OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[bronconick]

Don't really think it's a spoiler, but on the safe side.

Spoiler

I think there's a little irony in all of this in that Martin took a little dig at the TV series LOST a few months ago, saying he didn't want his series to end like that, and this book has really fractured the fanbase pretty much along the same lines that LOST did to its fans between the people who watched the show for answers and those that watched it for the characters.

People either love the book because of all the little details and historical quirks he brings in, or they're disappointed because they've waited 6-11 years for so little to happen in 1-2,000 pages.. Characters or plot, again.

[OldGiants]

So will Martin croak, a la Jordan, before he finishes this? The man looks like the poster boy of a Myocardial Infarction warning campaign.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by OldGiants

So will Martin croak, a la Jordan, before he finishes this? The man looks like the poster boy of a Myocardial Infarction warning campaign.

You'll know by the rate the next book is completed.

If he gets into a rhythm because he "bridged" the five year gap and he feels that he solved the Meereen situation adequately and the story starts rolling along like it did for him between publishing AGOT and ASOS, it'll finish.

If he keeps struggling to put words to page like he has for 11 years, it's clear that he's lost interest in the setting and it'll slowly peter out with maybe one more book published, or when HBO inevitably cancels AGOT he'll give up.

[MrBug708]

Ok I just finished book 5

Spoiler

Is Mark Strong anyone of note?

[cschex]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Ok I just finished book 5

Spoiler

Is Mark Strong anyone of note?

Spoiler

Assuming you mean Robert Strong, he's who Qyburn has been alluding to/"working on" since AFFC. Given his height and the fact that he wont speak/take off his visor, it seems pretty obvious from context that he Gregor Clegane reanimated, possibly with a different head.

[MrBug708]

Yup, that's who I meant! That does make sense, however (I've read the book so end of book spoilers)

Spoiler

I think Brans vision means the golden warrior and dogs head will fight the stone warrior with blood. Jaime and Sandor vs Robert Strong probably to defend Sansa.

I also wonder what happened at the battle of Winterfall. Since Ramsey has written, is both Stannis and Roose dead? Obviously we know how Mance got captured

Is Theon the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne? Or did the Kingsmoot cost him that? Theon's POVs were the best of the book IMO

Davos is after Rickon, right? Probably the second best chapters after Theon's

Any chance Aegon is a fake?

Dany...*yawn* Barristan was awesome though.

There are a lot of child switching it seems. Ashara Dayne's child, Rhaegar/Elia's infant, a possible Rhaegar/Lyanna kid, and somehow Ned's mixed up in this. Perhaps Ashara's kid was Jon Snow?

If Jon Snow dies, I bet Melissandre can bring him back. But only death releases a man from the Wall, does that mean he is free to do what he wishes? I'm assuming he is the Azor Ahai reborn?

I saw someone mention that Tyrion might be Aerys kid

And lastly, the only line better than Winter is Coming is...The North remembers...

[MrBug708]

Oh and anyone wanna hazard a guess on whether or not we go 8 books in the series?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Yup, that's who I meant! That does make sense, however (I've read the book so end of book spoilers)

Spoiler

I think Brans vision means the golden warrior and dogs head will fight the stone warrior with blood. Jaime and Sandor vs Robert Strong probably to defend Sansa.

I also wonder what happened at the battle of Winterfall. Since Ramsey has written, is both Stannis and Roose dead? Obviously we know how Mance got captured

Is Theon the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne? Or did the Kingsmoot cost him that? Theon's POVs were the best of the book IMO

Davos is after Rickon, right? Probably the second best chapters after Theon's

Any chance Aegon is a fake?

Dany...*yawn* Barristan was awesome though.

There are a lot of child switching it seems. Ashara Dayne's child, Rhaegar/Elia's infant, a possible Rhaegar/Lyanna kid, and somehow Ned's mixed up in this. Perhaps Ashara's kid was Jon Snow?

If Jon Snow dies, I bet Melissandre can bring him back. But only death releases a man from the Wall, does that mean he is free to do what he wishes? I'm assuming he is the Azor Ahai reborn?

I saw someone mention that Tyrion might be Aerys kid

And lastly, the only line better than Winter is Coming is...The North remembers...

#1: I agree
#2:I've seen this asked elsewhere. My theory is it's just a ruse to try to set a trap.
#3: Nope he's not.
#4: Yeah, that was my reading of it too. I have an idea where they're going also...where horned-horses used to dwell?
#5: Don't think so. The presence of the other individual who we get to know there would seem to argue strongly against that.
#6: Agree. Was hoping for more from those chapters honestly. This is where I felt it dragged the most.
#7: I don't subscribe to that...think the 3rd grouping that you mentioned is the most likely by far.
#8: I agree. And yes, that's what I think is going to come off all this...hints to that effect in the visions.
#9: Don't think so at all. Agree with CW below.
#10: Not sure if it's better, but it's pretty badass, yes.

[Coffee Warlord]

Spoiler

I'm gonna say flat out there's no way Tyrion is anyone but Tywin's son, for one simple reason. Tywin's disdain for his disfigured dwarf son is quite well known - even the slightest HINT that Tyrion wasn't trueborn would have resulted in Tywin tossing the dwarf on his ass straight out of Casterly Rock.

[Crapshoot]

My thoughts - just finished. And

Spoiler

Firstly with regards to what MrBug said, I don't think there's any doubt that R+L = J; re Jon Snow parentage, its pretty clearly Lyanna Stark, no? 4 different books have made this crystal clear.



1) Jon Snow. Really? Really? The Red Wedding, circa 2.0? Was the Ceasar et Brutus analogy not overly strained for anyone else? And did Martin just blow every fucking theory about the Song of Ice out? Either Jon is dead for good (which would be stunning), or we're going to have an other undead Cat type.

2) Another Dragon blood? One who might even have a better claim to the throne than Daenrys? And with 10,000 well trained sell swords controlling Storms End ( where the last successful rebel king came from?) Another King with a claim? Stannis, Tommen, Aegon (Young Griff), Roose Bolton?

3) Did the Meerneese knot really got solved? What the hell is going to happen to Daenrys here? And what happens when the Iron Fleet reaches Slavers Bay and Meeren?

4) Sansa and Littlefinger - what the fuck is the Vale doing when another King has landed? Is the Vale now the largest army left untouched by the rest of the wars? Have they engaged in a single battle since the succession battle started?

5) Why are Ilyirio and Varys so devoted to the cause of the dragon? If the epilogue taught us nothing, its that they do not want the Seven Kingdoms united under Lannister (or Tyrell) or hell, any other rule. What is their underlying motivation / devotion to the dragon? The Tyrion chapters with Ilyirio did nothing for me in terms of explaining that devotion.

6) Stannis v Bolton - if Ramsay slayed him, is Roose Bolton not the king of the North?


7) Way back in another thread in Book 2, I thought Theon was an interesting character to be. He may be the viewpoint that was most compelling to me here.

[JAG]

Spoiler

1. re: Theon and heir to the Iron Islands, the chapter where Asha Greyjoy loses Deepwood Motte, she is talking with Tris Botley about someone who a long time ago became king of the Iron Islands because he wasn't at the kingsmoot and therefore wasn't subject to it (something like they tried to hold it without him so he wouldn't have a legitimate claim). She then kisses him out of excitement I think because she realizes that same rule would apply to Theon, who she just realized was alive after getting Ramsay's letter with a 'piece of Prince'. So yes, in my opinion he can technically make a claim to the Iron Islands.

2. Roose Bolton isn't technically King in the North, he's Warden of the North (just a difference of being subject to the Iron Throne or not)

3. re: Ilyrio and Varys, I'm also curious about why they care. Maybe not Varys who's talked about being devoted to the realm and peace since book 1 (and interestingly seems to want Aegon to be king more than Dany to be queen...wonder how she'll feel about that), but other than Ilyrio being friends with Varys, he seems to have the most questionable motivation.

4. re: Battle of Winterfell, my guess is Ramsay was lying about Stannis, who after Theon shows up can learn about the betrayal of the Karstarks and it's pretty uncertain to me that the White Harbor knights went along with Roose's orders to attack., though he's probably being truthful about Mance Rayder. I would be surprised if Roose was dead though, he was a pretty wary guy.

5. re: Davos / Rickon, I agree. I think they were saying Rickon was on the island of Skagos? (where there are cannibals?) But I'm most fuzzy on that part, I couldn't figure out how they had gotten there if that's the case.

6. re: Azor Ahai reborn, I'm pretty sure that's Dany. Born amidst salt and storm (she was born on Dragonstone so that fits), will wake dragons from stone (end of book 1).

7. re: Jon Snow - This thought just came to me, but might he have to live on through Ghost? I was thinking about how in the Prologue the skinchanger talked about the second life and living on in his animals after his original body died. Melisandre kept urging Jon to keep his wolf near him. I had originally thought it might've meant for protection, but maybe there was another reason. Seems unlikely, but there might be something to that.

[Simbo Klice]

Spoiler

I think the logic behind Jon's death is to remove him from the Night's Watch (the words say your watch won't end until your death)- Didn't Varamyr Sixskins reminisce about dying multiple times, or was he just talking about dying while warging? The other possibility would be that Melisandre could give him the Beric Donderrion treatment...

[flounder]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Oh and anyone wanna hazard a guess on whether or not we go 8 books in the series?

Well, if we assume the last book is going to be the ultimate battle against the Others, then this is all of the stuff that has to get resolved in the next book.

Spoiler

1. Jon Snow and the Night's Watch.
2. Winterfell and the Boltons/Stannis/Manderley
3. Melisandre and Queen Selyse and how they deal with whatever the outcome at Winterfell is (this is probably mixed up with number 1).
4. Davos and Rickon.
5. Bran and the Greenseer (I guess this doesn't need to be totally resolved before the last book).
6. Arya
7. Sansa and Littlefinger
8. Cersei versus the Tyrells versus the High Septon
9. Jaime/Brienne/Catelyn/Sandor
10. Jon Connington/Aegon
11. Dorne and the Martells
12. Daenerys and Khal Jhaqo (could be handled off screen)
13. Daenerys vs. the Sons of the Harpy
14. Daenerys vs. Yunkai
15. Daenerys vs. Victarion (which I assume will end with someone using the Iron Fleet to get to Westeros).
16. Whatever Tyrion is supposed to do.
17. Asha, Theon and the Iron Islands.
18. Sam Tarly and the Citadel/Maester Marwyn
19. Other stuff like the wildlings at Hardhome and whatever Varys is up to that could probably be handled off screen.

That's way too much for one book. It might be too much for two books. Unless the fight against the Others gets extremely short shrift, I can't see any way for the series to end after 7 books.

[SackAttack]

I think it's gonna have to go 8 minimum, yeah. Martin said at Comic-Con that there's two left, but realistically, Crows/Dragons was supposed to be one originally. I have to think the next one ends up getting a split like that also.

[Glengoyne]

Still making my way through my Audible edition. Best quote so far.
Roose Bolton to Ramsey..."don't make me(sic)...rue the day I raped your mother."

You gotta love Roose.

I think I did the (sic) thing right. If not I'll make the grammar or english teacher threads.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Spoiler

Isn't Sandor well and truly dead? When Brienne et al were hunting Sansa and they came to the monks who have their vow of silence, the main monk guy tells them that he buried Sandor himself, and that he used the helmet for a headstone. I am pretty sure that later on Biter is the one that stole the helmet/was pretending to be Sandor.

Perhaps I'm misreading these thoughts in prior posts with the Jaime/Sandor v. Gregor/Mark Strong thing as Sandor being in the past.

I think the reason Ilyrio and Varys are so devoted to the Dragon lies in Dorne. That being said, it isn't that hard to see why Varys would not support anyone in the interim - despite peace, Robert ran the kingdom into the ground. Cersei is completely insane, and that doesn't even take into consideration the brutal way that Tywin Lannister handled the end of the Targaryens. Highgarden is completely unproven and if I remember correctly Mace Tyrell is a piss-poor commander/leader. Stannis is, well, Stannis, and no one really likes him. Who WOULD Varys support, if not the Targaryens?

That leads me to my biggest beef in Dance, however. How in the eff did Tywin Lannister not question whether or not Aegon was well and truly dead? He has clearly been painted as a cunning, ruthless man who was truly the most fit for rule in all of Westeros, and yet he takes Gregor Clegane's word for it that he killed the right kid? That seems to be the weakest plot moment in Dance for me.

As for my take on the rest...

-I don't think Jon Snow is dead. As some have mentioned in the thread already, we've had several "cliffhanger" type moments where a chapter ends with a character presumably dead, and they pop up a few chapters later alive and well. Although he's been tempted before, Jon Snow has not been an oathbreaker (outside of Ygritte), and he strikes me as someone who would continue his watch through death if the possibility presented itself, words or not. Words are wind...

-That all being said, what a shitshow the wall is going to be if Jon is truly out of commission. Jon was the only thing keeping things civil between the Night's Watch and the Wildlings, and now there's thousands of them on the wrong side of a completely under-manned wall? And a sizable force of the Watch are at sea or wrecked at the same time? Chaos is going to descend quickly up there, methinks.

-Pretty sure Stannis isn't done yet, despite what Ramsay had to say. Theon made it out to Stannis's camp, yet Ramsay wasn't able to capture him? If he smashed Stannis's host, what was to keep him from getting Theon? I think that Ramsay might have offed Roose - that last scene between the Bastard and his Father could have pushed Ramsay into "my father is no longer useful to me" territory, or worried him that Roose began thinking the same thing about him, especially now that fat Walda is preggers. Ramsay is quickly becoming as hated a character as Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers were.

-Littlefinger to me is still the most interesting wildcard. We obviously started to see his plans, and the chaos in the North plays perfectly in his favor...except for the fact that Bran and Rickon are still alive. The Vale has been completely untouched by the war, holds a perfectly defensible position and SHOULD be well stocked for winter. As of now, we know where everyone's allegiance stands, except for Littlefinger. Arguably we know that too - to Littlefinger - but how does he see himself fitting in the aftermath?

-It seems to me that Dany is going to do one of a few things...
A) Get over the fact that people die in wars, and start using her dragons to her advantage.
B) Bind the khalasars to her will (Khal Pono, Khal Joqo, etc) and clean up Mereen/Astapor/Yunkai/etc with them.
C) Claim the Iron Fleet for her own and sail back to Westeros with it.
D) All of the above.
I'm also very confused as to the seer helping out Dany - I thought they all wanted to use her? Why is the chick showing/telling Dany about the visions, and why is Dany blindly trusting them/believing in them? Quaithe, I think was her name?

-Theon has become a much more interesting character now that he's having identity problems. Euron is too strong a figure to just disappear, but with the majority of his fleet in the hands of Victarion and pretty much written off by everyone as eventually becoming Dany's in some way, shape or form, how will he continue to play a role? Theon is the piece that will be used to clean up the mess that is left of the Iron Islands, but who will be using him? Also, will it matter? The Ironborn will not accept Theon as a ruler regardless of what the bloodline says. It seems that there won't be many Ironborn left, but still...

-Bran's chapters were completely underwhelming to me. I'm not exactly sure where Martin is going with his character; clearly he's leaning mystical, but to what end? I'm not really sure and I'm almost completely losing interest. The thing that interests me the most on this branch is Meera and Jojen. And the notably absent Howland Reed. Moat Cailin was lost, but there was no mention of Howland Reed, and with the huge emphasis on him by Ned Stark and in the back story, I can't imagine he's going to be MIA forever.

-Jaime gets one scene, and it's for Brienne to take him away? Blech. I was really enjoying the transformation of Jaime from self-absorbed incestuous asshole to someone who is working hard to prove that he deserves the cloak he wears. Now he's going to have to face an undead and completely hell-bent on revenge Cat Stark. Boo.

-Mark Strong as Cersei's champion...not really sure how this is going to go, but I'm digging the idea of Dorne starting to take a more active interest in the goings-on in Westeros. With the Sand Snakes starting to branch out, Strong will soon be revealed as Gregor Clegane reanimated, and Dorne will want him dead as well. Now that Aegon has revealed himself, will Arianne (I think that was the Dornish girl) be matched to him instead of Viserys? I'm also intrigued by Connington having Greyscale. That's a huge deal, and could be a major problem for Aegon.

-Another side note - the wildlings (Val in particular) have a very strong aversion to Greyscale, notably pointed out about Stannis's daughter. Red herring, or something to pay attention to for later? Also, I have this random nagging thought that Stannis' fool is more important than most think.

-I still love Arya, but I'm also wondering how she's going to fit in to the whole thing when all is said and done.

-Tyrion is in the same boat as Arya for me, though it seems like he's got a little bit more direction in striving to advise Danaerys. Not really sure what Penny's role is other than a vehicle to keep Tyrion moving within the plot.

That was a lot longer than I intended.

[cschex]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Spoiler

Isn't Sandor well and truly dead? When Brienne et al were hunting Sansa and they came to the monks who have their vow of silence, the main monk guy tells them that he buried Sandor himself, and that he used the helmet for a headstone. I am pretty sure that later on Biter is the one that stole the helmet/was pretending to be Sandor.

Perhaps I'm misreading these thoughts in prior posts with the Jaime/Sandor v. Gregor/Mark Strong thing as Sandor being in the past.

I think the reason Ilyrio and Varys are so devoted to the Dragon lies in Dorne. That being said, it isn't that hard to see why Varys would not support anyone in the interim - despite peace, Robert ran the kingdom into the ground. Cersei is completely insane, and that doesn't even take into consideration the brutal way that Tywin Lannister handled the end of the Targaryens. Highgarden is completely unproven and if I remember correctly Mace Tyrell is a piss-poor commander/leader. Stannis is, well, Stannis, and no one really likes him. Who WOULD Varys support, if not the Targaryens?

That leads me to my biggest beef in Dance, however. How in the eff did Tywin Lannister not question whether or not Aegon was well and truly dead? He has clearly been painted as a cunning, ruthless man who was truly the most fit for rule in all of Westeros, and yet he takes Gregor Clegane's word for it that he killed the right kid? That seems to be the weakest plot moment in Dance for me.

As for my take on the rest...

-I don't think Jon Snow is dead. As some have mentioned in the thread already, we've had several "cliffhanger" type moments where a chapter ends with a character presumably dead, and they pop up a few chapters later alive and well. Although he's been tempted before, Jon Snow has not been an oathbreaker (outside of Ygritte), and he strikes me as someone who would continue his watch through death if the possibility presented itself, words or not. Words are wind...

-That all being said, what a shitshow the wall is going to be if Jon is truly out of commission. Jon was the only thing keeping things civil between the Night's Watch and the Wildlings, and now there's thousands of them on the wrong side of a completely under-manned wall? And a sizable force of the Watch are at sea or wrecked at the same time? Chaos is going to descend quickly up there, methinks.

-Pretty sure Stannis isn't done yet, despite what Ramsay had to say. Theon made it out to Stannis's camp, yet Ramsay wasn't able to capture him? If he smashed Stannis's host, what was to keep him from getting Theon? I think that Ramsay might have offed Roose - that last scene between the Bastard and his Father could have pushed Ramsay into "my father is no longer useful to me" territory, or worried him that Roose began thinking the same thing about him, especially now that fat Walda is preggers. Ramsay is quickly becoming as hated a character as Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers were.

-Littlefinger to me is still the most interesting wildcard. We obviously started to see his plans, and the chaos in the North plays perfectly in his favor...except for the fact that Bran and Rickon are still alive. The Vale has been completely untouched by the war, holds a perfectly defensible position and SHOULD be well stocked for winter. As of now, we know where everyone's allegiance stands, except for Littlefinger. Arguably we know that too - to Littlefinger - but how does he see himself fitting in the aftermath?

-It seems to me that Dany is going to do one of a few things...
A) Get over the fact that people die in wars, and start using her dragons to her advantage.
B) Bind the khalasars to her will (Khal Pono, Khal Joqo, etc) and clean up Mereen/Astapor/Yunkai/etc with them.
C) Claim the Iron Fleet for her own and sail back to Westeros with it.
D) All of the above.
I'm also very confused as to the seer helping out Dany - I thought they all wanted to use her? Why is the chick showing/telling Dany about the visions, and why is Dany blindly trusting them/believing in them? Quaithe, I think was her name?

-Theon has become a much more interesting character now that he's having identity problems. Euron is too strong a figure to just disappear, but with the majority of his fleet in the hands of Victarion and pretty much written off by everyone as eventually becoming Dany's in some way, shape or form, how will he continue to play a role? Theon is the piece that will be used to clean up the mess that is left of the Iron Islands, but who will be using him? Also, will it matter? The Ironborn will not accept Theon as a ruler regardless of what the bloodline says. It seems that there won't be many Ironborn left, but still...

-Bran's chapters were completely underwhelming to me. I'm not exactly sure where Martin is going with his character; clearly he's leaning mystical, but to what end? I'm not really sure and I'm almost completely losing interest. The thing that interests me the most on this branch is Meera and Jojen. And the notably absent Howland Reed. Moat Cailin was lost, but there was no mention of Howland Reed, and with the huge emphasis on him by Ned Stark and in the back story, I can't imagine he's going to be MIA forever.

-Jaime gets one scene, and it's for Brienne to take him away? Blech. I was really enjoying the transformation of Jaime from self-absorbed incestuous asshole to someone who is working hard to prove that he deserves the cloak he wears. Now he's going to have to face an undead and completely hell-bent on revenge Cat Stark. Boo.

-Mark Strong as Cersei's champion...not really sure how this is going to go, but I'm digging the idea of Dorne starting to take a more active interest in the goings-on in Westeros. With the Sand Snakes starting to branch out, Strong will soon be revealed as Gregor Clegane reanimated, and Dorne will want him dead as well. Now that Aegon has revealed himself, will Arianne (I think that was the Dornish girl) be matched to him instead of Viserys? I'm also intrigued by Connington having Greyscale. That's a huge deal, and could be a major problem for Aegon.

-Another side note - the wildlings (Val in particular) have a very strong aversion to Greyscale, notably pointed out about Stannis's daughter. Red herring, or something to pay attention to for later? Also, I have this random nagging thought that Stannis' fool is more important than most think.

-I still love Arya, but I'm also wondering how she's going to fit in to the whole thing when all is said and done.

-Tyrion is in the same boat as Arya for me, though it seems like he's got a little bit more direction in striving to advise Danaerys. Not really sure what Penny's role is other than a vehicle to keep Tyrion moving within the plot.

That was a lot longer than I intended.

Spoiler

I think there are a fair amount of people (myself included) who believe the unnamed tall silent brother on the Quiet Isle is Sandor Clegane. If you read that Brienne chapter, the clues are there: The Brother refers to the The Hound being dead, never Sandor by name; Sandor's horse is there, his height, the fact that we never see his face, the fact that he is lame. I personally think that he and Jaime are going to end of having to defend Sansa from UnGregor, linking back to Bran's vision from Book 1

[Vince, Pt. II]

I'll have to re-read that then. I had convinced myself that was the case, but then a friend argued the counterpoint and re-convinced me otherwise.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Still making my way through my Audible edition. Best quote so far.
Roose Bolton to Ramsey..."don't make me(sic)...rue the day I raped your mother."

You gotta love Roose.

I think I did the (sic) thing right. If not I'll make the grammar or english teacher threads.

I am making my way through (70% through) and I have a Tyrion line that trumps that when someone is telling him "Think of me as you would your father", Tyrion thinks Gladly, made me burst out laughing (thankfully I was at home and not on the train).

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I am making my way through (70% through) and I have a Tyrion line that trumps that when someone is telling him "Think of me as you would your father", Tyrion thinks Gladly, made me burst out laughing (thankfully I was at home and not on the train).

That was a fantastic line.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

Spoiler

Isn't Sandor well and truly dead? When Brienne et al were hunting Sansa and they came to the monks who have their vow of silence, the main monk guy tells them that he buried Sandor himself, and that he used the helmet for a headstone. I am pretty sure that later on Biter is the one that stole the helmet/was pretending to be Sandor.

Perhaps I'm misreading these thoughts in prior posts with the Jaime/Sandor v. Gregor/Mark Strong thing as Sandor being in the past.

I think the reason Ilyrio and Varys are so devoted to the Dragon lies in Dorne. That being said, it isn't that hard to see why Varys would not support anyone in the interim - despite peace, Robert ran the kingdom into the ground. Cersei is completely insane, and that doesn't even take into consideration the brutal way that Tywin Lannister handled the end of the Targaryens. Highgarden is completely unproven and if I remember correctly Mace Tyrell is a piss-poor commander/leader. Stannis is, well, Stannis, and no one really likes him. Who WOULD Varys support, if not the Targaryens?

That leads me to my biggest beef in Dance, however. How in the eff did Tywin Lannister not question whether or not Aegon was well and truly dead? He has clearly been painted as a cunning, ruthless man who was truly the most fit for rule in all of Westeros, and yet he takes Gregor Clegane's word for it that he killed the right kid? That seems to be the weakest plot moment in Dance for me.

As for my take on the rest...

-I don't think Jon Snow is dead. As some have mentioned in the thread already, we've had several "cliffhanger" type moments where a chapter ends with a character presumably dead, and they pop up a few chapters later alive and well. Although he's been tempted before, Jon Snow has not been an oathbreaker (outside of Ygritte), and he strikes me as someone who would continue his watch through death if the possibility presented itself, words or not. Words are wind...

-That all being said, what a shitshow the wall is going to be if Jon is truly out of commission. Jon was the only thing keeping things civil between the Night's Watch and the Wildlings, and now there's thousands of them on the wrong side of a completely under-manned wall? And a sizable force of the Watch are at sea or wrecked at the same time? Chaos is going to descend quickly up there, methinks.

-Pretty sure Stannis isn't done yet, despite what Ramsay had to say. Theon made it out to Stannis's camp, yet Ramsay wasn't able to capture him? If he smashed Stannis's host, what was to keep him from getting Theon? I think that Ramsay might have offed Roose - that last scene between the Bastard and his Father could have pushed Ramsay into "my father is no longer useful to me" territory, or worried him that Roose began thinking the same thing about him, especially now that fat Walda is preggers. Ramsay is quickly becoming as hated a character as Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Mummers were.

-Littlefinger to me is still the most interesting wildcard. We obviously started to see his plans, and the chaos in the North plays perfectly in his favor...except for the fact that Bran and Rickon are still alive. The Vale has been completely untouched by the war, holds a perfectly defensible position and SHOULD be well stocked for winter. As of now, we know where everyone's allegiance stands, except for Littlefinger. Arguably we know that too - to Littlefinger - but how does he see himself fitting in the aftermath?

-It seems to me that Dany is going to do one of a few things...
A) Get over the fact that people die in wars, and start using her dragons to her advantage.
B) Bind the khalasars to her will (Khal Pono, Khal Joqo, etc) and clean up Mereen/Astapor/Yunkai/etc with them.
C) Claim the Iron Fleet for her own and sail back to Westeros with it.
D) All of the above.
I'm also very confused as to the seer helping out Dany - I thought they all wanted to use her? Why is the chick showing/telling Dany about the visions, and why is Dany blindly trusting them/believing in them? Quaithe, I think was her name?

-Theon has become a much more interesting character now that he's having identity problems. Euron is too strong a figure to just disappear, but with the majority of his fleet in the hands of Victarion and pretty much written off by everyone as eventually becoming Dany's in some way, shape or form, how will he continue to play a role? Theon is the piece that will be used to clean up the mess that is left of the Iron Islands, but who will be using him? Also, will it matter? The Ironborn will not accept Theon as a ruler regardless of what the bloodline says. It seems that there won't be many Ironborn left, but still...

-Bran's chapters were completely underwhelming to me. I'm not exactly sure where Martin is going with his character; clearly he's leaning mystical, but to what end? I'm not really sure and I'm almost completely losing interest. The thing that interests me the most on this branch is Meera and Jojen. And the notably absent Howland Reed. Moat Cailin was lost, but there was no mention of Howland Reed, and with the huge emphasis on him by Ned Stark and in the back story, I can't imagine he's going to be MIA forever.

-Jaime gets one scene, and it's for Brienne to take him away? Blech. I was really enjoying the transformation of Jaime from self-absorbed incestuous asshole to someone who is working hard to prove that he deserves the cloak he wears. Now he's going to have to face an undead and completely hell-bent on revenge Cat Stark. Boo.

-Mark Strong as Cersei's champion...not really sure how this is going to go, but I'm digging the idea of Dorne starting to take a more active interest in the goings-on in Westeros. With the Sand Snakes starting to branch out, Strong will soon be revealed as Gregor Clegane reanimated, and Dorne will want him dead as well. Now that Aegon has revealed himself, will Arianne (I think that was the Dornish girl) be matched to him instead of Viserys? I'm also intrigued by Connington having Greyscale. That's a huge deal, and could be a major problem for Aegon.

-Another side note - the wildlings (Val in particular) have a very strong aversion to Greyscale, notably pointed out about Stannis's daughter. Red herring, or something to pay attention to for later? Also, I have this random nagging thought that Stannis' fool is more important than most think.

-I still love Arya, but I'm also wondering how she's going to fit in to the whole thing when all is said and done.

-Tyrion is in the same boat as Arya for me, though it seems like he's got a little bit more direction in striving to advise Danaerys. Not really sure what Penny's role is other than a vehicle to keep Tyrion moving within the plot.

That was a lot longer than I intended.

Spoiler

re: Sandor, I think H_B pointed out a long while back that one of the monks was described as huge, which could be Sandor. When the monk said The Hound is dead, perhaps he meant Sandor is not who he used to be, maybe he has a new name, like Strong. It still seems like his destiny was always to kill his brother...

re: Tywin, if you think about it, even if he knew he didn't have the baby, he would certainly want to make it seem like he did. Otherwise Robert would have had a lot more cause to doubt the Lannisters' devotion to his cause.

re: Jon Snow, I postulated above he might end up in Ghost. I reread the Melisandre chapter and when she viewed him in the flames, she saw him as a man, then a wolf, then a man again. Could be just a statement about his being a warg, but perhaps that was his future she saw...

re: The Wall post-Jon, that was one of the things I couldn't understand about why they 'killed' him initially. The only thing I could think of was the hostages they had probably staying their hands.

I agree re: Littlefinger. I'm very interested to see what his plans are for fitting in with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms. As it is, he can make a claim for the Vale and the Riverlands, and soon the North, but what has he got cooked up for the rest of the land?

re; Dany, C seems the most likely. It's hard to envision her returning to Westeros with her army of Unsullied without the Iron Fleet and her destiny seems to lie there (though it seems like she will be traveling to Asshai at some point). I have no clue what Quaithe's motivation is, possibly to convert Dany to the worship of R'hllor? It sounds like Euron is going to play a significant role in the events to come with the dragons if you trust Moqotto's vision that, 'The most significant shadow will be cast by a man with one eye and ten arms' (or something like that...sounded like he described Euron though he may think it's Victarion at this point).

re: Bran, I actually enjoyed his few chapters significantly more than in Storm of Swords. I don't know exactly how he'll fit in with things, but I imagine he's going to play more of a part in dealing with the Others than anything else.

re: Jamie and Brienne, I'm not surprised she survived, but I'm still mystified by what word Brienne could've said to save herself from the noose.

[ISiddiqui]

I just finished. IMO, this book was the worst of the series. I'm crushingly disappointed.

Spoiler

Seriously all those words for what? Yes, we get some really new characters and plot movement on Aegon and Jon Connington, but Dany & Tyrion go no where really. Dany learns that being a Queen is hard work and you have get your hands dirty a bit. Great, did it have to take that long? Tyrion's chapters are a travelogue. Jon basically just lets the Wildlings join the cause of Night's Watch only to get killed for it and, seemingly, start a war on the Wall (even if Mellisandre gives him the Beric Dondarrion treatment)... which can only benefit Stannis, who I really doubt is dead.

I did like Cersei basically taking herself out of the picture by just confessing and taking the walk (second time in the series were confessing is the WRONG thing to do) and then Varys decides to put her back in by killing the guy that could make things work out fine for Tommen.

One wonders what Dany is like to do when he discovers Aegon may have beaten to her to the punch.

And I'm sorry, but the whole Bran story arc has always been dull.

Hey George, you think we can move this story along a little bit? I realize character development is nice, but you did a great job balancing character development with plot movement in your first three books of the series. Remember those?

[Honolulu_Blue]

All right, no reason to have an entire thread with nothing but Spoiler Warnings.

So, I think we should open the discussion.

ANY POST BEYOND THIS ONE CAN (AND VERY LIKELY WILL) CONTAIN A DISCUSSION OF EVERYTHING OF THE SERIES THROUGH THE END OF BOOK FIVE (DANCE WITH DRAGONS). SO, SPOLIERS.

PROCEED FURTHER WITH CAUTION.

[GrantDawg]

SNAPE KILLED DUMBLEDORE!!!

[Honolulu_Blue]

As one might guess from my prior post, I finally got around to finishing "Dance With Dragons" over the weekend.

Here are some of my initial thoughts in no particular order:

First, I never read the "Wheel of Time" series. In fact, other than the first six "Dragonlance" books, "Lord Of The Rings", Charlie Huston's "Henry Thomas" triology, and the "Dark Tower" series, beyond comic books/graphic novels, I don't think I've ever read any other series, fantasy or otherwise. So, I haven't been burned before like a lot of other folks. My take on the length of the series is pretty simple: I want him to finish it. If it's seven books, great. If it takes eight, that's fine too, since it just means more time in that world. If it starts running beyond that, well... I am also pretty patient. The "Dark Tower" series took an insanely long time to finish.

-I can't say I was devastated, irritated, annoyed or didn't like the book, because I enjoyed it. I loved reading it. I love being back in that world and back with those characters. There is no denying it. I loved a lot of the chapters and perspectives. That said, there were things I wasn't thrilled with and a few things I feel were missteps. The largest genral problem I had with the book is that it felt like very strings were getting pulled further and further apart as opposed to being tied back together. It felt like pieces were just sort of moving around randomly.

- One of the biggest missteps for me was the introduction of the Aegon character. I remember reading somewhere that there was speculation that he could be still alive, but dismissed it. Like Quentyn Martell, I feel like he's just "come too late" in the story. He seems like a relatively important character to introduce in book five of a (supposively) seven book series. He also has the potential to marginalize Dany, who we've been with since the begining.

I don't have high hopes for the guy. I like Jon Connington, I didn't mind his chapters, since I liked the Gold Company stuff and liked them going back to Westeros. I also enjoy all of his recollections of the past, Rhaeger, Battle of the Bells, etc. Aegon, however, seems like he's a bit irritating. There was some comment by someone about how he was much easier to handle when he was just a peasant boy and before they openly revealed him to be a potential king. He showed an ability to be manipulated by Tyrion and his desire to lead the raid on Storm's End could prove fatal. There is really only two ways I can see it shaking down for Aegon. Either he's triumphant, where does that leave Dany? Or he gets killed and, thus, what was the point of all of this?

Maybe one reason for Aegon's presence is that it could finally bring Dorne into the war. If that's the case, then I could be fine with that. I kind of like Dorne, so the more of Dorne the better.

- While the Tyrion character still remains great, much of what did or was forced to do in this book was either dull or annoying. The whole ride down the river with Griff through that crazy, misty place with the giant turtles and the greyskin monsters didn't do much for me. I like seeing various parts of the Land Across The Narrow Sea and understand that that world is more mystical and magical than Westeros, but that particular stretch didn't do much for me. Penny was and remains deeply irritating.

I also didn't like Tyrion cartwheeling around all over the place. I always felt like that first scene between Tyrion and Jon, when Tyrion jumped down and tumbled in the air was just something Martin added early on and forgot to take out, since Tyrion never did anything like that again. Bringing that back up was just... eh.

I did like Jorah Mormont's presence in those chapters. I found him to be a bright spot.

- There were a few too many chapters that ended with the perspective character seemingly dying. It was like the "sexposition" on the TV show. You can't have that sort of thing become a trend or it becomes too obvious.

- I found the Bran stuff very dull, but there wasn't a lot of it. The best thing in those chapters was that vision he had of the gold man, dog headed guy fighting the silent mountain or whatever, because if that means we get a one-handed Jaimie and the Hound back from the Silent Isle to fight Robert Strong aka The Gregorstein, I am more than down with that.

- At first I wasn't too thrilled with the Theon chapters, but about half way through, once they got settled at Winterfell, I really enjoyed them. Ramsay Bolton has to take the mantle as the most evil character in the books at the moment. He trumps the like of Viserys and Gregor. I didn't realzie who Abel and his women were until about halfway through the rescue attempt. It didn't dawn on me until one of them said "Kneelers" and then I was like... Oh.. Ooooh...

- Boats. Far too much time spent on boats.

- That said, I kind of liked the Victarion chapters. He really isn't all that different from Quentyn Martell in a way. He's much more brutal and vicious, but still has this "fairy tale" vision of what he's doing and why.

- I didn't find too many of the new characters, perspective or otherwise, to be too terribly compelling. There hasn't been a Hound, Mountain, Syrio Florell, Jaqen H'gar, or even Vargo Hoat, that has really captured me. I did end up coming around to Ser Archibald - the Dornish guy with the giant hammer who was with Quentyn. I also kind of liked the Shavepate after a while. I am trying to think of a new character that I thought was very cool and can't quite think of one.

- I really enjoyed the one Areo Hotah chapter. More plotting, planning and schemeing by Doran Martel.

- Not enough Davos. I really like Davos. His scene with Lord Manderly in private was a favorite. At first I was stunned by the show the Manderlys put on. I couldn't believe they were being so lame and ridiculous with the Freys and Boltons. I was thrilled when they revealed it was all an act and that they were good, loyal Stark bannermen. I also liked the fact that they apparently killed those Freys who were with them and had them baked into those "pork" pies at the wedding feast that Lord Manderly kept downing and downing and downing. It will be interesting to see if Davos can find Rickon, Osha and Shaggy Dog. An interesting group.

- I loved the Barristan Selmy perspective chapters. He was a great character to finally get inside of and I liked a lot of the action and plotting in it. Some great stuff about the past, which I always enjoy, and interesting stuff going on in the present. Those were some of my favorite chapters. His fight with the pit fighter was excellent. I love seeing Selmy being a bad ass.

- Poor Quentyn Martell. You can't help but feel bad for the guy. He just came too late. And then tried a little too hard. I do like how he's making dragons very dangerous and hard to control, as they should be.

- I went back and forth on the Dany stuff. Some of it I really enjoyed, some of it I didn't. I thought the scene in the fighting pits was excellent. Daario Naharas was probably the second biggest douche bag in the series for me. The first being the "Darkstar". I know we mainly saw him through Dany's eyes, that of a young girl (it was nicely tempered through Barristan's perspective), but still. Then again, at the end it sounded like he was shot out of a trebuchet, so we might not have to deal with him and his "ladies" anymore.

I am not sure what to think of her last chapter. The khalasar she came upon wast part of Khal Drogo's old khalasar. She's on a large dragon. It kind of feels like she has taken one big step back, ditching all of the Meereen stuff and "learning how to be a Queen/rule" idea and becoming a khaleese of sorts. With the khalasar, however, she can lead them back to Meereen, smash the Yunkai'i and the rest of those armies besieging Meereen and then finally turn her attention back to Westeros. She could use the Volantese fleet among other ships to make the journey. If that's the plan, I am pretty ok with it. Granted, she has to get those dragons under control, will need to deal with Victarion and his dragon taming horn and there is always Marwin who hasn't shown up yet.

I must say that I love the Yunkai'i. They make me smile with all of their ridiculousness. I enjoy their weird, decadant corrupt culture with all of their freak armies - guys chained to one another, guys on stilts - and all of the oddness.

- I enjoyed the Aarya chapters. Of all the characters, in her two or so chapters, it felt like she made some of the biggest progress.

- Jon. Well, I really loved his chapters. I always have liked the stuff at the Wall. I felt like there was a lot of cool stuff going on there with the Watch, the wildlings and the like. Then the last page of his perspective happened... For The Watch.

I can't see anything beyond pure and absolute chaos breaking out right after that. You had Wun Wun ripping aparent one of Queen Sylse's knights. You had part of the Watch killing Jon Snow. It would likely be an all out war between the Watch and Sylse's men and Toramund and all of the wildlings. There seemed to be more wildlings. That battle would likely has repercussions all along the Wall.

There are really three options for Jon Snow. One, he's dead. If that's the case, well, then... I have no idea what to think. Two, he's not dead, just wounded and heals up. Three, he dies and Melisandre raises him from the dead like Thoros did Dondarrion and Catelyn after that. I am not sure how I feel about option three, though Dondarrion seemed perfectly fine for a whole there. Even if he does some how make it, I am not sure what he would have left to rule after this madness.

Not sure what to make of Ramsay's letter either. Clearly, he knows about Maynce and his spearwives. So, there was some truth to it. I find it hard to believe that the he has already crushed Stannis' host. It's possible they would do that off screen, but it would be odd. Since Theon, Asha and "Arya" were with Stannis, you figure if Ramsay crushed their host, he would have them as well, unless they managed to sneak away. Also, why would Ramsay be writing it and not Roose?

- I liked the Cersei chapters well enough. The ending with Varys showing up and killing Kevan was a bit surprising. Granted,, Varys has been working for a Targaryen return for a long time now, so I can see him becoming a bit more proactive now that Aegon has been revealed and landed on Westeros. If Varys really feels that Aegon on the throne is the best option, then getting rid of Kevan and putting the trainwreck that is Cersei back in power, is a strong means to that end.

So, where does this leave everyone...

Jon Snow possibly dead.

The Wall and the Night's Watch in complete chaos.

Dany possibly at the head of a new Khalasar.

Barristan Selmy and his new council at war with Yunkai'i and their allies.

Cersei back in a position of power?

Arya getting closer to becoming a faceless man.

Davos off to find Rickon

Jaimie disappearing with Brienne who, presumably, was sent to kill him or lead him to his death.

Bran under ground with the Children of the Forest, warging with all differnt types of animals and mind melding with weirwoods or something.

Theon, Asha and "Arya" with Stannis or wandering in the frozen north.

Stannis dead and his army supposively smashed.

Jon Connigton and Prince Aegon poised to take Storm's End.

Samwell Tarly in Old Town learning to become a maester.

Little Finger poised to make Sansa some sort of Queen of the North or something and trying to have the, as of yet unsullied, power of the Vale at his command.

Those are just some initial thoughts... Probably forgot a lot of stuff.

[ISiddiqui]

I think the Aegon stuff was just for what you said, to bring Dorne finally into open revolt. They'll join on with Connington's raid along with some attempt to marry Myrcella (who may be diverted to Storm's End rather than King's Landing) to Aegon. I think Aegon may eventually die and Connington become a loyal backer for Dany.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Daario Naharas was probably the second biggest douche bag in the series for me. The first being the "Darkstar". I know we mainly saw him through Dany's eyes, that of a young girl (it was nicely tempered through Barristan's perspective), but still. Then again, at the end it sounded like he was shot out of a trebuchet, so we might not have to deal with him and his "ladies" anymore.

Hmm I thought Daario was still alive and kicking. I assumed the corpses flung from the trebuchets were victims of the bloody flux. I do recall now that they did say "all six", and didn't ponder that reference too much. I guess that is a downside to listening, rather than reading something like this. You don't have time to leisurely reread and ponder a line or two, because there is always more content coming at you.

[DaddyTorgo]

What'd I miss - who was Abel?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

What'd I miss - who was Abel?

The musician at Winterfell.

[MrBug708]

Mance

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Hmm I thought Daario was still alive and kicking. I assumed the corpses flung from the trebuchets were victims of the bloody flux. I do recall now that they did say "all six", and didn't ponder that reference too much. I guess that is a downside to listening, rather than reading something like this. You don't have time to leisurely reread and ponder a line or two, because there is always more content coming at you.

There is no guarantee that it was Darrio, Hero, and whoever else they had captive were the people that were trebucheted into Meereen's walls. He very well likely could still be alive.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

There are really three options for Jon Snow. One, he's dead. If that's the case, well, then... I have no idea what to think. Two, he's not dead, just wounded and heals up. Three, he dies and Melisandre raises him from the dead like Thoros did Dondarrion and Catelyn after that. I am not sure how I feel about option three, though Dondarrion seemed perfectly fine for a whole there. Even if he does some how make it, I am not sure what he would have left to rule after this madness.

I'm wondering if we had Varamir in the prologue, so that we understand that when a wharg (spelling? I'm listening to the books now and have no idea how any of these things are spelled any more.) dies, that they can occupy the body they have "bonded". That would be the difference here if Melisandre raises Jon from the dead. His mind would have stayed intact as opposed to Cat and Dondarion, who returned changed.

Also about Jon, when Melisandre kept looking to the flames and asking about Azor Ahai, all she saw was Snow. I felt like that was a reference to Jon being Azor Ahai, which threw me because I "knew" that Dany was Azor Ahai. Now I have to think about that some more. That and read the physical copy of the book when my wife sets it down.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I'm wondering if we had Varamir in the prologue, so that we understand that when a wharg (spelling? I'm listening to the books now and have no idea how any of these things are spelled any more.) dies, that they can occupy the body they have "bonded". That would be the difference here if Melisandre raises Jon from the dead. His mind would have stayed intact as opposed to Cat and Dondarion, who returned changed.

That's where my money is as well. I think in one of Melisandre's visions about Jon she said she him as a man, then a wolf, then a man again which could be foreshadowing this and his eventual rebirth somehow.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

I'm wondering if we had Varamir in the prologue, so that we understand that when a wharg (spelling? I'm listening to the books now and have no idea how any of these things are spelled any more.) dies, that they can occupy the body they have "bonded". That would be the difference here if Melisandre raises Jon from the dead. His mind would have stayed intact as opposed to Cat and Dondarion, who returned changed.

Also about Jon, when Melisandre kept looking to the flames and asking about Azor Ahai, all she saw was Snow. I felt like that was a reference to Jon being Azor Ahai, which threw me because I knew that Dany was Azor Ahai. Now I have to think about that some more. That and read the physical copy of the book when my wife sets it down.

Originally Posted by JAG

That's where my money is as well. I think in one of Melisandre's visions about Jon she said she him as a man, then a wolf, then a man again which could be foreshadowing this and his eventual rebirth somehow.

I knew I was forgetting one possibility.

It would be weird if Jon Snow became Ghost. I guess if there was some way to make him a man again, that worked, I could see it, but I am not sure how you could have one of your main characters spend any prolonged time as a wolf. Stranger things have happened, I suppose...

I took her visions to just be about his general warging back and forth with Ghost.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

There is no guarantee that it was Darrio, Hero, and whoever else they had captive were the people that were trebucheted into Meereen's walls. He very well likely could still be alive.

Understood. It was vague enough to mean everything or nothing. Especially in a book with two or three chapters ending with someone fake dying.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

... I didn't realzie who Abel and his women were until about halfway through the rescue attempt. It didn't dawn on me until one of them said "Kneelers" and then I was like... Oh.. Ooooh...

I have to point out here that this was one of those rare times in reading a book where I got "it" before "it" happened.

When I read about Abel and the washer women showing up at Winterfell, just in time to play music and entertain the Bolton host, I recalled Mance doing his bit as a minstrel in previous visits to Winterfell.

That was it for me as far as special insight here. I didn't see any of the rest of this stuff happening. Although I did think that Quentin getting killed by the dragons would be more satisfying than him taming one of both of them. Satisfying as in it would tie up his portion of the Mereenese knot.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The musician at Winterfell.

No that I got

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Mance

Ohhh...duuuuuuuuuhhhhhh

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

No that I got

[flounder]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

-I can't say I was devastated, irritated, annoyed or didn't like the book, because I enjoyed it. I loved reading it. I love being back in that world and back with those characters. There is no denying it. I loved a lot of the chapters and perspectives. That said, there were things I wasn't thrilled with and a few things I feel were missteps. The largest genral problem I had with the book is that it felt like very strings were getting pulled further and further apart as opposed to being tied back together. It felt like pieces were just sort of moving around randomly.

That's pretty much exactly how I feel.

[Mota]

All this discussion is confusing me. I remember how tight the first couple of books were. And then he killed off half the characters that I liked, and kept introducing more ... and more ... and more characters. I honestly am reading the 4th book right now and can't remember who some of these people are. Arianne is the perspective that I'm on right now (near the end of the book), and I honestly don't remember where she was from. I guess that's the product of too many years between books, and too many characters to remember, many of which are just names attached to sigils.

That being said, I still like the 4th book but it feels like it is going down teh Robert Jordan path.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Pretty sure you don't remember because she's a new character at that point. I don't exactly remember how she is introduced, but she is a Dornish princess.

I think another option is that Jon could possibly be Cold Hands version 2.0 - here is what we know about coldhands:

-He's dead.
-He's not on the same side as the wights.
-He used to be a brother of the Night's Watch.

I know someone (my roommate maybe?) suggested that Coldhands was Benjen Stark, but it seems that Bran would be able to corroborate that, and he hasn't, which leads me to believe that Benjen is still missing (dead). I absolutely refuse to believe that Jon Snow is no longer a part of the story, but I really have no idea which of these options makes the most sense.

As for Ramsay/Stannis/Roose/Asha/Theon/etc...

I'm pretty sure Stannis is NOT dead and his host is NOT crushed. What we know for sure:

-Mance and the Spearwives made a break for it with Theon and Jeyne Poole ("Arya"). The attempt falls apart and the whole castle is up in arms after a very short while.
-Stannis's host is stuck in the blizzard and really not doing well. They have Asha Greyjoy captive.
-The Bolton Men have decided to advance out of Winterfell and attack Stannis's host.
-Theon and Jeyne (and no one else, apparently) made it to Stannis's host before they were caught by the Boltons.
-Ramsay sent a letter to Jon Snow and the Wall claiming to know about Mance Raider, Theon and "Arya," and demanded the return of Theon and "Arya." He also claimed that Stannis was dead and his host scattered to the four winds.
-A banker from the Iron Bank of Braavos was with Stannis's host.

That's it. We have no idea if the Bolton men ever even left Winterfell, due to the Theon/Jeyne escape attempt coinciding with the attack and being discovered. This leaves several questions...

-Why is Ramsay writing the letter? What happened to Roose?
-Is Stannis really dead?
-If Stannis is really dead and his host scattered, how in the heck did Ramsay not recover Theon, Asha and "Arya"?
-If Stannis is really dead, what the hell was the point of introducing the Braavosi banker?

I think that Ramsay has realized that Roose might be running out of patience with him. Now that Ramsay has been legitimized, the wedding between "Arya" and Ramsay links the Starks (and therefore the north) to the Boltons. Roose had no problem using Ramsay to gain this power, and then continue to use him going forward. However, Ramsay's treatment of Theon leads Roose to the conclusion that Ramsay may just be a bit too far gone to be able to hang in the game of thrones. If he were to die, "Arya" is still in Bolton hands and Roose has his own legitimate heir waiting in the wings with Fat Walda being preggers. Ramsay, though he is evil as all hell, is not stupid. I think he realizes this, and has planned to eliminate Roose (his only "real" threat to power at the moment, since no one seems to be paying Wyman Manderly enough attention) on his own.

So basically, I think there are two options here - Roose is still using Ramsay as a catspaw and the "Warden of the North," or Ramsay has taken the reins himself and is running the ship solo now.

As for Stannis, I think the fact that the Boltons are still looking for Theon and Arya is clear indication that Stannis's host is still alive and kicking, and that Ramsay is sending "empty" threats up at the wall.

Mance...I'm going to be super disappointed if Mance really gets caught by Ramsay. He's one of my favorite characters, and seems to be much too wily to let himself get caught in this fashion, especially with the extremely chaotic situation at Winterfell. I'm holding out hope that Ramsay got one of the wildling ladies to squeal about Mance (which would also be disappointing to me, but less so than the alternative) and his presence, but that Mance actually got away. I'm also leaning towards the idea that Mance helped Theon and "Arya" (who were both in no condition to track/escape/whatever through the snow and the forest) find Stannis's host, and then he made himself scarce knowing that Stannis has no love for him and would likely kill him. I wouldn't be surprised if he's hiding among the hill tribes of Stannis's army.

Long story short: I think Ramsay is usurping power for himself by offing Roose, captured one of the wildling women from the escape attempt and tortured the identity of Mance out of her. Mance, Theon and "Arya" escaped, and now Ramsay is trying to bluff his way out of Stannis's host getting support from the Wall by penning his threat to the Night's Watch.

[hoopsguy]

Just finished reading all five books, think I started about one week after the 5th book was released.

I haven't completely caught up on this thread, but I found some of the posts in here about the release date for the 5th book pretty funny in hindsight. I'm sure it was very, very frustrating actually living through the shifting deadlines. Guess I'll get that part of the GRRM experience starting now.

Assuming the 6th book is once again tying together all the characters, I think it is going to be hard to give due diligence to the many POVs. In the 2nd half of the 5th book, once events were "live" for everyone it seemed like there were some challenges there:
- no Bran
- no Sansa
- no Brienne (other than a mention with Jaime confirming she is alive)
- no Damphair
- no Samwell
- one Jaime chapter

[JAG]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Just finished reading all five books, think I started about one week after the 5th book was released.

I haven't completely caught up on this thread, but I found some of the posts in here about the release date for the 5th book pretty funny in hindsight. I'm sure it was very, very frustrating actually living through the shifting deadlines. Guess I'll get that part of the GRRM experience starting now.

Assuming the 6th book is once again tying together all the characters, I think it is going to be hard to give due diligence to the many POVs. In the 2nd half of the 5th book, once events were "live" for everyone it seemed like there were some challenges there:
- no Bran
- no Sansa
- no Brienne (other than a mention with Jaime confirming she is alive)
- no Damphair
- no Samwell
- one Jaime chapter

Two thoughts on that:

1. A lot of the POV characters look like they're going to be together and overlap, Brienne and Jaime, Tyrion and Dany (that could save a lot of space) and probably Victarion before long, Jon may not have a lot to contribute depending on what happens there, and so on.

2. He'll need an 8th (and possibly more than that) book to finish things because there's just too much left to tell.

[spleen1015]

I just managed to finish the 5th book this morning.

I agree with a lot of the thoughts that have been presented by you guys.

One thing that really pisses me off is how Tyrion's story played out in this book. Don't leave us wondering where he is for the entirety of book 4, then in book 5 show that he is well on his way to meeting up with Dany and not have the two of them meet by the end of the book.

[DaddyTorgo]

Game of Thrones RPG - CollegeHumor Video

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Mota

I haven't read the new book yet, but I've been stuck on the 4th book for nearly a year. I just don't enjoy it, he's introduced too many characters over the years and they're just not as interesting as the original characters that are mostly killed off. I agree about the Robert Jordan feeling that he's losing control of the story, it used to be about the Starks and all the stuff happening with the kingdom, now it's way more than that, but not nearly as focused so you don't feel for the characters like you used to. I don't know why I should care about Brienne, but she sure as heck is getting a lot of pages dedicated to her.

Just finished the book. Comment on this...

Spoiler

I don't get your Brienne comment. I was expecting Brienne chapters when I read your comment two months ago. Now that I am done, I have no Brienne chapters at all?!? Okay, sure, the Jaime reference, I get it, but seriously, that's "a lot of pages dedicated to her"?

Just curious what that was all about...

[JAG]

He's talking about book 4.

[Chief Rum]

Ah ha...

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

As one might guess from my prior post, I finally got around to finishing "Dance With Dragons" over the weekend.

Firstly, I just finished reading books 1 through 5 last night, and it's amazing how close my feelings are to yours re: most of the characters.

-I can't say I was devastated, irritated, annoyed or didn't like the book, because I enjoyed it. I loved reading it. I love being back in that world and back with those characters. There is no denying it. I loved a lot of the chapters and perspectives. That said, there were things I wasn't thrilled with and a few things I feel were missteps. The largest genral problem I had with the book is that it felt like very strings were getting pulled further and further apart as opposed to being tied back together. It felt like pieces were just sort of moving around randomly.

Having read the book immediately after the other 4 it was different to me than most I imagine, but book 5 was definitely a much more enjoyable read than book 4. I feel like 'Dragons' biggest issue was the same as book 4 - there was no satisying climax. It just sort of slowly builds, and finishes with a 'To Be Continued' tag. The strength of book 3 was that, despite being 'to be continued' as well, man, the climax. That's been the biggest weakness IMO.

I don't have high hopes for the guy. I like Jon Connington, I didn't mind his chapters, since I liked the Gold Company stuff and liked them going back to Westeros.

I also don't have high hopes for Aegon, and much like you, I suspect Jon Connington is the key character here, not Aegon.

- While the Tyrion character still remains great, much of what did or was forced to do in this book was either dull or annoying. The whole ride down the river with Griff through that crazy, misty place with the giant turtles and the greyskin monsters didn't do much for me. I like seeing various parts of the Land Across The Narrow Sea and understand that that world is more mystical and magical than Westeros, but that particular stretch didn't do much for me. Penny was and remains deeply irritating.

Agree 100%. Love Tyrion, but in 'Dragons' some of his chapters were a slog, outside of his dialouge.

- I found the Bran stuff very dull, but there wasn't a lot of it.

Again, agree 100%. I'm not a fantasy guy at all outside of this series, and Bran's story thus far has been the one that signifies most of what I thought I wouldn't like about the fantasy genre. I don't hate it, but it's a bit too weird for me.

- At first I wasn't too thrilled with the Theon chapters, but about half way through, once they got settled at Winterfell, I really enjoyed them. Ramsay Bolton has to take the mantle as the most evil character in the books at the moment. He trumps the like of Viserys and Gregor. I didn't realzie who Abel and his women were until about halfway through the rescue attempt. It didn't dawn on me until one of them said "Kneelers" and then I was like... Oh.. Ooooh...

Yeah, the Mance/Abel thing was a shock to me, but not as big a shock as me actually sorta beginning to not hate Theon again.

- Not enough Davos. I really like Davos. His scene with Lord Manderly in private was a favorite. At first I was stunned by the show the Manderlys put on. I couldn't believe they were being so lame and ridiculous with the Freys and Boltons. I was thrilled when they revealed it was all an act and that they were good, loyal Stark bannermen. I also liked the fact that they apparently killed those Freys who were with them and had them baked into those "pork" pies at the wedding feast that Lord Manderly kept downing and downing and downing. It will be interesting to see if Davos can find Rickon, Osha and Shaggy Dog. An interesting group.

I think Davos is my favourite character overall. I thought he was dead in book 4 until he was mentioned in the author's notes at the end, so it was great to see him still kicking but yeah, disappointed he wasn't in it more.

- I went back and forth on the Dany stuff. Some of it I really enjoyed, some of it I didn't.

Dany's chapters have been my least favourite of the major characters since the beginning, and little happened to change it, even bringing Tyrion and Selmy over to her side of the world didn't do much to change that. I just found myself wanting her to go to Westeros already, and not really caring much at all for this slave freeing mother queen storyline. Still, I probably enjoyed her more in 'Dragons' than any of the other books.

- I enjoyed the Aarya chapters. Of all the characters, in her two or so chapters, it felt like she made some of the biggest progress.

Probably the one point I personally don't agree with... I loved her with the Hound, but I didn't dig this Faceless Men stuff in Braavos on the whole, and I found some of her chapters with the Brotherhood to be a drag too - in fact, throughout the books, she just seems to get dragged around or be running to one place to the other, without ever getting there.

- I liked the Cersei chapters well enough.

Yes, surprisingly. I hope Martin keeps her unlikeable to be honest.

Jaimie disappearing with Brienne who, presumably, was sent to kill him or lead him to his death.

The single most frustrating part for me was the lack of Jamie chapters. I never expected to like him - I ranked him with Cersei and Joff with characters I'd most like to see die - but I really enjoyed the Jamie/Brienne chapters.