Trump Indictment/Trial thread-2023

[CrimsonFox]

Trump peed his pants.

[CrimsonFox]

I posted this 4 years ago on facebook and it popped up as a memory.

STILL revelant today!

[Atocep]

The first witness yesterday destroyed the entire defense argument made in opening statements. I have a feeling the defense will end up just being throw as much shit at the wall as possible, hope it muddies the waters or confuses the jury, and lean heavily on reasonable doubt.

Also, Trump called for MAGA to show up and protest and like 5 people showed up so he claims thousands of protesters are being turned away.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Atocep

The first witness yesterday destroyed the entire defense argument made in opening statements. I have a feeling the defense will end up just being throw as much shit at the wall as possible, hope it muddies the waters or confuses the jury, and lean heavily on reasonable doubt.

Also, Trump called for MAGA to show up and protest and like 5 people showed up so he claims thousands of protesters are being turned away.

There was one person yesterday when a reporter went to check after Trump's call for protests

[Lathum]

The defenses opening statement seemed desperate. They attacked the witnesses and the process. Seems to me that’s what you do when you can’t defend the allegations.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Lathum

The defenses opening statement seemed desperate. They attacked the witnesses and the process. Seems to me that’s what you do when you can’t defend the allegations.

Actually that's what you do when you're a dumbass. It's just a coincidence that it also works for desperation

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Actually that's what you do when you're a dumbass. It's just a coincidence that it also works for desperation

By all accounts his attorney is not stupid. That being said he is also probably handcuffed by Trumps ego.

[RainMaker]

I actually think it's a decent strategy. The facts aren't in his favor. Their best hope is to play this up as a political prosecution and hope there's one MAGA on the jury who will refuse to convict.

He's had some shitty lawyers in the past but Blanche knows what he's doing.

[RainMaker]

Looks like fake electors are being charged in Arizona.

https://mcusercontent.com/cc1fad182b...ictment.03.pdf

There are seven people not revealed because they haven't been charged yet. But some reporters figured out they are:

Rudy Giuliani
Mark Meadows
Mike Roman
Ken Chesebro

Trump is also listed as an unindicted co-conspirator.

[Thomkal]

Man wish they would just indict trump right along with them. that's 3 states now where Republicans tried to overthrow the election and trump was the #1 Republican

[CrimsonFox]

There has been a lot of talk about 'diet coke guy' which I had no idea what that even meant. I guess there was a guy essentially paid to provide idiot with endless IV of diet coke and he was the guy that hid the documents and moved them around so the big bad fbi couldn't take them away. And diet cokehead still works for trump and is also indicted.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

There has been a lot of talk about 'diet coke guy' which I had no idea what that even meant. I guess there was a guy essentially paid to provide idiot with endless IV of diet coke and he was the guy that hid the documents and moved them around so the big bad fbi couldn't take them away. And diet cokehead still works for trump and is also indicted.

Lives of the rich and famous, LOL. How does that look on a resume?

12 years as the diet coke regulator for a crazed narcissist

Job responsibilities included
1-Ensuring the pull tab was opened to at least a 72 degree angle, to allow maximum carbonation enrichment.

2-Providing 3 symmetrical ice cubes, all carved to resemble said narcissist, allowing not only complete enjoyment of his sweet liquid treasure, but the added comfort of staring at 3 tiny images of himself as he took each sip.

3-Quality control over label covers which corrected calories from 180 per can (fake news) to 7 calories per can, which made my employer the healthiest, slimmest mass consumer of carbonated flotsam the world has ever seen, never seen anyone this healthy, much more healthy than a 20 year old vegan tree hugger.

4-Hiding classified Government documents, for the sole purpose of ensuring no diet Coke was ever spilled on them, no really, my employer protected classified documents even better than the CIA and FBI.

[Lathum]

Trump found in contempt 9 times and is being threatened with jail time if he keeps it up.

[albionmoonlight]

I think that jailing him gives him some of what he wants.

Putting a monitor on his social media would be pretty funny

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I think that jailing him gives him some of what he wants.

Putting a monitor on his social media would be pretty funny

I was going to post the same. As a contempt penalty could they put him in a room where he could watch the trial with cctv, be seen on camera, but not be heard? An audio connection to his lawyers via ear piece would let him still be involved, but no way to vocally disrupt the trial? And if he can be seen having fits while not heard? That's not going to be a good look.

[cuervo72]

Yeah, my idea was that he should be in one of those boxes they have in Russia. Or the equivalent of the Cone of Silence from Get Smart. But, I'm not sure those would look too good either.

[albionmoonlight]

Another kind of crazy point that someone made--for most of us, having to be somewhere we'd rather not be and doing something we'd rather not be doing on a weekday isn't weird. It's our jobs.

But in his almost 80 years on Earth, this is the first time that he's had to be somewhere and do something he'd rather not be doing.

And watching the effect on him is kind of amazing.

[albionmoonlight]

Still, a pretty good run by him of not having to do anything he didn't want to do.

Goes to show that being born rich is still the best job out there.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Trump found in contempt 9 times and is being threatened with jail time if he keeps it up.

wait what? I thought once you are in contempt you are taken away

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

wait what? I thought once you are in contempt you are taken away

No. That's one possible remedy, but would be more for someone acting up in court.

Trump was held in contempt for violating the gag order based on social media posts. So removal from the courtroom would not really be an appropriate remedy.

[CrimsonFox]

I mean you can't take away the internet...

[albionmoonlight]

Trump hinted today that the gag order will keep him from testifying.

That is, of course, not true. But it shows him exploring ways to save face.

He will not testify. He has no obligation to. And there is no way he will subject himself to cross examination.

But he has to not look like he's backing down. A pretty obvious evasion (and one I still expect) is for him to say that he wanted to testify but his lawyers would not let him. (That would be a lie. The decision to testify or not belongs to the client not the lawyer). I can see why he's also workshopping the gag order fake excuse. It fits into the persecution myth he's selling to his acolytes.

[Thomkal]

Yeah he's all tough talk about testifying right until they get to the part in the trial where he has to, and he chickens out every time. So he has to make up excuses for why he's not testifying. Any good DA would tear him apart if he ever did testify. I hope this judge makes it crystal clear to him and the jury that the choice to testify has always been Trump's not his.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Yeah he's all tough talk about testifying right until they get to the part in the trial where he has to, and he chickens out every time. So he has to make up excuses for why he's not testifying. Any good DA would tear him apart if he ever did testify. I hope this judge makes it crystal clear to him and the jury that the choice to testify has always been Trump's not his.

I think that is good practice for any criminal defendant. I know some judges who, out of the presence of the jury, explain to the defendant, personally, their right to testify or not testify and make sure the defendant tells them directly (i.e. not through their lawyer) whether they will or won't.

It's a good system.

[albionmoonlight]

dola:

The judge will not, however, make a big show of it to the jury. Indeed, the jury will be specifically instructed to draw no inference from Trump's decision not to testify.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I think that is good practice for any criminal defendant. I know some judges who, out of the presence of the jury, explain to the defendant, personally, their right to testify or not testify and make sure the defendant tells them directly (i.e. not through their lawyer) whether they will or won't.

It's a good system.

yeah if I was ever a judge, that would be how I would do it. Lawyers are used to talking lawyer-language in the courtroom, defendants often are not and judges need to make sure they know their rights.

[Ksyrup]

It's also for practical reasons for an appeal, if any - to put on the record that the defendant, as free from pressure of his/her lawyer as possible, agrees of their own free will that they have decided not to testify. This helps to short-circuit an "ineffective assistance of counsel" argument, at least as it relates to the decision to testify.

[Thomkal]

ha! Judge has already told him he has a constitutional right to testify or not.

[molson]

This issue caused me much consternation years ago (especially because I was figuring it all out as I went).

In my state (and I think this was relatively unique in states at the time when it came up, no idea if that's still true), a defendant can't be found to have waived the right to testify unless the record affirmatively shows he was aware he had that right, and also was aware of his authority to decide whether to testify, no matter what his attorney wanted him to do.

So in that situation, if the court doesn't put that advisement on the record, the state could still potentially win an ineffective assistance of counsel claim (where it's the defendant's burden to prove a constitutional violation), but it's impossible for the state to win the merits of a "violation of right to testify" issue unless the defendant's awareness of his right is evident somewhere else in the record; and then the conviction is vacated unless the state can prove that error is harmless. So the state has to make sure to remind the court to give that warning in the record, if they drop the ball on that.

Then you have to untie all that when the case gets to a federal habeas proceeding, where federal constitutional law as recognized by the United States Supreme Court applies, and sometimes review under that standard is less stringent than what the state courts are doing.

So that was probably 2-3 years in state appeals, another year or two in the federal habeas litigating just that claim, which all could have been avoided if the judge just said, "hey, you have this right". So they're better about doing that now.

There's a lot of boxes to check to make sure this all goes right (which is a feature, not a bug). And I know that can be hard in your normal case where where the trial attorneys and judge are doing everything on the fly and the appellate and habeas attorneys get to sit back with more time on their hands and carefully figure out all the ways everybody fucked up at trial.

[Thomkal]

thank the gods we have lawyers here who can explain all this. It will be a good thing when we get sued for defamation.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

thank the gods we have lawyers

I'm just going to briefly live in a little fantasy where someone said this part.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm just going to briefly live in a little fantasy where someone said this part.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm just going to briefly live in a little fantasy where someone said this part.

As much as you guys get crapped on, thank God there are lawyers.

[cartman]

everyone hates lawyers until they need one

[albionmoonlight]

Trump continuing to show up to court with printouts of articles that he thinks helps him reminds me of a lot of "not legally incompetent, but not all there either" criminal defendants that I have seen.

[Thomkal]

Trump fined another $1,000 for one of his gag order violations, but not the others. Judge told him that this is the 10th violation-I do not want to put you in jail, but clearly fines are not stopping you, so that may be the option if you continue to disobey my orders.

[Ksyrup]

Thank you sir, may I have another (fundraising email)!

[NobodyHere]

Can gag orders be challenged in court? I imagine there could be some first amendment grounds for an appeal.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Can gag orders be challenged in court? I imagine there could be some first amendment grounds for an appeal.

Yes, they can. Not sure if he is appealing the fines or not

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Can gag orders be challenged in court? I imagine there could be some first amendment grounds for an appeal.

He did appeal the gag order and it was rejected by the appellate court. The Supreme Court has historically ruled that as long as gag order are as narrow as possible they're constitutional based on the 6th ammendment right to a fair trial.

[albionmoonlight]

also, this judge is being very careful. He's not finding every violation alleged by the prosecution. He's making a point of imposing fines but indicating that they may not be enough.

If (and it is still a big if IMO) it escalates to jail time, he will have papered it over very well.

[Lathum]

I think he’s going to get locked up at some point. He’s not going to stop, his lawyers can’t control him, and at some point the judge will start looking weak if he doesn’t have a response with some teeth.

[RainMaker]

I don't think he's going to stop and I think the judge will just keep giving him leeway because that's how our justice system works. Feels like any other defendant would be locked up by now.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Trump fined another $1,000 for one of his gag order violations, but not the others. Judge told him that this is the 10th violation-I do not want to put you in jail, but clearly fines are not stopping you, so that may be the option if you continue to disobey my orders.

Next the judge is going to put Trump on double secret probation!

[Brian Swartz]

We could have a 'fun' question if he wins the election and is in jail at the time. Do they hold the inauguration at the prison, or ??

[NobodyHere]

And do we know if he gets Secret Service protection while he's behind bars?

[Kodos]

He does.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

And do we know if he gets Secret Service protection while he's behind bars?

Last I heard that hadn't been decided, it's a wait and see if it necessary thing. Sadly even after all this, there will be still be secret service lining up to protect him in prison.

[Brian Swartz]

How is that sad? Should federal agencies stop doing their job because they don't like who the president is, or do I misunderstand your point?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

How is that sad? Should federal agencies stop doing their job because they don't like who the president is, or do I misunderstand your point?

It’s sad that any member of law enforcement would support him.