Werewolf XCVI: The Dark One and The Order of Righteousness (GAME OVER EVIL WINS)

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

It has to do with the fact that I think the math reflects poorly on jailing people.

Sounds like an easy plan to get led around by wolves.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Thanks for taking the quote out of context.

The "conspiracy theory" is that Clap/Abe let out a roled villager in order to gain trust. As I said, but you did not quote, conspiracy theories are often true in this game. But it is *at least as likely* that he did it to help the village.

No, I don't think it is out of context at all. You made the statement and then put a weak qualifier on it and are now stressing the qualifier rather than the statement.

But just to be fair then: Do you believe that there is no evidence other than clap's play yesterday to believe that Abe could be bad?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by path12

No, I don't think it is out of context at all. You made the statement and then put a weak qualifier on it and are now stressing the qualifier rather than the statement.

But just to be fair then: Do you believe that there is no evidence other than clap's play yesterday to believe that Abe could be bad?

I'll answer that. I think there is some. But not much compared with the evidence that we (clap/me) are a villager.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by path12

No, I don't think it is out of context at all. You made the statement and then put a weak qualifier on it and are now stressing the qualifier rather than the statement.

But just to be fair then: Do you believe that there is no evidence other than clap's play yesterday to believe that Abe could be bad?

Evidence? No. I think there is a theory where you could imagine his role and actions were done by wolves.

I suppose the fact that Tyrith seemed to be trying to get people off of Clap is the best evidence there is. I think it's outweighed by all the things pointing to villager to me, but I will admit that's something other than a theory.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Lathum, other than that one streak where I was looking for a candidate and mentioned four different names, when was i all over the place?

yesterday you were all about sndvls, then switched to clap, now you are off both of them.

[Telle]

As of post #1152:

3 - Abe lynch - path (1042), MartinD (1045), USFLTechmo (1074)
3 - Autum lynch - SnDvls (1050), Lathum (1077), Barkeep (1108)
6 - Abe jail - RendeR (1056), Chief Rum (1060), Passacaglia (1062), The Jackal (1063), Lerriuqs (1065), KWhit (1095)
3 - DaddyTorgo jail - Autumn (1087), Abe (1112), Telle (1126)

[path12]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I'll answer that. I think there is some. But not much compared with the evidence that we (clap/me) are a villager.

Abe, I love you. But given that I have voted to lynch you I don't know if I'm willing to believe that clap did it strictly out of altruism.

But for the record, I think the most damning evidence (such as it is) against you is Tyrith's defense of you/clap late yesterday.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Telle

As of post #1152:

3 - Abe lynch - path (1042), MartinD (1045), USFLTechmo (1074)
3 - Autum lynch - SnDvls (1050), Lathum (1077), Barkeep (1108)
6 - Abe jail - RendeR (1056), Chief Rum (1060), Passacaglia (1062), The Jackal (1063), Lerriuqs (1065), KWhit (1095)
3 - DaddyTorgo jail - Autumn (1087), Abe (1112), Telle (1126)

I have:

Vote Count (Deadline 11p):

Abe Jail - 6 - RendeR (1056), CR (1060), Pass (1062), Jackal (1063), lerriuqs (1065), KWhit (1095)
Abe Lynch - 4 - Path (1042), Martin (1045), USFLTecmo (1074), BK (1108)
DaddyTorgo Jail - 3 - Autumn (1087), Abe (1112), Telle (1126)
Autumn Lynch - 2 - SnDvls (1050), Lathum (1077)


Yet to Vote: DT, Saldana

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Evidence? No. I think there is a theory where you could imagine his role and actions were done by wolves.

I suppose the fact that Tyrith seemed to be trying to get people off of Clap is the best evidence there is. I think it's outweighed by all the things pointing to villager to me, but I will admit that's something other than a theory.

I think it more likely that a "free someone from jail" role would be a wolf role, to be honest. As I said last night, I think the jail mechanic is seriously powerful for the village, and to balance that I could totally see dubb making a wolf secret role who could free someone.

But if that were the case, would clap use it to free a villager instead of saving it to clear a wolf later? Yes, but only to potentially try to save his own skin and keep him from going to jail and eventually being outed as a wolf.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Lathum

yesterday you were all about sndvls, then switched to clap, now you are off both of them.

I have to admit that I find this a bit amusing. My admittedly limited experience playing wtih you has shown me that you switch candidates faster than I can keep track of them. Just when I'm thinking about one I find you're already chasing another one. So I just had to say that amused me.

I think it's overstating the case to say I was "all over" anybody. Maybe becuase there's not a lot of people suggesting candidates this game it seems like that.

I picked on Sndvls yesterday because he was the only one that had really pinged me at all and I wanted something to vote on. Me, and everybody else in the world was staring at Clap when he seemed to go crazy and wolfish on us. Since Pass gave his explanation I've decided that I think I believe Pass's explanation and Clap/Abe's probable innocence.

I explained earlier why I didn't go after Sndvl today. It seems pretty much like normal werewolf to me. But in a game where basically all we've talked about the whole game is Barkeep, Clap/Abe and Pass I suppose it's a bit wild.

[path12]

Autumn, I think the circumstances behind the breakout of Pass are 50/50 as to whether they point to innocence or guilt.

a) clap is a wolf and finds out Pass is whoever he is that can kill the Dark One. He breaks him out of jail in order to set him up for a night kill.

b) clap is good, finds out that Pass is whoever he is that can kill the Dark One. Despite being under heat during the day, he trusts that this move will clear him.

I can see both. I tend to believe a is more likely than b. And I am just fine with a 50/50 shot at a wolf by giving a lynch vote.

That's where I stand. We keep jailing people we keep letting the wolves get on with the night kills and we get worn down. Not to mention the fact that the only evidence we have that it is a one-time ability is what Abe says, and let's face it -- he's got a little bit of an agenda.

Am I being overly aggressive? Maybe, but I've always held that is the best way to play a vanilla role, since I'm not getting any info otherwise.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by KWhit

I think it more likely that a "free someone from jail" role would be a wolf role, to be honest. As I said last night, I think the jail mechanic is seriously powerful for the village, and to balance that I could totally see dubb making a wolf secret role who could free someone.

But if that were the case, would clap use it to free a villager instead of saving it to clear a wolf later? Yes, but only to potentially try to save his own skin and keep him from going to jail and eventually being outed as a wolf.

I hate to keep belaboring this discussion, but I really disagree with this point. Why would a wolf prison guard have the ability to PM with prisoners? What advantage would that give him? Whereas PMing from a villager standpoint is a huge plus that would allow them to secretly find out the prisoner's role and release them, while still allowing for fake wolf reveals. I completely disagree that this is likely a wolf role. That's my main reason for believing Abe, because I think it suits too well a villager role, whereas the wolves *already* can break people out of jail.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I have to admit that I find this a bit amusing. My admittedly limited experience playing wtih you has shown me that you switch candidates faster than I can keep track of them. Just when I'm thinking about one I find you're already chasing another one. So I just had to say that amused me.

i'm actually the complete opposite.

I tend to hone in on someone and not let go

[SnDvls]

Sorry this is so long

Originally Posted by Autumn

I've just read back through all of Tyrith's posts. I think it's clear that what pinged Schmidty was Tyrith seeming to be pushing for a duke to pass, at least as Schmidty read it. He certainly seemed desperate to get people off of Clap. With that in mind I am considering Pass as my highest King candidate at this point.

I'd like to hear more about his shenanigans so I will hold off on my vote though.

here he puts his support behind Pass but doesn't vote...yet

Originally Posted by Autumn

I think Tyrith's very vocal reluctance to go after BK does not speak well for Barkeep. It could be nothing but distraction and commentary, but I'm certainly not going to trust BK over others given that.

Throws a shot at Barkeep, but doesn't vote for lynch or jail

Originally Posted by Autumn

Actually I'll put my vote out there so it can be considered by others. I of course will be willing to alter it especially based on whatever we hear about his escape today.

VOTE TO ELECT PASSACAGLIA KING

finally votes Pass

Originally Posted by Autumn

I don't think it makes sense to jail Abe. I think it makes sense to lynch him and find out his allegiance right away. That will give us a lot of info that jailing him will not.

I support jailing people we don't have much of a read on. I don't think we can ask for a better read than what we have on Clap.

feels that now Abe should be #1 target and should lynch him

Originally Posted by Autumn

I certainly want to hear more, and have plenty of time to change my vote. I think it seems pretty clear from Tyrith's posts though that he was very happy to have Pass jailed or lynched, so as far as I can see he's the closest to someone cleared we have. Certainly seems better to me than randomly picking someone.

I think ti's likely someone with an unlisted role aided Pass in getting out and he's waiting hoping that they will reveal themselves. I kind of doubt that the wolves have *another* ability to release someone from prison since they already have that power, ti would seem a bit lopsided.

not much here, still showing support for Pass

Originally Posted by Autumn

unvote passacaglia for king

That explanation certainly hasn't made me feel better about Pass at this point.

I'm not quite sure what to make of it but with those two tied together I'm no longer interested in electing Pass.

all of the sudden Pass isn't #1 for king

Originally Posted by Autumn

I would suggest anyone who has a counterclaim to Pass's role make that counterreveal very early today. We have a chance at forming a COT or rooting out a wolf right here and someone "revealing" at the last moment would be bad form, I think.

If no one is coming out soon I will be moving back to voting Pass as King I think. It would bump Abe up to a trusted list to my mind also, though it's remotely possible he's still bad.

STill, if both are good I have to think about Tyrith's behavior to make any sense of it.

covering his butt in case he gets caught as he goes back and forth in his decision to back or not back Pass

Originally Posted by Autumn

If Pass told Abe/Clap that he was Arbitro then I don't know why Clap would release him if Clap was a wolf. At that point the DO was alive and they could have night killed Pass and taken care of that threat. THe only possibility I can see there is if Clap had already told Pass that he could release him, and then didn't want to renege and have pass publish a damning story.

But that seems unlikely. I think either Pass/Abe are both villager or both wolves.

now has Pass & Abe in the same camp...does he trust them both or neither???

Originally Posted by Autumn

Well, unless someone counter reveals as Arbitro I don't think we need to lynch.

now it's ok not to lynch...after he just said we needed to lynch

Originally Posted by Autumn

Oh you're right, only the DO can night kill in jail. I didn't realize that. Well, it's still possible they could have done so.

I basically agree that Clap/Abe is still not quite cleared, especially given Tyrith's seeming desire to clear him. But I keep thinking that it's unlikely a wolf would have that role that Clap/Abe seems to have.

VOTE TO ELECT PASSACAGLIA KING

Again, I hope if anyone has a counter reveal they will do it early.

back to Pass being OK again and votes him King

Originally Posted by Autumn

Very slow. I can see the case on Abe, but I'd lke to see another candidate in the offering as well. I'm going to have to think to come upiwth one I guess.

back to Abe being bad and Pass good...huh???

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'm going to be gone until after King deadline, but it seems like that's mostly settled at this point. I'm not sure where I'll vote for jail/lynch but hopefully will come up with something by then.

now back to a jail or lynch decision

basically soon after this I voted as well

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by path12

Autumn, I think the circumstances behind the breakout of Pass are 50/50 as to whether they point to innocence or guilt.

a) clap is a wolf and finds out Pass is whoever he is that can kill the Dark One. He breaks him out of jail in order to set him up for a night kill.

Wel, why bother setting him up for a night kill? He's already in jail, effectivel out of the game and if he was later released he could be killed.

So, I dont agree with that point but I agree that he might have done it to curry favor or get himself off the vote.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Lathum

i'm actually the complete opposite.

I tend to hone in on someone and not let go

Well, you may see it that way but my first few games with you I had to get used to the fact that you threw out names and suspicions left and right. You probably don't consider it "being on" someone since you're just thinking out loud, but it made me think you were a wolf constantly back then.

But it's beside the point right now.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

BTW here we are again going down the jail route. Why? I just don't get this course of action after we've already failed with it.

Originally Posted by Lathum

i'm actually the complete opposite.

I tend to hone in on someone and not let go

I can STRONGLY attest to this. he's a fucking pit bull with a steak.

[DaddyTorgo]

i never voted to jail myself.

still time for me to move it. i'm around.

VOTE JAIL ABE

[Autumn]

SnDvls, I think that list is missing the context of what we were learning over the day. Yes, after Pass came out saying that Clap of all people had released him I was thrown for a loop and took my king vote away. We all were assuming at that point that Clap was bad after his crazy talk. After hearing Pass's explanation later in the day I switched back to how I feel now.

And I wasn't at all suggesting lynching BK as I think I made clear, jut that he wasn't a good King candidate.

[RendeR]

err, not sure why the BK post is quoted there...please ignore that its not relevant.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Autumn

SnDvls, I think that list is missing the context of what we were learning over the day. Yes, after Pass came out saying that Clap of all people had released him I was thrown for a loop and took my king vote away. We all were assuming at that point that Clap was bad after his crazy talk. After hearing Pass's explanation later in the day I switched back to how I feel now.

And I wasn't at all suggesting lynching BK as I think I made clear, jut that he wasn't a good King candidate.

you clearly said you didn't "trust" Barkeep because of Tyrith (a known wolf). Why not put a lynch or jail vote on him then?

You ping ponged all day...the posts show it.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Wel, why bother setting him up for a night kill? He's already in jail, effectivel out of the game and if he was later released he could be killed.

So, I dont agree with that point but I agree that he might have done it to curry favor or get himself off the vote.

Well, if he is cleared by the king then he is a likely bodyguard target that night, which gives some more credence to the idea of breaking him out without clearing him in order to kill him that night. But I'll concede that there are multiple reasons that clap (as a wolf) might want to break Pass (whoever his name is) out of jail.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

you clearly said you didn't "trust" Barkeep because of Tyrith (a known wolf). Why not put a lynch or jail vote on him then?

You ping ponged all day...the posts show it.

No, I didn't say that. I said:

"I think Tyrith's very vocal reluctance to go after BK does not speak well for Barkeep. It could be nothing but distraction and commentary, but I'm certainly not going to trust BK over others given that."

I'm certainly not going to trust BK over others. FOR A KING VOTE. I'm not going to lynch or jail him over that.

[Autumn]

I'd love to hear what anyone else makes of Sndvl's log, because I think it very clearly shows, with some context, that I didn't ping pong. But I do not want to get in a lengthy back and forth about it if no one else agrees with what he wrote.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Autumn

No, I didn't say that. I said:

"I think Tyrith's very vocal reluctance to go after BK does not speak well for Barkeep. It could be nothing but distraction and commentary, but I'm certainly not going to trust BK over others given that."

I'm certainly not going to trust BK over others. FOR A KING VOTE. I'm not going to lynch or jail him over that.

you can't modify your post...you didn't trust him

if you didn't trust him for King why would you trust him to not be lynched or jailed? Tyrith was a known wolf at the time of your post? Just doesn't make sense.

[SnDvls]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'd love to hear what anyone else makes of Sndvl's log, because I think it very clearly shows, with some context, that I didn't ping pong. But I do not want to get in a lengthy back and forth about it if no one else agrees with what he wrote.

I think Lathum already said he saw the flip flopping / ping ponging too. Not to put words in his mouth.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by SnDvls

you can't modify your post...you didn't trust him

if you didn't trust him for King why would you trust him to not be lynched or jailed? Tyrith was a known wolf at the time of your post? Just doesn't make sense.

It makes plenty of sense to me but I guess we have to agree to disagree. I demand a different standard for voting in a King than I do for voting out a player.

[saldana]

well autumn, since you asked, and since you attempted to cast dispersions upon me for playing the exact same game i always play, and since i happen to agree with sndvls (welcome back btw)

vote lynch autumn

[dubb93]

Roughly a half hour till deadline. Here is how it stands:

Vote Count (Deadline 11p):

Abe Jail - 7 - RendeR (1056), CR (1060), Pass (1062), Jackal (1063), lerriuqs (1065), KWhit (1095), DT (1168)
Abe Lynch - 4 - Path (1042), Martin (1045), USFLTecmo (1074), BK (1108)
DaddyTorgo Jail - 3 - Autumn (1087), Abe (1112), Telle (1126)
Autumn Lynch - 3 - SnDvls (1050), Lathum (1077), Saldana (1178)

[path12]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'd love to hear what anyone else makes of Sndvl's log, because I think it very clearly shows, with some context, that I didn't ping pong. But I do not want to get in a lengthy back and forth about it if no one else agrees with what he wrote.

I think you've swung back on forth re: clap/Abe but I'm leaning towards you being a villager at this point following the sequence you and I had a few minutes ago and think you're thinking out loud, which is valuable but can get you into hot water when a bunch of those thoughts are put down in a post.

I'm very glad SnDvls put it together though. I end up doing enough digging through the thread as a game goes on as it is.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by saldana

well autumn, since you asked, and since you attempted to cast dispersions upon me for playing the exact same game i always play, and since i happen to agree with sndvls (welcome back btw)

vote lynch autumn

How did I cast dispersions? Because I asked people if you were usually this quiet?

[path12]

Back and forth, not back on forth.

That English degree has done wonders, Ma!

[Autumn]

I guess yeah, I'm getting targeted for thinking out loud. I'm in the thread most all the day as I work, so I'm here for the revelations and so get all my thoughts down. I think most of us were sure Clap was a wolf for a short while then thrown for a loop with all the crazy action at the end of the day. I don't see that as flip flopping, I see it as following the tides of the game.

[path12]

This game has reminded me both why I love werewolf and why I hate werewolf.

[path12]

Is this thing on?

[SnDvls]

yup

[Autumn]

Bueller, Bueller?

I guess everybody's okay with their vote.

[Autumn]

Which usually makes me worry.

[Abe Sargent]

*Pokes people*

[RendeR]

OW

[RendeR]

Bastard

[Abe Sargent]

GM - If a person is removed from jail by the king, can they use any night action they have that night or do they have to wait until the next night. That's my guess, but I just want it clarified and I can;t recall if I saw it or not.

[RendeR]

I'm fine with my vote because at least I'm not trying to kill anyone.

[Passacaglia]

UNVOTE JAIL ABE SARGENT
VOTE LYNCH AUTUMN

[path12]

8 lynch votes. Now all we need is for them to be on the same person.

In about......three minutes.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

GM - If a person is removed from jail by the king, can they use any night action they have that night or do they have to wait until the next night. That's my guess, but I just want it clarified and I can;t recall if I saw it or not.

I thought your night action was a one-time thing?

[Abe Sargent]

First of all, it wasn;t a night action as you can tell from the rules, secondl,y I was wondering for strategy purpose.s Don;t read into a rules question.

[dubb93]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

GM - If a person is removed from jail by the king, can they use any night action they have that night or do they have to wait until the next night. That's my guess, but I just want it clarified and I can;t recall if I saw it or not.

If a player were to be released from jail on Night 3 and that player had a private role they would not be allowed to resume playing that private role until Day 4.

[Abe Sargent]

Not tell from the rules, but tell from the timing of pass's release. Sorry, bad word choice.

[SnDvls]

dubb you have a DT vote on himself for jail FYI