06-27-2018, 05:53 PM | #10751 |
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... that pales in comparison to surrendering a nation to invaders.
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06-27-2018, 05:55 PM | #10752 |
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We can't equally enforce every law, time and resources are finite. Given that, where should we put our focus? As a society we've pretty clearly decided to let crimes by the powerful merit less enforcement than crimes by the powerless. Any discussion about, "enforcing the laws" has to come to grips with these realities.
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06-27-2018, 05:56 PM | #10753 | |
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Quote:
You know the old saying, Kidnap a kid and go to jail, kidnap 2000 kids and eat a nice meal undisturbed.
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06-27-2018, 06:05 PM | #10754 | |
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Quote:
You seemed to be stating that the immigration laws already existed and 'required' the current implementation (which isn't the case or previous governments both Democrat and Republican would have done all that this administration is) because its 'law' - so my rebuttal was simply ... 'why for this law when we don't for others'. I see the stance you're taking as akin to straight Christians pointing at Gay people and shouting 'sinner' because its a sin they won't commit and as such totally untenable ... while sins they might commit (gluttony, lying etc.) are seen as lesser in their eyes. |
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06-27-2018, 06:09 PM | #10755 | |||||
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Yes, programs for children are available. We made the decision that children have no say in the manner and should be supported regardless. The vast majority of government programs are not available. As for the emergency room loophole, that was signed into law by a conservative icon and any attempts to change it have been fought by the same party. The anti-immigration can't exactly blame the loophole they fought to keep in place. Quote:
You can look up the tax rates and say definitively. Quote:
Every single one of us would do the same thing if it meant a better life for our family. I mean aren't you the guy who has 8 guns stashed in his home for his family's safety? You wouldn't do that for your kids? Quote:
I'm not blaming the companies for following the law. I'm blaming politicians for allowing avoidance to occur and be so easy. I'm blaming people who want to fellate a CEO at their own expense when that CEO would slit their throats for an extra nickel on their share price. Quote:
Yeah I wonder why. Last edited by RainMaker : 06-27-2018 at 06:09 PM. |
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06-27-2018, 06:11 PM | #10756 | |
SI Games
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Quote:
Historically if you look into economics taxation of the rich or corporations is in no way an impediment to their existence or whether they flourish, in fact high taxation actually can be argued to encourage growth because it tends to be reinvested in the citizens of a country and drive higher levels of education, productivity and income. Right wing politicians (in all countries I've lived in) pedal the concept that the rich and corporations would flee if they were taxed more - this is simply their way of trying to bully people into a corner. With regards to US companies think about it logically - they will still need to function and sell products within the US, so they aren't going anywhere so long as they're profitable they'll stay and contribute. If you don't enforce corporations paying tax and giving back to society you end up unable to provide basic services for your country such as infrastructure, medical provision and education ... hmmm sounds familiar? |
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06-27-2018, 06:31 PM | #10757 | |||
Head Coach
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Quote:
This I disagree with. Sure if it was a ISIL terrorist, a hispanic/latino drug/criminal go ahead and toss away the key. The typical illegal should be treated with a basic level of dignity (which is yet to be defined well but you get the idea). Quote:
I agree that tax avoidance should not be included in this discussion, its legal and helps many regular people. Tax Avoidance
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06-27-2018, 07:01 PM | #10758 | ||
Head Coach
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Quote:
I'm not sure I understand the first part of the first paragraph of "required the current implementation". All I am saying is immigration laws exist, enforce them. If you don't like the laws, change them through the process. You can't have people flaunt the laws. Which I think leads to the second half of the first paragraph "why for this and not another". The examples you provided were of LEO's using their discretion or giving a pass. I don't think those examples rise to the same level of "degree/equivalence/whatever". RM then tossed out financial fraud, tax evasion and tax avoidance (I don't agree avoidance should be on the list) as examples he thinks rises to the same level of "degree/equivalence/whatever". Quote:
I see this analogy. But not all sins are equivalent or even close to being equivalent. Using an extreme counter example of your Christian-Gay, is killing someone the same as lying on your taxes? There has to be some consideration of whether or not its the same level of "degree/equivalence/whatever". I do appreciate our civil debate. I think we are expressing our differences pretty well. Last edited by Edward64 : 06-27-2018 at 07:08 PM. |
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06-27-2018, 07:19 PM | #10759 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Quote:
When I'm talking about tax avoidance, I'm not talking about your IRA. I'm talking about an American company that operates in America hoarding all their earnings in Costa Rica so they don't have to pay taxes here. Or the guy who creates a dozen shell companies to hide his investments in Panama. Change the laws to embody the spirit of them. Deferring taxes on retirement or health care is done to help people with important parts of their life (retirement, health). The other is abusing a loophole to not pay taxes into the country you benefit greatly from. |
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06-27-2018, 07:53 PM | #10760 | |
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Quote:
As has every soceity (authoritarian, socialist, communist, monarchy, totalitarian, republic... ) in the history of the world. How is this unique to the United States? How is this unique to Donald Trump's presidency? Please cite me some examples of places where the rich aren't treated different? 1800s France? I mean I completely agree it isn't right or fair but it's pretty dumb when people act like this started in 2016. Think Carnegie wasn't playing by different rules? Were the rich going down during Obama's time in office? The impoverished farmer in 1850 had the same treatment as the wealthy tycoon? |
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06-27-2018, 07:57 PM | #10761 |
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That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that claiming to just, "enforce the law" is a problem because we make choices as to how we enforce the law based on time, resources, manpower, whims, money, political power, etc. Saying we're just enforcing the law in regards to immigration is making a choice to put our efforts there rather than to put those efforts towards something else. It isn't neutral.
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06-27-2018, 07:59 PM | #10762 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
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Quote:
And what I am saying is there is a strong narrative that somehow Donald Trump began a new era of lawlessness for the rich and powerful like the rich and powerful haven't been in control of everything for the entire history of the world. |
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06-27-2018, 08:03 PM | #10763 | ||||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Quote:
I wanted to find out the "degree" of the M&A impact. I found the below link http://people.stern.nyu.edu/msubrahm/papers/M&A.pdf If you go to pg 45, Illicit Profits vs Fines 1990-2013, it seems as if Fines are doing better than Illicit Profits. It looks as if the SEC (or whoever) is doing a pretty good job. Quote:
I agree. The mortgage companies and the investment banks definitely contributed but I don't see you blame the "people" that took the ninja-and-like loans. They have blame here too. Quote:
Absolutely agree with the last sentence. I'm not sure about your "SEC .. told to back down". Quote:
Avoidance is not just big corporations, its you and me also. Its legal. However, I did not find any data on $ benefit to corporations vs people. For Evasion, I found this wiki page with some stats. It only goes up to 2010. I did try looking for more recent data but I didn't find it. Tax evasion in the United States - Wikipedia Revenue lost increased steadily from 2001 to 2006-07 and then decreased to 2010 (latest year with data). If we extrapolate this (and not sure if we can but this is the only data I found), this would indicate the government is doing a better job at tax evasion since 2006-07. ***** I think the discussion we are having here is why "The US seems to want to enforce the immigration laws but not some other laws/regulations that you believe rises to same level of degree/equivalence". I believe you've proposed financial fraud, tax evasion, and tax avoidance as your examples. I think $ wise, I can believe the financial fraud, tax evasion exceeds the illegal immigration impact. However, per my 2 links (admittedly not a holistic view), we are doing something about financial fraud (M&A) & tax evasion already, the laws are being enforced, maybe not as well as we would like it, but its happening somewhat decently. , Last edited by Edward64 : 06-27-2018 at 08:11 PM. |
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06-27-2018, 08:19 PM | #10764 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Quote:
I've seen bits-and-pieces that you may infer was being blamed on Trump in our discussion but, to be fair, his name hasn't come up alot. The debate is about illegal immigration. I and some others are saying "There are immigration laws, enforce them. If you don't like the laws, change or reform them through the process. But you can't flaunt the law". The come-back was "Why enforce the immigration laws when other laws aren't being enforced like financial fraud, tax evasion, tax avoidance"? I think this is was the context of JPhillips comment, it wasn't specific to Trump's era. FWIW, I did a quick analysis on "why not" question and just posted my reply above. Hope this helps. If you already knew this, apologies for butting in. Last edited by Edward64 : 06-27-2018 at 08:19 PM. |
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06-27-2018, 08:20 PM | #10765 |
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I've kind of dropped off this thread in the last week. I've been a little busy with other things, but today and the last few days are the exact thing I saw coming pre-election and the single most demoralizing thing of this administration and the post-election results.
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06-27-2018, 08:22 PM | #10766 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
Has anyone made that argument? We had a recession during Obama's presidency largely because of the lawlessness for the rich. I don't think anyone has forgotten and, unless I missed something, that hasn't been suggested here either. |
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06-27-2018, 08:29 PM | #10767 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Backwoods, SC
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Quote:
Of course not. Here is what so many miss. You can not tax a company without taxing the poor. Period. Tax the largest corporation you can name, triple their tax. You know what happens they raise their price to offset lost profits. Either consumers pay more for their goods, or their business declines and they lay off workers, usually at the lowest and mid levels. Who gets hurt the worst? Unintended consequences and all that. |
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06-27-2018, 08:29 PM | #10768 | |||
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Quote:
That's when they are caught. It shows that action is taken against persons at a much lower rate (8%). You're still more likely than not to get away with it. And this data doesn't take into account the drop in SEC enforcement over the past year. Quote:
Sure. But they didn't commit fraud. Quote:
We're talking about different things. Your IRA, health savings, etc were set up by the government to help people. It is something the government wants you to do because they see it as a benefit to the country. Setting up holding companies in Bermuda to funnel your money through is not something the government set up because they felt it would benefit the country. It was a loophole that good tax attorneys found. It is a detriment to the country and should be fixed. I don't know how you can defend that. |
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06-27-2018, 08:36 PM | #10769 | |
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Quote:
If this were the case, why didn't prices drop 15% after the recent corporate tax cut? Walmart can't triple their prices because their competitors won't and will crush them. Competition is what stops companies from charging whatever they want. For what it's worth I'm fine with eliminating the corporate tax (well a small tax on holdings to prevent hoarding) if capital gains is taxed the same as income as it should be. |
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06-27-2018, 08:38 PM | #10770 | |
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Quote:
No one is saying that. In fact, I think most people would argue that this has been something taking place over the last few decades. I mean I was part of the Google antitrust investigation and can tell you the only reason they weren't broken up is because the Obama administration was bought and paid for by them. I think you're seeing more talk of it because the Trump administration has eliminated a lot of the regulations and has cut back drastically on enforcement. But I think most of us agree that both parties are in the tank. |
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06-27-2018, 08:43 PM | #10771 | |
Head Coach
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Quote:
Do you have any information on the total $ that is lost vs recovered/fine? The chart shows $1.5 illicit vs $5.1 fined so there is alot of cushion for my point. Otherwise, is it as simple as the the 25% total of all M&A deals minus the 8.3% and extrapolating the $? e.g. 1,859 deals x 25% = 465 suspected of insider tradingThat's how I'm trying to gauge the scale of the problem. Last edited by Edward64 : 06-27-2018 at 08:45 PM. |
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06-27-2018, 08:46 PM | #10772 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
Taxes were higher under Obama than Bush yet under Obama we had 5% growth in inflation adjusted income for the median American household while it went down 4% under Bush. |
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06-27-2018, 08:46 PM | #10773 | |
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Quote:
I don't know what to tell you. I neither believe that or have said that.
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06-27-2018, 08:55 PM | #10774 | |
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Quote:
A better type of people. Perhaps a master race.
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06-27-2018, 09:01 PM | #10775 |
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This didn't get the kind of attention I thought it should. Not really Trump related as it seems like a program that's been going on for awhile. Kind of a scary and makes me want to encrypt everything.
The NSA’s Hidden Spy Hubs in Eight U.S. Cities |
06-27-2018, 09:02 PM | #10776 | ||
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Let me say that I certainly do believe there was a bunch of high pressure tactics. But regular people contributed to the problem. They share in the blame. Was it 50-50, 70-30, I don't really know but your comment was all "banks and financial institutions" and implied it was all their fault which I didn't think was fair. Quote:
I see that now but it wasn't clear at the beginning. Quote:
Nope, I agree for the most and we should fix it. I've worked for US based multi-nationals that was based in Bermuda and I thought that was "un-patriotic" but it was legal. I tried to research the delta between the benefit $ of tax avoidance for the corporations vs benefit $ tax avoidance for regular people, this was to try understand who benefited more in today's tax laws re: tax avoidance. I did not find the answer. Ultimately, I believe this point is moot for our immigration debate as its currently "legal". Last edited by Edward64 : 06-28-2018 at 05:35 AM. |
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06-27-2018, 09:22 PM | #10777 | |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2005
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No idea if he is right but if it happens this will tear country apart.
CNN's Jeffrey Toobin: ‘No Doubt’ Abortion Will Be Illegal In 20 States In 18 Months | HuffPost Quote:
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06-27-2018, 09:36 PM | #10778 | |
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Quote:
That should be in commercials all over the country.
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06-27-2018, 09:38 PM | #10779 |
Head Coach
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It's kind of what they've been aiming for all along?
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06-27-2018, 09:57 PM | #10780 |
Hall Of Famer
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Roberts might not go with it. His wife is a nutter but he has spoken in the past about precedent and a resistance to change that.
I don't know if it would be as big a deal as people are making it out to be. A lot of those states already make abortion really hard. And I think it would neuter the pro-life movement a bit as they can't use abortion as the excuse to legislate sex. I do wonder if this would bring in more voters from the left. The Pro-Life movement is much more passionate and vote on the issue. I don't think the Pro-Choice side is as fervent perhaps because it is legal. I wonder if that change would bring people out of the woodwork to vote. We would join some dubious countries though. |
06-27-2018, 10:05 PM | #10781 | |
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Just so we don't forget, none of this is really disputed:
Quote:
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06-27-2018, 10:10 PM | #10782 |
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06-27-2018, 10:40 PM | #10783 | |
Head Coach
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Quote:
Yea but since a million things happen every day with this idiot those pardons feel like ages ago and by now a lot of people are desensitized to the circus.
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06-27-2018, 10:52 PM | #10784 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
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If a state legislature bans abortion tonight and someone is charged with felony abortion tomorrow it wouldn't be in front of the United States Supreme Court in the next 18 months.
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06-28-2018, 03:03 AM | #10785 | |||
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: May 2006
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Quote:
If anyone knows a better way to run a civilization than the rule of law, I'm open to it. Until then though, my understanding of history leads me to view it like that famous line about democracy being the worst form of government except for all the others. There's a lot of things that aren't good about our justice system, but I've yet to see a remotely palatable alternative. Quote:
Multiple people responded to me with similar thoughts. I really don't know how I make myself clearer. I will try once more to say the same thing I've already said multiple times: ** I'm not against immigration. I'm for it. I think we should have more of it. Legally. ** What prompted my entry into this foray was the declaration by multiple people that the fact that immigrants are entering illegally was basically a non-consideration. IMO it is the biggest consideration, by far, because of what it does to the rule of law when basics like this are ignored. I was making a point about the tragedy of increasing disregard for the rule of law. Quote:
This is going around a lot as well. Totally agree that we shouldn't be ignoring other crimes, although I do think those which affect a nation's borders/relations with other countries rightfully should take on somewhat increased significance. To the point that we don't have enough money to enforce everything, there are multiple solutions to that. Funding is one. Simplifying the laws we have/eliminating offenses we have no intention of enforcing is another. Ignoring entire categories as we regularly do now(again immigration is only one of them) is among the worst possible imaginable ways of dealing with that situation. |
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06-28-2018, 03:04 AM | #10786 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: May 2006
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On the SCOTUS thing, I think the Democrats should do what they should have done last time. Refuse to consider anyone not named Merrick Garland. Offer to go back to 'normal' once the rightful nominee has been put up. I don't want Garland on the court, but that's a much better solution than continuing to disregard Constitutional imperatives.
Last edited by Brian Swartz : 06-28-2018 at 03:05 AM. |
06-28-2018, 05:47 AM | #10787 | ||
Head Coach
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Quote:
Quote:
I think you summed up the two main points of contention pretty well. Last edited by Edward64 : 06-28-2018 at 05:48 AM. |
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06-28-2018, 08:11 AM | #10788 | |
SI Games
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Melbourne, FL
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Quote:
I agree the rich play by different rules and I don't accept that as a 'given' myself - I'd like to see the playing field leveled and this changed so that they are forced to pay taxes (ditto corporations) and to obey the same laws that the less well off have to. |
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06-28-2018, 08:17 AM | #10789 | |
SI Games
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Quote:
I'm not against preventing illegal immigration myself however ... (1) I object to this administration treating asylum seeks as illegal immigrants in flagrant violation of US laws (i.e. falsely indicating they have to go through ports of entry to be considered for asylum etc.). (2) I object to this administration using inhumane treatment of immigrants (illegal or asylum seekers) in order to try and deter immigrants (ie. splitting children from families etc.). (3) I object to this administration indicating that the majority of immigrants are criminals and such when in reality they commit crimes at a lower rate than actual citizens of the country. (4) The reality of the situation is that there are far fewer illegal immigrants coming into the US than in previous years (especially if you go back to say 2000) and this 'crisis' doesn't exist ... its purely a distraction used by Trump to pump up the voting public. The linked graph shows how pre-2005 yes the illegal immigrant population was growing but since its been very static even while the US population itself has expanded - • Unauthorized immigrant population U.S. 1990-2014 | Statistic |
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06-28-2018, 08:51 AM | #10790 |
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Trump today went back to, Russia said they didn't do it. I wish I believed the Dems had a plan on how to deal with a new round of Russian interference this fall.
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06-28-2018, 09:51 AM | #10791 |
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Funny seeing the trolls on twitter mention the Dems can’t call for a delay in the SCOTUS nomination because they were against it when it happened in 2016.
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06-28-2018, 10:24 AM | #10792 | |
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Quote:
Problem is, rule of law without a willingness to adapt, expand, and reevaluate is authoritarianism. I think right now, in many ways, we’ve crossed that line. There are just too many cases in our history where disobeying the rule of law was the moral thing to do. Devotion to words of the rule of law, rather than the humanity that inspired those words is dogmatic. FYI, most of this comes from my lecturer on the Declaration of Independence: Rights of people self-evident, God given. ●If rights are violated then people can descent. ●King given consent to rule based on these rights. ●King violated rights. Therefore: ●Colonist can revolt and create new government. Last edited by AENeuman : 06-28-2018 at 10:30 AM. |
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06-28-2018, 11:38 AM | #10793 | |
SI Games
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Quote:
Of course you can tax companies without it taxing the poor (many companies target customers exclude poor people because they sell luxuries) and even in circumstances when they don't the companies involved realize that poor people have inelastic wealth and so don't pass on the full cost of the taxation for the cheaper good they provide. The argument you're using is the one used to depress taxation and prevent a living wage being paid to citizens in the US, despite evidence from the past (in the US) and today from elsewhere in the world showing it to be wholly incorrect, compare German taxation and growth to US for instance and you might find the results surprising to you. PS - This summary also doesn't mention that countries which do tax tend to provide decent social supports for the benefit of the less well off not just in terms of money for food, but also resources for them to get on and improve their lot in life - for instance University education in Germany is totally free (heck I know several families in Florida who have sent their kids there for just that reason). Last edited by Marc Vaughan : 06-28-2018 at 11:39 AM. |
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06-28-2018, 12:31 PM | #10794 |
Favored Bitch #1
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06-28-2018, 01:24 PM | #10795 | ||
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
I'm with you on 1-3, with the lone exception that I wouldn't call it inhumane; we split up millions of families every year for other crimes. I'm against that as well, but most of those throwing a fit about this aren't and the outrage, while justified and appropriate, also lacks proportion and perspective in many cases. On #4, that's consistently over 11 million people regularly over a several-year period; everything I've seen says the same. I think a fraction of that number would qualify as a crisis. Obviously it's a red-meat issue for Trump, not arguing that at all, but this just seems to be a frog-in-the-kettle thing. That's the only way I can get to understanding why somebody wouldn't view this as a big problem; it's been happening so long that we're used to it. Quote:
We've crossed into authoritarianism not because of the rule of law, but because we have a President who thinks its ok to disregard it at his whim and an electorate that basically doesn't care. I mean, we have opportunities available non-stop to adapt and reevaluate. Choosing not to isn't authoritarianism, it's apathy. As to the point about the conflict between morality and law, the problem is; who gets to decide what the moral thing is, when we are throwing out society's previously established decision? I believe there is a place for civil disobedience, provided that it is respectful and expects to pay the price for such as a matter of protest. The only other thing I can say is to put to you directly the question already posed in my last post; what do we know of that works better? If it is ok to disobey a law because you think it is immoral, then we might as well not have laws at all. Last edited by Brian Swartz : 06-28-2018 at 01:25 PM. |
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06-28-2018, 01:47 PM | #10796 | |
Grizzled Veteran
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Quote:
Thank you sir. |
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06-28-2018, 05:43 PM | #10797 |
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— Cav, My Name is a Warsong (@CombatCavScout) June 28, 2018
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06-28-2018, 05:49 PM | #10798 |
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Money for a wall and upkeep of a wall is a massive fucking waste of money. Especially if you can't walk on it or see it from space. How will space force defend us if they can't see the wall?
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06-28-2018, 06:18 PM | #10799 | |||
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Quote:
I agree also on 1-3 and I would call splitting up the kids inhumane. We do split up families if we toss a felon in jail but we don't toss their kids into a "concentration camp". They go with relatives or they have foster/social support. I don't know if the media sensationalize the accommodations for the kids but it looked pretty bad (and likely indefinite until the media jumped all over it). Quote:
I found the same 11M+ "illegals" number which is approx 3.4% of population. Its significant.
Last edited by Edward64 : 06-28-2018 at 06:19 PM. |
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06-28-2018, 07:35 PM | #10800 | |
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For misdemeanors? |
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