COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)

[Edward64]

Woo hoo. We got our 2 test kits today.

Hopefully they'll stay unused in the medicine drawer.

[RainMaker]

Got my tests a couple weeks ago. Came in handy. My Dad mentioned he had a mild cold before our family went over for the Super Bowl. I got there early and tested him. Positive test! Got the hell out of there.

He's doing pretty well. Describes it as a cold and didn't even consider it could be Covid due to how mild it was. But without the test, about 5 people would have probably spent 4-5 hours in a room with him watching football.

[Edward64]

Article with some nice stats and saying we need to do more for 65+.

(Atlantic article link messing up)

It is common knowledge that COVID risk goes up with age, but how steeply it rises is still astounding to see after two years of living and dying with this coronavirus. Compared with someone in their 20s, a person over 65 years old is not slightly more likely to die of COVID but at least 65 times more likely to die of COVID. Over age 75, they become 140 times more likely to die. Over age 85, they are 340 times more likely to die.
:
This is why, even though America’s vaccination and booster rates look better in the older groups compared with the young, they are still too low. As a result, deaths in the United States are still too high. The unvaccinated elderly have been dying at incredibly high rates, but even the vaccinated and unboosted elderly are still dying of COVID at four times the rate of unvaccinated adults under 49. A booster cuts that risk dramatically.
:
In 2022 so far, three-quarters of COVID deaths in America have been in people 65 and older, 93 percent in people 50 and older.

Proposing getting healthcare providers & insurers to do more.

Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) ... could add more direct incentives, experts say. Most Americans on Medicare are on traditional Medicare, which is a fee-for-service program that pays the bills but does not closely manage a patient’s care. CMS does have levers to influence health-care providers, though. It could, for instance, incentivize them by making the COVID vaccination and booster rates among patients a “quality measure” that helps determine how much providers are reimbursed.

I'm not sure I get why nursing homes vaccination rates are not closer to 100%. Possibly risk of lawsuits?

Nursing homes are another potential focus of COVID vaccination. Residents are at particularly high risk for COVID, not just because of age and underlying health conditions but because they live in close quarters. Yet vaccination rates in nursing homes are not any better than in the overall elderly population: 87 percent of residents are fully vaccinated, and only 69 percent are boosted.

Bottom-line to me. At this stage with less deadlier omicron and most everyone that wants to get vaccinated & boosted are ... if there are 65+ who voluntarily choose not to get vaccinated & boosted, then I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. There will be some exceptions such as pre-existing conditions etc. and nursing home patients may not be able to make their own decisions though.

[Edward64]

Don't remember us discussing it here but is another option for us to push the more traditional J&J vaccine?

There's many unvaccinated that say mRNA is new and cautious about long term effects. So maybe, at this current day with less deadlier omicron and more total population vaccinated, create a campaign to say "okay, don't like mRNA, take J&J. Not as effective but better than nothing".

J&J booster 85% effective against Omicron hospitalisation, South Africa says | Reuters

A Johnson and Johnson COVID-19 vaccine booster shot is 85% effective in protecting against being hospitalised by the Omicron variant for 1-2 months after it is received, the head of South Africa's Medical Research Council (SAMRC) said on Friday.

Glenda Gray presented the findings of a SAMRC study at a South African health ministry briefing on the COVID-19 fourth wave, which has been driven by the new variant.

"We saw an 85% vaccine effectiveness and we saw that this kind of vaccine effectiveness is maintained for up to two months," she said. "We are very happy to report very high levels of vaccine effectiveness against Omicron."

[RainMaker]

The people who are against mRNA are just anti-vax. They aren't taking the J&J either.

Does anyone know how long you have to quarantine for after a positive test once you feel better?

[21C]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The people who are against mRNA are just anti-vax. They aren't taking the J&J either.

Yeah, that is the takeaway after talking to my non-vaxed brother. He was against the mRNA vaccines "for ethical reasons" but was "in favor" of the non-mRNA Novavax vaccine that hadn't been approved for use in Australia until just recently. When I told him that he could now get vaccinated since it was available here, he sidestepped the issue and went off on another tangent.

He isn't a strident anti-vaxxer per se but he sprouts a lot of sh!t that he gets from various sources. The most surprising part is that he has a doctorate in pharmacology but still subscribes to some of the lesser held views out there.

[Edward64]

Didn't know about this. Going to try get one setup for me.

Access Denied

Whether they realize it or not, about 200 million people in the United States now likely have access to a Covid-19 digital vaccine card.

The digital pass known as the SMART Health Card is voluntary and minimal by design to protect personal information. It has a person’s name, date of birth and the dates and brands of vaccination doses, all contained within a type of scannable bar code known as a QR code.

And after a relatively quiet start, it has built momentum in recent months as more states and companies have signed on, making it something of a de facto national digital vaccine card.

I guess Biden is not endorsing it is because he's worried about the political backlash. But he won't get the anti-vax vote anyway so why not?

It’s not clear if the Biden administration will ever endorse the project. The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention did not respond to requests for comment.

But people involved in the project said it may have gone more smoothly if President Joe Biden had agreed to coordinate it.

I did not know this. It can't be a technology limitation, easy enough to consolidate individual state's database. Maybe not real time but batch it up every night. I don't understand why there is not a national database.

One barrier to creating a truly national digital vaccine card is that there’s no federal database of vaccination records. Each state maintains its own registry of vaccination records, so either the states or the health care providers need to be the ones to issue verified copies or credentials.

EDIT: well crap. It doesn't seem that Publix or State of GA use the SMART Health Card. I can understand GA but disappointed in Publix.

[molson]

At some point last month the world passed the 10 billion vaccine shots threshold.

[JPhillips]

I fucking love my Excelsior pass in NY. It's so easy to have my vaccine info on my phone and available any time I need it.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I fucking love my Excelsior pass in NY. It's so easy to have my vaccine info on my phone and available any time I need it.

I've never once used my vaccine card. I've taken it out of my wallet twice, once for #2 and once for the booster.

[JPhillips]

There are a lot of times I have had to use my pass when I'm in NYC.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

I've never once used my vaccine card. I've taken it out of my wallet twice, once for #2 and once for the booster.

This is Texas - I can't think of a single thing that I have used my card for.

SI

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

If you take out the crazies who want all school vaccines gone for a moment...

We're talking about a vaccine that:
- Is still very, very new in comparison to current required school vaccines .(I'm actually curious as I write this, what's the most "recently" developed vaccine that's the norm for schools? Need to dig.)
- Was understandably pushed through at breakneck speeds, so long term effects, particularly in children, are unknown.
- Was just recently even approved for children at all.
- Combats a virus that children overwhelmingly have mild symptoms from.
- Seems to have an ever-increasing number of boosters needed.

Yeah. I entirely get why there's gonna be major pushback against any attempt to require it in schools next fall.

"The crazies" (by your definition) is not an insignificant percentage of the American public.

Pretty striking: Support for mandatory vaccines in K-12 schools — not specifically on covid-19, just in general — is underwater by 9 points. 37% in favor and 46% opposed pic.twitter.com/2CE8DHktLo

— G. Elliott Morris (@gelliottmorris) February 16, 2022

[Edward64]

Here's another variant on the watch list ...

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/17/healt...ity/index.html

The BA.2 virus -- a subvariant of the Omicron coronavirus variant -- isn't just spreading faster than its distant cousin, it may also cause more severe disease and appears capable of thwarting some of the key weapons we have against Covid-19, new research suggests.

New lab experiments from Japan show that BA.2 may have features that make it as capable of causing serious illness as older variants of Covid-19, including Delta.

And like Omicron, it appears to largely escape the immunity created by vaccines. A booster shot restores protection, making illness after infection about 74% less likely.

BA.2 is also resistant to some treatments, including sotrovimab, the monoclonal antibody that's currently being used against Omicron.

It's here now.

BA.2 is about 30% to 50% more contagious than Omicron. It has been detected in 74 countries and 47 US states.

The US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that about 4% of Americans with Covid-19 now have infections caused by BA.2, but many other parts of the world have more experience with this variant. It has become dominant in at least 10 other countries: Bangladesh, Brunei, China, Denmark, Guam, India, Montenegro, Nepal, Pakistan and the Philippines, according to World Health Organization's weekly epidemiological report.

But there is some good news ...

But there was a bright spot: Antibodies in the blood of people who'd recently had Omicron also seemed to have some protection against BA.2, especially if they'd also been vaccinated.

And that raises an important point, Fuller says. Even though BA.2 seems more contagious and pathogenic than Omicron, it may not wind up causing a more devastating wave of Covid-19 infections.

[Edward64]

A side note from above article. Below made me think it must really suck to be a lab rat/hamster.

When the researchers infected hamsters with BA.2 and BA.1, the animals infected with BA.2 got sicker and had worse lung function. In tissues samples, the lungs of BA.2-infected hamsters had more damage than those infected by BA.1.

[Edward64]

Some interesting stats from polls

COVID-19 Isn’t Going Anywhere — And Americans Know It | FiveThirtyEight

A recent Monmouth University poll found that 70 percent of Americans agreed with the statement, “It’s time we accept that Covid is here to stay and we just need to get on with our lives.”
:
It’s not an outlier, either. A Feb. 11-13 poll from Harris found that 71 percent of Americans agreed with the statement, “We will be living with COVID in some form forever.”

The wording is tricky. Prefer if it was worded as "no or greatly reduced". I would in the 29%, at least for next 3-4 months.

21 percent of Americans said we should “get back to life as usual with no coronavirus mandates or requirements.”
29 percent thought we should move toward that goal with some precautions,
23 percent wanted to mostly keep precautions in place
21 percent wanted to increase precautions.

Vaccination to get on a plane is probably in the top 2 restrictions I lift last. The other being in a crowded indoor environment.

Pew Research Center, 73 percent of Americans were fully vaccinated, but just 58 percent supported requiring proof of vaccination to fly.

[Noop]

BA.2 is concerning for sure. Thank goodness I do not mean being away from people and wear a mask everywhere I go.

[Atocep]

It's shocking to everyone here I'm sure, but Ivermectin doesn't work as a covid treatment.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...rticle/2789362

In this randomized clinical trial of early ivermectin treatment for adults with mild to moderate COVID-19 and comorbidities, we found no evidence that ivermectin was efficacious in reducing the risk of severe disease. Our findings are consistent with the results of the IVERCOR-COVID19 trial,17 which found that ivermectin was ineffective in reducing the risk of hospitalization.

[QuikSand]

I know these stories are everywhere, each one still hurts.

My wife’s family is about to lose a loved one. In her late 80s, had been in a care facility due to a heart condition. Advised by her South Carolinian daughter and caretaker to NOT get vaccinated, and didn’t. Now she’s in late stage COVID and will die painfully from it soon.

It’s not malice by the daughter, it’s propaganda and she’s a victim/mark. I don’t even know how to feel. We weren’t too close but my wife has strong old memories of her great aunt, and is deeply saddened by the situation. Another life lost where the deniers will glibly point to an actuarial table and say her life lost this way for no reason meant nothing because she was 88.

Eat shit, you damned monsters.

[Brian Swartz]

[Solecismic]

A mile or so from here, today, there was a troupe of political hangers-on - including Roger Stone, Eric Trump, Michael Flynn, the My Pillow guy, that doctor who claims she has cured thousands with hydroxychloroquine, something about devils... it's basically a greatest hits tour from the band of right-wing conpiracy theorists. Stone is quoted as saying the White House has become a "demonic portal." Sigh.

I don't know what to say... for someone to advise an elderly relative not to get vaccinated... that's bigger than politics. This has to stop. Both the conspiracy stuff and the cheering for the death count (whoever came up with the Herman Cain awards - that's truly low).

It seems like Ivermectin isn't what some hoped it was. The study in question mentions a specific trial of those sick who have comorbidities. But that's exactly the group we should be most interested in helping - the thought was Ivermectin could be a treatment for the sick, not a substitute for the vaccine - a concept most people seem to ignore. But now that we have a few more mature studies coming out, not looking like much of anything. Joe Rogan survived, as do most. But probably not because of anything he took.

[Edward64]

FWIW, I'll assume the Duke study is more robust and all encompassing (different dosage levels, much larger population, and it's Duke). Odds are low IMO but I'm willing to wait another month for the study. Regardless, not much will come of it either way.

https://www.cbs17.com/community/heal...eworming-drug/

Doctors at Duke want to know once and for all whether Ivermectin can actually work against COVID-19.

They’re leading a national study that is testing how effective the polarizing horse-dewormer and two other common drugs are against the virus.

“We’re aiming to find out, one way or another, does it have a role?” said Dr. Adrian Hernandez, one of the leaders of the study. “And if so, what is it?”

It began over the summer and isn’t expected to wrap up until March 2023, but Hernandez says he hopes to have some results within the next month.

[Edward64]

Great news for Africa. Do wonder about financial agreement with Pfizer/Moderna?

Six African countries to begin making mRNA vaccines as part of WHO scheme | Vaccines and immunisation | The Guardian

Six African countries – Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria, Senegal, South Africa and Tunisia – will be the first on the continent to receive the technology needed to produce their own mRNA vaccines from a scheme headed by the World Health Organization.

The groundbreaking project aims to assist low- and middle-income countries in manufacturing mRNA vaccines at scale and according to international standards, with the aim of ending much of the reliance of African countries on vaccine manufacturers outside the continent.

The announcement comes in the same week that BioNTech, which produces the Pfizer vaccine for Covid-19 – itself an mRNA vaccine – announced it planned to deliver factory facilities built out of shipping containers to several African countries to allow the Pfizer vaccine to be produced on the continent.

I've not read much about outbreaks in Africa. Unsure if it's MSM not reporting or if Covid doesn't have as big of an impact (relatively speaking).

He pointed out on Friday that 116 countries globally were still off-track for the target of vaccinating 70% of the population by the middle of this year, while 80% of the population of Africa was yet to receive a single dose.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I know these stories are everywhere, each one still hurts.

My wife’s family is about to lose a loved one. In her late 80s, had been in a care facility due to a heart condition. Advised by her South Carolinian daughter and caretaker to NOT get vaccinated, and didn’t. Now she’s in late stage COVID and will die painfully from it soon.

It’s not malice by the daughter, it’s propaganda and she’s a victim/mark. I don’t even know how to feel. We weren’t too close but my wife has strong old memories of her great aunt, and is deeply saddened by the situation. Another life lost where the deniers will glibly point to an actuarial table and say her life lost this way for no reason meant nothing because she was 88.

Eat shit, you damned monsters.

and the horrible thing is her family will blame it on old age, the hospital, etc...and not get vaccinated.

We are such a society of "it can't happen to me."

[albionmoonlight]

Sorry, Q. That 100% fucking sucks.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I don't know what to say... for someone to advise an elderly relative not to get vaccinated... that's bigger than politics. This has to stop. Both the conspiracy stuff and the cheering for the death count (whoever came up with the Herman Cain awards - that's truly low).

Some people are misleading others into making horrible health decisions. Other people are warning about the consequences of making those horrible health decisions. Both sides are so bad I can't tell the difference!

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

Other people are warning about the consequences of making those horrible health decisions.

Except they aren't just doing that. They're often overtly celebrating those consequences, and it's also quite common to see said consequences exaggerated as is reflected in the level of knowledge (or lack thereof) among the public.

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

and it's also quite common to see said consequences exaggerated as is reflected in the level of knowledge (or lack thereof) among the public.

I don't understand this part - what does this mean?

Yes, some people are mean on the internet. I spent like 2 minutes doing a search and found these posts.

Thanks for saving my daddy! He’d had covid then a heart attack from it but THIS sub convinced him with my harrassment. : HermanCainAward

I was on the fence about the vaccine until I found this sub, got my second shot today. You guys probably saved my life : HermanCainAward

Thank you for showing me the way, subreddit. I was opposed for a long time but you guys kicked some common sense in. : HermanCainAward

My extended family is all in the running based on their social media. This subreddit was what fully convinced me, after waffling back and forth. Officially out of the running. And so relieved, honestly. : HermanCainAward

[flere-imsaho]

The idea that ivermectin, an anti-parasitical medication, could achieve any anti-viral efficacy was a long shot at the start. Back before we had vaccines, I could understand the desire to try it out of desperation, and let's be honest, it's probably safer than injecting or drinking bleach.

But we now live in a world with 3 exceptionally safe & efficacious vaccines, one effective COVID-targeted anti-viral, and one very effective COVID-targeted anti-viral.

At this point, anyone advising anyone to do anything other than utilize these scientifically proven remedies for COVID is literally advising someone to take their very real chances with serious near and long-term health detrioration, up to and including an incredibly scary & painful death.

If we want to draw an equivalency between people doing this and the Herman Cain Awards, then fine, but I'll point out that that subreddit is not going out and advising people to take life-threatening risks.


Years ago I took my car in for routine maintenance. A couple of hours later my mechanic called to let me know that the sway bar on the vehicle had rusted through. He said it should be replaced, and if I didn't replace it, I should stay off highways or other high speed roads. Because I'm not a mechanic, I listened to him and replaced the sway bar. A few months later, on the interstate between Minneapolis & Madison, the semi in front of me blew a tire and started swerving all over the road. Several emergency maneuvers later, I managed to bring the car under control while avoiding the trailer (where the tire blew) and all the debris caused by the tire explosion.

"How about we stop all the bullshit and listen to the scientists" is, apparently, a radical notion for the 21st century.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Except they aren't just doing that. They're often overtly celebrating those consequences, and it's also quite common to see said consequences exaggerated as is reflected in the level of knowledge (or lack thereof) among the public.

To be clear, you think the Herman Cain awards are pushing the general public to get over-vaccinated & put too much trust in medicine, and you think that is a comparable threat to anti-vax misinformation?

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

To be clear, you think the Herman Cain awards are pushing the general public to get over-vaccinated & put too much trust in medicine, and you think that is a comparable threat to anti-vax misinformation?

No on both counts.

[thesloppy]

Then what reflections of the consequences of the Herman Cain awards are you talking about?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Except they aren't just doing that. They're often overtly celebrating those consequences, and it's also quite common to see said consequences exaggerated as is reflected in the level of knowledge (or lack thereof) among the public.

First off, we can all agree there are assholes on the internet. That aside my perception is people aren't celebrating the deaths on unvaxed, they are celebrating the deaths of the people pushing ant vax propaganda, usually for profit. To that I say fair game. Fuck those people, karma is a bitch and it came for them, and maybe their deaths will save some lives. IMO they got what they deserved.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Lathum

First off, we can all agree there are assholes on the internet. That aside my perception is people aren't celebrating the deaths on unvaxed, they are celebrating the deaths of the people pushing ant vax propaganda, usually for profit. To that I say fair game. Fuck those people, karma is a bitch and it came for them, and maybe their deaths will save some lives. IMO they got what they deserved.

It's always tricky when someone says "my perception is..." and connects it to a specific evil that may or may not have anything to do with the person in question.

It's a lot like the argument earlier that since Aaron Rodgers has some ill-informed beliefs that it's OK to accuse him of being in QAnon or having ties to white supremacist organizations. To be clear, I'm not saying you did that. I'm saying that's the level of public discussion these days. Just pick an extreme nearly everyone agrees is outside the lines of reasonable action and connect whatever it is you're arguing against to that extreme. When people do that, it's not OK. And it's not OK to say Herman Cain got what he deserved.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I don't know what to say... for someone to advise an elderly relative not to get vaccinated... that's bigger than politics. This has to stop. Both the conspiracy stuff and the cheering for the death count (whoever came up with the Herman Cain awards - that's truly low).

Let's try to quantify this, since it seems like some equivalence is being drawn here. If 20 is "high", 10 is "neutral", and 0 is "low":

Spreading conspiracy theory stuff = what number?
Posting a Herman Cain award = what number?

Because it sounds an awful lot like "spreading conspiracy theory" = low (5?), "Herman Cain Award" = truly low (0).

Whereas, I'd be like
"posting someone and 'celebrating' Herman Cain Award" = 5, in poor taste
"spreading disinformation that can actually kill a person" = 0 or 1, I mean, you could actively /kill people/

SI

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Let's try to quantify this, since it seems like some equivalence is being drawn here. If 20 is "high", 10 is "neutral", and 0 is "low":

Spreading conspiracy theory stuff = what number?
Posting a Herman Cain award = what number?

Because it sounds an awful lot like "spreading conspiracy theory" = low (5?), "Herman Cain Award" = truly low (0).

Whereas, I'd be like
"posting someone and 'celebrating' Herman Cain Award" = 5, in poor taste
"spreading disinformation that can actually kill a person" = 0 or 1, I mean, you could actively /kill people/

SI

Well, maybe your post is a 15 and mine is a 37. Or vice versa. With today's social media, the scores you assign are whatever makes you feel good.

And speaking of disinformation. What's with all the masking? Still, people are forced to wear masks - cloth is just fine - when cloth masks don't help. Doesn't that kill people, in that they think they can't catch or spread COVID because they're wearing a mask?

It's great to assign scores. There are real scores somewhere - levels of disinformation, intent, harm. But how do we honestly and fairly determine them?

As you say, it sounds an awful lot like you are a good person and I'm clearly not.

[PilotMan]

Saying cloth masks don't help with the spread of the virus is like saying that trees in the fairway won't keep the ball from going in the cup when I hit it.

Just because you can still catch and transmit the virus with masks on doesn't mean that it's not an effective part of an overall plan to help limit transmission.

I'm not masking now unless I'm required to, and I think it's time to roll things back and transition to the next stage, but there's a difference between saying masks don't help and recognizing why they were encouraged and mandated. There's a lot of in between in the understanding between "they don't help" and "wearing them makes me bulletproof from it".

I think recognizing and understanding all that, by everyone regardless of your opinions, helps us all get to the end faster.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Well, maybe your post is a 15 and mine is a 37. Or vice versa. With today's social media, the scores you assign are whatever makes you feel good.

And speaking of disinformation. What's with all the masking? Still, people are forced to wear masks - cloth is just fine - when cloth masks don't help. Doesn't that kill people, in that they think they can't catch or spread COVID because they're wearing a mask?

It's great to assign scores. There are real scores somewhere - levels of disinformation, intent, harm. But how do we honestly and fairly determine them?

As you say, it sounds an awful lot like you are a good person and I'm clearly not.

I guess I'll quote you quoting me: it sounds an awful lot like you made a ridiculous false equivalence trying to "both sides" this and haven't liked it being pointed out by a number of different people. But, hey, it makes those other people aloof assholes for pointing it out and you a reasonable impartial observer victim.

SI

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Saying cloth masks don't help with the spread of the virus is like saying that trees in the fairway won't keep the ball from going in the cup when I hit it.

Just because you can still catch and transmit the virus with masks on doesn't mean that it's not an effective part of an overall plan to help limit transmission.

I'm not masking now unless I'm required to, and I think it's time to roll things back and transition to the next stage, but there's a difference between saying masks don't help and recognizing why they were encouraged and mandated. There's a lot of in between in the understanding between "they don't help" and "wearing them makes me bulletproof from it".

I think recognizing and understanding all that, by everyone regardless of your opinions, helps us all get to the end faster.

I agree (trying to put a number on it) maybe 50%. Nuance is absent in at least 98.5% of social media postings. What I'm getting at with the masks is exactly that the mandates give people the impression that cloth masks offer a protection that can trump other common sense behavior (like don't go out when you're sick). Which can cause far more harm in the long run. Obviously, the ball won't go in the cup when you stay home and miss your tee time.

You can also make yourself quite sick worrying about other people's mask behavior (some prefer under the nose, some prefer them dangling from one ear, some think they get protection by carrying a mask in their purses or wallets).

[molson]

I wonder if the mask skeptics cover their mouth when they cough generally, or wash their hands after they use the bathroom.

There's no guarantees, but certain circumstances call for hygienic practices.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Lathum

First off, we can all agree there are assholes on the internet. That aside my perception is people aren't celebrating the deaths on unvaxed, they are celebrating the deaths of the people pushing ant vax propaganda, usually for profit. To that I say fair game. Fuck those people, karma is a bitch and it came for them, and maybe their deaths will save some lives. IMO they got what they deserved.

Every time one of those people die, I feel the world getting a little healthier, a little smarter.

They've taken so much from us.

And they're the ones that have chosen to suffocate to death at a hospital to own the libs. I wanted then to get a vaccine and be healthy. I wanted them to happily live decades longer, and protect those around them, and not clog up the hospitals. If someone chooses death just to spite people who wish them well, they don't deserve our grief, they deserve our mockery

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I guess I'll quote you quoting me: it sounds an awful lot like you made a ridiculous false equivalence trying to "both sides" this and haven't liked it being pointed out by a number of different people. But, hey, it makes those other people aloof assholes for pointing it out and you a reasonable impartial observer victim.

SI

It sounds an awful lot like you simply didn't like how I feel about celebrating Herman Cain's death. I made no equivalences - I only added it to the narrative of things that divide rather than unite.

You are constructing the ridiculous straw man of equivalence for burning.

You are the one who divined that I meant that the two somehow cancel each other out. I don't know why you made that assumption, but hey, might as well turn that into a cry of righteousness.

Both behaviors are wrong, for different reasons and by differing degrees of harm and intent.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It sounds an awful lot like you simply didn't like how I feel about celebrating Herman Cain's death. I made no equivalences - I only added it to the narrative of things that divide rather than unite.

You are constructing the ridiculous straw man of equivalence for burning.

You are the one who divined that I meant that the two somehow cancel each other out. I don't know why you made that assumption, but hey, might as well turn that into a cry of righteousness.

Both behaviors are wrong, for different reasons and by differing degrees of harm and intent.

You literally said

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I don't know what to say... for someone to advise an elderly relative not to get vaccinated... that's bigger than politics. This has to stop. Both the conspiracy stuff and the cheering for the death count (whoever came up with the Herman Cain awards - that's truly low).

Then I asked if you wanted to try to clarify/quantify that and offered my own perspective to show where I was coming from. And you were like "lolz, internet points".

SI

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Just because you can still catch and transmit the virus with masks on doesn't mean that it's not an effective part of an overall plan to help limit transmission.

Originally Posted by Solecismic

What I'm getting at with the masks is exactly that the mandates give people the impression that cloth masks offer a protection that can trump other common sense behavior (like don't go out when you're sick).

The mandating of seat belts did not stop some people from driving in a way not consistent with common sense behavior, but still led to an overall decline in traffic fatalities.

In the sense, the Herman Cain Awards are on par with something like this: Public Service Announcement for Seatbelts - YouTube

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

You literally said



Then I asked if you wanted to try to clarify/quantify that and offered my own perspective to show where I was coming from. And you were like "lolz, internet points".

SI

What I said was "It's great to assign scores. There are real scores somewhere - levels of disinformation, intent, harm. But how do we honestly and fairly determine them?"

I'm sorry that didn't count as a serious response to your question. I'll take that as another example of how divided we are as a country. Even people who generally agree on a subject, but want to add nuance to the discussion, are quickly added to the pyre.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It sounds an awful lot like you simply didn't like how I feel about celebrating Herman Cain's death. I made no equivalences - I only added it to the narrative of things that divide rather than unite.

This is a load of steaming horse dung.

What is dividing us is people spreading misinformation about the vaccine, treatments, mask wearing, etc...a minority of anti science morons keeping this pandemic alive while also yelling "lets go Brandon" because he hasn't ended Covid. People yelling at kids outside schools wearing masks. Idiot truckers clogging up major arteries between nations. Joe Rogan giving credibility to quacks, lawmakers profiting from promoting unproven or flat out rejected treatments.

Pointing out someone who spread all these myths at the detriment to themselves and others, usually for profit, is only divisive if you're one of these idiots. For everyone else it is a public service that may save lives.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

What I said was "It's great to assign scores. There are real scores somewhere - levels of disinformation, intent, harm. But how do we honestly and fairly determine them?"

I'm sorry that didn't count as a serious response to your question. I'll take that as another example of how divided we are as a country. Even people who generally agree on a subject, but want to add nuance to the discussion, are quickly added to the pyre.

Come on Jim, you must know by now not to argue with the uber-enlightened is not the done thing

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Both the conspiracy stuff and the cheering for the death count (whoever came up with the Herman Cain awards - that's truly low).

I don't think the Herman Cain stuff is unique. Society has celebrated the death of those who cause death or intend to cause death on others. There's a thread here celebrating the death of Bin Laden. When a suicide bomber blows themself up, we laugh at them and call it karmic justice.

Cain is unique in that he was someone with serious health issues. He gave up his life to show fealty to a man who would not piss on him if he was on fire. By all accounts he had a large family who loved him dearly. How do you describe a man who put some Twitter likes ahead of his own family's mental anguish?

There was also the weird aspect where his team was tweeting under his name about how Covid was hoax while he was hooked up to a ventilator slowly dying. Those actions made him the perfect symbol for the spiraling death cult.

I can see how it comes across as cruel. I feel for his family and wish he had cared more about them. But I don't think it is unnatural for people to point out the absurdity of it all.

[thesloppy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There was also the weird aspect where his team was tweeting under his name about how Covid was hoax while he was hooked up to a ventilator slowly dying. Those actions made him the perfect symbol for the spiraling death cult.

I had managed to forget that part. Absurd.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

First off, we can all agree there are assholes on the internet. That aside my perception is people aren't celebrating the deaths on unvaxed, they are celebrating the deaths of the people pushing ant vax propaganda, usually for profit. To that I say fair game. Fuck those people, karma is a bitch and it came for them, and maybe their deaths will save some lives. IMO they got what they deserved.

I don't really give a flip about "people pushing anti vax propaganda, (deleted) for profit" (e.g. politicians, talk show hosts). However, there are plenty deaths made fun of in reddit r/hermancainaward that are just regular folks that are ignorant, deceived etc. Those IMO are in bad taste.