Yet another school shooting.

[miami_fan]

I really need to do a self evaluation to figure out why I am not as fearful about things as I should be. I feel like we all should be shooting way more than we are due to fear of life.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Eh, based on what I saw on the video and below, I don't believe this was a justified shooting. Best thing would have been to call the cops and maybe followed the guy at a distance until the cops arrived.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-c...ce-video-shows

The bolded bit are the magic words that get 99.99% of police officers, on duty or off, acquitted in the rare event they have to face the music.

I think the only time I've seen it NOT work was when there was video evidence directly contradicting the officer's testimony in open court. And even then he was like "well maybe what I'm remembering is different than how it went down, but I'm not LYING. I just have a different memory of events than what the video shows."

He got convicted, but on lesser charges than what were filed, IIRC.

[BishopMVP]

It's a homeless felon within arms reach, with a hatchet in his hand, in the process of committing a crime? I would never confront that person in a million years because it's unnecessarily putting myself in danger, and the store owner should get some punishment for escalating the situation, but yeah I'd buy that he was fearful at the time.

[NobodyHere]

I'd just throw out there that I'm not exactly comfortable with a guy stealing a hatchet and I'm glad that he was confronted. I mean what are the odds that the guy uses the hatchet for firewood vs using the hatchet to split a guy's skull open?

[Edward64]

The damn US contagion is spreading.

Crimea shooting: NINETEEN people are killed in school massacre | Daily Mail Online

Nineteen people were killed and at least 40 were injured in a gun and bomb rampage at a school in Crimea today.

Vladislav Roslyakov, 18, stalked his college halls with a shotgun, shooting 17 dead and then killing himself in the school library. Another pupil died in hospital hours later as seven fight for their lives.

The teenager, who is thought to have obtained shotguns and rifles with a hunting licence, also set off a homemade nail-bomb in the canteen which blew out the windows but did not kill anyone, according to reports.

Pictures from the scene showed the shooter's bag filled with what appeared to be ten homemade bombs and dozens of shotgun rounds.

The boy's father, who has separated from his mother, was tonight taken into custody for questioning as police tried to work out a motive for the attack and both parents' homes were searched. Friends said the fourth-year pupil 'hated his studies and vowed revenge on his teachers'.

[Ksyrup]

Very possible we narrowly avoided a school shooting close to home. Anderson County is the next county over from me and about 30 minutes west of Lexington.

KSP: Suspect Was In Possession Of 100-Round Capacity Magazine, Kevlar Vest | LEX18.com

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Very possible we narrowly avoided a school shooting close to home. Anderson County is the next county over from me and about 30 minutes west of Lexington.

KSP: Suspect Was In Possession Of 100-Round Capacity Magazine, Kevlar Vest | LEX18.com

Do you know what kind of sentence those crimes carry?

[Ksyrup]

Probably not enough.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Eh, based on what I saw on the video and below, I don't believe this was a justified shooting. Best thing would have been to call the cops and maybe followed the guy at a distance until the cops arrived.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-c...ce-video-shows

An update. I agree with the decision.

After the shooting, Dunn told detectives he acted out of fear. Lopez was carrying the ax but he was holding its blade in the palm of his hand, a probable cause affidavit says.

Florida State Attorney Brian Haas said during a press conference on Friday that he believes Dunn's actions were not justified under Florida's "stand your ground" law.

Dunn's attorney Rusty Franklin told CNN affiliate WFLA that he believes his client acted in self-defense.

"There was a video, it clearly shows that the shoplifter was wielding an ax," Franklin told WFLA. "He had no choice, but to protect himself, and that's what we hope that this trial will prove."
:
"At no time did the victim appear to have made any threatening movements towards the suspect," the affidavit states.

Witnesses told police that Lopez did not verbally threaten Dunn.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Very possible we narrowly avoided a school shooting close to home. Anderson County is the next county over from me and about 30 minutes west of Lexington.

KSP: Suspect Was In Possession Of 100-Round Capacity Magazine, Kevlar Vest | LEX18.com

As a follow-up on this, locally it's gotten a fair amount of coverage as you would expect, but the circumstances are now making the national rounds. This guy randomly messaged some woman in NJ with racist comments about her kids, and she had a gut feeling something wasn't right, so she called KSP which lead to him being arrested as he was pulling out of his driveway armed for a school shooting. You can literally see the local high school from his house.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-jerse...ng-in-kentucky

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

As a follow-up on this, locally it's gotten a fair amount of coverage as you would expect, but the circumstances are now making the national rounds. This guy randomly messaged some woman in NJ with racist comments about her kids, and she had a gut feeling something wasn't right, so she called KSP which lead to him being arrested as he was pulling out of his driveway armed for a school shooting. You can literally see the local high school from his house.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-jerse...ng-in-kentucky

Wow, I didn't hear about this one. Hard to swallow, but KY does have a special breed here.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

As a follow-up on this, locally it's gotten a fair amount of coverage as you would expect, but the circumstances are now making the national rounds. This guy randomly messaged some woman in NJ with racist comments about her kids, and she had a gut feeling something wasn't right, so she called KSP which lead to him being arrested as he was pulling out of his driveway armed for a school shooting. You can literally see the local high school from his house.


https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-jerse...ng-in-kentucky

Thank God she made that call.

This member of the heavily armed well-regulated militia still has his Facebook page up and it's equally creepy. Photos of the Columbine shooters and Timothy McVeigh.

[Edward64]

Definitely scary what could have happened.

[RainMaker]

That Kroger shooting seems racially motivated and could have been worse. He tried to shoot up a church.

You'll also notice that his background involves violence against women. A common theme in almost every mass shooter.

'Whites don't shoot whites,' suspected gunman told man after killing 2 black customers at Kentucky Kroger - Chicago Tribune

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/26/us/ke...ing/index.html

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

That Kroger shooting seems racially motivated and could have been worse. He tried to shoot up a church.

You'll also notice that his background involves violence against women. A common theme in almost every mass shooter.

'Whites don't shoot whites,' suspected gunman told man after killing 2 black customers at Kentucky Kroger - Chicago Tribune

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/26/us/ke...ing/index.html

Be careful bringing race into this case.

[RainMaker]

Why? The feds are investigating it as a hate crime.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

'Whites don't shoot whites,' suspected gunman told man after killing 2 black customers at Kentucky Kroger - Chicago Tribune

I didn't read the story but most murders in this country are intraracial.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Why? The feds are investigating it as a hate crime.

See above post.

[miami_fan]

Active shooter situation confirmed at Pittsburgh Synagogue.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Active shooter situation confirmed at Pittsburgh Synagogue.

"All these Jews need to die," suspect tells police on scene at Pittsburgh synagogue shooting.

— Steve Herman (@W7VOA) October 27, 2018

[stevew]

Squirrel Hill is nice, not where you'd expect that type of thing...other than if you wanted to target Jews

[stevew]

Dola- I Uber that block/region all the time. Crazy

[JPhillips]

Trump is so bad at the easy part of the job. He can't provide any comfort.

"To see this happening again and again and again, it's just a shame," he says.

He's asked if there's anything that can be done.

"Look at the violence all over the world. The world is violent. The world is a violent world."

[larrymcg421]

And he's already moved on to victim blaming by saying they should've been armed inside the synagogue. Fuck this guy and everybody who supports him or tries to gaslight with "both sides" nonsense.

[Ksyrup]

No better outcome to all of this than to ensure we have armed guards at our schools and churches. Perfect solution. Very comforting as well. Its like a win/win!

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

And he's already moved on to victim blaming by saying they should've been armed inside the synagogue. Fuck this guy and everybody who supports him or tries to gaslight with "both sides" nonsense.

He really is one of the most ignorant motherfuckers that has ever walked the earth. Pistol packing nuns, teachers and cocktail waitresses are the future of controlling gun violence, yep that's it.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Fuck this guy and everybody who supports him or tries to gaslight with "both sides" nonsense.

Which is pretty much how those of us with working brains feel about the collection of fools opposing him, particularly when he's stating such simple & obvious truths like you quoted.

But since you're spouting liberal lunacy I figure you can say whatever you want here & there's nobody going to touch you for it.

[stevew]

How long until we find out this fucktwat had a history of beating women, supporting white nationalist groups and or was dishonorably discharged.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

And he's already moved on to victim blaming by saying they should've been armed inside the synagogue. Fuck this guy and everybody who supports him or tries to gaslight with "both sides" nonsense.

There are 350000 or so religious congregations in the United States. Let's say you could figure out a way to cover every service with one guard per congregation, so 350000 armed, trained security guards. There are less than 670000 police officers in the United States. Where are these people coming from? And don't forget that you need multiple guards for each of the 130000 or so schools in the United States. This idea is going to need at least a million new armed, trained guards.

I'm an elder in my church, so I know our budget problems well, and we're very similar to tens of thousands of other congregations. Let's say we can find a part-time guard for every service at the incredibly reasonable cost of 10000 a year. That would mean we end our local and global mission work and put all that money and more towards a security guard. Not only would we feel like a bunker, we'd basically be that as our connection to the rest of the world would completely end.

Even if you accept the very problematic issue of worshipping in an armed environment, the practical realities make this and arming school guards terrible ideas.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

He really is one of the most ignorant motherfuckers that has ever walked the earth. Pistol packing nuns, teachers and cocktail waitresses are the future of controlling gun violence, yep that's it.

Why stop there, I think the students need to be armed. They completely outnumber the teachers, and when a gunman comes in and there's 20 guns pointed at him he will really think twice!

Hmm, so for safety in our free society, we need to have armed guards everywhere for every situation. For our safety, of course.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Which is pretty much how those of us with working brains feel about the collection of fools opposing him, particularly when he's stating such simple & obvious truths like you quoted.

But since you're spouting liberal lunacy I figure you can say whatever you want here & there's nobody going to touch you for it.

Murica ! Moooore Guns. Hope your ancestors get to live in a society more in tune with common sense. Maybe they'll even experience a year where you only have twice the rate of gun violence as the rest of the western world, rather than 5 times as many while still thinking the solution is somehow more guns and those choosing not to add them to the equation are the idiots.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

He really is one of the most ignorant motherfuckers that has ever walked the earth. Pistol packing nuns, teachers and cocktail waitresses are the future of controlling gun violence, yep that's it.

Dude, that's exactly how the Rest of the Western World doe... wait, no. They regulate gun ownership beyond a token 'effort'. Sorry, it is a confusing topic. Also, a friend of mine is basically done with a 150 page dissertation on making a rock solid comparison between Trumps rhetoric and those of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin and other enlightened great leaders. Main problem is cutting it to 150.

In the hopes it gets through to at least one person, my usually attempt at offering a synopsis i find easy to grasp:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...cs-maps-charts

[MrBug708]

The Jewish religion/country seems to have a unique set of hatred. Far right wingers hate them because they "control" everything. The far left hates them because they are anti-zionist over the whole middle east homeland thing. We don't have a big Jewish population where I live, so the hatred seems pretty minor as something in the forefront, though we had a huge shooting back in 99 on the other side of LA. Most conservative churches tend to still come out in support of Jews and Isreal because of the whole God's Chosen People dogma.

[Edward64]

I didn't watch his speech/comment but if the below is accurate and there is no more context, I don't see it as blaming the victims.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/27/polit...rgh/index.html

President Donald Trump said Saturday that the outcome of the deadly shooting at a Pittsburgh synagogue would have been different had an armed guard been in place.

"If there was an armed guard inside the temple, they would have been able to stop him," he said to reporters before boarding a flight to a pair of events later in the afternoon.

There are multiple fatalities in the shooting, and at least six people are injured, including four police officers, Pittsburgh Public Safety Director Wendell Hissrich said.

Trump also said the nation should strengthen its laws surrounding the death penalty.

"When people do this, they should get the death penalty," he said. "Anybody that does a thing like this to innocent people that are in temple or in church ... they should be suffering the ultimate price, they should pay the ultimate price."

When asked if the shooting indicated a need to revisit gun laws, Trump replied that the shooting "has little to do with it" and that an armed guard might have been able to stop the gunman "immediately."

Asked if he was advocating for armed guards inside if places of worship, Trump replied, "no, it's certainly an option."

Michael Eisenberg, the immediate past president of Tree of Life Congregation Synagogue, told CNN affiliate WPXI that on the high holidays, there is a police presence. But not on this Saturday.

"On a day like today, the door is open," he said. "It's a religious service, you could walk in and out."

If he said "there should have been an armed guard inside the temple .." then yeah, I can see that as blaming them.

[Edward64]

Apparently he got the weapons legally.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/27/us/sy...ile/index.html

Bowers has an active license and has made at least six known firearm purchases since 1996, a law enforcement official familiar with the investigation said. On September 29, Bowers posted photos of his handgun collection on his Gab.com account, which included multiple clips and sights. A rifle and three handguns were found on the scene of the attack, the FBI said.

Hates Jews and migrants/refugees etc.

On his Gab.com account, Bowers claimed Jews were helping transport members of the migrant caravans. He shared a video that another Gab.com user posted, purportedly of a Jewish refugee advocacy group HIAS on the US-Mexico border. Another post that Bowers commented on described HIAS' overall efforts as "sugar-coated evil."

And apparently, not a Trump supporter.

Roughly four hours before the shooting, Bowers commented in a post that he did not vote for Trump.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

There are 350000 or so religious congregations in the United States. Let's say you could figure out a way to cover every service with one guard per congregation, so 350000 armed, trained security guards. There are less than 670000 police officers in the United States. Where are these people coming from? And don't forget that you need multiple guards for each of the 130000 or so schools in the United States. This idea is going to need at least a million new armed, trained guards.

I'm an elder in my church, so I know our budget problems well, and we're very similar to tens of thousands of other congregations. Let's say we can find a part-time guard for every service at the incredibly reasonable cost of 10000 a year. That would mean we end our local and global mission work and put all that money and more towards a security guard. Not only would we feel like a bunker, we'd basically be that as our connection to the rest of the world would completely end.

Even if you accept the very problematic issue of worshipping in an armed environment, the practical realities make this and arming school guards terrible ideas.

I'm willing to bet most protestant churches in TX (and other gun friendly states) already have armed guards free of charge.

Would you consider asking some in your congregation (former vets with no PTSD, former cops etc.) to do conceal carry and be that "last line of defense"?

I would guess not and would then ask why would an equally "religious, moral, ethical" pastor in TX allow it? Interesting question to consider the differences in POV.

[miami_fan]

How soon we forget...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/05/u...ing-texas.html

[Edward64]

Just responding to JPhillips and a possible answer to his budget issue.

Yeah, too bad the law-abiding neighbors weren't attending church but were close by to stop him from doing more damage.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

He really is one of the most ignorant motherfuckers that has ever walked the earth. Pistol packing nuns, teachers and cocktail waitresses are the future of controlling gun violence, yep that's it.

He and many of his supporters. I have already seen posts blaming video games (that's a lazy argument), liberal conspiracy (the bombs first and now this), the victims who somehow were asking for it (I blocked that idiot on FB after reading that) and ,in what seems like some of the worst logic ever, too much gun control.

[molson]

How do you guys have such horrible facebook friends?

I think one of the reasons I used to not quite realize the depth of Trump's base and how influential they were is that I just never saw them in real life. I have maybe 400 facebook friends - and zero public Trump supporters. Zero. There's 3-4 people that pass around lazy conservative memes once in a while, but they aren't really the super-hateful versions.

I live in one of the reddest states in the country, and I do see some Trump bumper stickers and flags around election time, but, I have nothing to do with these people. I work in state government, surrounded by Republicans (I assume), and I've never heard a single positive word about Trump. Not one. I'm sure some of them voted for him, but they would never admit it. And while we don't really talk politics, I hear plenty of vague comments about the state of the Trump presidency generally as like a "who the fuck knows what's going to happen next" kind of thing.

It's not that I specifically pick my facebook friends and people I hang out with at work based on politics - it's just kind of what my background and lifestyle is, I don't cross paths with these kinds of people. And I shoot guns in the desert for fun sometimes. But among every social and professional informal group I'm a part of, if someone said the slightest racist Trump-rhetoric kind of stuff - it just wouldn't fly, it just could never happen. It's been a revelation to me how much people hear this kind of stuff in their lives and on social media from people they know.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Just responding to JPhillips and a possible answer to his budget issue.

Yeah, too bad the law-abiding neighbors weren't attending church but were close by to stop him from doing more damage.

The point was twofold. First it was an example of a Protestant church that did not have armed guards free of charge. I am sure they have their reasons for not having one budgetary or otherwise.

Second is that as far we know, the shooter today WAS a law abiding citizen right up until the time the bullets flew today. You did the research. He obtained all of his weapons legally. Yes, he spewed hate speech but let's be honest, we don't take that sort of stuff seriously anyways. He was the quintessential "good guy with a gun" right up until he wasn't. He is the guy who was armed free of charge!

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

The point was twofold. First it was an example of a Protestant church that did not have armed guards free of charge. I am sure they have their reasons for not having one budgetary or otherwise.

When I said free of charge, I meant some congregation members would likely be carrying.

We don't actually know if there were carry people in the church who was not able to stop the gunman (googled and did not find it). If your point is that even if there was, it was obviously ineffective, you would be right. I would still prefer someone carrying as a last line of defense vs not (same goes for schools). Please note, there are some on the board that thinks this means forcing teachers who are uncomfortable to carry and that is not what I am advocating.

(My wife is a teacher, she and I talked and there admin/teachers who are obviously not geared to use weapons. However, there are some who grew up comfortable with weapons and if they go through training, background checks etc. I am all for it. BTW - in my county, there are armed resource officers in our schools, its not viewed as abnormal and majority of teachers welcome it. Admittedly we are in a wealthier county).

Re: protestant church and arm guards in congregation.

I did try to google on statistics/surveys but did not find any. So you are right that I cannot prove there most protestant churches in TX would have congregation members carry weapons. There is no law against it in TX (open but not concealed carry I think) and, knowing the stereotypical Texan, I would say it is likely.

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Second is that as far we know, the shooter today WAS a law abiding citizen right up until the time the bullets flew today. You did the research. He obtained all of his weapons legally. Yes, he spewed hate speech but let's be honest, we don't take that sort of stuff seriously anyways. He was the quintessential "good guy with a gun" right up until he wasn't. He is the guy who was armed free of charge!

You are right, so far he seems to be law abiding and no mental health that was obvious and was not on anyone's radar.

I'm all for more gun control. I'm just not for being too restrictive (devil is in the details). I had another post that talked about my position on increased gun control including compulsory real training, background checks, closing gun show loopholes, tracking transfer of weapons etc.

What is your solution? Are you more in the camp of increased gun control or more get rid of most guns?

[RainMaker]

Four cops were shot in this so it's not like just having a guy with a gun around will save the day. In fact, most of the school shootings have armed guards.

But maybe we need to have multiple heavily armed guards at every bris and baptism in this country. Totally normal thing to do for a totally normal country.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You are right, so far he seems to be law abiding and no mental health that was obvious and was not on anyone's radar.

He should have been on someone's radar. Pretty openly bragged about his weaponry and desire to murder Jews. But we cut funding into investigating right-wing extremists who commit most of the terror attacks in this country. So much for "law and order".

Then again, maybe he doesn't stand out as an extremist anymore. The right has been pushing the anti-semitic stuff for awhile. Fox News was running the ZOG conspiracy theory hard today (and has been for awhile). The President himself has a history of saying things tinged with anti-semitism. There's a Congressman who is an open neo-Nazi.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Four cops were shot in this so it's not like just having a guy with a gun around will save the day. In fact, most of the school shootings have armed guards.

But maybe we need to have multiple heavily armed guards at every bris and baptism in this country. Totally normal thing to do for a totally normal country.

I get your point, congregation members having weapons would not stop all shootings. And in many cases, an open pistol carry would stand little chance against a determined intruder carrying semi-automatic weapon and bullet proof vest (like in Texas Church shooting).

I just don't get why one would be against this "last line of defense"? I would take it over not having one.

Same question I posed to miami_fan - What is your solution? Are you more in the camp of increased gun control or more get rid of most guns?

[JPhillips]

I find an attitude of, I may kill someone today, to be antithetical to Christian teaching, but I'll freely admit that I'm not sure I can justify any killing based on the Gospels.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I find an attitude of, I may kill someone today, to be antithetical to Christian teaching, but I'll freely admit that I'm not sure I can justify any killing based on the Gospels.

I'll go with an extreme scenario - if you had a gun in hand and could kill someone that was going to kill your family (ala Purge movies, great entertainment BTW), you would not do it?

There is no doubt I would do my best to kill that person.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I get your point, congregation members having weapons would not stop all shootings. And in many cases, an open pistol carry would stand little chance against a determined intruder carrying semi-automatic weapon and bullet proof vest (like in Texas Church shooting).

I just don't get why one would be against this "last line of defense"? I would take it over not having one.

Same question I posed to miami_fan - What is your solution? Are you more in the camp of increased gun control or more get rid of most guns?

I don't know the solution. Just pointing out how fucked up this country is that the solution is a heavily armed security force to keep watch out while your child gets baptized.

For what it's worth, it's probably not a bad solution for synagogues these days. Or black churches, mosques, Sikh temples, etc. They've become targets by terrorists lately and the government is not interested in stopping terrorists of that ideology.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

What is your solution? Are you more in the camp of increased gun control or more get rid of most guns?

Solution for what?

I have no solution for someone who legally obtains his weapons and walks into a synagogue and starts blowing people away.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'll go with an extreme scenario - if you had a gun in hand and could kill someone that was going to kill your family (ala Purge movies, great entertainment BTW), you would not do it?

There is no doubt I would do my best to kill that person.

You do realize that this was the exact rational for the killer today right? You read his social media tweet about "his people" that happened five minutes before he began the slaughter, right?