FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flounder

I think what Georgia has found with the Hope scholarship is that just giving kids access to college isn't enough.

Around 70 percent fail to maintain their eligibility.

The biggest impact of HOPE has been the rapid escalation of tuition around the state.

It's a popular boondoggle but it's done more harm than good afaic.

The Pitfalls of HOPE | The John William Pope Center for Higher Education Policy

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Arles

I think the best practical thing the black community can do to improve this issue is to setup as many black college scholarships as possible. If you are an African American and have made a bunch of money, that should be your number one goal when it comes to donations. The more kids go to college = the more stable black families who live in the suburbs = the less hassle by cops in that area. If the "expected" black rate in a nice area goes from 10-15% to 30-35%, there will be less and less of a reason to profile. Then, as time passes, cops will be replaced by more open minded people (including the kids of those minorities that moved in).

To achieve this, you have so many minority academic scholarships to college for major inner city areas that if you can get a good GPA, you can get one. I'm sure the right would hem and haw about how unfair that is and how their white kid has a 3.5 GPA and didn't get a scholarship but a black kid with a 3.0 GPA did, but you have to look at the bigger picture. A program like this on a grand scale could finally tip the scales to allow more opportunity for minorities and more minorities leaving the ghetto to the point to where may even some "ghetto" areas end up getting a facelift because there just aren't enough lower income people left to justify it. Now, that's not going to happen to Detroit, Chicago or St. Louis overnight, but if you are a high school kid and you know if you can just pull a 3.0-3.5 GPA - you have a great chance at a scholarship. I think suddenly college becomes a more realistic dream and some kids/families will push it more. When you are in a single parent home with a mom that works two jobs to provide food and clothes, $20K a year in college costs is a pipe dream - even with some access to student loans.

The problem is a lot of these kids have no business being in college. They are not prepared emotionally or academically to be successful in college. I think a better solution is to give scholarships so kids can go to trade school and learn a skill.

The more of those kids with skills the better opportunity they have to find work whether in their hometown or somewhere else.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Noop

To answer that question is to be prepared to hear tired and rehashed arguments. In my own personal life I have spoken against gang violence and this "hood" way of life. I have seen first hand what happens when someone tries to keep it hood.

I wish I could say the problem is as simple as tell them to stop acting like animals and maybe white society will accept them and be more sympathetic to their plights. However, a close analysis of the black situation produces questions that need answers. For example, there is a tremendous amount of illegal assault rifles in the ghettos of America and my question is this: How do these poor people get access to these assault rifles?

Another question is if cocaine or marijuana is not predominantly produced in the ghetto how do these products happen to find their way into the hands of these poor people? Last time I checked I have never seen fields of coco plants or weeds in the ghetto.

Another question I have is why do some many black children have behavioral issues. Are those issues a result of their fathers not being home or is it something genetic? Why is it that I was able to go to law school while my brother went to jail?

I am rambling but the point is there is no simple question. My sincere hope is to one day be able to give to my community the opportunity to get an education by offering to pay kids to go to trade school.

I digress.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

I posted as a way to illustrate yet again that there's plenty of discussion about violence in black neighborhoods, but the media doesn't cover it and some people don't want to acknowledge it.

[Buccaneer]

I am and have been a strong advocate of vocational training, including apprenticeship and internship.

Expanding on what mr. Noop alluded to, I think the notion of mentorship is and will be especially critical, particularly to millennials. It has to be the saying you have to have a father but even a father figure can work wonders.

Another thought was something that struck me from ken burns Baseball. At one time, the Negro League was the largest African American business in the country (perhaps along with funeral services). They had to do it because of segregation but today, black businesses can take on the role of mentoring and uplifting a community as they had in the past. Maybe it won't be a profit center but they can pay long term dividends.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I am and have been a strong advocate of vocational training, including apprenticeship and internship.

Expanding on what mr. Noop alluded to, I think the notion of mentorship is and will be especially critical, particularly to millennials. It has to be the saying you have to have a father but even a father figure can work wonders.

Another thought was something that struck me from ken burns Baseball. At one time, the Negro League was the largest African American business in the country (perhaps along with funeral services). They had to do it because of segregation but today, black businesses can take on the role of mentoring and uplifting a community as they had in the past. Maybe it won't be a profit center but they can pay long term dividends.

Sometimes I wish I never went to law school and decided to learn to fix A/Cs or something. I think by giving someone a skill it allows them to earn a living.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Arles

I think the best practical thing the black community can do to improve this issue is to setup as many black college scholarships as possible. If you are an African American and have made a bunch of money, that should be your number one goal when it comes to donations. The more kids go to college = the more stable black families who live in the suburbs = the less hassle by cops in that area. If the "expected" black rate in a nice area goes from 10-15% to 30-35%, there will be less and less of a reason to profile. Then, as time passes, cops will be replaced by more open minded people (including the kids of those minorities that moved in).

To achieve this, you have so many minority academic scholarships to college for major inner city areas that if you can get a good GPA, you can get one. I'm sure the right would hem and haw about how unfair that is and how their white kid has a 3.5 GPA and didn't get a scholarship but a black kid with a 3.0 GPA did, but you have to look at the bigger picture. A program like this on a grand scale could finally tip the scales to allow more opportunity for minorities and more minorities leaving the ghetto to the point to where may even some "ghetto" areas end up getting a facelift because there just aren't enough lower income people left to justify it. Now, that's not going to happen to Detroit, Chicago or St. Louis overnight, but if you are a high school kid and you know if you can just pull a 3.0-3.5 GPA - you have a great chance at a scholarship. I think suddenly college becomes a more realistic dream and some kids/families will push it more. When you are in a single parent home with a mom that works two jobs to provide food and clothes, $20K a year in college costs is a pipe dream - even with some access to student loans.

I think there is a bigger deeper issue at play, that I have witnessed. I'm not sure the correct "term" for it, but there is cultural pressure in some communities NOT to succeed. That y going to college you are being a sell out, not "real" or some other ridiculous terminology. The sad truth is there is a segment of the black community (notice I said segment, not all) that if the change you suggest above was implemented instead of striving for a 3.0 would actually make sure they didnt do good enough to qualify for it.

We have to eliminate the "too cool for school" mentality. We have to celebrate the successes of a black man who succeeds through "white" channels and not tear him down, call him an 'uncle tom', a sell out a traitor etc.

Of course by "we" I really mean the minority community has to encourage it to other young minorities.

I am struck by the relative rapid assimilation of Asian Americans into more widespread "Corporate America" culture, than is often present in the African American community. Go back and look at WW2 and we will find some pretty horific treatment of Asian Americans, in some aspects worse than African Americans faced. That was some 90 years after the Civil War.

Today, in my lines of business, it is much more common for me to encounter a minority owned business owned by an Asian American than by an African American. I believe a large reason for that is that the Asian American coomunity embraced the education system and rewarded, encouraged and demanded excellence there, by and large, of their children.

Now the hows and why of how to do that?
Thats beyond my level.

Originally Posted by Noop

The problem is a lot of these kids have no business being in college. They are not prepared emotionally or academically to be successful in college. I think a better solution is to give scholarships so kids can go to trade school and learn a skill.

The more of those kids with skills the better opportunity they have to find work whether in their hometown or somewhere else.

And this is a fantastic point. true for all races. I have a neighbor who while a good guy simply was never college material. His parents were old south money and forced im to go to college. He assisted the suicide of his college career by rocking a .75 GPA for his freshman year. Shamed the family. Blah Blah Blah. Went to tech school learned HVAC, got certified worked for a guy for a few years and slowly went out on his own. He has done very well for himself and now is back welcomed into the family. More importantly he owns is hown business, employs a dozen people or so. Want to make a huge difference in "rougher communities"? Have a few of the neighborhood alums start their own business, employ the next generation. Show them another way. Show them a way to success that doesnt involve living outside the law.

Anyone with a skilled trade will never be out of work. Again it coms from my background and what I do, but I know a doen or more electricians, plumbers, HVAC guys, painters etc. That really arent that far above the law themselves. Cant hold a full tiem job becuase they cant pass a drug test consistently etc. But these people keep a middle class lifestyle up because they ahve a skill that can always be used. Everyone from the bottom to the elite have toilets that need repair, wiring that needs repair, a/c units that need repair, etc. And if you have that skill set, that trade, you are never unemployable.

I tell my son this all the time. I could lose everything I have tomorrow, ut I still have my electrical tools and my license. I guarantee you that if I can get a ride to Home Depot or Lowe's I can stand around and find work in an hour.

A lot of talk is made about teaching kids to be Drs and Lawyers, engineers and accountants. Many lower income kids dont know any of those people. they dont know how to relate. But they know a mechanic. They know a plumber. At a bare minimum they can see WHY you need A/C people, why you need a mechanic...many (myself included until my mid 20s) couldnt see why anyone needed a lawyer or an accountant.

Anyway gotta go back to work...but great great point and post by Noop.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Noop

The problem is a lot of these kids have no business being in college. They are not prepared emotionally or academically to be successful in college. I think a better solution is to give scholarships so kids can go to trade school and learn a skill.

The more of those kids with skills the better opportunity they have to find work whether in their hometown or somewhere else.

I agree with trade schools, community colleges and 4-year universities. I mean, the kid still has to get accepted. it's not like I'm advocating for a kid with 900 SAT scores and a 2.0 GPA get a full ride to Harvard. I just think that any kid in an inner city who applies himself and gets good enough grades and shows interest in a trade school/cc/university should have an easier path to make that happen. I still think the standards of acceptance should be the same, but there are many kids who could excel in post-HS learning but don't really have/know the path to make that happen.

[JPhillips]

Mistrust of academic achievement isn't limited to blacks. My wife has been told by her aunts that she's, "gettin above her raisin" by getting a graduate degree.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Around 70 percent fail to maintain their eligibility.

The biggest impact of HOPE has been the rapid escalation of tuition around the state.

It's a popular boondoggle but it's done more harm than good afaic.

The Pitfalls of HOPE | The John William Pope Center for Higher Education Policy

I agree. If you look at who spends the most money on lottery tickets, the lottery/Hope scholarship is a giant transfer of wealth from the poor to the upper and middle classes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flounder

I agree. If you look at who spends the most money on lottery tickets, the lottery/Hope scholarship is a giant transfer of wealth from the poor to the upper and middle classes.

The lottery bothers me not one whit.

But the Hope has turned out to be nothing more than a cash cow for the university system, packing classrooms with "students" who have little to no business being on a college campus.

edit to add: It's part of a larger problem of course, the whole "you simply must go to college" fallacy.

[Buccaneer]

I have witnessed the same thing as JPhillips when I lived and worked in the South. Advanced high school coursework were for those too "hifalutin", let alone college. I don't know if it's going to get better when not only is there a pervasive too cool for school attitude but falling even further behind with the influx of Asians and Hispanics.

[Blackadar]

The Investigators: Dashcam video clears NJ man; Cops now indicted | 7online.com

This guy got lucky in that there was a 2nd tape. If not, he goes to jail for at least 10 years because of hyper-aggressive, wanna-be-Rambo cops. Unfortunately, all too often there's only one tape that gets "edited" or ends up vanishing.

[Blackadar]

Damn did I miss Jon Stewart.

August 26, 2014 - David Rose - The Daily Show - Full Episode | Comedy Central

Who was the news channel that had friggin' Mark Fuhrman talking about race? What, the Grand Wizard of the KKK wasn't available?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

The Investigators: Dashcam video clears NJ man; Cops now indicted | 7online.com

This guy got lucky in that there was a 2nd tape. If not, he goes to jail for at least 10 years because of hyper-aggressive, wanna-be-Rambo cops. Unfortunately, all too often there's only one tape that gets "edited" or ends up vanishing.

"Stop trying to resist arrest. Stop trying to take my gun."

"Why are you trying to take my fucking gun? GET OFF MY GUN."

It's like...it's like the cops just throw this shit out as standard boilerplate language to get a free pass to basically do whatever the hell they want. "Well, he was resisting or going for a gun, so all bets are off and we can beat the shit out of and/or shoot."

And of course, internal affairs initially found no wrongdoing.

Absolute fuckery. And you wonder why blacks distrust cops.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

"Stop trying to resist arrest. Stop trying to take my gun."

"Why are you trying to take my fucking gun? GET OFF MY GUN."

It's like...it's like the cops just throw this shit out as standard boilerplate language to get a free pass to basically do whatever the hell they want. "Well, he was resisting or going for a gun, so all bets are off and we can beat the shit out of and/or shoot."

And of course, internal affairs initially found no wrongdoing.

Absolute fuckery. And you wonder why blacks distrust cops.

Well, I don't wonder but I'm assuming that was a plural "you" and not a singular. It reminds me of this and the cops in this case are Jimbo and Ned.

[cuervo72]

Yeah, royal "you" there.

[Subby]

Scary to think what would happen to that poor guy if there weren't cameras.

All cops should be wearing cameras and all cars should be equipped with cameras. End of story.

[Blackadar]

And apparently this happened - a K9 unit officer took his dog (or let his dog) pee on the Michael Brown memorial the day after the shooting.

Ferguson: Police dog urinated on Michael Brown memorial.

---

Subby has it right. "Scary" is the right word.

Scary is the reality. It's fear that virtually every person of color feels when dealing with police at any level, in any city, no matter who you are or what you do. It doesn't matter if you're a famous athlete or PhD in Rocket Science or a working stiff trying to go home. You might be telling your children all of the rules they have to know and follow when dealing with Police; but you know on the inside that given the wrong cops, NONE OF IT WILL MATTER. It won't matter how well you comply or how little you resist. Being black in America means that something like this can happen to you and no one will believe you weren't at fault. Your life can be just taken from you, either literally or figuratively and there is nothing you can do to stop it. The lives of your children, already treated with short worth, can be ripped from them and there is nothing you can do to prevent it.

You might get lucky if there is a dashcam that may or may not be admitted in as evidence. But you know that eyewitnesses won't matter, especially if they're black too. Their word doesn't count for shit. If something goes down you just pray to GOD that you escape that sword of Damocles one more time or that some kind-hearted soul around you is recording the thing on video. You get to carry this around with you all day, every single time you deal with the police. Grow up with that as you try to live a normal life. Try to not react when people tell you that you're just playing the race card, or that you shouldn't hate or despair, or that Cops need protection too, or that the shooting (they won't use the term murder) was bad but the looting is just as bad or worse because it wasn't somehow justified like gunning down an unarmed man.

I can't imagine what it might have been before there were cameras.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

And apparently this happened - a K9 unit officer took his dog (or let his dog) pee on the Michael Brown memorial the day after the shooting.

Ferguson: Police dog urinated on Michael Brown memorial.

---

Subby has it right. "Scary" is the right word.

Scary is the reality. It's fear that virtually every person of color feels when dealing with police at any level, in any city, no matter who you are or what you do. It doesn't matter if you're a famous athlete or PhD in Rocket Science or a working stiff trying to go home. You might be telling your children all of the rules they have to know and follow when dealing with Police; but you know on the inside that given the wrong cops, NONE OF IT WILL MATTER. It won't matter how well you comply or how little you resist. Being black in America means that something like this can happen to you and no one will believe you weren't at fault. Your life can be just taken from you, either literally or figuratively and there is nothing you can do to stop it. The lives of your children, already treated with short worth, can be ripped from them and there is nothing you can do to prevent it.

You might get lucky if there is a dashcam that may or may not be admitted in as evidence. But you know that eyewitnesses won't matter, especially if they're black too. Their word doesn't count for shit. If something goes down you just pray to GOD that you escape that sword of Damocles one more time or that some kind-hearted soul around you is recording the thing on video. You get to carry this around with you all day, every single time you deal with the police. Grow up with that as you try to live a normal life. Try to not react when people tell you that you're just playing the race card, or that you shouldn't hate or despair, or that Cops need protection too, or that the shooting (they won't use the term murder) was bad but the looting is just as bad or worse because it wasn't somehow justified like gunning down an unarmed man.

I can't imagine what it might have been before there were cameras.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

The Investigators: Dashcam video clears NJ man; Cops now indicted | 7online.com

This guy got lucky in that there was a 2nd tape. If not, he goes to jail for at least 10 years because of hyper-aggressive, wanna-be-Rambo cops. Unfortunately, all too often there's only one tape that gets "edited" or ends up vanishing.

Every cop should have a dash cam and body cam. It's crazy thqt they are better outfitted than the Marines but can't afford a $400 camera.

[DaddyTorgo]

This just out:

MILFORD Conn. (Reuters) - A U.S. federal appeals court has ruled that Connecticut police cannot claim immunity to quash lawsuits seeking millions of dollars in damages from a botched 2008 raid by a SWAT team that severely injured a homeowner and killed his friend.

U.S. court will not block lawsuits over Connecticut SWAT raid - Yahoo News

[Buccaneer]

My city (of about 500,000) will require police officers to wear cameras starting in October.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Not really the least bit surprising to see an appeals court screw up another ruling. That's kinda par for the course for federal appeals lately.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not really the least bit surprising to see an appeals court screw up another ruling. That's kinda par for the course for federal appeals lately.

Why is it a bad decision?

[Izulde]

The idea of putting more people in four year universities sounds good in theory, but all it does is render an undergraduate degree even less valuable than it already is (as well as soak up resources). For years now, I've had the strong conviction that we need to emphasize technical education and trade schools much more strongly, rather than push people along this fallacious path of the mythical bachelors, and even graduate degree leading to upward social and financial mobility (Witness the ABA specifically telling students not to go to law school, certain departments telling potential PhD students to strongly consider other career paths, more and more people commenting on the comparative worthlessness of the MBA, etc.)

And I think that's starting to happen. Anecdotal evidence among some of my circles sees a lot of people with bachelors (and in my case masters) degrees going back to school for a vocational-oriented degree. Most of them are at community colleges; a few are at in-state four years. A lot of cases it's nursing or some other medical/healthcare field. Finance-related seems to be the second most popular. And at least for the healthcare types, it's netted people who really didn't have the right set of characteristics to make it a four year college comparatively well-paying jobs with considerable job security.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I am and have been a strong advocate of vocational training, including apprenticeship and internship.

I am also - even with subjects commonly taught at University I think a simple 'practical' course is often more helpful than a degree.

It might surprise a few of you to know that I have no degree at all, I have been to university but after starting on a Honors degree in Maths/Business transferred onto a more vocational Software Engineering course which provided me with enough of a grounding to get a career as a developer.

*Higher National Diploma (HND) - its a 2 year course at English universities, we always used to say it stood for "Have No Degree"

[miked]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Why is it a bad decision?

Because Jon feels that police are well within their rights to throw grenades and shoot unarmed people over a line of coke as reported by a credible stripper. Duh, it's redneck justice.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Why is it a bad decision?

A good faith (as far as I can tell that wasn't being questioned) decision being protected is essential for the operation of law enforcement.

That a court would criticize entering in this manner under those circumstances is an abomination, and speaks much about the low amount of wisdom or even character present on federal benches today.

I'll pass over the part about how much good a few flashbangs into some chambers might do this country. Wouldn't want pleasant hyperbole being misconstrued as either a threat nor advocacy.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Really sad situation here. I've become friends with many of the Ghost Hunters crew members since their visit to the winery. Several of them knew this guy from previous shows. Some of them had previously worked the Cops show and are obviously shook up by the incident.

‘Cops’ Crew Member Bryce Dion Dies After Being Shot During Robbery Standoff | Deadline

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

A good faith (as far as I can tell that wasn't being questioned) decision being protected is essential for the operation of law enforcement.

That a court would criticize entering in this manner under those circumstances is an abomination, and speaks much about the low amount of wisdom or even character present on federal benches today.

I'll pass over the part about how much good a few flashbangs into some chambers might do this country. Wouldn't want pleasant hyperbole being misconstrued as either a threat nor advocacy.

Maybe you should read the damn article before commenting or is that too much to ask? At least two officers questioned the SWAT decision before it happened. Also, qualified immunity isn't a blank check like you seem to think it is. It doesn't protect people from making bad decisions that violate people's rights that any reasonable person would have known. Good faith has nothing to do about it and public officials need to be held accountable for their actions.

It's incredible how variable your logic is. You want to hold politicians accountable for every little thing, but cops and the military get carte blanche in your book to go kill everyone they want without repercussions. You want to do good for this country? Leave it. You're a relic of a bigoted, entitled and fearful class of people mostly long gone and best forgotten.

[flounder]

It's not like police departments haven't manufactured evidence to support a no-knock warrant either.

A no-knock SWAT raid greatly increases the danger not only to the occupants of the house, but also to the police officers on the raid. I don't think it's too much to ask that it be considered the option of last resort. The guys in this house weren't armed or violent. They could have been arrested somewhere else and the search warrant executed at no risk.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That a court would criticize entering in this manner under those circumstances is an abomination, and speaks much about the low amount of wisdom or even character present on federal benches today.

I think it speaks to the court's opinion regarding the low amount of wisdom or even character of some law enforcement agencies today.

(ETA: Also, isn't this the point of the three-headed, checks-and-balances system? Law enforcement is not above reproach, and it is not above the law. If they appear to be getting a little out of hand, they should be reined in.)

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I am also - even with subjects commonly taught at University I think a simple 'practical' course is often more helpful than a degree.

It might surprise a few of you to know that I have no degree at all, I have been to university but after starting on a Honors degree in Maths/Business transferred onto a more vocational Software Engineering course which provided me with enough of a grounding to get a career as a developer.

*Higher National Diploma (HND) - its a 2 year course at English universities, we always used to say it stood for "Have No Degree"

Having said that, I have become very dismayed with my one experience with vocational (for-profit) schools. My stepson went to IntelliTec with no job prospects and no recruiting whatsoever - after paying them $25k. I think I fell for their placement pitch which was vastly overstated.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Law enforcement is not above reproach, and it is not above the law.

As an aside, who reigns in judges?

I mean, federal judges don't go before the voters so we're out of the loop. Congress can't even control itself. Executive is worse than useless at times.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by flounder

The guys in this house weren't armed or violent.

With drug suspects that's a hell of an assumption to make afaic.

[Groundhog]

I was watching that "The First 48" crime show, and while coming after a suspected robbery/homicide a no-knock SWAT raid busted down the door of the wrong house - the suspect and his family had been evicted a month prior, and an entirely different family was living there. A film crew was following that SWAT team, can only imagine what might have happened otherwise.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As an aside, who reigns in judges?

I mean, federal judges don't go before the voters so we're out of the loop. Congress can't even control itself. Executive is worse than useless at times.

Yeah, you do have some points here. Though we're probably better off with these all fighting each other than ganging up on us.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Having said that, I have become very dismayed with my one experience with vocational (for-profit) schools. My stepson went to IntelliTec with no job prospects and no recruiting whatsoever - after paying them $25k. I think I fell for their placement pitch which was vastly overstated.

This. The for-profit tech colleges are often just a scam to get tuition/student loan money. Retention, graduation and employment numbers for a lot of these schools are terrible.

[DaddyTorgo]

For those that continue to insist that we don't have an issue in this country




http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/news/20...g-public-space

[Dutch]

What are my rights if the police approach me? - WORLD Law Direct

What are my rights if the police approach me and ask me questions?

Suppose you or someone you are with calls the police, or you are outside your home or in a public place when the police arrive and begin to ask questions.

Law enforcement officers have a duty to protect the community they serve, its citizens and their property. The law gives police certain powers to help them perform that duty.

They have the power to approach persons and ask them questions. Simply because you are approached and questioned by the police does not mean that you are suspected of having committed a crime. All citizens are encouraged to cooperate with the police to see that those who break the law are brought to justice, and the police rely on law-abiding citizens to do so. But you are not required to incriminate yourself.

YOU MAY REFUSE TO ANSWER ANY QUESTION IF THE ANSWER WOULD TEND TO INCRIMINATE YOU.

If the police "stop" me and ask questions?

Suppose you are walking down a street when a police officer confronts you and announces: "Stop, I need to ask you some questions." A person is "stopped" when an officer uses enough force, or a show of his authority as a police officer, to make a reasonable person feel they are not free to leave. In this example, the officer called out for you to stop, and may have used his authority to make you do so. If he pulled out his weapon or used a threatening tone of voice, it would be even more clear that a stop has taken place. Because he is interfering with your liberty to move about, the officer should first have a reasonable suspicion that you have been involved in a crime. This would be a suspicion that would need to be supported later (if the matter should wind up in a court by the officer's reference to specific facts that gave him such suspicion.

The police are not required to tell you that you are a suspect or that they intend to arrest you, but if they have used force or a show of authority to keep you from leaving, it is likely they consider you a suspect. They may consider you a suspect even if you were the person who called the police. If they read you or tell you your Miranda rights, they suspect that you have committed a crime.

Just as when an officer merely approaches and questions you, if you are stopped, you have the right to refuse to answer any questions if the answer would tend to incriminate you.

Further, anything you say can be used as evidence against you. Sometimes people think that what they are saying won't incriminate them.

Even if you believe the officer has no grounds to stop and question you, do not argue with or resist the police. Arguing or resisting the police will not help you; it may make it more likely that the police will arrest you and bring criminal charges against you; and it may make it harder for you to get out of jail on bail if you are charged. Once officers no longer have grounds to detain you, they should tell you that you are free to go before asking if they can search you or your car.

[CU Tiger]

Thats a disgusting video.
And why I further support "never talk to police"...and before someone chimes in and says "Duder could have handled it better and avoided the outcome" sure he could have. Thats not the point. He should not have had to.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This. The for-profit tech colleges are often just a scam to get tuition/student loan money. Retention, graduation and employment numbers for a lot of these schools are terrible.

Yep.

[flounder]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

With drug suspects that's a hell of an assumption to make afaic.

It's not an assumption. It says in the article that no guns were found.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Thats a disgusting video.
And why I further support "never talk to police"...and before someone chimes in and says "Duder could have handled it better and avoided the outcome" sure he could have. Thats not the point. He should not have had to.

It's interesting seeing the contrasting responses from Dutch and you, who most people would lump in on the same side of the political spectrum.

I fall on your side on this one.

Of course the problem is that white people can generally (some exceptions such as your story notwithstanding) get away with not talking to the police and avoid having excessive force used on them. It seems a lot more likely (and no I don't have statistics to back this up - I am at work after all) that when minorities (especially blacks) get into these situations the use of force escalates quickly & far out of proportion to what's going on.

Here you don't even have a guy breaking the law - he's just sitting on a bench in what looks like an indoor mall (?). Pretty fucking sickening.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

It's interesting seeing the contrasting responses from Dutch and you, who most people would lump in on the same side of the political spectrum.

I fall on your side on this one.

Of course the problem is that white people can generally (some exceptions such as your story notwithstanding) get away with not talking to the police and avoid having excessive force used on them. It seems a lot more likely (and no I don't have statistics to back this up - I am at work after all) that when minorities (especially blacks) get into these situations the use of force escalates quickly & far out of proportion to what's going on.

Here you don't even have a guy breaking the law - he's just sitting on a bench in what looks like an indoor mall (?). Pretty fucking sickening.

DT, all I did was copy and paste what some lawyers posted on their web-site on how to handle police approaching you.

The dude in the video absolutely could've handled it differently and better. If he was truly just there to pick up his kids, he was 100% grade A moron for handling it the way he did. Remember, ignorance of the law isn't a defense. I'm sure there have been specific cases that have covered these scenarios in the court of law and the law has won this exact scenario. A cop has a right to question a suspect on the grounds of public safety. And that includes asking the suspects name.

A couple of questions for you DT.

1. Why do you suspect he had a camera on himself recording at this specific time?
2. What was he doing that was suspicious enough for the cops to be called over?

Those are just some key missing facts that would go a long way to clarifying this situation.

Now for you, just out of curiosity, if you were the cop, how would you have handled it differently?

[JediKooter]

That video is a prime example of what black people have to go through here in america on a daily basis. Everything he said was rational and not anywhere close to being out of place. Ironic that every single cop I saw in that video was old and white.

And here's...the rest of the story:

"The police report says the man was arrested on suspicion of disorderly conduct and obstructing the legal process. Here's the St. Paul PD's official version of events:
Squad 524, M. Johnson/ 526, B. Schmidt were called to the First National Bank Building (332 Minnesota) on a report of uncooperative male refusing to leave. Officers later made contact with this male... who refused to cooperate and would not give his name. He was later arrested for Trespassing, Disorderly Conduct, and Obstructing Legal Process (Citation #620900211109).

The man was charged with trespassing, disorderly conduct, and obstructing the legal process, but those charges were later dropped."

Oh noes!!! A black man is hanging out by a bank, he must be up to something. Welcome to america!!

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Dutch

DT, all I did was copy and paste what some lawyers posted on their web-site on how to handle police approaching you.

The dude in the video absolutely could've handled it differently and better. If he was truly just there to pick up his kids, he was 100% grade A moron for handling it the way he did. Remember, ignorance of the law isn't a defense. I'm sure there have been specific cases that have covered these scenarios in the court of law and the law has won this exact scenario. A cop has a right to question a suspect on the grounds of public safety. And that includes asking the suspects name.

A couple of questions for you DT.

1. Why do you suspect he had a camera on himself recording at this specific time?
2. What was he doing that was suspicious enough for the cops to be called over?

Those are just some key missing facts that would go a long way to clarifying this situation.

Now for you, just out of curiosity, if you were the cop, how would you have handled it differently?

1. I suspect he only started recording when the cop came up to him - if you watch it you see that it starts sort of in the middle.
2. According to the story in the paper he was just sitting on the bench and the person inside the store/bank/whatever it was (I don't remember) didn't like that/felt uncomfortable.

If I'm the cop - I wouldn't handcuff the guy and tase him. I'd approach him calmly, let him know that the person inside had called, find out what he was doing there, and then go inside and tell the person inside there's nothing to worry about, that he's just waiting for his kids.

Absolute most paranoid-case scenario I'd loiter around for the 10 minutes or whatever it was until he said he was picking up his kids at school.

At no point does that require (a) asking him his name (although I can see "hey, what's your first name" so you have a way of conversing with him, and certainly not (b) getting into a physical confrontation.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

That video is a prime example of what black people have to go through here in america on a daily basis. Everything he said was rational and not anywhere close to being out of place. Ironic that every single cop I saw in that video was old and white.

And here's...the rest of the story:

"The police report says the man was arrested on suspicion of disorderly conduct and obstructing the legal process. Here's the St. Paul PD's official version of events:
Squad 524, M. Johnson/ 526, B. Schmidt were called to the First National Bank Building (332 Minnesota) on a report of uncooperative male refusing to leave. Officers later made contact with this male... who refused to cooperate and would not give his name. He was later arrested for Trespassing, Disorderly Conduct, and Obstructing Legal Process (Citation #620900211109).

The man was charged with trespassing, disorderly conduct, and obstructing the legal process, but those charges were later dropped."

Oh noes!!! A black man is hanging out by a bank, he must be up to something. Welcome to america!!

Thing is - he wasn't even in the bank according to the story in the paper - he was sitting on the bench outside in the public space (it looks like the hallway inside an indoor mall type thing?) in the middle of the day, with plenty of other people around.

As he points out - it's public property, there's no trespassing.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Thing is - he wasn't even in the bank according to the story in the paper - he was sitting on the bench outside in the public space (it looks like the hallway inside an indoor mall type thing?) in the middle of the day, with plenty of other people around.

As he points out - it's public property, there's no trespassing.

Yes, exactly, public property on a bench. From google street viewing it, it's a big building that has a bunch of offices in it, including the school his kids are in. Probably sitting in the main lobby on said bench. But, being black and hanging out near a bank (where the bank could be several blocks away) is frowned upon in this country though.

[Dutch]

He should have cooperated with the bank security guard's first and then at the very least, the cops. Instead, he was a douche. There is no reason not to say your name to the cop who is arriving to resolve a confrontation between a bank security guard and a loitering citizen.

If I am waiting for my kids and a asshole security guard says, "No loitering" then I fucking move. Why? Not because I need t fight for my rights right there, but because I have a greater responsibility to my children. This moron obviously doesn't get that.

And when the cops come to resolve the bank complaint, which is a pretty serious deal sometimes, he is a douche to them too. Totally forgetting that he's got kids to pick up, he's turned into some moronic constitutional vigiliante. Man, fuck that dude, with all the bad shit that happens in America, and forcing bank guards and cops to deal with all that shit....he's going to target them for a confrontation about his civil liberty to loiter where he wants and whether to say his name or not? And put his children at risk to witness that?

To be clear, it's my impression, that his punishment wasn't caused by being black, it was caused by being an idiot.