Werewolf LXIII - Fall of the Elementals (Game Over - Avatars Win!)

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by saldana

wow...just wow....i dropped about a dozen hints about swaggs and he ends up winning the damn game

i am a little disenfranchised with WW after this game....it seems like the days of people actually reading and anaylzying posts are gone...everyone just went off on their own little tangents even though there was a ton of evidence staring them in the face, even well after i was dead. I realize i had the advantage of knowing who was whom, but hoops gets lynched despite the fact that two guys that never voted for the only dead avatar are still alive?

wow

Saldana you think that the lack of post analysis is a trend or was it more confined to this game?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

CW, if I hadn't blocked either hoops or path, would hoops' kill have gone through before path got to killing me?

Yep. Elemental kills were given higher priority, since they were far higher risk.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I think the game was lost, to a large extent, when I went with the flow on the Heinz vote instead of kicking and screaming about going after Path. I figured I would night kill the other one, so what was the difference?

Obviously, a big difference. Having three trusted players today against Swaggs, even if he had a Duke, would have put us in a good spot to finish this off.

At that's at least partially my fault. I didn't do a good job of analyzing things and making myself more obviously an Elemental. That, coupled with my spur of the moment inability to get online over the weekend (we had to replace our Xmas tree which wasn't taking water) helped put the Elementals way behind the 8-ball.

I even had good info from Night 3, I had tried to swap places with Lathum (he was the person I trusted most, so I figured he may be a night attack, so I was trying to save him). But someone with a great power than mine nullified it.

My bad.

And Saldana, I don't think you should become overly disenchanted based on this one game. I know for me, while I wanted to be more active, it was a tough time of year (Xmas, shopping, sickness) in many ways.

[path12]

Originally Posted by saldana

i am a little disenfranchised with WW after this game....it seems like the days of people actually reading and anaylzying posts are gone...everyone just went off on their own little tangents even though there was a ton of evidence staring them in the face, even well after i was dead. I realize i had the advantage of knowing who was whom, but hoops gets lynched despite the fact that two guys that never voted for the only dead avatar are still alive?

I know I think that every time I GM, so I think at least part of it is the fact that you knew the roles. There are red herrings and tangents every game.

[Lathum]

What would the tie-breaker had been the last day had I voted Path?

[Lathum]

Saldana- why didn't you just come out and say you scanned Swaggs?

The powers are throw away so that wouldn't have made you anymore a target then anyone else?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Lathum

What would the tie-breaker had been the last day had I voted Path?

Heh.

What happened during tie breakers is the following. Both lived through the night. Depending on which sign came up the next day, something would happen to one (or both of them).
Trout - Both Die.
Rhino - Both Live.
Squid & Yak - One of them dies.

[Alan T]

I think I missed parts of the game because of all of my traveling, but from an outside observer, I didn't get the hint that Saldana had said Swaggs was an avatar. I just figured Swaggs was part of Saldana's alternate win condition. I think because of that, I considered Swaggs less the last day as an avatar that I probably should have.

In the final day, I had assumed it was Path/Hoops/St.Cronin as the last two in some combination. Just because Hoops was gunning for Path didn't necessarily rule out a Hoops/Path final two avatar, but it lessened the possibility of that in my mind. What finally tipped my decision was the move out of nowhere that Cronin had on Hoops without any real good reason. At that point I became convinced the final two was Cronin and Path, and Hoops was going to be a gonner.

Thats just my outside thoughts based on having no interaction with anyone this game.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by saldana

wow...just wow....i dropped about a dozen hints about swaggs and he ends up winning the damn game

Sorry, I completely missed this. Maybe your hints were too veiled, or maybe the folks who did go back and look at previous posts missed them.

...but hoops gets lynched despite the fact that two guys that never voted for the only dead avatar are still alive?

Wolves have gotten really good (at times) at scattering votes. The one that we should have been after harder is path12 for the late vote on me to make a tie.

[claphamsa]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Sorry, I completely missed this. Maybe your hints were too veiled, or maybe the folks who did go back and look at previous posts missed them.

I caught em

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

SnDvls, why announce in the thread that you are going to use a duke power instead of just using it? What do you feel like that gains?

I'm not asking this from a results perspective, I'm looking for a strategy discussion on it.

It was a "day only" action and it took place of the lynch...I had already put in a conditional order to use it if you or I were about to be lynched....thus use it only just prior to deadline....when the vote swung my conditional order was gone.

my other two powers were to change the sign to what I wanted (thus allowing me to keep the duke for another day) and to predict the sign for the next day.

since the duke role was stuck to day only I didn't want to unjustly use it on someone like I did w/ changing St. C's powers on night 1. I had a feeling that by duking Swaggs if I was in danger would at least give us some more info on St. C & others was my thinking.

[Swaggs]

I think the fact that saldana came after me so hard, beginning on day 1, was what kind of hurt his cause. Since he should not have known who any of us that were interested in releasing the old gods were on day 1, it just made him look like he was taking a stab on the following days, IMO. And, I tried to play that up. The fact that he was a human upon death, combined with his focus on me, made me look more like I was on the elementals side, IMO.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Saldana- why didn't you just come out and say you scanned Swaggs?

The powers are throw away so that wouldn't have made you anymore a target then anyone else?

Exactly. The fact that saldana didn't say that caused me problems in my analysis, because I didn't believe saldana KNEW anything about Swaggs.

There were two other things that caused me issues: One was claphamsa's play, where he was obviously lying about his ability. This caused me to question the architecture of the game, and led me into a pattern of thought that didn't allow me to even consider path as a suspect. The other was that nobody EXCEPT saldana suspected Swaggs - if either hoops or Lathum had named Swaggs as a suspect, I would have happily been voting for him. But I didn't believe that BOTH hoops and Lathum were bad, so the fact that both players acted like they trusted Swaggs made me think that one of them had scanned Swaggs.

I also got a little bit burned by the schedule - I wasn't around most of Friday, so I had to submit my protection order more or less blind, which meant it was going to be me, instead of somebody more likely. I also wasn't around at all Sunday, and got stuck in traffic Monday morning - which meant night 4 I never even SUBMITTED a night action. For the record I likely would have sent an ethereal spirit to follow Mr. Wednesday. I don't know if I would have learned anything.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I think the fact that saldana came after me so hard, beginning on day 1, was what kind of hurt his cause. Since he should not have known who any of us that were interested in releasing the old gods were on day 1, it just made him look like he was taking a stab on the following days, IMO. And, I tried to play that up. The fact that he was a human upon death, combined with his focus on me, made me look more like I was on the elementals side, IMO.

That is what my point was. As an observer, the way Saldana played the part coupled with his role at death probably put Swaggs too much in the clear in my mind. It wasn't that I thought Swaggs was an elemental based on Saldana's crusade, it just seemed like Path/Hoops/Cronin were better targets for the day. Then based on Cronin's move I had decided that cronin/path were the avatars, forgetting completely about Swaggs.

[st.cronin]

dola, I feel like this was one of my worst all-around games. I wish you guys had lynched me instead of hoops that last day.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

dola, I feel like this was one of my worst all-around games. I wish you guys had lynched me instead of hoops that last day.

Ditto, I was far too passive. Not that I had much personal info to share, but I could've done a better job ping'ing people on their thoughts.

[path12]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

dola, I feel like this was one of my worst all-around games. I wish you guys had lynched me instead of hoops that last day.

No, hoops had to go that day. We weren't sure he didn't have that night kill still around. If votes weren't going to go for him, we were going try and get it switched to Swaggs so he could duke it to hoops.

[path12]

Dola, it was really good for me that it was quiet yesterday afternoon, because although I was able to get online for that last hour or so, my mind was still fuzzy enough from medicine that I wouldn't have been very good at making any kind of case at all.....

[Coffee Warlord]

By the by.

General feelings on the setup of the game itself?

[st.cronin]

I liked it, it would have been helpful to understand more of what avatars were capable of. I just got too distracted thinking they could only kill people.

[st.cronin]

Dola:

Question for SnDvls and PurdueBrad, what was the thought process behind using your ability on day 1?

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I liked it, it would have been helpful to understand more of what avatars were capable of. I just got too distracted thinking they could only kill people.

Even though they had additional powers, I think we might have tripped them up if we'd pushed harder at revealing usage of night powers. For instance, claphamsa's "I scanned Wednesday but it was blocked somehow" may very well have turned the vote, and we would have gotten really suspicious over anyone who went three or four nights in a row without doing anything.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

By the by.

General feelings on the setup of the game itself?

Seemed pretty solid, I don't have the sense that it was poorly balanced. I think the game could have gone either way up until about the last day.

[claphamsa]

Seemed fine to me! It bothered me not to have some general info about the elementals like a generic PM or something, I was just waiting for someone to ask my what kind of elemental i was...... and have to guess. but yeah i enjoyed it!

[Lathum]

This was one of my worst games as well.

I just couldn't keep up with who had used what powers on what nights clearing who....

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Dola:

Question for SnDvls and PurdueBrad, what was the thought process behind using your ability on day 1?

it's a use it or lose it situation there and being that I only survived one day it was a good thought process....and I'm sure PB is/was in the same boat as I since he was killed night 1 too. I suspected you and thought "hey here's a quick way to throw him off right away." if you were bad there is no way you would have come out and said your powers were changed so it cleared you in my book then.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

By the by.

General feelings on the setup of the game itself?

seemed fine on my end...you almost could have been too much in favor of the elementals, though with the outcome in the game it might appear that isn't the case.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

By the by.

General feelings on the setup of the game itself?

I liked the setup, I just didn't do a good job of staying on top of it.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

Saldana you think that the lack of post analysis is a trend or was it more confined to this game?

i honestly dont know. the last few games i have played there doesnt seem to be alot of "going back and looking things over" because there have been things in view that could have been used and are never realized. i think the biggest thing is that our games are so big that people just skim alot to catch up with the the intention of going back and reading more closely, but then never do.

Originally Posted by Lathum

Saldana- why didn't you just come out and say you scanned Swaggs?

The powers are throw away so that wouldn't have made you anymore a target then anyone else?

2 reasons....i didnt actually have any powers, except to know when one of my targets died. so i had no way of knowing if a true scan would give an actual revalation, or if it would give a "feeling"...if i guessed wrong, it would have hung me to the elementals

other reason was my role pm forbade me from directly revealing the team of any player...i wasnt sure (but didnt check), if a fake scan reveal would have qualified as breaking that rule, which likely would have resulted in the squid holding down my arms and legs while i was forced to perform oral sex on the rhino horn and was anally violated by the yak shoving the trout up my ass

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Sorry, I completely missed this. Maybe your hints were too veiled, or maybe the folks who did go back and look at previous posts missed them.


Wolves have gotten really good (at times) at scattering votes. The one that we should have been after harder is path12 for the late vote on me to make a tie.

sometimes i think my posting style makes it easy to ignore what i post...not using capital letters, and having my sentences separated with ... all the time does make for some run on posts

i have tried to make sure in WW i break up my posts with hard returns and capitalize peoples names

that said, i basically said that the first day was E vs E, several times, including when directly asked

i made a totally faulty logical argument for why swaggs voted the way he did, and then pointed it out in a separate post

i declared who i would not vote for, and put my votes on swaggs and left them their unwaveringly...i really dont know what else i could have done without drawing even more attention to myself

Originally Posted by Swaggs

I think the fact that saldana came after me so hard, beginning on day 1, was what kind of hurt his cause. Since he should not have known who any of us that were interested in releasing the old gods were on day 1, it just made him look like he was taking a stab on the following days, IMO. And, I tried to play that up. The fact that he was a human upon death, combined with his focus on me, made me look more like I was on the elementals side, IMO.

realize that i had to keep the game going until i found my unknown targets....i had to burn both ends against the middle to keep either side from winning (notice that the night before i died, i gave my suspect list as swaggs and barkeep...i tried to steer things away from Clap, and never even said Path's name)

my strategy was to give the E team an avatar right away to get into the COT and then say that I had no ability to protect myself, so please keep me alive at night. you gave me the first opportunity to do that with your vote on day one, which i would have found suspicious even if i didnt know all the roles.

after i died (bastards) i would have thought that it might have occurred to someone that "hey, sal had a wierd role, maybe he knew something we didnt because he was human" but that never happened.

i think my role was very hard to play, given that i had no means of providing for myself...i did have a sample set of powers, but couldnt use them, but i was a free shot every night, and didnt have any way to try to find my targets either.

considering my situation, and how i typically die early at night, i thought i had to try to get the E team to cover my ass.

great game CW, it was a blast to read along

one question...the list of powers didnt have any resurrections...i thought there was a chance to get back into the game?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by saldana

great game CW, it was a blast to read along

one question...the list of powers didnt have any resurrections...i thought there was a chance to get back into the game?

Re-read the list. There was a power that allowed you to come back if you were killed that night, and there was a power that summoned a dead player to answer two questions.

the first one was tough, since it had to be used by the player who had it and they had to die that night. But with the tight timeframe we had on this game with xmas coming up (and the fact it was a powerful ability to begin with), I didn't wanna make it all that easy to come back.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Dola:

Question for SnDvls and PurdueBrad, what was the thought process behind using your ability on day 1?

For whatever reason (and no, I can't quite explain it) I had a strong feeling against Path and I figured I would rather use my powers nights 1-4 than risk dying with them. Of course, I only got to use one before they killed me, but I feel secure in knowing that I at least used it on the right guy (particularly since my initial order was to use it on you St. C and then I changed after re-reading some things).

[st.cronin]

Saldana, I think the point at which your strategy failed was in thinking that Elementals would be willing to trust somebody they didn't think was an elemental. If you had wanted the E's to trust you, you needed to do your best to blend in with the E's. The team you should have been transmitting hints to was the A's.

I know that, for my part, once you were revealed as human, I completely disregarded everything you had said.