Beijing Olympics 2008

[JonInMiddleGA]

And HA gets the thousandth post with the fake Chinese eyes picture.

Kind of nice to know that the FOFC hasn't really changed all that much really

[Icy]

The issue with that picture is the most exaggerated and manipulated news i have read in years. Maybe in other countries that had and have racism problems for years, the press is so paranoid, but in countries where racism has not ever been an issue, that kind of pic wouldn't have even made the news.

Funny how the UK press tried to make a bid thing about this while they tried to hide on every possible way their prince going to a private party wearing a nazi suit.

There is a popular said in Spain that translated is something like: "Thinks the thief that everybody is like him"

[Critch]

Originally Posted by Icy

Funny how the UK press tried to make a bid thing about this while they tried to hide on every possible way their prince going to a private party wearing a nazi suit.

The photographs were on the front page of the biggest selling newspaper in the UK and he was widely ridiculed for being an idiot on all the British press. That must be the worst cover up in history.

Maybe instead of condemning him for being an idiot they should have just blamed the foreign press for reporting it, as you appear to be doing with the Spanish basketball teams racism.

[Anthony]

fwiw, i don't think the Spanish team was being racist (and i'm not looking to rehash what's probably an old arguement in this thread). just pointing out how the pots shouldn't be calling the kettles black.

good teams should have swagger. that's why there's more Chinese people buying NBA jerseys of Americans than they buy of Yao Ming. was Jordan any unsportsmanlike when he jumped up like he won the lottery in that Bulls/Cavs game where he hit like 20 three pointers in one game? what about Tiger when he does his trademark fist pump?

if you're their competitors and you don't want to see that stuff, the solution is rather simple - stop them.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Icy

The issue with that picture is the most exaggerated and manipulated news i have read in years. Maybe in other countries that had and have racism problems for years, the press is so paranoid, but in countries where racism has not ever been an issue, that kind of pic wouldn't have even made the news.

Funny how the UK press tried to make a bid thing about this while they tried to hide on every possible way their prince going to a private party wearing a nazi suit.

There is a popular said in Spain that translated is something like: "Thinks the thief that everybody is like him"

So nobody's allowed to criticize racism unless their country has never had an issue with it? That wouldn't bode well for world progress in this area. The Spanish team was right to be called out for that display. I'm actually surprised it wasn't bigger news. If that was the US team there'd be calls to have them banned from the Olympics (with the Europeans surely leading the rallying cry). But apparently not as much is expected from the Spaniards, which isn't surprising after what I've read about the experiences of Samuel Eto'o there.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by molson

So nobody's allowed to criticize racism unless their country has never had an issue with it?

You didn't understand what i wanted to mean, or maybe it was my own problem not being able to write what i wanted to say. What i tried to mean is that with all the issues that other countries (I.E. USA) had with racism in the past, your press and society is way more sensible about it, maybe even too much, so what in another country could be thought as a simple joke, your press can make it a huge deal and creating the real racist issue from nowhere. For example making such a big deal from that picture when even the Chinese didn't care about it.

The Chinese ambassador in Spain was surprised by the UK and USA press reaction to that pic, and he also said that he didn't see it as offensive at all. Else the Chinese government or ambassador would have officially protested about it, but they didn't. Also the Spanish team didn't hide that pic, it was never thought as offensive at all and it was going to be used in a marketing campaign by a beer company. Why? because nobody thought it could offend anybody. So it's not that they are racist and wanted to make privately fun of the Chinese eyes as the USA and UK press tried to show.

I see it as if before the Olympic in Spain, the Chinese team makes a pick of themselves wearing a "torero" suit meaning that they are coming to Spain. Most of us wouldn't find i offensive but funny, of course maybe some short minded would feel offended and would be more vocal about it, but nobody would pay them attention in the news.

Imho it is as racist to go against the minorities than to overprotect them and to think that everything is against them, creating a ghetto (let's say a "press ghetto" in this example) for them to be hidden, and at the end, not allowing them to integrate with the rest of the society, in fact generating more hate at both sides. Both are forms of racism.

Originally Posted by molson

But apparently not as much is expected from the Spaniards, which isn't surprising after what I've read about the experiences of Samuel Eto'o there.

Probably you just read something in the news about an incident he had with some radicals that insulted him (sadly). It's the same that if i say all Americans are racist because i read somewhere that the KKK did something racist.

There are stupids in every country but you can't generalize, do not believe all that you read in the news, specially when you read only one version of it.

I'm going to leave this discussion now with the hope that you understood it and that i could explain well myself. Racism is a sensible matter that i don't feel comfortable discussing in a language that is not my native, as it's so easy to create a misunderstanding from my improper use of the right words.

[RPI-Fan]

SPAIN hasn't had racism issues before??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Soccer: Racist Spanish fans push Eto'o to edge - International Herald Tribune

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Icy

Funny how the UK press tried to make a bid thing about this while they tried to hide on every possible way their prince going to a private party wearing a nazi suit.

There is a popular said in Spain that translated is something like: "Thinks the thief that everybody is like him"

I have a lot of respect for you Icy, but this is one of the dumbest things said recently on this board. He was absolutely pilloried for that crap in the press.

And I think Lewis Hamilton might disagree that there are only a few stupids. I challenge you to find one documented incident like that one at a British sporting venue in the last 20 years. I'm betting however many you find, I can find 10x the number at Spanish venues. But I'm sure that's only the biased UK and US press talking...

[larrymcg421]

We can argue about whether this ad was racist or not, but the thing that gets me is that at no point did anyone think that maybe it wasn't a good idea. Not one single person thought this would backfire in any way. So maybe the Spanish team isn't racist, but they sure are pretty fucking stupid.

[Tigercat]

Originally Posted by Icy

You didn't understand what i wanted to mean, or maybe it was my own problem not being able to write what i wanted to say. What i tried to mean is that with all the issues that other countries (I.E. USA) had with racism in the past, your press and society is way more sensible about it, maybe even too much, so what in another country could be thought as a simple joke, your press can make it a huge deal and creating the real racist issue from nowhere. For example making such a big deal from that picture when even the Chinese didn't care about it.

I think you and the Chinese ambassador to Spain would be more likely to understand how it can be offensive if you lived in a homogeneously populated country that has a large Chinese population. (And therefore been exposed to disrespect and intolerance based upon Chinese heritage.) Its disrespectful. One little disrespectful remark or pose shouldn't be a big deal, but when you go out of your way to make it part of something that is seen by millions? And no one thought "Well gee, maybe we shouldn't do this? We can have fun doing something a little more respectful..." I guess for an encore, if there is ever a summer games in Africa, Spanish players can just put on some black paint on their faces and grab some replica spears or something. No big deal, all in good fun.

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

We can argue about whether this ad was racist or not, but the thing that gets me is that at no point did anyone think that maybe it wasn't a good idea. Not one single person thought this would backfire in any way. So maybe the Spanish team isn't racist, but they sure are pretty fucking stupid.

I agree, it's not so much racist as ridiculously ignorant.

The only reason I knew anything about Eto'o is that he's mentioned so much in commentaries about the Spanish picture. That's the sort of scrutiny that those acts invite.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

I agree, it's not so much racist as ridiculously ignorant.

I don't mean to defend anyone, but at what point does something like this become ridiculously ignorant? If the people doing the "victimizing" don't view their actions as racist and the people being "victimized" don't view it as racist, does that make the uninvolved third-party who is screaming racism the one that is racist?

[molson]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I don't mean to defend anyone, but at what point does something like this become ridiculously ignorant? If the people doing the "victimizing" don't view their actions as racist and the people being "victimized" don't view it as racist, does that make the uninvolved third-party who is screaming racism the one that is racist?

First, I'm sure many Chinese were offended, even if the official state stance was to the contrary.

It's ignorant because they apparently didn't realize the picture would get out and cause a minor rukkus. I have no idea who's right, wrong, or racist. But if I was there when that picture was taken, I would have thought, "these people are morons, just wait until the press gets a hold of this". And there's no practical consequences, if they don't care that a lot of people will THINK they're racists, and they don't care that their nation will face scrutiny that will highlight the racial issues there.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

First, I'm sure many Chinese were offended, even if the official state stance was to the contrary.

You are braver than I am to presume the level of offense of something to a different culture. I feel that situations like these reveal more about ourselves than anyone else.

It's ignorant because they apparently didn't realize the picture would get out and cause a minor rukkus. I have no idea who's right, wrong, or racist. But if I was there when that picture was taken, I would have thought, "these people are morons, just wait until the press gets a hold of this". And there's no practical consequences, if they don't care that a lot of people will THINK they're racists, and they don't care that their nation will face scrutiny that will highlight the racial issues there.

I have no doubt that you or I would expect this picture to cause an uproar. We live in a very racially sensitive country where everything likely to cause a racial uproar. How sensitive are other countries? Have Spain and China had racial issues in the past? I'm not saying that the Spanish people shouldn't have known better since I don't know the related racial sensitivities, but I don't discount the possibility that maybe they had no reason to know better.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by BrianD

You are braver than I am to presume the level of offense of something to a different culture. I feel that situations like these reveal more about ourselves than anyone else.



I have no doubt that you or I would expect this picture to cause an uproar. We live in a very racially sensitive country where everything likely to cause a racial uproar. How sensitive are other countries? Have Spain and China had racial issues in the past? I'm not saying that the Spanish people shouldn't have known better since I don't know the related racial sensitivities, but I don't discount the possibility that maybe they had no reason to know better.

BINGO!

Thanks, you explained perfectly what i have been trying to say all the time but it seems i was not able or you were the only to understand it

[molson]

Originally Posted by BrianD

but I don't discount the possibility that maybe they had no reason to know better.

That's my point - they're ignorant. That doesn't mean they should be locked up or anything, but they're clueless.

And that ignorance might shed some light on the Eto'o situation. Maybe (some) Spaniards just don't know any better than to throw bananas at a black man? In a country where you have that, it's not surprising that you have a photo like that. Maybe none of that is a big deal to them, because they're just not senstive to such things. OK. All they're clueless/ignorant about is how that plays in the rest of the world.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BrianD

You are braver than I am to presume the level of offense of something to a different culture. I feel that situations like these reveal more about ourselves than anyone else.
.

What does it reveal about me that that I think the Spanish Basketball players were morons to take that picture?

[Icy]

Originally Posted by molson

That's my point - they're ignorant. That doesn't mean they should be locked up or anything, but they're clueless.

And that ignorance might shed some light on the Eto'o situation. Maybe (some) Spaniards just don't know any better than to throw bananas at a black man? In a country where you have that, it's not surprising that you have a photo like that. Maybe none of that is a big deal to them, because they're just not senstive to such things. OK. All they're clueless/ignorant about is how that plays in the rest of the world.

You keep trying to tie the 100% racist issue with Etoo with this picture, and are not related at all.

- The pic was never intended to offend. Call them ignorant, i prefer to call them innocent for not thinking it could be found offensive in other countries more sensitive about racism, like USA. BrianD explained it perfectly.

- Etoo issue was 100% racism, as he was called monkey and thrown a banana but it was done by some nazi radicals that hide between the more radical soccer fans (this happens sadly in every country where soccer is a major sport, Spain, UK, Italy). It's not that every Spanish throw bananas to all the black soccer players for fun as you seem to point. That incident was heavily criticised in the Spanish news too, and the police opened an investigation to try to find exactly who was, as that racism act is also prosecuted in Spain and you can go to jail for it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

So I guess we also give the ignorant defense to Spain's women's tennis team?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008...olympicstennis

And while Etoo seems to be getting the play in this thread, let's not forget the Theirry Henry incident or the Lewis Hamilton incident (which I believe was mentioned at least once already).

Look, I'm probably one of the least racially sensitive guys around. Leastwise, I don't believe I'm known for being all touchy feely about the subject. But in light of those events, which drew enough attention & criticism that I knew about them even though they occurred in sports I barely follow, I'm having a tough time absorbing how anyone in the basketball or tennis pictures could have not realized this might be an issue. Or more accurately, I have a really tough time believing someone in them didn't say "um, guys, this might not be a great idea". How big a vacuum can we believe athletes live in?

[Icy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

So I guess we also give the ignorant defense to Spain's women's tennis team?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008...olympicstennis

And while Etoo seems to be getting the play in this thread, let's not forget the Theirry Henry incident or the Lewis Hamilton incident (which I believe was mentioned at least once already).

Look, I'm probably one of the least racially sensitive guys around. Leastwise, I don't believe I'm known for being all touchy feely about the subject. But in light of those events, which drew enough attention & criticism that I knew about them even though they occurred in sports I barely follow, I'm having a tough time absorbing how anyone in the basketball or tennis pictures could have not realized this might be an issue. Or more accurately, I have a really tough time believing someone in them didn't say "um, guys, this might not be a great idea". How big a vacuum can we believe athletes live in?

From that news you posted:
"No offence is believed to have been intended by the photographs and, as yet, Olympic organisers have not issued a complaint in regard to either of them, but the pictures have caused much adverse comment, particularly in the United States."

I think this agrees with BrianD and me.

Btw, all those related news can be found mainly in UK press... that had a huge fight with the Spanish one whole past year with the Hamilton<>Alonso war inside McLaren, where both countries press competed to be the most aggressive and exaggerated trying to make the other side look bad, so i don't think it's a coincidence that it has been the UK press who is after all this racism related news, that while being true and something deplorable, were just isolated acts by some individuals that do not represent a whole country like the UK press wants to make you believe. I'm sure that with some minutes of googling, I can find more than those 3 samples of racism in sports related to every country in the world.

Anyway i'm started to get tired of hitting my head against the wall, i guess i should follow the known advice that arging in a message board is pretty stupid and you can only lose. I doubt we are going to get antyhing possitive from this discussion so i give up. If any of you want, we can keep discussing it by AIM or MSN as we are deviating a ton from this thread original content and i bet most of fofcer's are tired of 3 or 4 guys (including me) discussing about this.

[molson]

I don't think either I nor JIMGA are really disagreeing with you.

Yes, maybe the world's too sensitive. Yes, it's obvious that the players didn't mean any offense. It's just really interesting (and kind of funny) that they (apparently) didn't think this would be a big story in the over-sensitive US and UK press.

I don't know the UK/Spain situation. But this would be major, front-page, round-the-clock coverage to the point of ridiculous if there was a team picture of say, the Boston Celtics doing this before an exhibition game in China. The US media isn't "picking" on Spain any more than they'd pick on anyone else who took a picture like that.

And at the end of the day, nobody really cares, it's harmless. But if you do that, you're going to make news. So the news becomes - how did they not know that?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Icy

(this happens sadly in every country where soccer is a major sport, Spain, UK, Italy)

Except it doesn't really happen in the UK anymore since the crackdowns and doesn't happen in the US in any sport. Yet (and I realize it's unfair to put it on you) Europeans are eager to accuse America of being racist. I still think the controversy was hugely overblown in some quarters, but the constant defense of it by Spanish people and players instead of saying it was a mistake is a little perplexing to me, and is probably prolonging any controversy that much longer.

To get back to the rules controversy, add Jose Calderon to the list of Spaniards who feel they would have won "with FIBA rules" a stern warning: José Calderon : Spain would have won under FIBA rules

[BishopMVP]

Bullet points in response to people I'm too lazy to quote

- Ricky Rubio is eligible for the upcoming (2009) draft age-wise - if he declares for it
- The FIBA 3-pt line is moving back (to 6.75meters?) after the 2010 World Championships. They're also changing the lane to a rectangle and adding the no-charge circle. Basically caving to the NBA.
- In addition to the Spanish basketball and tennis teams, I think it was the Argentinian women's soccer team that also did the slant-eyed pose.

[cartman]

Wait until all of the folks that did the slant-eyed pose find out that the Chinese played the final joke, and put pee-pee in their Coke.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

Yes, maybe the world's too sensitive. Yes, it's obvious that the players didn't mean any offense. It's just really interesting (and kind of funny) that they (apparently) didn't think this would be a big story in the over-sensitive US and UK press.

Do you think they really care about the US press? I don't know how they would feel about the UK press, but why should they care what we think? I don't think our athletes ever do anything with a thought about how it would play in the foreign press.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

What does it reveal about me that that I think the Spanish Basketball players were morons to take that picture?

Mostly that you are very racially sensitive...maybe enough to see offense where the "victims" do not.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

That's my point - they're ignorant. That doesn't mean they should be locked up or anything, but they're clueless.

Ignorant of how racially sensitive Americans are? That one I would give you.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Ignorant of how racially sensitive Americans are? That one I would give you.

I'm sure I could find news reports outside of the UK and US, if your point is that the rest of the world didn't care about this.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm sure I could find news reports outside of the UK and US, if your point is that the rest of the world didn't care about this.

I guess my point is that if Spain didn't care and China didn't care, why should we? Basically my thought is that we should mind our own business. If there aren't opposing sides, why create one?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Do you think they really care about the US press?

As far as the men's basketball team I would think at least four of the roster would, since they make their living in the U.S. And a fifth likely hopes to.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I guess my point is that if Spain didn't care and China didn't care, why should we? Basically my thought is that we should mind our own business. If there aren't opposing sides, why create one?

It seems your entire argument is predicated on the Chinese not being offended, yet every article I've seen on the China vs. Spain basketball game mentions the Chinese booing the Spanish anthem and booing everytime Spain touched the ball. And by most accounts, that was pretty much the only time during the Olympics the Chinese fans were blatantly booing a team/competitor.

[Chief Rum]

One thing people keep saying about China not being offended. Even if they were not (and that is there official stance), people here seem to be forgetting that the insult portrayed isn't a Chinese-specific insult. It is an insult to all people of Asian descent, which make up, what at least one third of the world's population, half of that not in China at all, and a very sizable portion in the United States.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by BrianD

I guess my point is that if Spain didn't care and China didn't care, why should we? Basically my thought is that we should mind our own business. If there aren't opposing sides, why create one?

IMO, you're not recognizing where the "opposite" side is. It doesn't have to be China.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

IMO, you're not recognizing where the "opposite" side is. It doesn't have to be China.

Right now I see the opposite side as people who believe someone else should be offended.

I keep trying to think of what the reaction would be if the picture was reversed. What happens if in the wake of the 2012 Olympics in London, the Chinese basketball team puts out a picture with them imitating the eye-shape of Londoners. Is that offensive too?

[molson]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Right now I see the opposite side as people who believe someone else should be offended.

I keep trying to think of what the reaction would be if the picture was reversed. What happens if in the wake of the 2012 Olympics in London, the Chinese basketball team puts out a picture with them imitating the eye-shape of Londoners. Is that offensive too?

Londoners haven't historically been mocked for the shape of their eyes.

I read an interesting article yesterday - someone showed the photo to native Chinese, none of whom even understood the gesture. They all thought they were pointing to their brains.

Then they showed the picture to those of Chinese decent in America and other places, and they recognized the photo as potentially "offensive". (Few actually cared that much in this small sample, but a few wondered what the Spainards were smoking, and a very small number were offended).

[MIJB#19]

The way this thread has gone shows perfectly why sports and politics don't mingle well.

Where were you guys when John Travolta was asked to play a woman!?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by MIJB#19

Where were you guys when John Travolta was asked to play a woman!?

Wait. John Travolta is a man?

[Young Drachma]

ESPN - First Afghan medalist Nikpai returns to hero's welcome - Olympics

-- Thousands of jubilant Afghans packed the national stadium to give the country's first Olympic medal winner Rohullah Nikpai a hero's welcome on Thursday.

President Hamid Karzai called Nikpai to congratulate him and has ordered a house to be presented to him as reward.

The head of a local welfare organization had promised rewards for Afghan medal winners, with $10,000 for the bronze.

Set for life. Awesome. Sometimes we forget how big a deal these sorts of things are in places where winning just one medal is a huge accomplishment. I'm guessing finding a wife won't be a problem at all for the young guy

[molson]

Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe wanted to do something similar for Kirsty Coventry, but in that nation's tradition of government shadiness, he just gave her a briefcase full of cash.

Forutunately for her, it was US dollars.

In 1980, $100,000 US = $ 147,000 Zimbabwe dollars.

Today, $100k US Dollars(and this isn't a joke) = $75,853,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwe dollars. Of course, with the current Zimbabwe inflation rate of 11,250,000% (also not a joke), that $100k is worth a lot more by the time you've read this sentence.

Mugabe hands Olympic medalist $100,000 cash reward - Yahoo! News

Zimbabwean dollar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's a lesson here for the political thread too....

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Hope this doesn't include Bolt, that would be a travesty.

he may lose a relay medal anyways though, even if it doesn't include him

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by molson

Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe wanted to do something similar for Kirsty Coventry, but in that nation's tradition of government shadiness, he just gave her a briefcase full of cash.

Forutunately for her, it was US dollars.

In 1980, $100,000 US = $ 147,000 Zimbabwe dollars.

Today, $100k US Dollars(and this isn't a joke) = $75,853,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwe dollars. Of course, with the current Zimbabwe inflation rate of 11,250,000% (also not a joke), that $100k is worth a lot more by the time you've read this sentence.

so wait - after converting to Zimbabwe currency he gave her a bagillion dollars for winning a medal?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by molson

Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe wanted to do something similar for Kirsty Coventry, but in that nation's tradition of government shadiness, he just gave her a briefcase full of cash.

Forutunately for her, it was US dollars.

In 1980, $100,000 US = $ 147,000 Zimbabwe dollars.

Today, $100k US Dollars(and this isn't a joke) = $75,853,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwe dollars. Of course, with the current Zimbabwe inflation rate of 11,250,000% (also not a joke), that $100k is worth a lot more by the time you've read this sentence.

Mugabe hands Olympic medalist $100,000 cash reward - Yahoo! News

Zimbabwean dollar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's a lesson here for the political thread too....

$100,000,000,000 Zimbabwe dollars = 3 eggs.

[SirFozzie]

So who had 9/2 for the first Jamaican Track team steroids scandal?

Two Jamaican hurdlers implicated in steroid ring - More Sports - SI.com

(only looks to be affecting the hurdlers right now)

[Buccaneer]

The cyclists learned their shit from the master dopers, the track and field runners.

[larrymcg421]

Cavic-Phelps rematch coming up in a few minutes on NBC.

Cavic is still claiming that he won in Beijing, and that American news orgs only showed photographs that the public wanted to see. He also claims to have proof that he beat Phelps, but when pressed on it, all he can say is he's seen a photograph that shows him touching while Phelps isn't.

I'm hoping Phelps wins, but I think Cavic beats him here.

[Logan]

Phelps wins by maybe a fingernail!

[larrymcg421]

Another great race between them, but it was pretty clear. Cavic won't be able to complain about this one.

[Scoobz0202]

That was fun to watch.

Thanks for the reminder.