The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[JediKooter]

From reading a few things about the health care reform, sounds like there's lots of holes in it. Kind of like NASA and the space shuttle program back in oh, I don't know, 86ish?

Can't remember some of the exact points that I read, but, in a nut shell, there's lots of makeup on that pig.

[larrymcg421]

Single Payer > Public Option > Obamacare > Doing nothing > What McCain wanted to do

[molson]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Single Payer > Public Option > Obamacare > Doing nothing > What McCain wanted to do

Time will tell, I guess. Obamacare isn't a step towards public option/single player though. It's an independent step away, forever, to this totally seperate thing that is expensive, caters to the insurance companies, and is by no means a slam dunk to work either economically, or in terms of overall quality of heathcare in the country. (Certainly, we can't consider it some huge success yet, can we? It will result in more people "having coverage", but that's a pretty meaningless "win" on its own without context - like "jobs created") Something isn't always better than nothing if something takes a step in the wrong direction.

[Greyroofoo]

Well don't know about 2019, but are Democrats really going to be pushing healthcare again before the huge law they passed is fully implemented?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Tell me exactly why a public option couldn't be passed in 2013 or 2015 or 2019? I mean, Social Security was a limited program that was only for widows and their kids to start with. Now, it's Social Security, the program even Rand Paul has to defend to win.

You're probably not going to have control of both houses to that degree any time soon. Otherwise, a public option could work if Obamacare is, by 2013-2019, considered a wild success by everyone, but that's not going to happen in such a passionately divided electorate. (Which you'll continue to have as long as the Democratic strategy is to tell us all how stupid we are if don't agree with them on everything) People are going to kill it no matter what. Dems had their chance, their one big chance, and they blew it.

[RainMaker]

The health care reform bill is really nothing special. I'd argue that the passing of COBRA in 1985 under Reagan was a much more progressive change to health care than anything in the recent bill. Or the Medicare Part D back in Bush's first term.

It shouldn't be praised by progressives as some great accomplishment, just as it shouldn't be louded by conservatives as some huge step backwards. If you look at the guts of the bill, it changes a few things while largely keeping the same system in place for everyone.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Tell me exactly why a public option couldn't be passed in 2013 or 2015 or 2019? I mean, Social Security was a limited program that was only for widows and their kids to start with. Now, it's Social Security, the program even Rand Paul has to defend to win.

The country is pretty much a corporate oligarchy and those in control will never let it happen. It's one of the big differences in our country and many of the European ones. I just don't see how that structure is going to change over the course of a few years or even a decade.

It's going to be a generational thing. It is ingrained in us at a young age that government running things is bad and big business is good. That we actually have a choice in things when we don't. It's a brilliant strategy that has worked for many people at the top and I don't blame them for doing it. At some point the country will hit a tipping point when it comes to health care, but I don't think that will happen until it starts effecting the middle class much more than it currently does.

[molson]

I'm going to make a wild prediction that Obamacare will have problems in its execution, and will never gain mainstream popularity or acceptance, for which Dems will blame Republicans. All the while, the insurance companies will enjoy how the ongoing battle distracts Americans, and keep cashing the checks.

[molson]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It is ingrained in us at a young age that government running things is bad and big business is good.

But you can't have one running things without the other. At least not in a Democracy. As government gets bigger, so does the influence of corporations. (The right public option/single-payer system could actually make government smaller and more efficient - like you said though, that's not something really desired by either party). Here, instead, we can only have a bloated mess that costs hundreds of time more per capita than other nations' single-payer/public option systems - and still have it celebrated as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

I'm going to make a wild prediction that Obamacare will have problems in its execution, and will never gain mainstream popularity or acceptance, for which Dems will blame Republicans. All the while, the insurance companies will enjoy how the ongoing battle distracts Americans, and keep cashing the checks.

Way to go out on a limb there.

SI

[JonInMiddleGA]

ACORN files for Chapter 7 bankruptcy – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by molson

But you can't have one running things without the other. At least not in a Democracy. As government gets bigger, so does the influence of corporations. (The right public option/single-payer system could actually make government smaller and more efficient - like you said though, that's not something really desired by either party). Here, instead, we can only have a bloated mess that costs hundreds of time more per capita than other nations' single-payer/public option systems - and still have it celebrated as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I agree. I think health care is such a disaster and is so wrong right now, that it'll never be fixed in our lifetimes barring dramatic events.

It goes so far beyond coverage. It involves our procedures and acceptable procedures. Do we want to give every kid who hits their head a CAT scan just to be safe? Do we continue to spend 6-figures to extend a 90-year olds life by a month? Not to mention our own health. We don't hold ourselves accountable for our diet, weight, etc.

I just think this is so screwed up right now and needs so much work that it'll never happen with a group of companies that run the country that realize none of this is in their best interest.

[Buccaneer]

I said this in 2008

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

In reading the comments on cnn to the "Joe the Plumber" issue, I see nothing but condescending, hypocritical arrogance. We have had 8+ years of obnoxious arrogance. Are we going to just be trading one type of arrogance for another? That would really suck.

I would say "yes". People do not learn from history or they know the history, they just live in the short-term gratification. Voters turning on arrogance and greed have happened before and will happen again.

[larrymcg421]

Do you have any more lessons you can teach us, Bucc?

[JonInMiddleGA]

I know I don't watch much network TV, and I watch even less Jimmy Kimmel, but I'm working on something & hadn't bothered to walk across the room to grab the remote ... but how had I missed the Chia Pet Presidential Collection?

I honestly thought it was a commercial parody & was waiting for the punchline. Instead I find out that these Chia heads (Washington, Lincoln, Obama, and a "special" Statue of Liberty) were available at Rite-Aid, Walgreen's, and K-Mart among others.

WTF?

[Flasch186]

I hope that they will fuckin' work together. I was mad at the GOP for locking out the dems, I was mad at the Dems for locking out the GOP...

I think honestly most Americans want them to compromise with eachother on most everything and stop the fighting. Im hope this win pressures Obama to be like Clinton ended up being.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Impeached for bullshit reasons?

Lying under oath?

[Buccaneer]

From cnn.money

IRS reporting rule: In the spirit of helping the business community, Obama announced that he would support a policy change to undo one piece of the new health care law that required businesses to notify the Internal Revenue Service of purchases over $600.

That's a good place to start.

[RainMaker]

I think everyone can agree that that was a moronic piece of legislation. Would make my job much tougher come tax time.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think everyone can agree that that was a moronic piece of legislation. Would make my job much tougher come tax time.

Seriously - as a person who was going to be responsible for that...that was a fucking horrid part of the bill.

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Something every President has ever done and in most cases, to defend far worse things. So, unless you're for the impeachment of every President since probably Lincoln....

soooo... it's ok to lie under oath?

[ISiddiqui]

Hello Capt. Strawman.

Lying under oath being (or not being) an impeachable offense is the topic, not whether its ok or not.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think everyone can agree that that was a moronic piece of legislation. Would make my job much tougher come tax time.

for fucking real. I was contemplating that I might actually have to track which gas stations I use, and come up with some sort of rotation scheme to avoid exceeding the 600 dollar limit.

[molson]

Can we get a list of every president (since Lincoln's) proven lies under oath?

They're not even under oath very often. I don't even think Nixon lied under oath (he probably would have if he tried to stay in office and we went through impeachment hearings, but we never got to that point)

But the point is, give me the example of every president lying under oath since Lincoln or I will impeach you for lying on a message board (not serious penalties attach for that).

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Something every President has ever done and in most cases, to defend far worse things. So, unless you're for the impeachment of every President since probably Lincoln....

But the other presidents didn't get caught.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think everyone can agree that that was a moronic piece of legislation. Would make my job much tougher come tax time.

That was one of the dumbest decisions I've seen (In putting that into law). Talk about giving even more red tape and financial burden on to the private sector.

[SirFozzie]

Use of robo-signers has been a risky business - The Boston Globe

they really need to unsnarl this tangled web.

[JPhillips]

Worst. socialist. ever.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Use of robo-signers has been a risky business - The Boston Globe

they really need to unsnarl this tangled web.

Once my show is over in a couple of weeks I plan on asking my new servicer if they have legal claim to my title. Given the shit the banks have pulled over the past few years I would have no problem going to an attorney to stop payments on my house if they fucked up on my mortgage.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Worst. socialist. ever.

SI

[sterlingice]

So... anyone think quantitative easing is a good idea? I mean, I don't think anything good could come of it. Anyone really think $600B will do much in a $15T economy? That's basically going to move the dial 5% and it's basically going to be whacking 5% out of people's wages and transferring it to the market. And that's the "good" possibility.

The bad is a stagnant economy with inflation. We're already due for inflation- now we have a scapegoat for when it comes.

SI

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

So... anyone think quantitative easing is a good idea? I mean, I don't think anything good could come of it. Anyone really think $600B will do much in a $15T economy? That's basically going to move the dial 5% and it's basically going to be whacking 5% out of people's wages and transferring it to the market. And that's the "good" possibility.

The bad is a stagnant economy with inflation. We're already due for inflation- now we have a scapegoat for when it comes.

SI

Nope. QE2 isn't going to do any good. We're due for a rough mid-to-late 2011 I'd assume.

[JPhillips]

The Fed has been well underperforming its two percent inflation target. I doubt this solves all our problems, but it seems appropriate to do something that may bump inflation up to the Fed's target.

[JPhillips]

How do you save money on healthcare? Just stop paying for it. From NYTimes:

Some Republican lawmakers — still reveling in Tuesday’s statewide election sweep — are proposing an unprecedented solution to the state’s estimated $25 billion budget shortfall: dropping out of the federal Medicaid program.

Far-right conservatives are offering that possibility in impassioned news conferences. Moderate Republicans are studying it behind closed doors. And the party’s advisers on health care policy say it is being discussed more seriously than ever, though they admit it may be as much a huge in-your-face to Washington as anything else.

“With Obamacare mandates coming down, we have a situation where we cannot reduce benefits or change eligibility” to cut costs, said State Representative Warren Chisum, Republican of Pampa, the veteran conservative lawmaker who recently entered the race for speaker of the House. “This system is bankrupting our state,” he said. “We need to get out of it. And with the budget shortfall we’re anticipating, we may have to act this year.”

The Heritage Foundation, a conservative research organization, estimates Texas could save $60 billion from 2013 to 2019 by opting out of Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program, dropping coverage for acute care but continuing to finance long-term care services. The Texas Health and Human Services Commission, which has 3.6 million children, people with disabilities and impoverished Texans enrolled in Medicaid and CHIP, will release its own study on the effect of ending the state’s participation in the federal match program at some point between now and January.

If poor people want healthcare they should just get rich enough to pay for it.

[DaddyTorgo]

If they drop out of Medicaid won't that cause folks to leave the state and thus harm their income/sales/property tax revenues also?

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

If they drop out of Medicaid won't that cause folks to leave the state and thus harm their income/sales/property tax revenues also?

Texas doesn't have a state income tax. That is why people move there.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Texas doesn't have a state income tax. That is why people move there.

ignoring my point about property and sales taxes, and other forms of revenue that require people actually ya know...living there.

also was a larger point about the odds of this ever catching on or anything. particularly in states where you have lots of seniors or others on medicaid...they'd be certain to GTFO.

[RainMaker]

Well kids can't vote, so who cares if they have health care. And there aren't enough disabled or handicapped people to sway the vote either.

Lot of honor there.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

As a side note...why do Republicans have infrastructure? I mean you've got Christie in New Jersey cancelling that tunnel project that only led to New Jersey spending billions for nothing and losing government money, the newly elected Governor of Ohio just said he'll cancel a high speed rail project, and so did the newly elected Governor of Wisconsin. I mean, these are projects largely paid for, will bring in jobs, and lead to positives for their states. Are train's socialist because Europeans have them or something? I hope some of the resident conservative/libertarians can explain this.

Not satisfied until every other industrialized country has passed us in terms of infrastructure. China is running 300MPH trains, we can't even connect major cities.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

If they drop out of Medicaid won't that cause folks to leave the state and thus harm their income/sales/property tax revenues also?

But if you're poor, do you really have a lot of mobility?

SI

[rowech]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

As a side note...why do Republicans have infrastructure? I mean you've got Christie in New Jersey cancelling that tunnel project that only led to New Jersey spending billions for nothing and losing government money, the newly elected Governor of Ohio just said he'll cancel a high speed rail project, and so did the newly elected Governor of Wisconsin. I mean, these are projects largely paid for, will bring in jobs, and lead to positives for their states. Are train's socialist because Europeans have them or something? I hope some of the resident conservative/libertarians can explain this.

The Ohio rail was a joke. It was only going to go 60 mph and with stops, it would average 35-40 mph. Big waste of time. I think most Ohioans would LOVE to see a rail line that goes from Cincy to Columbus to Cleveland with no other stops at all but it has to be done right and be worth it...not something that goes slower than highway driving.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

But if you're poor, do you really have a lot of mobility?

SI

They should have thought of that before they were born in Texas.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by rowech

The Ohio rail was a joke. It was only going to go 60 mph and with stops, it would average 35-40 mph. Big waste of time. I think most Ohioans would LOVE to see a rail line that goes from Cincy to Columbus to Cleveland with no other stops at all but it has to be done right and be worth it...not something that goes slower than highway driving.

They got rid of something similar in Missouri. The Fed wanted to spend millions of federal dollars a 'high speed' line between KC and STL. Only problem was that it wasn't any faster than the existing line. Instead, they're spending money on a commission to study the possibility. They always find a way to spend money even if the original option doesn't make sense.

[sterlingice]

Until we get serious about high speed rail and build a bunch of lines for passenger only, it's not going to be viable. Then again, no one is really serious because they don't want to look at the price tag it will cost to do it.

SI

[Galaxy]

Interesting, Texas is considering pulling out of Meidcaid.


Texas Considers Medicaid Withdrawal - NYTimes.com

[RainMaker]

Our infrastructure won't piss you off until you leave the country and see what others are doing. Then you realize how laughable the "we're #1" crap is. We aren't #1 in much anymore.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Our infrastructure won't piss you off until you leave the country and see what others are doing. Then you realize how laughable the "we're #1" crap is. We aren't #1 in much anymore.

This.

[DaddyTorgo]

Recession's casualty: Charity
8:46am: Charitable giving by wealthy households sank by an average of 35% in 2009, according to a new survey.

Oops - so much for the argument that we'd all take care of each other if the government just got out of the way.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Recession's casualty: Charity
8:46am: Charitable giving by wealthy households sank by an average of 35% in 2009, according to a new survey.

Oops - so much for the argument that we'd all take care of each other if the government just got out of the way.

Huh? Was 2009 a year in which the government got out of our way?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Recession's casualty: Charity
8:46am: Charitable giving by wealthy households sank by an average of 35% in 2009, according to a new survey.

Oops - so much for the argument that we'd all take care of each other if the government just got out of the way.

LOL. What world are you living in? The government got out of our way in 2009?

EDIT: Guess I should have read Passacaglia's response first. Worth responding twice to this one though.