Werewolf LXI - Ocean's Eleven (GAME OVER, SEE PAGE 19 FOR RESULT.)

[Lathum]

told you

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Lathum

wait!?

I thought we weren't going with the 10:00PM deadline??

I want to be very clear clap: I was converted on Day 4. So Days 1-3 when you were so convinced I was a wolf? I wasn't.

[Barkeep49]

I'll also say that today was absolutely painful to hold back on my anti-path logic today. The blaring point, left unsaid, was that if Lathum was converted there had to be a persuasive wolf to do it and that means, based on what we knew, that path HAD to be a wolf even if Lathum was bad. Congrats to path for pushing just the right buttons to win the game.

[Barkeep49]

What did happened on Day 1?

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I want to be very clear clap: I was converted on Day 4. So Days 1-3 when you were so convinced I was a wolf? I wasn't.

durnit!

[Lathum]

I may have put up a bigger fight had I known the deadline was still 10:00. That being said we neber would have looked at BK until it was to late.

I am absolutly amazed anyone could think Path wasn't a wolf

[claphamsa]

so we are left at the end of the day with heinz and BK as the only ones alive/ crap! well I was fooled.

[claphamsa]

also why the hell did the wolves not kill me when I was hooked on BK? I said I would kill him! wouldve taken out 2 vilegars at once?

[Lathum]

Thanks for running the game PerdueBrad. It was a fun theme.

[claphamsa]

dola X10 PB great game, maybe a few too many random events? Also you confirmed for us that Lantham was the BG after he revealed

wow 4 wolves and a rogues

[Lathum]

Ok.

so how many conversions were there ?

Also, next time I say we are going to lose the game if we don't lynch someone, please listen to me.

[Lathum]

If I may give some feedback I don't see a balance here.

There were 3 wolves, a rogue and a possible conversion.

We had a BG who can't protect themselves and didn't start the game with a seer.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Ok.

so how many conversions were there ?

Also, next time I say we are going to lose the game if we don't lynch someone, please listen to me.

i was convinced there was onl one left and it didnt matter ooppps

[PurdueBrad]

GM comments on the game (not that you may care!):

First, thank you ALL for playing. Running a game is kind of stressful but you guys made it a lot of fun. And fun to watch.

Lathum, again, my apologies regarding the wording differences between the night 1 and 2/3 PMs.

Path12, I have no idea how you pulled that off but nice job.

Now, I mentioned a few times that you guys kept hitting some rare, rare mechanics. Here are the ones I was referring to:

Day 1- ntndeacon had a 5% chance of hitting the scan that converted him. It went up greatly each successive night, but nice hit. Oh, and couldn't believe you lost St. Cronin but when the roles came out from Random.org, I knew it was a distinct possibility.

Night 1- To clear up what happened with night actions, the wolves did not submit a kill, hence no night kill.

Night 2- Path tried the kill and as persuasive wolf had his best percentage (70%) of converting here. But he didn't convert Chief, the rogue, and killed him instead.

Day 3- The tie...jeez! This was my rarest dynamic because it took both a tie and then random.org again hit the low percentage play. The highest percentage play here would've been dual deaths (60%) and then there were lesser likely options of player A dies but not B, B dies but not A, last voter dies, or the double-casino knockoff dynamic which for this game also resurrected St. Cronin.

Day 4- I wrote in a dynamic that put a ton of pressure on reveals. If a player revealed and a player counter revealed, each would be guaranteed to see it through to the next day as long as these reveals occured on the same day. This was a 50/50 hit, as the other option was a dual-death again. Because they both got to live, it reverted to the #2 vote getter, sndvls.

Night 4- This is the annoying hit and I apologized two or three times to Barkeep49. I HATE late game conversions and this one had a 10% chance of happening with Path's kill. And it hit. This is the one time, in all honesty, I considered doing a re-roll but in the spirit of the game knew that it would be unfair.

From here, St. Cronin actually did a hell of a job keeping the villagers going and had the village made it through tonight, a major victory was certain.

It was harder GM'ing than I thought (mainly because my wife was annoyed with me from 8:15-9:45 each night!) but I would honestly say that I overplanned in order to make sure the game stayed of interest and excitement. I would've preferred half of these dynamics be triggered and only one rare event. So I would cut the number of opportunities for these next time to keep it limited.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

i was convinced there was onl one left and it didnt matter ooppps

usualy when you think that something bad happens.

Also, was there a kill the night BK was converted?

That makes it virtualy impossible to figure it out. There was no way we were gonna win this game. By the time we backtracked to BK we would have been done for.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Lathum

If I may give some feedback I don't see a balance here.

There were 3 wolves, a rogue and a possible conversion.

We had a BG who can't protect themselves and didn't start the game with a seer.

I agree with you here. I felt that the early conversion set-up and a night two or three move from arrogant seer to seer would've made it a bit more balanced. When ntn hit the conversion immediately, I thought great, this'll play. The late conversion was of particular annoyance to me. However Lathum, there was one dynamic that you guys never hit. Anytime that St. Cronin would've been in the top three vote getters and live, you had a 50% shot at a double-casino knock off. The major victory was supposed to be much more in play, which is why the fourth wolf wouldn't have mattered. The major victory was to keep pressure on the wolves, but that got shot down immediately.

One other thing, I expected the items to have more of an influence. Pass had just a 10% chance of being night-killed without at least taking the wolf with him, if not defending himself, living, and killing the wolf. Of course, as you saw, Pass died and no wolf was killed that night. The syringe would've actually caused one wolf to kill another wolf had it been used on the night of an attack. Hammer/nails would've simply fended off an attack, buying villagers another night.

[Lathum]

Also Brad, I thought your write ups were some of the best we've ever seen!!

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Also Brad, I thought your write ups were some of the best we've ever seen!!

amen to that. didnt like the 10 pm deadline but thats not a highe deal! I like the noon games better

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Also Brad, I thought your write ups were some of the best we've ever seen!!

Really? Lathum, that really does mean a lot to me. I tried my best to get them up both quickly but put some personality into them, so thank you. Like I said, my fear was not making the game interesting enough (which 'caused me to make it a bit too much funhouse like, although I will say that random.org must be controlled by the devil!).

Lathum, one other balance thing I forgot. I figured that Claphamsa's veteran power would be more important but it never came about.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

amen to that. didnt like the 10 pm deadline but thats not a highe deal! I like the noon games better

The wolves know my feelings on part of this. One change I definitely would've made would be the 12 hour clocks and yeah, earlier. I thought I was helping west-coasters but forgot just how late 9 pm CST feels here, much less 10 pm EST. Especially when I usually didn't get write-ups on the board until about twenty after.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Really? Lathum, that really does mean a lot to me. I tried my best to get them up both quickly but put some personality into them, so thank you. Like I said, my fear was not making the game interesting enough (which 'caused me to make it a bit too much funhouse like, although I will say that random.org must be controlled by the devil!).

Lathum, one other balance thing I forgot. I figured that Claphamsa's veteran power would be more important but it never came about.

kept me alive! which turned otu not to be such a good hting!

[PurdueBrad]

Chief Rum- I have to know...which way were you going to pick on night two?

[PurdueBrad]

But again, I can't say it enough to each of you:

Thanks for making this a fun experience GM'ing my first game and for volunteering to play with rookie GM. I'm glad I've stumbled into WW.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

But again, I can't say it enough to each of you:

Thanks for making this a fun experience GM'ing my first game and for volunteering to play with rookie GM. I'm glad I've stumbled into WW.

shouldnt we be thanking you.........

[claphamsa]

oh yeah, and you never marked path as dead!!!! I want my kill :P

[claphamsa]

the more and more i think of this the more is sucks! I was sure that path was the wolf, just voted the other way for expediency! I blame BK!

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

dola X10 PB great game, maybe a few too many random events? Also you confirmed for us that Lantham was the BG after he revealed

Yeah, this was a struggle but Lathum had put himself out on a limb and was essentially ready to point his finger at somebody simply because I pasted from the wrong model and I thought it was smarter to confirm his role rather than let a person be lost due to a slip up. Plus, even though he couldn't night defend himself and this would make him a wolf target, items would've helped him.

[ntndeacon]

Great game PurdueBrad. I had late wondered about path being a pursuasive wolf but decided to keep quiet about it. hoping Iwas wrong.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Yeah, this was a struggle but Lathum had put himself out on a limb and was essentially ready to point his finger at somebody simply because I pasted from the wrong model and I thought it was smarter to confirm his role rather than let a person be lost due to a slip up. Plus, even though he couldn't night defend himself and this would make him a wolf target, items would've helped him.

as logn as it wasnt a slip, a learnign expienrence, and humblig one for me :'(

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Chief Rum- I have to know...which way were you going to pick on night two?

I tend to be a lone wolf. I was going to go it alone, and try to play both sides off of one another. Getting killed that night was a great disappointment to me.

I enjoyed the game for what little time I was in it.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

the more and more i think of this the more is sucks! I was sure that path was the wolf, just voted the other way for expediency! I blame BK!

It's ok. All you did was cost us the game.

chalk it up as a learning experience.

[st.cronin]

I enjoyed this game as much as any where I got lynched on day 1. That said I have 1 minor complaint: I still do not like games where events are determined by random.org. I think players should always have to make decisions based on information, instead of hoping that the dice fall their way.

That's my werewolf philosophy.

[Lathum]

JHeinze- can you explain your thought process behind trusting path based on the fact he allegedly scanned you?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I enjoyed this game as much as any where I got lynched on day 1. That said I have 1 minor complaint: I still do not like games where events are determined by random.org. I think players should always have to make decisions based on information, instead of hoping that the dice fall their way.

That's my werewolf philosophy.

I agree with this. Which makes my next game completely hypocritical.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I enjoyed this game as much as any where I got lynched on day 1. That said I have 1 minor complaint: I still do not like games where events are determined by random.org. I think players should always have to make decisions based on information, instead of hoping that the dice fall their way.

That's my werewolf philosophy.

My earlier games had alot more random.org in it than my last game did. I like having some sort of random in there for some parts, but what I found in games with alot of players and alot of roles and alot of items and alot of moving pieces is that having randomness in there it just creates all kinds of unforseen possibilities that can too easily throw my game out of balance.

I still likely will use some randomness in some things, but what I am more leaning towards these days is using randomness in minor areas where its a 50/50 chance for something to happen. I doubt I'll be using many 5% chance or 10% chance of success or failure possibilities as much anymore.

[Barkeep49]

I was going to send this privately to PB but since it's been talked about publicly:

I agree that the players should be what drives the game, with their decisions. I have, in my last few games, tried to almost eliminate random.org (virtually doing so in Survivor even for players' roles), but I don't think that's what is necessary to have a godo game. Instead it needs to be about informed consent. So, I could, for instance, choose to do something that has a 50% chance of success. Random.org will ultimately determine if it's successful or not, but it was based on a direct decision I made and I made it informed of the potential payoff or risk. Pass' game falls in this category where there is a random element, but it's based firmly on a choice made by the player. On the other hand, in this game there were a lot of dice rolls, without the players having any idea of the outcome. This takes the feeling of control away. In this case I think there could have been some simple fixes. For instance, it could have said in the rules that if the arrogant seer views the rogue there is a chance he would become the actual seer. Or that the persuasive wolf has a decreasing chance of converting somebody each day. Sometimes the nature of the mechanic dictates that it be secret. So, for instance, there could have been the secret rule about what happens if two players reveal with the same role. But as it was multiple events would happen and they seemed like they were out of left field rather than based on the actions of the players.

Which isn't to say this was a bad game, because it wasn't. It had some fabulous write ups, some intriguing mechanics (the idea of having a duke on each side is an intriguing twist). Plus PB didn't fall victim to one of the easiest traps I've seen GMs make: they claim not all roles are in the game but all roles ARE in the game. It's natural to do (you go through the hard work of designing it, seems like a waste not to use it) so props to PB for avoiding that pitfall and double props for his highly entertaining writeups.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

JHeinze- can you explain your thought process behind trusting path based on the fact he allegedly scanned you?

Persuasion, baby, persuasion.

I will never fake reveal without re-reading all the roles and ruleset twice over to make sure I don't make a stupid mistake like forgetting I wouldn't have seen Chief as the rogue. I felt bad pushing all the blame to Brad, but had no other way to go.

The reason for the reveal was simple. You guys had cleared everyone but us wolves and jeheinz once ntn revealed, so we were going to be done for. I had to try and at least shake it up somehow.

Great game by Brad, and I'll agree one of the most entertaining to read. I also really enjoyed playing with my fellow wolves. Good job all!

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by path12

The reason for the reveal was simple. You guys had cleared everyone but us wolves and jeheinz once ntn revealed, so we were going to be done for. I had to try and at least shake it up somehow.

!

which is exactly what I said you did. At least I was spot on with how you were thinking.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

also why the hell did the wolves not kill me when I was hooked on BK? I said I would kill him! wouldve taken out 2 vilegars at once?

I'd love to know the answer to this as well.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Lathum

which is exactly what I said you did. At least I was spot on with how you were thinking.

Totally. I know you would have played it the same way (though you would have had your story straight).

[path12]

One thing I've decided after a few games with it is that I'm not a huge fan of the 24 hour clock. There is too much that happens at deadline to have all bases covered beforehand.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by path12

One thing I've decided after a few games with it is that I'm not a huge fan of the 24 hour clock. There is too much that happens at deadline to have all bases covered beforehand.

I've never been a fan of the 24 hour clock for that reason, though I know there are several who will only play games with that. Since I like having players more, I would be curious to see if some GM would go with a short night cycle of a couple hours, as a sort of compromise.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I've never been a fan of the 24 hour clock for that reason, though I know there are several who will only play games with that. Since I like having players more, I would be curious to see if some GM would go with a short night cycle of a couple hours, as a sort of compromise.

Another option is the 24/24 clock - 24 hour day and night cycles. Might be worth an experiment.

I know there are a few advocates of the 24/12 clock, but I found that absolutely impossible to play, since I could never remember when the deadline was.

[ntndeacon]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Another option is the 24/24 clock - 24 hour day and night cycles. Might be worth an experiment.

I know there are a few advocates of the 24/12 clock, but I found that absolutely impossible to play, since I could never remember when the deadline was.

not neccesarily a bad alternative, but it would slow down games a fair amount.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Another option is the 24/24 clock - 24 hour day and night cycles. Might be worth an experiment.

I know there are a few advocates of the 24/12 clock, but I found that absolutely impossible to play, since I could never remember when the deadline was.

24/24 would REALLY slow down a game, as even 24/12 slowed things down. Since we've been having smaller games again (like 18 and under) a slower pace wouldn't be the worst. However, if we started having 20+ games again the slower pace would likely mean we'd want to run a small game somewhere in there, because it could take so long to finish. I personally liked the 24/12 solution, but then again I invented that so I suppose I'm partial

[Lathum]

I like the normal old school clock.

To me there is something enjoyable about waking up in the morning to see if I am still alive, it adds some realism to it.

I also like that is gives anyone who has a night action time to process what happend during the day, especialy at the deadline.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Another option is the 24/24 clock - 24 hour day and night cycles. Might be worth an experiment.

I know there are a few advocates of the 24/12 clock, but I found that absolutely impossible to play, since I could never remember when the deadline was.

over on tsw weve been doign a 24./ 24 and during the night its booooooorign! cuz no one says anything for fear of wolves.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I like the normal old school clock.

To me there is something enjoyable about waking up in the morning to see if I am still alive, it adds some realism to it.

I also like that is gives anyone who has a night action time to process what happend during the day, especialy at the deadline.

It really doesnt matter to me, but make the deadline noon or somethign i had to stay up late every night to see what happend!

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by claphamsa

It really doesnt matter to me, but make the deadline noon or somethign i had to stay up late every night to see what happend!

See you're new around here (Hi PineTar speaking of new players). Lathum likes to set a 9 AM action deadline and then posts the results at noon

[st.cronin]

As a GM, I find the 12/12 clock (or whatever variant Lathum uses - the 9/15 clock, perhaps) incredibly onerous. As a player, I do like it quite a bit, and understand why some people like it. Without the 24 hour clock, I just would not have the energy to keep running games.

I suggest somebody try a small game using a 24/24 clock at some point. I think we have formed a sort of "werewolf culture" here with biases against certain types of play that may actually be very rewarding.