Middle East - what's next

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by rowech

They're wrong a lot of the time. We should come out and say they're wrong when they're wrong. We shouldn't treat them any different just because they're Israel. That said, there's no way we should EVER abandon them as an ally.

My comment was said mostly tongue-in-cheek but I do find it amazing how much more possible a prophecy involving Israel standing alone against everyone seems to be becoming. You can't run your policy because of it though.

Why shouldn't we abandon them as an ally? If it stops being in our best-interest right now to support them, we absolutely should abandon them, bibical prophecies be damned. Sorry I don't buy into the whole religious-based argument.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Not any more. Egypt has apparently opened their side of Gaza and are claiming it's permanent.

It's said its temporary according to the article I posted:

"Egypt declared it was temporarily opening a crossing into the Palestinian territory after a raid on an aid flotilla that ended with Israeli soldiers killing nine activists."

"Egypt, which has enforced the blockade with Israel since Hamas militants seized control of Gaza in 2007, said it was opening the border for several days to allow aid into the area as a humanitarian gesture. It was unclear, however, when Hamas guards at the frontier would let people out. "

[JPhillips]

Well there are conflicting reports. From Reuters:

An Egyptian security source told Reuters: "Egypt opened its border with the Gaza Strip on Tuesday to allow humanitarian and medical aid to enter the Strip.

"The border will remain open for an unlimited time," the source said, letting Palestinians enter and leave Egypt

[rowech]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Why shouldn't we abandon them as an ally? If it stops being in our best-interest right now to support them, we absolutely should abandon them, bibical prophecies be damned. Sorry I don't buy into the whole religious-based argument.

Where is our ally in the Middle East without them?

[nole4sho]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Israel's Unjustifiable, No-Win Move - International - The Atlantic

Basically, to draw a crude analogy, I see Israel as like a guy whose next door neighbor keeps on picking on him, overturning his trashcans, stealing his newspapers, throwing rocks at his dog, etc.

From my point of view, Israel is "right" in general, and Israel's foes are "wrong."

But then, this is like the poor guy just snapping and, upon seeing his "wrong" neighbor standing on the corner walking toward his house, starting to shoot at him or something while the guy is still on the sidewalk.

In the grand scheme of things, Israel is "right." But, in this particular incident, they are totally in the wrong.

I find fault with this analogy due to the fact Israel was given their country. If your neighbor was kicked out of his house and your new neighbors were arrogant would you be nice too them? Your old neighbors would cry foul and find some way to seek retribution for thee offense.

I liken Israel to someone who bullies others knowing that they have a big brother willing to fight their battles for them. Has Israel always been the bully? No, but I do not blame the offended people of the region for revolting against Western imperialism.

[Galaxy]

http://www.slate.com/id/2255572/?GT1=38001

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Well there are conflicting reports. From Reuters:

Interesting. I'm guessing Egypt will be inspecting every piece of cargo.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by nole4sho

I find fault with this analogy due to the fact Israel was given their country. If your neighbor was kicked out of his house and your new neighbors were arrogant would you be nice too them? Your old neighbors would cry foul and find some way to seek retribution for thee offense.

I liken Israel to someone who bullies others knowing that they have a big brother willing to fight their battles for them. Has Israel always been the bully? No, but I do not blame the offended people of the region for revolting against Western imperialism.

I don't see Israel as the bully. A bully in this case would be someone who is trying to eliminate you without any reason to stop, not just because they're trying to protect and defend its people and country. In fact, I think if Israel didn't have the US backing, they would be a lot more aggressive. Israel seems like they've been a lot more aggressive since Obama came into office. I don't know if something is happening between the two governments that is causing this.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I don't see Israel as the bully. A bully in this case would be someone who is trying to eliminate you without any reason to stop, not just because they're trying to protect and defend its people and country.

Throw in their illegal expansion and I think the bully label starts to fit a lot more.

In fact, I think if Israel didn't have the US backing, they would be a lot more aggressive. Israel seems like they've been a lot more aggressive since Obama came into office. I don't know if something is happening between the two governments that is causing this.

Lately they've been more aggressive, but let's not forget their history either. I think they are showing more of a tendancy to act alone these days though, no question. They understand the position they have the United States in. What other US ally could act contrary to the US's wishes and know they can get away with it unscathed?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

My comment was said mostly tongue-in-cheek but I do find it amazing how much more possible a prophecy involving Israel standing alone against everyone seems to be becoming.

I just find it amazing that I caught the tongue-in-cheek of your remark & yet there were apparently some people who didn't.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Throw in their illegal expansion and I think the bully label starts to fit a lot more.


Lately they've been more aggressive, but let's not forget their history either. I think they are showing more of a tendancy to act alone these days though, no question. They understand the position they have the United States in. What other US ally could act contrary to the US's wishes and know they can get away with it unscathed?

Lets say Israel gives up all claim to the "illegal expansion" land (or maybe agree to the two-state solution), would that stop the Arab nations from wanting to destroy them?

[Groundhog]

Uh oh. Clinton throwing around terms like "untenable" and "unacceptable" in regards to the "situation in Garza". It appears that she has stopped short of smacking their bottoms and sending Israel to their bedroom with no supper.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

I tihnk the problems is that for a significant portion of the Religiosu Right, the entire reason for their support of Israel's existence is that it has to exist for Armageddon to kick off. So, to be blunt, somebody seriously saying something to that effect wouldn't shock me.

Yeah. I've seen it explicity stated as such more than a few times over the past couple of years.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by rowech

Where is our ally in the Middle East without them?

Well, you know, we kinda have a fellow NATO member in the region.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Considering there's evidence that in the aftermath of 9/11 and before the Iraq War that Saudi Arabia and a host of other countries were ready to finally recognize Israel and such, but that fell apart for a variety of reasons, yes, I think there's ample reason to believe so. Yes, for the next generation or so would there be political leaders trying to make hay over Israel's existence? Of course. But, both Israeli and Arabic leaders have to both stop waving the bloody shirt to steal a phrase from the Civil War and in time, their people will as well.

Any good sites/sources about Saudi Arabia and the other nations ready to recognize Israel? (Not questioning you, just don't remember hearing this.)

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Uh oh. Clinton throwing around terms like "untenable" and "unacceptable" in regards to the "situation in Garza". It appears that she has stopped short of smacking their bottoms and sending Israel to their bedroom with no supper.

I just don't see why Israel is 100% the bad guy here.

The Turks didn't act innocently either.

Why try to run the blockade and not allow Israel or Egypt to inspect the cargo? If you got nothing to hide, why ignore it? They were warned ahead of them they wouldn't be allowed through. Throw on top of this that you know Israel doesn't take these things lightly. Both sides seem stupid and arrogant.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I just don't see why Israel is 100% the bad guy here.

The Turks didn't act innocently either.

Why try to run the blockade and not allow Israel or Egypt to inspect the cargo? If you got nothing to hide, why ignore it? They were warned ahead of them they wouldn't be allowed through. Throw on top of this that you know Israel doesn't take these things lightly. Both sides seem stupid and arrogant.

Don't get me wrong, I know the Turks aren't innocent here. They knew Israel would be forced to act and do something unpopular. I really doubt they expected people to die however.

The anti-Israel crowd were slow learners, but they are learning how to play the propaganda war and get people on their side. Some ships trying to break a blockade has proven a million times more successful than launching rockets into Israel.

Israel should have been a lot smarter, but again they showed that they simply don't care. Without fear of censure from the US, they act as they wish. The outcry from other nations and the UN doesn't mean a thing to them, they know it will probably all die down soon enough, like it has the other times.

I mean, they've been firing on Palestinian fishing boats, openly admitting that the Gaza blockade is an attempt to get Palestine's elected government voted out, annexing Palestinian lands and cutting off settlements from water, roads, and electricity, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on and on. They get away with it, so why would they stop?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Don't get me wrong, I know the Turks aren't innocent here. They knew Israel would be forced to act and do something unpopular. I really doubt they expected people to die however.

The anti-Israel crowd were slow learners, but they are learning how to play the propaganda war and get people on their side. Some ships trying to break a blockade has proven a million times more successful than launching rockets into Israel.

Israel should have been a lot smarter, but again they showed that they simply don't care. Without fear of censure from the US, they act as they wish. The outcry from other nations and the UN doesn't mean a thing to them, they know it will probably all die down soon enough, like it has the other times.

I mean, they've been firing on Palestinian fishing boats, openly admitting that the Gaza blockade is an attempt to get Palestine's elected government voted out, annexing Palestinian lands and cutting off settlements from water, roads, and electricity, etc. etc. etc. The list goes on and on. They get away with it, so why would they stop?

I can understand your point. I just don't like how Israel is the "bad guy" in all these cases. They aren't the good guy either, but this recent situation just seems like Turkey set it up from the get-go.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

I can understand your point. I just don't like how Israel is the "bad guy" in all these cases. They aren't the good guy either, but this recent situation just seems like Turkey set it up from the get-go.

Turkey opened the door, but Israel still chose to drive a bulldozer through it. But tensions have been boiling between the two nations for awhile now, thanks to petty little diplomatic insults like this:

Turkey protests Israel's insult, calls for apology [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]

The reason why Israel gets painted as the bad guy by some (certainly not all) is because, like I said above, this is just the latest in a long line of incidents they'll get away with, all while still claiming the moral high ground, and knowing that America will continue to back them regardless.

Judging from most of the people I've spoken to IRL who take the pro-Israel no-matter-what stance, it basically boils down to the fact that they hate and distrust Muslims, and really don't give a damn what Israel does to them. It's hard to justify their actions in any other way once you drill down into the nitty-gritty details.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Turkey opened the door, but Israel still chose to drive a bulldozer through it. But tensions have been boiling between the two nations for awhile now, thanks to petty little diplomatic insults like this:

Turkey protests Israel's insult, calls for apology [ WORLD BULLETIN- TURKEY NEWS, WORLD NEWS ]

The reason why Israel gets painted as the bad guy by some (certainly not all) is because, like I said above, this is just the latest in a long line of incidents they'll get away with, all while still claiming the moral high ground, and knowing that America will continue to back them regardless.

Judging from most of the people I've spoken to IRL who take the pro-Israel no-matter-what stance, it basically boils down to the fact that they hate and distrust Muslims, and really don't give a damn what Israel does to them. It's hard to justify their actions in any other way once you drill down into the nitty-gritty details.

Turkish aid group had terror ties - Europe- msnbc.com

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Turkish aid group had terror ties - Europe- msnbc.com

Not surprising, given the different folks on board. Still doesn't excuse anything. What are the odds of Israel's FULL videotape of the exercise getting out, rather than the short pro-Israel footage they released? Naturally, they confiscated all film and video from the journalists and others on board the ships after they got them to Israel.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/eu...530449379.html

Al Jazeera's Jamal Elshayyal, who reported from the ship during the raid, confirmed that live ammunition had been used by Israeli commandos as they stormed the ship. He said that he witnessed some of the killings, and confirmed that at least "one person was shot through the top of the head from [the helicopter] above" ... "The first shots [coming from Israeli boats at sea] were tear gas, sound grenades and rubber coated steel bullets," said Eshayyal. "Live shots came five minutes after that. There was definitely live fire from the air and from the sea as well." He confirmed that some passengers took apart some of the ship's railings to defend themselves as they saw the Israeli soldiers approaching. "After the shooting and the first deaths, people put up white flags and signs in English and Hebrew," he said. "An Israeli [on the ship] asked the soldiers to take away the injured, but they did not and the injured died on the ship."

And then of course there's the US citizen who was shot once in the chest, and four times in the head from close range...

American Furkan Dogan Killed on Gaza Aid Flotilla - ABC News

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Turkish aid group had terror ties - Europe- msnbc.com

Though, interestingly: Under Scrutiny, IDF Retracts Claims About Flotilla’s Al Qaeda Links

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Didn't see the thwarted terror attack mentioned. Sounds somewhat similar to the attacks in India in that they were looking to sneak in via water transport.

FOXNews.com - Israel Navy Kills 4 Palestinian Militants Off Gaza

[JediKooter]

This is what happens when you have over 6 million of your people exterminated by the Nazis. You have Israel who is just not going to take shit from anyone, at all. It's kind of like the kid who was bullied all the time in school and decides to fight back, but, becomes an insufferable asshole in the process.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Interesting read. Opinion of what's happening between Israel and other countries and who's at fault......

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinio...cle2559280.ece

[JPhillips]

FYI: That appears to be a membership only site.

[Edward64]

Nice developments according to Friedman. Hope yet at least for the West Bank.

Op-Ed Columnist - The Real Palestinian Revolution - NYTimes.com

The expansion of the Al-Quds Index is part of a broader set of changes initiated in the West Bank in the last few years under the leadership of Prime Minister Salam Fayyad, the former World Bank economist who has unleashed a real Palestinian “revolution.” It is a revolution based on building Palestinian capacity and institutions not just resisting Israeli occupation, on the theory that if the Palestinians can build a real economy, a professional security force and an effective, transparent government bureaucracy it will eventually become impossible for Israel to deny the Palestinians a state in the West Bank and Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem.

“I have to admit, we, the private sector, have changed,” said Hulileh. “The mood used to be all the time to complain and say there is nothing we can do. And then the politicians were trying to create this atmosphere of resistance — resistance meant no development under occupation.”

Fayyad and his boss, President Mahmoud Abbas, changed that. Now the mood, said Hulileh, is that improving the Palestinian economy “is what will enable you to resist and be steadfast. Fayyad said to us: ‘You, the business community, are not responsible for ending occupation. You are responsible for employing people and getting ready for the state. And that means you have to be part of the global world, to export and import, so when the state will come you will not have a garbage yard. You will be ready.’ ”

The most senior Israeli military people told me the new security force that Fayyad has built is the real deal — real enough that Israel has taken down most of the checkpoints inside the West Bank. So internal commerce and investment are starting to flow, and even some Gazans are moving there. “We may not be too far from a point of inflection,” Fayyad said to me.
:
:
The most important thing President Obama can do when he meets Israel’s prime minister, Bibi Netanyahu, on July 6 is to nudge him to begin gradually ceding control of major West Bank Palestinian cities to the Palestinian Authority so that Fayyad can show his people, as he puts it, that what he is building is an independent state “not an exercise in adapting to the permanence of occupation” — and so that Israel can test if the new Palestinian security forces really can keep the peace without Israel making nighttime raids. Nothing would strengthen Fayyadism more than that.

[JonInMiddleGA]

My Way News - France declares war against al-Qaida

I agree with both the sentiment & their attack on a North African base camp, but that headline struck me as one of the most unexpectedly funny things I've seen in a while.

[Groundhog]

I fully expect to see a 'My Ways News - France surrenders to al-Qaida' headline within the next 24 hours.

[molson]

Wow, so all it took for the French to finally give a shit about al-Qaida is the death of a 78-year old Frenchman.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Why shouldn't we abandon them as an ally? If it stops being in our best-interest right now to support them, we absolutely should abandon them, bibical prophecies be damned. Sorry I don't buy into the whole religious-based argument.

(Realize it's a 2-month old post, and everyone has their own prior opinions on Israel being different than political theory when it comes to any other country, but...) At a certain point you can't pick and choose "allies" based on realpolitik flavor of the month. Abandoning them (or anyone) as an ally may be in our best interest and to our benefit in the short term, but it can ruin our trust with other "allies" and the ability to cultivate new ones.

On Israel in particular, are we supposed to abandon a democracy that's generally aligned with our basic principles in favor of whom, a repressive dictatorship like Saudi Arabia that funds the proselytizers of radical islam, or one in Iran run by a repressive cabal that violently cracks down on its own people when they want to vote for their own choice?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I fully expect to see a 'My Ways News - France surrenders to al-Qaida' headline within the next 24 hours.

[DeToxRox]

So what are the chances Israel actually bombs Iran this weekend? I really cannot see it happening but I guess in the Middle East anything can happen.

[Dutch]

This is as good a place as any, I guess.

Latest crisis in the Middle East.

Saudi Arabia-Iran row spreads to other nations
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/04/middle...ext/index.html

[Edward64]

Yup. I like how Saudi Arabia is taking more of a leadership/forceful role here.

Check out the military stats of both countries. SA spends more but Iran has "more" quantity.

Iran vs Saudi Arabia Military Stats Compared

[RainMaker]

Terrible story out of Syria.

Chemical attack kills dozens in Syria as victims foam at the mouth, activists say - The Washington Post