Soccer Thread 2015-16

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Yeah, but you don't really need a coherent style either. I mean does Mourinho even have a coherent style from season to season?

Yep.

Formation wise he morphed from a 4-3-3 to a 4-2-3-1 between his first and second times at Chelsea, but the style of play remained the same in that:

1. Primarily compact and counter away from home with the four most forward players doing the majority of the attacking.

2. Higher line with pressing at home, with more license for fullbacks and centre mids to attack.

3. Wide midfielders drift inside to attack while the fullbacks fill into their positions to provide width. On defense, wide midfielders expected to retreat to help with defense.

4. At least one holding midfielder, usually paired with a deep-lying, more creative midfielder or a more active "runner". The former more at home, the latter more away.

5. A hard-working, bullying centre forward who creates chaos for the highly technical wide midfielders to exploit on attack.

[bhlloy]

Yeah, I was going to say that the Mourinho template is probably the greatest example of what you are talking about. Main reason that he never fit in at Real despite not getting terrible results. He absolutely has a way he wants to play.

Van Gaals style just doesn't fit the premiership. He's had some bad luck with injuries but ultimately the way he wants to play just isn't a good fit

[flere-imsaho]

Yeah, specifically the problem with Mourinho at Real* was that his system really only has roles for 4 primarily attack-minded players (which Perez won't condone, he wants 6+) and even then he still wants them to contribute on defense (which Ronaldo simply won't do).

*Well, the other problem** was that he has this persistent need to create conspiracies and in so doing and involving Casillas as the focus of his ire, he lost the team.

**Well, and the other, other problem is that he was operating against a historically good Barcelona team.

[ISiddiqui]

Mourinho may have tendencies, but plenty of players have mentioned that he changes his tactics depending on who he is playing, and it can be a completely different gameplan from week to week. And, of course, a lot has been said about last season where Chelsea in the 1st half of the season were a completely different squad from Chelsea in the 2nd half (they went from an attack focused team scoring tons of goals to a heavily counterattacking squad that was more that content to go 1-0).

In essence, a coherent style is overrated. Managers that are able to adapt is where it is at, and that is the opposite of Van Gaal.

For example:

Jose Mourinho's tactical adaptability, nuance make Chelsea a contender | SI.com

Chelsea’s pragmatism personifies manager José Mourinho’s ability as a master of preparation. He sees style of play situationally and according to the opponent.

The video in this link shows it as well (how Mourinho switches systems on the fly reacting to what is going on in the match and the opponent):
Pat Nevin analysis: Why Jose Mourinho is 'the Radical One' - BBC Sport

Though, regardless, if you are saying a team needs a coherent style and Van Gaal's defensive style doesn't fit the attacking style of Sir Alex and that's an issue holding them back, I'm sure that you'd agree that Chelsea under Ancelotti played differently than they did with Mourinho (the first time) and that wasn't a barrier to success.

[SirFozzie]

We have a soccer version of "I will not accept a banning".

Leverkusen against Dortmund halted after manager refuses to accept red card | Football | The Guardian

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

In essence, a coherent style is overrated. Managers that are able to adapt is where it is at, and that is the opposite of Van Gaal.

You're missing my point. In the article you quote, the point is made that Mourinho's system has some fundamentals, especially in how they build defensively, that remain the same from game to game. Maybe "coherent style" is the wrong phrase, and "system" is the correct word. Most good managers have a coherent system around which the team is built, but that can, yes, also be flexible in application depending on factors such as the opponent, the needs of the match (i.e. protecting a lead from the away leg), the weather, the players' condition, etc....

I outlined the fundamentals of Mourinho's system that have largely stayed the same (and coherent) over the years, even as elements of it have morphed, such as pushing a player like Oscar into the AM strata to work as an advanced destroyer.

Basically tactical adaptability can and should be part of a good, coherent system.

Though, regardless, if you are saying a team needs a coherent style and Van Gaal's defensive style doesn't fit the attacking style of Sir Alex and that's an issue holding them back,

What I'm saying is that you don't take a high-energy, attack-minded system, especially one that had been in place for almost 27 years, and replace it with a defensive-focused system that aimed to opportunistically nick goals (Moyes) and then a hyper-possession-focused system (Van Gaal), all the while turning over most of the players while also not necessarily bringing in players fit for either of the replacement systems and expect it to work.

I'm sure that you'd agree that Chelsea under Ancelotti played differently than they did with Mourinho (the first time) and that wasn't a barrier to success.

Not to cop out but Ancelotti, to me, is one of those outlier managers who's just really good at taking the players he's given and creating a system for them. Good international managers (i.e. of national teams) also tend to need to be this way. I give him a ton of credit, for instance, for finding a system that would work at Madrid where he was more-or-less required to play 6 attack-minded players each and every game.

[Easy Mac]

How about 17 year old American Christian Pulisic getting the starting nod for Dortmund today. Can't say that a lot of Americans have started for one of the best 5 teams in the world, let alone at 17. Tim Howard starting a few games for Man U might be the only other instance I can think of.

[SirFozzie]

When you play FIFA and you have the cheat codes...

beIN SPORTS USA on Twitter: "GOOOOOAL!!
Bend it like @22mosalah! A brace for Egyptian! 4-0 for @ASRomaEN. #SerieA https://t.co/6qmNJlBlBZ"

[kingfc22]

Ended up with some great games to see live at Levi's for the Copa. US/Columbia, Argentina/Chile, Uruguay/Jamaica and a QTR final.

[miami_fan]

2016 COPA AMERICA CENTENARIO GROUPS
GROUP TEAMS
A United States (A1), Colombia (A2), Costa Rica (A3), Paraguay (A4)
B Brazil (B1), Ecuador (B2), Haiti (B3), Peru (B4)
C Mexico (C1), Uruguay (C2), Jamaica (C3) Veneuzuela (C4)
D Argentina (D1), Chile (D2), Panama (D3), Bolivia (D4)

[bhlloy]

Brutal group for the US. Other than avoiding Chile, they probably got the toughest team in each pot.

[whomario]

Bayern up 2:0 at Juventus with 70% posession, playing without a real CB. They are starting Alaba and Kimmich, a 21 year old 5´9 player who played 2nd division up until last summer. It´s basically the equivalent of the Warriors small ball lineup. Not that Pep has much choice (all CBs out injured), but it´s still impressive.

Hah, as i type this Juventus gets onje back, 1:2 Dybala.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Ended up with some great games to see live at Levi's for the Copa. US/Columbia, Argentina/Chile, Uruguay/Jamaica and a QTR final.

Yeah, that's a murderer's row. Chile/Bolivia and Brasil/Peru (and a QTR) at Foxboro don't quite hold the same appeal.

[cartman]

I guess LvG got them really horny

[SirFozzie]

Well, you know those 18 year olds.

[SirFozzie]

Big night for England, they may have just done enough to keep them ahead of Italy on coefficient (to keep the fourth Champions League Spot)

[ISiddiqui]

Seems like USSoccer is backing Prince Ali for FIFA's President Vote tomorrow. Prince Ali appears to be running a distant 3rd, but he seems more preferable to Sheikh Salman (running 1st, and most troubling) or Infantino. I'd like to see UEFA and Infantino offer support for Ali after the first round of voting (mostly because even though Infantino will ask Ali to drop out - a lot of Ali's supporters in Asia or Africa may decide to go for Sheikh Salman instead - the US's 2nd choice is definitely Infantino, I'd think).

[SirFozzie]

Yikes. I don't think it could've gotten much tougher for England in the Round of 16 draw for the Europa League

Tottenham vs Dortmund
Liverpool vs ManYoo

[cartman]

The guy with one of the great names in the sports world, Tokyo Sexwale, announced at the end of his candidate's speech for FIFA president that he no longer was going to run for the position. Interesting timing considering the voting was going to occur after the speeches.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-so...-idUSKCN0VZ1OF

[ISiddiqui]

The reforms passed overwhelmingly (22 voted no... weirdos).

And just in, Gianni Infantino is the new President of FIFA... so the Presidency stays in Switzerland (but a bit cleaner part of it) .

[bhlloy]

Allegedly, considering he comes from the next village over

[miami_fan]

Great to see Sir Alex back on the bench and having the team in attack mode again.

[Sublime 2]

Spurs keep pace with a come from behind 2-1 win, making it 6 straight in the Barclays. Loving this young team!

[Young Drachma]

Fucking Swansea. A good effort until they just stopped. Can't expect the keeper to stop everything forever.

[law90026]

That was a spectacularly bad Arsenal performance. Choking again.

[sovereignstar v2]

English refs missing obvious penalties in cup finals. Nothing new here.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by law90026

That was a spectacularly bad Arsenal performance. Choking again.

I would much rather of had us play our B-team against Barcalona as there was no way we were going to beat them in the Champions League and have the #1 squad as rested as possible for this Man U game since the league is something we have an actual shot at. Not sure it would have made a difference, but ya never know.

[law90026]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

I would much rather of had us play our B-team against Barcalona as there was no way we were going to beat them in the Champions League and have the #1 squad as rested as possible for this Man U game since the league is something we have an actual shot at. Not sure it would have made a difference, but ya never know.

Probably not since the team last night was so missing in terms of ideas and passion. It was pretty much the first team and the Barca loss should have pushed them to do better, not just roll over and die.

[bhlloy]

Wenger has to be done after this season if he can't deliver the title. I'm a big fan and he's still a good manager but to not be able to go on and win it from here with 2.5 of the big 4 completely out of it would just be more validation that he can't win the big one and he's not longer among the elite.

[AlexB]

I was saying earlier today that I think Wenger is encouraged to walk by Arsenal after this season regardless: if they win the league it's a glorious end to a fantastic spell; if either us or Spurs win it shows exactly what you've just said.

Regardless, Arsenal won't win the league next year under Wenger: Man City, Utd, Chelsea will all be spending mega-bucks, maybe Liverpool too, maybe Everton as well, while Spurs and Leicester might be able to use this as a platform.

Wenger just won't spend as much as the big boys so will lose out on the top talent, and doesn't seem to scout as well any more compared to Spurs or us so loses out on that side too: he even poached the wrong scout from us

[cartman]

I'm a little underwhelmed by the new US soccer crest.

[Marc Vaughan]

I'll never understand the people who rabble rouse for Wenger leaving Arsenal - he does a fantastic job there and yes he's not won the league for a long time, but he keeps them in contention and their supporters BELIEVING they should be winning the league consistently year after year ... despite not actually spending money hugely ...

Yes it'd be lovely if they did win the league etc. ... but honestly do you expect the Arsenal board to suddenly transform into spendthrifts if another manager takes charge? ... all I envision is a slow decline for the team until they're bought out by a mogul who turns them into a replica of Chelsea/Man City etc. ... if that comes in time and they don't turn into Leeds ...

PS - I'm REALLY pleased to see Leicester topping the Premiership and proving that soccer is still a game where money alone doesn't determine results

[flere-imsaho]

In the Premier League era, the following teams have won the league: Manchester United, Blackburn Rovers, Arsenal, Chelsea, Manchester City.

Also in that time frame, the following teams have finished 2nd or 3rd (if not listed above): Aston Villa, Norwich City, Nottingham Forest, Liverpool, Newcastle United, Leeds United.


In the OMG MONEY era (following Abramovich's purchase of Chelsea in 2003), the following teams have won the league: Arsenal, Manchester United, Manchester City, Chelsea.

Also in that time frame, the following teams have finished 2nd or 3rd (if not listed above): Liverpool


Of the basically 5 consistently realistic contenders (being generous to Liverpool here), 2 have mogul owners and 1 is a commercial juggernaut. The fact that Wenger has kept Arsenal highly competitive among those 3 (and done considerably better than Liverpool) is a testament to his skill. As Marc points out, unless they a) turn into a commercial juggernaut like Manchester United or b) get bought by a mogul, they're always going to be at a disadvantage to City & Chelsea.

[bhlloy]

Isn't the point that none of those teams are going to win it this year and Arsenal still look like they aren't going to able to deliver a title? It's also quite debatable whether he doesn't have the money to spend or if he chooses not to spend because he has his favorites. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that they would be points clear if he'd found a more consistent goal scorer than Giroud, as an example

Like I said I'm a huge fan of Wenger. I was at Highbury in 98 when they beat Wimbledon 5-0 and they were on another planet. I'd never seen anything like it and he was miles ahead of the curve. That being said, he should be delivering a title this year. If he fails to do it I don't see how that isn't the end of the road.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Isn't the point that none of those teams are going to win it this year and Arsenal still look like they aren't going to able to deliver a title? It's also quite debatable whether he doesn't have the money to spend or if he chooses not to spend because he has his favorites. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that they would be points clear if he'd found a more consistent goal scorer than Giroud, as an example

Like I said I'm a huge fan of Wenger. I was at Highbury in 98 when they beat Wimbledon 5-0 and they were on another planet. I'd never seen anything like it and he was miles ahead of the curve. That being said, he should be delivering a title this year. If he fails to do it I don't see how that isn't the end of the road.

Exactly. They beat Leicester twice and will still lose the title to them. That's a major problem.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

That being said, he should be delivering a title this year. If he fails to do it I don't see how that isn't the end of the road.

If you look at the two teams in pole position at present - Leicester have had a near idyllic season, very few injuries and a team which works hard and is very well organised along with a striker who has hit a rich run of form. To me this season is the equivalent of Greece when they won the European Championship - I can't see it being repeated in a hurry, but I'll be ecstatic if they pull it off.

With regards to Spurs they've been gambling somewhat that they WILL achieve this level of success for a while now, its been partially hidden by some very successful sales (Bale for instance) - but their spending is sixth highest in the league over the last five seasons. They will either make the leap up or risk the chance of becoming the new Leeds at some point if they continue their current spending pattern.

[flere-imsaho]

This is what happens when journalists have too much time on their hands: José Mourinho and Louis van Gaal could work at Manchester United together | Barney Ronay | Football | The Guardian

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

If you look at the two teams in pole position at present - Leicester have had a near idyllic season, very few injuries and a team which works hard and is very well organised along with a striker who has hit a rich run of form. To me this season is the equivalent of Greece when they won the European Championship - I can't see it being repeated in a hurry, but I'll be ecstatic if they pull it off.

When I looked at the history from 1992 to compose my post above, I was going to posit that to win teams either needed money or "lightning in a bottle" (or both) and was going to find other examples to add to Leicester.

But there aren't any, arguably since 1992, but definitely since 2003.

I mean, yes, some small sides have had great runs in the EPL, but not all the way to title contention like Leicester.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Isn't the point that none of those teams are going to win it this year and Arsenal still look like they aren't going to able to deliver a title?

In the last 10 seasons, Arsenal have finished 3rd or 4th each year. In the 8 seasons before that, it was 1st or 2nd each year.

As you point out, despite some outlier point totals (such as finishing 3rd in 07/08 with 83 points), the main difference between the two "eras" is the slotting of Chelsea & Man City above them due to money.

I did some math on the current table and, not looking specifically at their remaining matchups, Arsenal are on track to finish the season on 72 points, consistent with their performance pretty much since Wenger took charge. They may still end up third even though their usual challengers (Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City) are having off years, mainly because Tottenham & Leicester are having "lightning in a bottle" years.

So, OK.

There's certainly an argument to be made that this was Arsenal's year, given the (relative) faltering of the other Big 3. But I think there's a stronger argument to be made that Arsenal are simply unlucky in that The Faltering was combined with two breakout teams.

It is what it is, essentially. More fertile, from a discussion standpoint, is this:

It's also quite debatable whether he doesn't have the money to spend or if he chooses not to spend because he has his favorites. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that they would be points clear if he'd found a more consistent goal scorer than Giroud, as an example.

I'll admit I don't follow Arsenal all that closely, so I can't say how much money Wenger is leaving on the table, regarding players. This is probably an argument I can back, however.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I mean, yes, some small sides have had great runs in the EPL, but not all the way to title contention like Leicester.

There are next to none in 'Premiership' history but there are quite a few in the years before the formation of that, Norwich and Ipswich being the teams which I recall most vividly ...

Norwich in 86/87 had been promoted from Division 2 (the equivalent of the Championship at that time) and finished 5th in the top division after flirting with the title at around this point in the season if I remember right.

Ipswich between 79-82 came 3rd and second twice, including winning the EUFA Cup.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'll admit I don't follow Arsenal all that closely, so I can't say how much money Wenger is leaving on the table, regarding players. This is probably an argument I can back, however.

This is impossible for anyone to know really - Wenger has always spent fairly frugally and developed potential where possible, but whether thats purely by his own choice I have no idea ... I do hugely respect his performance as a manager and the fact that he sticks to his tactical principles even when in the short term they might sometimes falter.

[whomario]

For an international perspective, Leicester actually reminds me a little of Dortmunds rebirth-run with 2 championships. Somewhat similar playstyle and also roster makup IMO. The biggest suprise champion in Germany has been Kaiserslautern though (1998)

They won it straight after promotion with a somewhat aging squad.

Had a few things going for them though. They had vast experience in their roster and several big time internationals who stayed after relagation(which would not happen nowadays). They had 2 members of the runner-up Czech National Team of 1996 (Pavel Kuka and Miroslav Kadlec), Ciriaco Sforza (who also had stints with Bayern Munich and Inter Milan) a couple former or current (at the time) German NT players and a young Michael Ballack in a supporting role. Heck more than half the rotation players finished 2nd and won the cup in 1996.

Also, the godfather of surprise-championships himself as coach, Otto "Greece actually won a European Championship, i am not kidding here" Rehagel

[SirFozzie]

Just think, this could have been YOUR division 1 league in america. Eight Colored Zones on the field (with players limited to the zones they could be in), two goalmouths on either side.. The scary thing isn't that someone pitched this to the US Soccer Federation and it got a positive response. The scary thing is that this got a positive response from FIFA.

Three points for a goal? League 1 America: the soccer revolution that never was | Football | The Guardian

[law90026]

The issue with Wenger is that you get the same shit every season. A lot of talk, a little run to make people think they are for real and then the wheels falling off when the pressure hits.

With a new manager, it's possible things could go wrong. But it's also possible things go right.

Quite frankly, Wenger's repeated insistence on bringing out the 4th place trophy whenever he is attacked shows how low the standards are.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Just think, this could have been YOUR division 1 league in america. Eight Colored Zones on the field (with players limited to the zones they could be in), two goalmouths on either side.. The scary thing isn't that someone pitched this to the US Soccer Federation and it got a positive response. The scary thing is that this got a positive response from FIFA.

Three points for a goal? League 1 America: the soccer revolution that never was | Football | The Guardian

Paglia’s work began to pick up attention in the summer of 1993. Whether fans would later decide that the ProZone was a bastardization or an improvement on conventional soccer, League 1 America’s proposals did grab the attention of Fifa, who invited Paglia to their headquarters in Switzerland to discuss his vision, in September 1993. On his return, Paglia, who had been told by Fifa officials not to discuss the meeting, was greeted by calls from reporters who had been tipped off (some reports since have suggested that this was an attempt by Fifa to hurry the USSF into making decision.)

This had no chance and there was no mention of positive responses from anyone.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by law90026

Quite frankly, Wenger's repeated insistence on bringing out the 4th place trophy whenever he is attacked shows how low the standards are.

LOL

So a manager who manages to achieve a continuously high placing in one of the most competitive soccer leagues in the world with a budget a fraction of the clubs competing against him isn't good enough? ...

Who do you think would do better in his place with the same budgets available?

[chesapeake]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

LOL

So a manager who manages to achieve a continuously high placing in one of the most competitive soccer leagues in the world with a budget a fraction of the clubs competing against him isn't good enough? ...

Ultimately, it isn't enough if he cannot close the deal in a season like this one, where the stars have aligned so that teams richer that yours have tripped up. His budget for this season was certainly bigger than the $10 million he spent. I grant you, it was a well-spent $10 million. Cech has been great. But the side has obvious weaknesses that it had identified and was only able to fill one of them.

Now, with Leicester's draw yesterday and Spurs coming up this weekend, Arsenal have the opportunity to change the narrative dramatically. Wenger's coaching for his legacy.

[SirFozzie]

Does anybody want to win the Premier League? Anyone?

[kingfc22]

Seriously???

Hey Arsene, when the door opens, you're supposed to go through it. Not run into the wall that is supporting it.

[chesapeake]

Losing to the ManU U21s and then at home to a team battling relegation with your season on the line? Really?!!

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

LOL

So a manager who manages to achieve a continuously high placing in one of the most competitive soccer leagues in the world with a budget a fraction of the clubs competing against him isn't good enough? ...

Who do you think would do better in his place with the same budgets available?

In the spending table over the last five years Arsenal are fifth and have been the fourth most successful (I'm assuming) team. He's hardly pulling off a Herculean feat or winning while having to sell his best players. He's outperforming Liverpool - fine, but hardly first ballot HOF material.

Also today's result. Oops, but sadly not surprising