Werewolf LVI: Beneath the Iron Cross - GAME OVER, VILLAGERS WIN! - Page 25

path12 · 10-09-2007, 10:34 PM

Woo! So I believe I was the fool, can you confirm, Neon?

I screwed up big time spacing on scanning hoops to verify. My scans were:
Night 1 -- saldana (villager)
Night 2 -- DT (villager)
Night 3 -- RendeR (villager)
Night 4 -- RealDeal (killed before getting result)

Barkeep49 · 10-09-2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path12

Woo! So I believe I was the fool, can you confirm, Neon?

I screwed up big time spacing on scanning hoops to verify. My scans were:
Night 1 -- saldana (villager)
Night 2 -- DT (villager)
Night 3 -- RendeR (villager)
Night 4 -- RealDeal (killed before getting result)

That's so funny. I really thought, based on your weird voting, that you'd hit on RealDeal and were the true seer.

saldana · 10-09-2007, 10:36 PM

and for those of you wondering what the hell i was doing taking Ant last night...i didnt think i would last the day today, so i was taking one last shot at a conversion, hoping if i could get ant, then you would lynch me today, he could kill Arlington, then if he could get JeHeinz lynched the next day, he could kill NTN and get the win...it was the only way i could imagine pulling this one out.

hoopsguy · 10-09-2007, 10:37 PM

Path = Fool

If you look back at the day that they were voting on RendeR, he came out voting for RealDeal. By the end, when he had to choose between RendeR and Ant he chose RendeR so he could learn if he was Seer or Fool.

That was the time that I most badly wanted to still be able to talk with you guys.

Barkeep49 · 10-09-2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saldana

and for those of you wondering what the hell i was doing taking Ant last night...i didnt think i would last the day today, so i was taking one last shot at a conversion, hoping if i could get ant, then you would lynch me today, he could kill Arlington, then if he could get JeHeinz lynched the next day, he could kill NTN and get the win...it was the only way i could imagine pulling this one out.

Makes sense.

path12 · 10-09-2007, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

That's so funny. I really thought, based on your weird voting, that you'd hit on RealDeal and were the true seer.

Nah, just a big time hunch. I think I did pretty well putting myself in hoops' fangs for the picks.

Neon_Chaos · 10-09-2007, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path12

Woo! So I believe I was the fool, can you confirm, Neon?

Yes. Forgot to update.

hoopsguy · 10-09-2007, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path12

Nah, just a big time hunch. I think I did pretty well putting myself in hoops' fangs for the picks.

Only assumption that you didn't have that was a key factor was "wanted first time as co-wolves". That eliminated a couple of players from consideration. But the list was damn good; color me impressed.

The guy that I thought hardest about was Chief Rum, as I would have liked to play with him as a bad guy one of these games. But I was worried about bringing him into the mix alongside Saldana in terms of early scans from the Seer. Had I known that the roled players would tip their hand early, I would have made very different picks

hoopsguy · 10-09-2007, 10:49 PM

Also, I was extremely frustrated to remove the Seer on Night 1 only to get busted in the process by the Witness. Particularly when I learned that the Seer was going to scan me anyway, which meant that there were no choices I could make this game to allow me to have a good Day 2.

I honestly don't think I could have played a much more villager-like Day 1 and I was still the Seer scan. Oh well, it works well when I actually am a villager.

st.cronin · 10-09-2007, 10:50 PM

Path, I don't think you screwed up. Most people probably assumed hoops was going to be lynched, so what would be the point of scanning him?

hoopsguy · 10-09-2007, 10:53 PM

Well, since it wasn't a 24 hour day he could see that I wasn't lynched.

Point of scanning me was to compare scan results against my revealed lynch status. If he scanned villager and I died wolf then he would know he is Fool. Otherwise, he is Seer and can help build COT or out a wolf.

ArlingtonColt · 10-10-2007, 07:03 AM

Damn day 2 was a very bad day for the furred ones. I am suprised the game lasted this long though.

path12 · 10-10-2007, 07:12 AM

AC, as far as I'm concerned, you're the MVP of this game. Good job.

RendeR · 10-10-2007, 08:49 AM

Good job villagers, very rough game for the wolves, give them some serious props for making the game last as long as it did.

Great game all around, well..almost all

hoopsguy · 10-10-2007, 10:13 AM

OK, so here is some more "inside the wolves thinking".

Saldana noted that EagleFan had posted early in the thread, before Neon had stated "no PM = villager". So he was a little concerned about this. I went back to look at who else had posted in this timeframe to see how we might take heat off of him.

The non-wolves who posted there: NTN, Path, and DaddyTorgo.

I was initially looking to go after one of them on Night 1 with the idea that we were likely to find a role in those three guys. However, Purdue came forward with his seer information so we took him instead.

Once NTN came forward as the witness at the start of Day 2 I was locked in on the idea that we had to take out the other two as they were most certainly going to be villagers. In particular, DT was playing a very, very low-key game by his usual standards. I talked myself into believing that he and DT were psychic twins, that DT was being quiet because there were two lives on the line.

Path was starting to bring more heat on us, so we went after DaddyTorgo that night. Unfortunately, he ended up being the bodyguard and staying home that night. Which is where I came up with the BS story about selling out the other wolf on the night kill. I also tried very hard to minimize the Unholy Mark, so that people would expect we had already turned him once I was gone.

hoopsguy · 10-10-2007, 10:14 AM

RendeR, I like the updated sig

Although it pretty much means that I'll do nothing but feed you the truth next time around ...

Barkeep49 · 10-10-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

RendeR, I like the updated sig

Although it pretty much means that I'll do nothing but feed you the truth next time around ...

Pfft.

jeheinz72 · 10-10-2007, 10:40 AM

NICE! I was shocked there for a second when we didn't initially win, but glad to see we pulled it out. Definitely a fun game to have be my first over here, though I'm pretty sure I was only left alive due to the odds being that I would get myself lynched!

I think I made too many assumptions (publicly at least), but oh well, I was a living non-roled villager in a Villager win, so I wasn't too bad.

Looking forward to getting in another game, though I may skip the next one as I head for vacation in a couple weeks.

Barkeep49 · 10-10-2007, 10:46 AM

JH: I think you played a really strong game.

And BOO to skipping the next game.

path12 · 10-10-2007, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RendeR

Good job villagers, very rough game for the wolves, give them some serious props for making the game last as long as it did.

Great game all around, well..almost all

Yeah, I had to get you lynched since I had scanned you and was trying to find out which role I had. That was the reason rather than hoops pointing you out for me.

RealDeal · 10-10-2007, 11:29 AM

My comments:

Day 1:

As Hoops pointed out, many of you made a big mistake by checking in as a villager before you possibly could have known you had no role. As such, we generally knew which villagers had roles from the start.

IMO, Purdue played his situation poorly the first day. If you are an important role, and you get on the hotseat Day 1, you have to either reveal clearly (so the wolves have to worry about the BG) or suck it up until the end. Giving strong hints risks exactly what happened in this game: wolves figure it out and the BG doesn't.

Day 2:

We knew that Hoops had a good shot of getting discovered, but a seer kill was worth it.

IMO, AC's play was only good because it worked. You have a wolf in the bag, why duke it? Save it for when you think a villager is on the chopping block. If you miss, you hurt your team a ton, and you risk getting lynched, even though you are a revealed good guy (it's happened before in WW). Again, it was great since he got it right, but seemed to me like hitting on 19 in blackjack, just because you got a 2 doesn't mean it was the best play.

Some of the wolves were convinced that DT and Pass were the twins. This resulted in a series of disastrous results. DT, the heroic bodyguard (we didn't know at the time), was bravely defending himself, and Pass of course was our unholy mark. So we got no night kill, and the Brutal Wolf kill ended up being a fratricide.

Day 3:

I wanted to play as close to the way I would play as a villager that I could. So I figured if I was a villager I would have found Hoops really annoying, and I went with that. As it turned out, Hoops helped the wolves by giving us room to work, hampering any meaningful villager discussion, and convincing the villagers to kill Render next turn (more on that later).

We go back to DT for the night kill, since we know it's a sure thing. I was pretty amused when we learned he was the BG, and he had been protecting himself the night before.

Day 4:

In my opinion, this was the day that killed us, and Olie was the villager MVP. Her reveal right before the Night 3 wolf kill made it nearly impossible for us to win. AC and NT were already confirmed villagers, and she added herself and BK. BK's reveal was devastating for us because he couldn't be wolfkilled. At that point we pretty much knew we were doomed.

The Render kill was hilarious. Again, trying to play as straight as I could, I was very critical of the kill, because if I had been a villager, I would have thought it ridiculous. I mean, nobody knows who the wolves are, so if you have to guess, just guess. But to kill the guy based on what Hoops said was absurd. And the secondary arguments for killing him: "we suspect him, so might as well kill him so he's not a distraction" and "gives the seer a chance to scan", those argument could have applied to anyone. Got to be one of the worst reasons to lynch someone (non Day 1) that I have seen.

The lynch was so inexplicable to me that I had to go to the rules to make sure that BK couldn't possibly be the cultist or Unholy Mark. I just couldn't believe he was leading a lynching like that that based on the word of the Alpha Wolf. The only explanation had to be he was on our side, right?

I suggested to Saldana that if Ant got lynched, that we should kill Render during the night. I suspected that Render was the other fool/seer and, if he were, we could have gotten the villagers spending the next could of turns lynching the folks who voted for Render. Saldana, however, had read that Path was the other fool/seer, which I hadn't caught, so we killed him instead.

Day 5:

I get lynched. The funny thing was that a couple of people based their votes on Path's vote for me the day before. However, Path ended up being the fool, and, even if he was the seer, I was the wolfshade, and couldn't be scanned as a wolf. That was the one reason I was a little sad to see all the possible seers killed; I wanted to be scanned.

Saldana realized I was a goner and piled on. I warned him not to go too hard on the "Path scanned him" angle, because eventually folks would realize that he couldn't have scanned me. By this point, the game was beyond hopeless for us.

My only comment on the rules is that the witness role needs to be nerfed. Let the witness have the ability every night to pick a person, and then if that person is killed, the witness gets the name of the wolf that killed him/her. As it is designed now, it is just a "Free Wolf Reveal" card, and that's lame.

hoopsguy · 10-10-2007, 11:42 AM

Hmm, no Cultist role. At one point I thought that Chief Rum might have had that role as he did seem pretty detached from this game relative to others I've seen him play.

DT - why did you stay home on Night 2? Did you really think you were in danger? Or just lacking strong convictions on where the wolves would want to go with their kill? Did I somehow tip you off with a post (given that I was revealed wolf by this time)?

Several villagers had been expressing distrust in you, which should have made you pretty damn safe most of the time. I was extremely surprised - and aggrevated - to learn that we failed to kill you.

st.cronin · 10-10-2007, 12:08 PM

I don't think AC's play was that risky, at all. Hoops was in the bag. Had AC duked it to a villager, hoops still would have been lynched the next day. Its not like the game was riding on that one decision. The village still would have to work through other candidates, and regardless of how AC's duking turned out, information on two players would be revealed: AC as villager, and whoever he duked it to as whatever they were.

jeheinz72 · 10-10-2007, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

JH: I think you played a really strong game.

And BOO to skipping the next game.

Thanks man. I want to play in the next one, but I'll be gone from the 23rd-26th, completely out of reach

You think it would work?

Passacaglia · 10-10-2007, 12:35 PM

What? I had a role? Shouldn't I have been converted, then?

Passacaglia · 10-10-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by path12

Woo! So I believe I was the fool, can you confirm, Neon?

I screwed up big time spacing on scanning hoops to verify. My scans were:
Night 1 -- saldana (villager)
Night 2 -- DT (villager)
Night 3 -- RendeR (villager)
Night 4 -- RealDeal (killed before getting result)

I actually like the play of not scanning hoops. Rather than waste a day scanning someone you know is a wolf, since there was a pretty good COT going already, I'd just assume I was a half-seer (could spot wolves as wolves, but could not build to the COT with the villager scans) and hope to get a wolf.

hoopsguy · 10-10-2007, 12:41 PM

Pass, but there is no value in the list if you are the Fool. There is complete value if you are the seer. So scanning me, a known wolf, was a way to figure out which role you have.

The Fool revealing their scan list is worthless.
The Seer revealing their scan list is priceless (well, at least has signficant value).

Passacaglia · 10-10-2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Pass, but there is no value in the list if you are the Fool. There is complete value if you are the seer. So scanning me, a known wolf, was a way to figure out which role you have.

The Fool revealing their scan list is worthless.
The Seer revealing their scan list is priceless (well, at least has signficant value).

I guess I see it as shooting the moon. If I don't know which one I am, I'd rather not waste a day, hope that I'm the seer, and that I get a wolf. If I was the fool, then it was moot. If I was the seer, I've lost a little bit of value by not being able to build a COT, but I add value by giving myself another chance to catch a wolf.

path12 · 10-10-2007, 01:50 PM

I was sort of assuming I was the seer, and got fixated on finding other wolves other than verifying my own role, and I wasn't sure about what DT was doing. Afterwards, when it was mentioned about the seer being sure by scanning hoops I was like "D'OH!"

PurdueBrad · 10-10-2007, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RealDeal

My comments:

Day 1:
IMO, Purdue played his situation poorly the first day. If you are an important role, and you get on the hotseat Day 1, you have to either reveal clearly (so the wolves have to worry about the BG) or suck it up until the end. Giving strong hints risks exactly what happened in this game: wolves figure it out and the BG doesn't.

I actually agree to a degree. If I hadn't spun the votes with about 30 minutes to go, I was going to all-out reveal but I was more about trying to slide through the first vote rather than giving any thought to getting myself protected. If I had it to do over again, I would've straight up revealed and hoped to get through the night too. My play was short-sighted, although I still thought that the hints would be impossible to miss once I pointed back to the three particular posts. My only other thought with not going full reveal was that I could fly under the radar for those that weren't on-line at the time and hoping that that would've been a decent number of the wolves.

RendeR · 10-10-2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

RendeR, I like the updated sig

Although it pretty much means that I'll do nothing but feed you the truth next time around ...

Hoops, you are permanently tagged as a wolf, IMO, therefore everything you say is utter shyte

ArlingtonColt · 10-10-2007, 03:50 PM

I Duked MAINLY because I was under ALOT of heat also I was 95% sure Eagle was a wolf when Hoops was revealed. It also helped eliminate me as a possible suspect and helped build the CoT early.

Barkeep49 · 10-10-2007, 03:59 PM

So here's the thing:

The wolves were able to take out our roles, yet we were able to build a fairly rock solid COT because of that in the later game. Was killing path a short sighted move in that light?

hoopsguy · 10-10-2007, 04:20 PM

By the time the night rolled around for the Path kill, I was almost certain Path was the Fool. That is why I hoped they would go in a different direction on that evening.

Path was likely going to continue his pursuit of RealDeal if no new evidence emerged. So there was a reason to take him down outside of the "role" belief.

But the COT was getting too big too fast, and if you know Path has a role then he can't be the Unholy Mark, correct? So I think the right decision at that point is to either go after NTN or AC, or else shoot for someone else as the Unholy Mark. Of course, with the Unholy Mark being off the table, the "right" play from a results perspective was to go after the COT.

I think the wolves were upthe creek by the end of Day 2 with the two wolves down (I'm a dead man walking), a two man COT (Witness and Duke), and no chance for a conversion the rest of the way. But I did spend a lot of time thinking about the "right" plays on each day once I was off the chess board. And it was annoying that the move I considered the "right move", and conveyed to the wolves before I died, was no longer the "right move" a day later when they went to complete that kill.

Neon_Chaos · 10-10-2007, 04:34 PM

How do people feel about the Inquisitive role?

hoopsguy · 10-10-2007, 05:13 PM

Liked it, think the role requires that there are a good number of vanilla villagers to not turn into "Seer Light".

saldana · 10-10-2007, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Liked it, think the role requires that there are a good number of vanilla villagers to not turn into "Seer Light".

i was thinking the exact same thing during the game...there were not nearly enough vanilla villagers in the game...everyone Oliegirl scanned ended up being a roled villager, and seriously hurt our chances to blend into the background

also, to comment on a couple things above...hoops and i thought the twins were DT and Path, not DT and Pass, so they were our night 2 targets when DT blocked us. I believe Eaglefan thought pass was the duke when he went brutal on him.

the night i killed path, i was still a little unsure about whether he was the seer or fool (sorry hoops, maybe you saw something i didnt...i often find i can see things easily when i am out of the game) but at the point in the game we were, i didnt think it was a risk we could take...little did i know that i was killing the one person that could have saved me if he had ever revealed his scan of me

i thought the ruleset was pretty tough on the wolves...the number of roled villagers vs vanilla villagers was a little off balance, as i said before but with the seer and the inquisitive, i really dont think the witness should have been in the game...esentially, there was a true seer, a seer light that could not catch a wolf, but because of all the roled villagers, actually made the vanilla villagers the lynch targets everyday, and a free wolf kill in the form of the witness. when i have a witness role in my game, i make sure the wolves have a way to counteract it or it is limited in the way it is implemented.

the last thing that made it impossible for me towards the end was not knowing if the unholy mark had ever been killed....if we knew we could never actually get the conversion, we could have focused more on the COT guys.

path12 · 10-10-2007, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saldana

little did i know that i was killing the one person that could have saved me if he had ever revealed his scan of me

Actually, I was planning on coming out and saying I was 90% sure I was the fool the following day. And after we lynched RealDeal I would have had confirmation, so you would have been right back in the mix.

oliegirl · 10-10-2007, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Liked it, think the role requires that there are a good number of vanilla villagers to not turn into "Seer Light".

I kind of agree...I think I lucked out in scanning roled villagers the first couple of nights and that swayed things. Had I scanned wolves or vanilla villagers (hoops, ant, etc...) they would have come back as villagers and I would have had no useful information and would not have been able to extend the CoT like we did. Depending on how the game goes, I can see it becoming a role to "confirm" reveals...but all in all I think it was a good role.

DaddyTorgo · 10-11-2007, 12:59 PM

WOOHOOO!!

WE WON!!!!

GO TEAM!!

That's all

DaddyTorgo · 10-11-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Teaser: In my next game as GM, dead players, both villagers and wolves, will still be able to post, analyze, persuade, etc.

that's fucking hot. i love those games. i'm in now.

10-09-2007, 10:34 PM	#1201
path12 Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Seattle, WA	Woo! So I believe I was the fool, can you confirm, Neon? I screwed up big time spacing on scanning hoops to verify. My scans were: Night 1 -- saldana (villager) Night 2 -- DT (villager) Night 3 -- RendeR (villager) Night 4 -- RealDeal (killed before getting result) __________________ We have always been at war with Eastasia.

10-09-2007, 10:50 PM	#1210
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Path, I don't think you screwed up. Most people probably assumed hoops was going to be lynched, so what would be the point of scanning him? __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

10-10-2007, 07:12 AM	#1213
path12 Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Seattle, WA	AC, as far as I'm concerned, you're the MVP of this game. Good job. __________________ We have always been at war with Eastasia.

10-10-2007, 08:49 AM	#1214
RendeR Coordinator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY	Good job villagers, very rough game for the wolves, give them some serious props for making the game last as long as it did. Great game all around, well..almost all __________________ http://wotlabs.net/s...8/signature.png http://wotlabs.net/sig_dark/na/banichi18/signature.png

10-10-2007, 12:08 PM	#1223
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	I don't think AC's play was that risky, at all. Hoops was in the bag. Had AC duked it to a villager, hoops still would have been lynched the next day. Its not like the game was riding on that one decision. The village still would have to work through other candidates, and regardless of how AC's duking turned out, information on two players would be revealed: AC as villager, and whoever he duked it to as whatever they were. __________________ co-commish: bb-bbcf.net knives out

10-09-2007, 10:36 PM	#1203
saldana Pro Starter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Bethlehem, Pa	and for those of you wondering what the hell i was doing taking Ant last night...i didnt think i would last the day today, so i was taking one last shot at a conversion, hoping if i could get ant, then you would lynch me today, he could kill Arlington, then if he could get JeHeinz lynched the next day, he could kill NTN and get the win...it was the only way i could imagine pulling this one out.

10-09-2007, 10:37 PM	#1204
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Path = Fool If you look back at the day that they were voting on RendeR, he came out voting for RealDeal. By the end, when he had to choose between RendeR and Ant he chose RendeR so he could learn if he was Seer or Fool. That was the time that I most badly wanted to still be able to talk with you guys.

10-09-2007, 10:49 PM	#1209
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Also, I was extremely frustrated to remove the Seer on Night 1 only to get busted in the process by the Witness. Particularly when I learned that the Seer was going to scan me anyway, which meant that there were no choices I could make this game to allow me to have a good Day 2. I honestly don't think I could have played a much more villager-like Day 1 and I was still the Seer scan. Oh well, it works well when I actually am a villager.

10-09-2007, 10:53 PM	#1211
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Well, since it wasn't a 24 hour day he could see that I wasn't lynched. Point of scanning me was to compare scan results against my revealed lynch status. If he scanned villager and I died wolf then he would know he is Fool. Otherwise, he is Seer and can help build COT or out a wolf.

10-10-2007, 07:03 AM	#1212
ArlingtonColt H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: arlington, tx	Damn day 2 was a very bad day for the furred ones. I am suprised the game lasted this long though.

10-10-2007, 10:13 AM	#1215
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	OK, so here is some more "inside the wolves thinking". Saldana noted that EagleFan had posted early in the thread, before Neon had stated "no PM = villager". So he was a little concerned about this. I went back to look at who else had posted in this timeframe to see how we might take heat off of him. The non-wolves who posted there: NTN, Path, and DaddyTorgo. I was initially looking to go after one of them on Night 1 with the idea that we were likely to find a role in those three guys. However, Purdue came forward with his seer information so we took him instead. Once NTN came forward as the witness at the start of Day 2 I was locked in on the idea that we had to take out the other two as they were most certainly going to be villagers. In particular, DT was playing a very, very low-key game by his usual standards. I talked myself into believing that he and DT were psychic twins, that DT was being quiet because there were two lives on the line. Path was starting to bring more heat on us, so we went after DaddyTorgo that night. Unfortunately, he ended up being the bodyguard and staying home that night. Which is where I came up with the BS story about selling out the other wolf on the night kill. I also tried very hard to minimize the Unholy Mark, so that people would expect we had already turned him once I was gone.

10-10-2007, 10:14 AM	#1216
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	RendeR, I like the updated sig Although it pretty much means that I'll do nothing but feed you the truth next time around ...

10-10-2007, 10:40 AM	#1218
jeheinz72 Pro Rookie Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Fresno, CA	NICE! I was shocked there for a second when we didn't initially win, but glad to see we pulled it out. Definitely a fun game to have be my first over here, though I'm pretty sure I was only left alive due to the odds being that I would get myself lynched! I think I made too many assumptions (publicly at least), but oh well, I was a living non-roled villager in a Villager win, so I wasn't too bad. Looking forward to getting in another game, though I may skip the next one as I head for vacation in a couple weeks.

10-10-2007, 10:46 AM	#1219
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	JH: I think you played a really strong game. And BOO to skipping the next game.

10-10-2007, 11:29 AM	#1221
RealDeal High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: here	My comments: Day 1: As Hoops pointed out, many of you made a big mistake by checking in as a villager before you possibly could have known you had no role. As such, we generally knew which villagers had roles from the start. IMO, Purdue played his situation poorly the first day. If you are an important role, and you get on the hotseat Day 1, you have to either reveal clearly (so the wolves have to worry about the BG) or suck it up until the end. Giving strong hints risks exactly what happened in this game: wolves figure it out and the BG doesn't. Day 2: We knew that Hoops had a good shot of getting discovered, but a seer kill was worth it. IMO, AC's play was only good because it worked. You have a wolf in the bag, why duke it? Save it for when you think a villager is on the chopping block. If you miss, you hurt your team a ton, and you risk getting lynched, even though you are a revealed good guy (it's happened before in WW). Again, it was great since he got it right, but seemed to me like hitting on 19 in blackjack, just because you got a 2 doesn't mean it was the best play. Some of the wolves were convinced that DT and Pass were the twins. This resulted in a series of disastrous results. DT, the heroic bodyguard (we didn't know at the time), was bravely defending himself, and Pass of course was our unholy mark. So we got no night kill, and the Brutal Wolf kill ended up being a fratricide. Day 3: I wanted to play as close to the way I would play as a villager that I could. So I figured if I was a villager I would have found Hoops really annoying, and I went with that. As it turned out, Hoops helped the wolves by giving us room to work, hampering any meaningful villager discussion, and convincing the villagers to kill Render next turn (more on that later). We go back to DT for the night kill, since we know it's a sure thing. I was pretty amused when we learned he was the BG, and he had been protecting himself the night before. Day 4: In my opinion, this was the day that killed us, and Olie was the villager MVP. Her reveal right before the Night 3 wolf kill made it nearly impossible for us to win. AC and NT were already confirmed villagers, and she added herself and BK. BK's reveal was devastating for us because he couldn't be wolfkilled. At that point we pretty much knew we were doomed. The Render kill was hilarious. Again, trying to play as straight as I could, I was very critical of the kill, because if I had been a villager, I would have thought it ridiculous. I mean, nobody knows who the wolves are, so if you have to guess, just guess. But to kill the guy based on what Hoops said was absurd. And the secondary arguments for killing him: "we suspect him, so might as well kill him so he's not a distraction" and "gives the seer a chance to scan", those argument could have applied to anyone. Got to be one of the worst reasons to lynch someone (non Day 1) that I have seen. The lynch was so inexplicable to me that I had to go to the rules to make sure that BK couldn't possibly be the cultist or Unholy Mark. I just couldn't believe he was leading a lynching like that that based on the word of the Alpha Wolf. The only explanation had to be he was on our side, right? I suggested to Saldana that if Ant got lynched, that we should kill Render during the night. I suspected that Render was the other fool/seer and, if he were, we could have gotten the villagers spending the next could of turns lynching the folks who voted for Render. Saldana, however, had read that Path was the other fool/seer, which I hadn't caught, so we killed him instead. Day 5: I get lynched. The funny thing was that a couple of people based their votes on Path's vote for me the day before. However, Path ended up being the fool, and, even if he was the seer, I was the wolfshade, and couldn't be scanned as a wolf. That was the one reason I was a little sad to see all the possible seers killed; I wanted to be scanned. Saldana realized I was a goner and piled on. I warned him not to go too hard on the "Path scanned him" angle, because eventually folks would realize that he couldn't have scanned me. By this point, the game was beyond hopeless for us. My only comment on the rules is that the witness role needs to be nerfed. Let the witness have the ability every night to pick a person, and then if that person is killed, the witness gets the name of the wolf that killed him/her. As it is designed now, it is just a "Free Wolf Reveal" card, and that's lame.

10-10-2007, 11:42 AM	#1222
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Hmm, no Cultist role. At one point I thought that Chief Rum might have had that role as he did seem pretty detached from this game relative to others I've seen him play. DT - why did you stay home on Night 2? Did you really think you were in danger? Or just lacking strong convictions on where the wolves would want to go with their kill? Did I somehow tip you off with a post (given that I was revealed wolf by this time)? Several villagers had been expressing distrust in you, which should have made you pretty damn safe most of the time. I was extremely surprised - and aggrevated - to learn that we failed to kill you.

10-10-2007, 12:35 PM	#1225
Passacaglia Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Big Ten Country	What? I had a role? Shouldn't I have been converted, then?

10-10-2007, 12:41 PM	#1227
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Pass, but there is no value in the list if you are the Fool. There is complete value if you are the seer. So scanning me, a known wolf, was a way to figure out which role you have. The Fool revealing their scan list is worthless. The Seer revealing their scan list is priceless (well, at least has signficant value).

10-10-2007, 01:50 PM	#1229
path12 Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Seattle, WA	I was sort of assuming I was the seer, and got fixated on finding other wolves other than verifying my own role, and I wasn't sure about what DT was doing. Afterwards, when it was mentioned about the seer being sure by scanning hoops I was like "D'OH!" __________________ We have always been at war with Eastasia.

10-10-2007, 03:50 PM	#1232
ArlingtonColt H.S. Freshman Team Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: arlington, tx	I Duked MAINLY because I was under ALOT of heat also I was 95% sure Eagle was a wolf when Hoops was revealed. It also helped eliminate me as a possible suspect and helped build the CoT early.

10-10-2007, 03:59 PM	#1233
Barkeep49 Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Not too far away	So here's the thing: The wolves were able to take out our roles, yet we were able to build a fairly rock solid COT because of that in the later game. Was killing path a short sighted move in that light?

10-10-2007, 04:20 PM	#1234
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	By the time the night rolled around for the Path kill, I was almost certain Path was the Fool. That is why I hoped they would go in a different direction on that evening. Path was likely going to continue his pursuit of RealDeal if no new evidence emerged. So there was a reason to take him down outside of the "role" belief. But the COT was getting too big too fast, and if you know Path has a role then he can't be the Unholy Mark, correct? So I think the right decision at that point is to either go after NTN or AC, or else shoot for someone else as the Unholy Mark. Of course, with the Unholy Mark being off the table, the "right" play from a results perspective was to go after the COT. I think the wolves were upthe creek by the end of Day 2 with the two wolves down (I'm a dead man walking), a two man COT (Witness and Duke), and no chance for a conversion the rest of the way. But I did spend a lot of time thinking about the "right" plays on each day once I was off the chess board. And it was annoying that the move I considered the "right move", and conveyed to the wolves before I died, was no longer the "right move" a day later when they went to complete that kill.

10-10-2007, 04:34 PM	#1235
Neon_Chaos Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Parañaque, Philippines	How do people feel about the Inquisitive role? __________________ Come and see. Last edited by Neon_Chaos : 10-10-2007 at 04:35 PM.

10-10-2007, 05:13 PM	#1236
hoopsguy General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Chicago	Liked it, think the role requires that there are a good number of vanilla villagers to not turn into "Seer Light".

10-11-2007, 12:59 PM	#1240
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	WOOHOOO!! WE WON!!!! GO TEAM!! That's all

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