, and why his mother was there. Nobody will probably ever know if his mom was being critical and a large source of the fighting, or if she showed up as a result of it to just help while the child's mother was out partying a lot.

This is beyond silly. I don't even know where to begin...

[NorvTurnerOverdrive]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I'm guessing that time and circumstance played the role here, not choice.

i know. but every atom in my body wants to make a slew of bad jokes

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Her facebook page is still up.

http://www.facebook.com/kasandra.m.perkins

[Abe Sargent]

Good luck KC



Today, we are all Chiefs

[stevew]

Why are we chiefs?

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

It can go both ways. How many times have we seen a player or a team suffer a tragedy and go out and play with such emotion that they win in a blow out? I could definitely see that happening here; the team hasn't player well, and tomorrow they aren't going to be dwelling on that fact. There won't be any boos tomorrow; the fans are going to be supporting this team like they haven't all season.

Then again, sometimes you come out flat. The Oklahoma State football team played the day the women's basketball coaches' plane crashed, and they were clearly out of sorts.

Perhaps I was wrong...

[IlliniCub]

And hearing reports a Cleveland Browns employee committed suicide at their practice facility

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by IlliniCub

And hearing reports a Cleveland Browns employee committed suicide at their practice facility

Great, is this the new thing?

[Chief Rum]

Am I the only one that doesn't view Belcher as a piece of shit, but instead as a victim of whatever mental illness he had? Because normal, stable people don't react this way and they certainly don't shoot others.

I think Belcher was likely a complete emotional mess, and we would be foolish to not consider the stress, possible PEDs and concussive hits that go along with being an NFL player.

Not trying to make excuses for the guy, just saying I'm not so sure we should so quickly thow him under the bus.

I view him and his GF as victims of the circumstances, as much as his own malicious actions.

[jeff061]

If we saw this happening more often with other people living a similar lifestyle, maybe it's a talking point, but we don't.

So he's a piece of shit.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Am I the only one that doesn't view Belcher as a piece of shit, but instead as a victim of whatever mental illness he had? Because normal, stable people don't react this way and they certainly don't shoot others.

I think Belcher was likely a complete emotional mess, and we would be foolish to not consider the stress, possible PEDs and concussive hits that go along with being an NFL player.

Not trying to make excuses for the guy, just saying I'm not so sure we should so quickly thow him under the bus.

I view him and his GF as victims of the circumstances, as much as his own malicious actions.

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I see domestic violence as more of a scourge on society than a product of mental illness. It's rampant, and occasionally rises to the level of murder. Many (maybe most) domestic batterers don't show any sign of violence in the rest of their lives. To their family and friends, "this wasn't like them." Almost every time. They just didn't know because they weren't the abuser's wife/girlfriend and things were kept quiet, usually with the help of the wife/girlfriend. The odds are good that Belcher had been violent or at least controlling with girlfriends in the past. It's a character flaw that many men have, and with the right spark, it leads to tragedy. I just see him as a run-of-the mill domestic batterer, because odds are, that's what he was. Unless there's some evidence that he also suffered from specific mental illness. Because Domestic violence on is own isn't a sign of mental illness, it's a sign that he had a pretty common negative character flaw with regard to intimate relationships.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I see domestic violence as more of a scourge on society than a product of mental illness. It's rampant, and occasionally rises to the level of murder. Many (maybe most) domestic batterers don't show any sign of violence in the rest of their lives. To their family and friends, "this wasn't like them." Almost every time. They just didn't know because they weren't the abuser's wife/girlfriend and things were kept quiet, usually with the help of the wife/girlfriend. The odds are good that Belcher had been violent or at least controlling with girlfriends in the past. It's a character flaw that many men have, and with the right spark, it leads to tragedy. I just see him as a run-of-the mill domestic batterer, because odds are, that's what he was.

Really you think being controlling and violent is a character flaw that many men have? Many? really? Many?

[molson]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

Really you think being controlling and violent is a character flaw that many men have? Many? really? Many?

Controlling or violent (or emotionally abusive), yes, many men have that flaw. We could debate what "many" means, but Im using that word as meaning I believe its more prevalent than general society thinks, and its not something that only "crazy" or otherwise "violent" men engage in. (Edit: And I would say "most" instances of domestic violence aren't reported, and that relationships that involve emotional abuse can potentially become violent with the right trigger.)

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by molson

Controlling or violent (or emotionally abusive), yes, many men have that flaw. We could debate what "many" means, but Im using that word as meaning I believe its more prevalent than general society thinks, and its not something that only "crazy" or otherwise "violent" men engage in. (Edit: And I would say "most" instances of domestic violence aren't reported, and that relationships that involve emotional abuse can potentially become violent with the right trigger.)

When I hear the word many, it makes me think a majority, and I honestly disagree with you about that. More men than women yes, but it's not many.

I do agree with you on the other points though.

[molson]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

When I hear the word many, it makes me think a majority, and I honestly disagree with you about that. More men than women yes, but it's not many.

I do agree with you on the other points though.

Well, I wouldn't say straight-up majority, just more common than general society might think, just because so much of it is private and in the home. And for the same reasons, a guy "not showing signs of violence" isn't really surprising. Point being, when I hear about domestic violence, I don't think, "that guy must have had a serious mental illness", more like, "that guy's a domestic batterer."

Edit: And hey, maybe he was a paranoid schizophrenic with delusions and we didn't know about it or it hadn't been diagnosed yet, but it's just much more likely someone shows public signs of having that degree of mental illness than they necessarily would show public signs of being a domestic batterer or controlling, etc. - the latter is much easier to hide, because it is, almost by definition, private.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm sure you're not the only one, but I see domestic violence as more of a scourge on society than a product of mental illness. It's rampant, and occasionally rises to the level of murder. Many (maybe most) domestic batterers don't show any sign of violence in the rest of their lives. To their family and friends, "this wasn't like them." Almost every time. They just didn't know because they weren't the abuser's wife/girlfriend and things were kept quiet, usually with the help of the wife/girlfriend. The odds are good that Belcher had been violent or at least controlling with girlfriends in the past. It's a character flaw that many men have, and with the right spark, it leads to tragedy. I just see him as a run-of-the mill domestic batterer, because odds are, that's what he was. Unless there's some evidence that he also suffered from specific mental illness. Because Domestic violence on is own isn't a sign of mental illness, it's a sign that he had a pretty common negative character flaw with regard to intimate relationships.

I hear ya, molson, and I know you saw a lot of this in your line of work. I generally agree with you that domestic violence is a scourge on society, and that its perpetrators are criminal assholes who are fully cognizant of their actions, or the susceptibility they have to the rgae that leads to theose incidents.

What is different here to me is that this is a murder-suicide. When a man hurts or kills a woman in a domestic violence incident, throw the book at him, because he is almost certainly willfully made the decision to do what he did and then followed through with it.

Suicide? That's a whole other ball of wax. I don't believe suicide is an option any clearheaded and well person makes outside of extraordinary circumstances. I don't think Belcher was well at all for him to do what he did to himself (much less anyone else).

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Suicide? That's a whole other ball of wax. I don't believe suicide is an option any clearheaded and well person makes outside of extraordinary circumstances. I don't think Belcher was well at all for him to do what he did to himself (much less anyone else).

Maybe realizing that he had just killed his girlfriend and was about to go to jail for a long time was the extraordinary circumstance?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Maybe realizing that he had just killed his girlfriend and was about to go to jail for a long time was the extraordinary circumstance?

Possible. But then I would think that his original decision to shoot his GF was not made in a rational frame of mind at all.

My concept of the "evil domestic abuser", as it were, is a guy who actively and rationally chooses to hurt his wife/GF/partner. He has little real guilt about it, views it as his right or justifies it in some way. That's not a guy who gets all bent out of shape with the guilt, and who I believe completely deserves to go to prison.

Belcher sounds like a guy who went into an uncontrollable rage and shot his GF, never clearly considering the consequences. Then he calmed down and realized what he had done. He did this in front of his own mother and his three-month old daughter. That doesn't sound like a rational decision to me (anymore than the suicide).

Again, not someone that is necessarily better than the previous "evil domestic abuser", but the circumstances aren't quite the same in my mind. I agree with not honoring him and making this about honoring domestic abuse victoms and working to protect future victims, but everything about what Belcher did says rage was at the base of it, and we're talking, again, about an NFL player, who, by definition, lives a stressful life (especially in-season), probably takes steroids and has no doubt taken hundreds of violent hits to the head since he was in Pop Warner.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

Kansas City Chiefs had provided counseling to Jovan Belcher, Kasandra Perkins - ESPN

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by M GO BLUE!!!

Kansas City Chiefs had provided counseling to Jovan Belcher, Kasandra Perkins - ESPN

That makes a whole lot more sense as to why Pioli and Crennel didn't have to ask any questions when he showed up.

[stevew]

Jamal Charles has to be feeling pretty bad. He set the couple up(victim was his wife's cousin)

[jeff061]

Seeing a lot of Belcher apologists out there. It's a little unnerving.

[molson]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Seeing a lot of Belcher apologists out there. It's a little unnerving.

Just wait until his brain shows "CTE" (which has now been found in 34 of the 35 tested NFL players brains).

[Glengoyne]

It was a bit annoying Sunday to see all of the players discussing his "loss". Now I get it that he was their friend and all of that, and the terrible toll of those unfortunate enough to be present with him. That said, he wasn't the victim here. He was the ass hole. At least the Chiefs had the common sense to hold a moment of silence "for the victims of domestic abuse".

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

It was a bit annoying Sunday to see all of the players discussing his "loss". Now I get it that he was their friend and all of that, and the terrible toll of those unfortunate enough to be present with him. That said, he wasn't the victim here. He was the ass hole. At least the Chiefs had the common sense to hold a moment of silence "for the victims of domestic abuse".

I don't think we have the right to be upset at friends who are sad about this.


When my friend and her daughter were the victim of a murder suicide b y their husband, one of the thoughts I had was that it was easy to hate him, because I had never met him. I tried to imagine what it must be to be on the other side, and have one of your buddies, co-workers, etc just come out of nowhere and pull this. How do you react?

Without being there, can we really judge these people for their honest feelings? Really? Sure, the guy's an asshole, but his friends were just hit by a massive shock, and you get annoyed by their response?

We just don;t have that right to judge them like that.

[jeff061]

Yeah, I'm not upset from his friends. Just listening to the radio, random people call up all day insisting she must have done something to set him off, that she is likely to blame to some extent. I get the feeling there is a decent sized group of people that actually believe this.

[kcchief19]

The story is just getting more sordid and bizarre. Now it appears that Belcher was out partying Friday night, not sitting at home waiting for her to show back up. In fact, witnesses say he was at another woman's apartment at 1 a.m., the time his girlfriend arrived home from the concert. The witnesses, say he has been to the other woman's apartment several times, and police approached him outside her apartment about 2:30 a.m. that morning because he was sleeping in his Bentley on the street.

Before shootings, Belcher spent part of morning at Armour Boulevard apartment - KansasCity.com

We only have a snapshot here, but the details we were getting this afternoon make it seem more and more likely than Belcher had some sort of mental issue going on or developing. Some of the details make it seem like he may have been bipolar or something.

[molson]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

The story is just getting more sordid and bizarre. Now it appears that Belcher was out partying Friday night, not sitting at home waiting for her to show back up. In fact, witnesses say he was at another woman's apartment at 1 a.m., the time his girlfriend arrived home from the concert. The witnesses, say he has been to the other woman's apartment several times, and police approached him outside her apartment about 2:30 a.m. that morning because he was sleeping in his Bentley on the street.

Before shootings, Belcher spent part of morning at Armour Boulevard apartment - KansasCity.com

We only have a snapshot here, but the details we were getting this afternoon make it seem more and more likely than Belcher had some sort of mental issue going on or developing. Some of the details make it seem like he may have been bipolar or something.

So he went to his other girlfriend's house but she wasn't letting him stay over so he pouted in the parking lot for while. Not really all that "bizarre" for an immature tool in their early 20s.

It's possible that he was just a douchebag jock domestic abuser who finally snapped, and then cowardly hid from the consequences. At the end of the day though, he'll probably end up with a medal or something.