Alright boyz, here we go!! Civilization IV first impressions...

[Flasch186]

should say something that I uninstalled Warlords so I could go back to 2.08 and got the new VISA mod to play. It seems much better than the vanilla BtS, today.

[Eaglesfan27]

I understand Flasch doesn't like BtS at all, but is anyone else playing it and enjoying it? I'm debating on picking this up during my lunch break today.

[Yossarian]

Playing and loving it.

I play with the missus - she *loves* the random events and missions. I find that they *can* distract you from 'winning' but of course, you don't have to do them.

I like the re-balancing of tech tree and the new leader trait combinations.

Other balancing changes like the change to siege weapons etc... are all fun too. Colonial vassles are cool to see springing up (hey! I just 'created' the USA!) and i'm really liking the new map types.

It's good. I mean, it's not 'Civ 5' - but it's good. I've had my money's worth already anyways....

[Celeval]

We've picked it up, will be playing tonight and this weekend.

[Buccaneer]

Absolutely playing it and basically re-learning how to play so I can win at a higher level. Even though I am going on vacation in week, I could not resist getting this and start playing. One of the new things I've tried was the Big_and_Small landmass - with Snaky continents and Islands mixed in, we finally got a true Civ2-like landmass. To me, the addition of events would solely be worth getting this, even though I haven't seen any yet (I do know what some of them are from others).

Personally, I wouldn't let Flasch influence you. He didn't even like vanilla Civ4 and had always prefered the ViSa mod which unbalances the game in your favor. Even though it takes me 2-3 weeks to play a single game but I have played 12 Civ4 games up to now. However, I can't tell you the last time I won (it was probably right after the initial game came out) because despite the variety of gameplay features and strategies, I still can't shake some of my Civ2 bias (in the way I play). I know I can easily win at Noble and below but I'm going to learn to win consistently at Prince and above...someday...on maps that may or may not be favorable to me. It's sort of an obession that I have...

[Alan T]

I played this a bit last night with my wife, I also echo the statement that I enjoy the random events, they are a nice addition.

I'm still trying to learn the espionage and corporation stuff though. Having not read any of the new documentation on it, can someone briefly explain how the corporations work to me? Espionage seems somewhat straight forward, even though I don't get some of it still either.

Anyhows, I think if you like Civ4 you'll like this.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Got it and love everything about it. Random events are a lot of fun (though a barbarian uprising killed one of my promising civs early on!). Espionage is going to be one of those 'minute to learn, lifetime to master' type of things. I'm getting the basics, but I have to refine how I use it quite a bit.

This game is going to be a great one for quite awhile, especially with this latest addition.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Personally, I wouldn't let Flasch influence you. He didn't even like vanilla Civ4 and had always prefered the ViSa mod which unbalances the game in your favor.

...not to mention the fact that he's a nitwit. Straight Outta Compton.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by WVUFAN

When is that scheduled to be out?

early 2008, IIRC.

---

So I got BtS and am really liking it. They've packed a lot in. I'm enjoying the espionage... I've been poisoning water supplies and formenting revolt in some Indian cities (though I didn't really get into that until they did it to my capital, with some REAL annoying results ).

And Bucc, some of us don't play that aggressively . I'm a builder. In my game (where I'm around the Renassance era in the tech tree), I haven't fought a single war. And created a city on an island SPECIFICALLY to get its resources (copper and horses). Corporations will be great for that .

The events are fun as well. I have two quests, though, and I'm not sure where to go to check up on my status for them (how many more Collesseums do I have to build?).

[Ben E Lou]

Events are the bomb. Good stuff.

[Yossarian]

the only think I dislike about events is that you aren't always informed when you fail to complete them.

[Eaglesfan27]

Sounds good. I'll be picking this up at lunch today.

[Ben E Lou]

Advice to Celeval and EF27: keep some cash in the treasury for those random events. For several, the outcome is more favorable to your empire if you have a little dough to invest.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Advice to Celeval and EF27: keep some cash in the treasury for those random events. For several, the outcome is more favorable to your empire if you have a little dough to invest.

Cash is often helpful when a horde of barbarians come after you.

FYI.....there are also some events that upgrade classes of units that are produced. There's more incentive to have a good military base. For example, an event may give an automatic upgrade to all melee units.

[Calis]

The Old Gods custom game is pretty damn cool, seems to function more along the lines of how religion should've worked in vanilla. Good times.

[Alan T]

No one knows how a corporation works?

[Celeval]

Originally Posted by Alan T

No one knows how a corporation works?

Given how I haven't played it yet, I'd be speaking out my ass.

But that said, look here for a good starting understanding point:

http://civilization4.net/3/263/480/

It's part of Solver's BtS review, that focuses on corps. Gives good overall information, at least.

[Ben E Lou]

Some events appear to be tied to your current civics and situation in general, as best as I can tell. I just had a cool one. My economists devised a system of regulating interest rates to help normalize economic growth. I could let the free maket make use of the techniques, at no cost, for a -10% to inflation, or I could spend 368 gold to fund a national Federal Reserve Bank to carry out the new policy, and get -25% inflation. Nice!

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

early 2008, IIRC.

---

So I got BtS and am really liking it. They've packed a lot in. I'm enjoying the espionage... I've been poisoning water supplies and formenting revolt in some Indian cities (though I didn't really get into that until they did it to my capital, with some REAL annoying results ).

And Bucc, some of us don't play that aggressively . I'm a builder. In my game (where I'm around the Renassance era in the tech tree), I haven't fought a single war. And created a city on an island SPECIFICALLY to get its resources (copper and horses). Corporations will be great for that .

The events are fun as well. I have two quests, though, and I'm not sure where to go to check up on my status for them (how many more Collesseums do I have to build?).

I've done a lot of studying since yesterday and have a better idea of how to balance things out more. I have typical played on crowded map that demands early warfare (because the AI is stupidly weak in the early game). I have always had the fear of monstrous civs with dozens of huge cities (that goes back to Civ2) but even being aggressive in the early game, I still could not kill or weaken all of them. Now...I feel I can play on a less crowded map and concentrate on getting good production, commerce and GP cities that will provide me with the foundation for later success. There will be time for warfare (which I love) but there are lots of others ways to strengthen me and weaken them.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Some events appear to be tied to your current civics and situation in general, as best as I can tell. I just had a cool one. My economists devised a system of regulating interest rates to help normalize economic growth. I could let the free maket make use of the techniques, at no cost, for a -10% to inflation, or I could spend 368 gold to fund a national Federal Reserve Bank to carry out the new policy, and get -25% inflation. Nice!

That is amazingly cool.

[molson]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Some events appear to be tied to your current civics and situation in general, as best as I can tell. I just had a cool one. My economists devised a system of regulating interest rates to help normalize economic growth. I could let the free maket make use of the techniques, at no cost, for a -10% to inflation, or I could spend 368 gold to fund a national Federal Reserve Bank to carry out the new policy, and get -25% inflation. Nice!

This post basically just cost me $30.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by molson

This post basically just cost me $30.

The events alone are worth $30. They range from little things, all the way up (so far) to a free Great Artist. I'll tell you how it happened, but I'd advise getting a Kleenex first.


......



......


Got it?



OK.




I had a "cathedral" building in one of my cities, and a local artist was inspired to create a masterpiece on the ceiling. He did such an outstanding job that a Great Artist was born in that city.

[Buccaneer]

Here's something that could help. What research speed are all of you playing at? Normal? Epic? Marathon?

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

The events alone are worth $30. They range from little things, all the way up (so far) to a free Great Artist. I'll tell you how it happened, but I'd advise getting a Kleenex first.


......



......


Got it?



OK.




I had a "cathedral" building in one of my cities, and a local artist was inspired to create a masterpiece on the ceiling. He did such an outstanding job that a Great Artist was born in that city.

Dat is da culture bomb.

[Ben E Lou]

Oh, and as far as Corporations, I think it's a situation of them not being what people expected. I think people expected it to be just like religion in that the best strategy is to spread it to as many cities as possible. They wanted to just build corporations in every city in their empire and watch the cash roll in. That's not how they work. Corporations are much more strategic than that, it would appear. They bring in money, but also increase inflation, so there's a trade-off. So far, I'm going with the strategy of using them to enhance specialized cities: I put Mining Inc., for example, in the production cities. I'm getting seven extra hammers (added to base rate, so cha-ching with forge/factory/power) in each of the three cities I chose to spread that one to, but it is costing a total of 24 gold per turn to do it. So, basically, as I see it now, you put money into corporations, and get something in return. It's up to you to decide whether or not it's worth it.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Here's something that could help. What research speed are all of you playing at? Normal? Epic? Marathon?

Epic here.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Oh, and as far as Corporations, I think it's a situation of them not being what people expected. I think people expected it to be just like religion in that the best strategy is to spread it to as many cities as possible. They wanted to just build corporations in every city in their empire and watch the cash roll in. That's not how they work. Corporations are much more strategic than that, it would appear. They bring in money, but also increase inflation, so there's a trade-off. So far, I'm going with the strategy of using them to enhance specialized cities: I put Mining Inc., for example, in the production cities. I'm getting seven extra hammers (added to base rate, so cha-ching with forge/factory/power) in each of the three cities I chose to spread that one to, but it is costing a total of 24 gold per turn to do it. So, basically, as I see it now, you put money into corporations, and get something in return. It's up to you to decide whether or not it's worth it.

Nice work. What about spreading them to other civs to introduce foreign competition? It seems that some are not understanding the intricacies
of corporations and are getting killed by inflation. As you said, it not something simplistic like religion but something works well in combination with other factors.

[Ben E Lou]

I also just realized (still learning the mechanics) that the fact that I'm using the Free Market economic civic is helping me out here. There's -25% maintenance for corporations from that civic. Even though this is my first game of BtS, it seems fairly clear that they put thought into balancing the effects here. Corporations would have been too powerful without them costing something. It's still early, but I think I like it.

[Ben E Lou]

OK. Time for a quick check on my thinking. Standard Ethanol is +9 Beakers, -5 Gold, plus Oil, if I put it in my top Science City. Prior to the corp, that city is producting 332.99 beakers, and 24.00 gold. On the whole, the empire is producing 1365 beakers per turn, and 221 gold per turn.

Create Standard Ethanol, and the city increases to:

363.14 beakers (so the modifiers turn those 9 beakers into 30.15 beakers)

34 gold (cumulative effect of courthouse and free market helps me out so that the gold turns into +10. Nice!)

And I get oil, to boot.

Now, can someone explain to me why corporations suck again?

[Buccaneer]

I was too tired to play tonight I just read through this entire thread. The enthusiam and positive vibes in the weeks after Civ4 came out were incredible to read. So many people got on board quickly with this game and I think it just snowballed.

[Big Fo]

I'm having fun building up my country in my first BtS game, about to start mass-producing military units and try an invasion against the buffed up AI. Definitely enjoying it so far, can't wait to get further along to try some of the new modern units. The advanced start feature is a great addition IMO.

[Flasch186]

i have reinstalled it and am going to give it a shot again.

[twothree]

Originally Posted by Flasch186

i have reinstalled it and am going to give it a shot again.

UNINSTALL UNINSTALL
kono hoshi no musuu no chiri no hitotsu dato
ima no boku niwa rikai dekinai
UNINSTALL UNINSTALL
osore wo shiranai senshi no youni
furumau shikanai UNINSTALL

[twothree]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Here's something that could help. What research speed are all of you playing at? Normal? Epic? Marathon?

I am playing on normal in my first game. Only 150 turns into it, but I don't have a problem with the pace of the research speed on normal. Then again, I don't try and maximize my research. It is at most 60% usually and since I am in an expansion phase (land grab) at the moment in my game my research is 10% at most.

I also love the random events. Especially, when a random event ruins all your hard work. Watch out for those volcanoes. And, it's great to read the events that happen to your opponents.

I don't know what I think of espionage or corporations, since I haven't gotten that far in my game.

And Skydog's advice about keeping money in the treasury was very helpful with one event that hit me.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

OK. Time for a quick check on my thinking. Standard Ethanol is +9 Beakers, -5 Gold, plus Oil, if I put it in my top Science City. Prior to the corp, that city is producting 332.99 beakers, and 24.00 gold. On the whole, the empire is producing 1365 beakers per turn, and 221 gold per turn.

Create Standard Ethanol, and the city increases to:

363.14 beakers (so the modifiers turn those 9 beakers into 30.15 beakers)

34 gold (cumulative effect of courthouse and free market helps me out so that the gold turns into +10. Nice!)

And I get oil, to boot.

Now, can someone explain to me why corporations suck again?

Spreading the Mining corporation to a high-production (base 59, total 88, no power yet) city now.

BEFORE:
City Production--88
Empire Gold Per Turn--232

AFTER:
City Production--99
Empire Gold Per Turn--227


So, I add 11 production per turn in a city for 5 gold per turn. In my particular circumstance, where gold is abundant due to founding three religions in the mid-game, it makes perfect sense to sacrifice 2.16% of my per-turn gold production to increase a city's production by 12.5% for now, and more later in 13 turns when I finish the Three Gorges Dam.

I tend to have lots of excess gold in the 1800-->end portion of the game. Corporations certainly seem like a great way to use that to my advantage, as opposed to the way I used to use it: building little cities on tiny little islands and rush-buying stuff in them.

[Ben E Lou]

Important rule to note for those who haven't started their first game:

If you want to be able to build colonies, don't max out the number of civs. I used a Huge Big and Small map with 12 Civs. There are now 16, due to colonies. If you start with 18 and even eliminate some, those slots are still taken, and colonies can't become new nations, if I'm reading correctly.

[Big Fo]

I settled two previously uninhabited islands and built two cities on each. It seems that I can't release the whole thing together as a new country, instead each island would be split up. Now I'll probably build them up a bit longer before releasing them, the maintenance isn't that bad yet. Those two city colonies might not be that viable on their own so I'll have to see how it plays out.

[Eaglesfan27]

I was too tired to post when I finally stopped playing last night, but so far I'm enjoying BtS. I need to get back in practice playing Civ 4 and adjust to some of the tuning that has been done over the last few months (year?) as I'm getting my ass handed to me on the balanced difficulty level (Noble?)

[henry296]

Quick, stupid question. Do I need Civ4 installed before installing BtS? I've reformatted my hard drive a while ago and didn't re-install Civ4.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by henry296

Quick, stupid question. Do I need Civ4 installed before installing BtS? I've reformatted my hard drive a while ago and didn't re-install Civ4.

Yes, it is not supposed to install without Civ4 already being installed.

[FrogMan]

Freaky thing happen (in real life) yesterday. I found an old Wal-Mart gift card that I had no clue I still had. I didn't even know if there was any money left on it, although it was handwritten "$30" on it. Got to WM, and sure enough, there was still $30 left on it. Weehee, come to papa BtS!!!

I've yet to install it, as the weather is just too frigging nice, but I still have two weeks off work in my annual vacation period, so I should get plenty of time to install and try it very soon.

FM

[Big Fo]

Damn, lost a game that lasted until 4am last night, three turns before my spaceship was due to land Gandhi spawns a Great Artist and wins a cultural victory. The worst part about it was that they were my vassal and I couldn't figured out how to undo that arrangement, so I was unable to declare war once they got close and bury his ass under a pile of ICBMs and modern armor.

Vassals shouldn't be eligible to win anyhow, that pissed me off. I'm starting a new game today and I'm going to win dammit.

[Buccaneer]

I'm trying to remember the conditions in which vassals cease to be vassals. I know it's land and pop and something else? Seems like they grew big enough?

[Big Fo]

I don't know, I'd never played the Warlords expansion and this was my first BtS game. It wasn't a colony I had released, it was the Indians who came to me and asked to be vassalized if that makes any difference.

[John Galt]

Bucc (or anyone else who plays Terra games),

One of the most annoying things to me in Civ4 in terra games is that the New World is rarely conquered until very late in the game (if at all) because the barbarians' technological advance is pretty close to that of the Old World. For me, usually, the civilization that actually bothers with the New World does so in the 19th or 20th centuries and pays the price by being invaded at home. Like Bucc, I do very well at Noble, but struggle on Prince (I've won just 1 Prince game), but unlike Bucc, I play epic games. I play on standard map sizes (my laptop struggles with large and huge maps later in the game). Does anyone else have this problem? If so, what is the solution? Does BtS fix the problem?

[Buccaneer]

I found this by Blake (the AI guru) to be interesting...

On the normal setting, you just play, it's casual.
On aggressive AI, you adapt, it's hardcore.

Note that the vast majority of people who buy the game are not hardcore. Even those that are (proclaim to be) often prefer more of a sandbox style, one of the most common complaints was along the lines of "I don't want the AI forcing me to adopt a play style", in other words the player has to be choose a strategy, and the AI must accommodate them to a degree by not being too aggressive. While Aggressive AI, will be as aggressive as it darn well pleases.

I think this can apply to many games, btw. I am not ready to play Aggressive AI yet but I love the idea of having the AI forcing me to adapt.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Bucc (or anyone else who plays Terra games),

One of the most annoying things to me in Civ4 in terra games is that the New World is rarely conquered until very late in the game (if at all) because the barbarians' technological advance is pretty close to that of the Old World. For me, usually, the civilization that actually bothers with the New World does so in the 19th or 20th centuries and pays the price by being invaded at home. Like Bucc, I do very well at Noble, but struggle on Prince (I've won just 1 Prince game), but unlike Bucc, I play epic games. I play on standard map sizes (my laptop struggles with large and huge maps later in the game). Does anyone else have this problem? If so, what is the solution? Does BtS fix the problem?

I thought Bucc did play Epic Games. What time frame level does he play on?

[Calis]

Blue Marble mod released for BtS now.

hxxp://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=232604

Haven't tried it out yet, but loved the one for vanilla Civ, really made the maps and portraits look more vibrant. Purely aesthetic mod btw, doesn't change gameplay at all.

Looks like it doesn't work with multiplayer, so there's that warning.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Eaglesfan27

I thought Bucc did play Epic Games. What time frame level does he play on?

According to this post, he plays normal speed (unless I'm reading him wrong). I'm not even sure if that detail is relevant for my problem, but I thought I'd include it. I love the idea of Terra games, but I really hate the way they have played out for me.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by John Galt

According to this post, he plays normal speed (unless I'm reading him wrong). I'm not even sure if that detail is relevant for my problem, but I thought I'd include it. I love the idea of Terra games, but I really hate the way they have played out for me.

Yep. Guess I missed that. I'm really curious what research speed everyone is using as I'm undecided (going between marathon and epic in my last 2 games.)