FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Glad to see the protesters are even burning the businesses that clearly have signs indicating support for the protester's cause. Amazing.

They're actually firing at police now. Not going to end well.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

The first and second sentence you quoted? Absolutely.

The third? A far maybe.

Agreed (on 1st and 2nd). Though it also seems the media appears to be pushing a "OMG, It's a Rodney King like riot", when it isn't even close to that.

[ISiddiqui]

The local news just said "We are focusing on the rioting in Ferguson" while showing people simply walking down the middle of the street with signs. Ridiculous.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

The local news just said "We are focusing on the rioting in Ferguson" while showing people simply walking down the middle of the street with signs. Ridiculous.

Maybe they didn't have access to the camera feeds of the buildings currently ablaze.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I can understand wanting to strike back at police, but I don't understand burning businesses. Seems counterproductive.

And then complain about lack of businesses wanting to open in your community.

[TroyF]

Beyond stupid. Beyond sad.

Go against the wishes of the parents of Brown. Burn business who support your cause. It's only a fraction of the population, but it is still so damned sad. Ugh.

[JonInMiddleGA]

One of the more interesting sidebars for me tonight has been listening/reading some of my younger friends comments. Then I realize: they were <2 or not even born when the Rodney King riots occurred.

[mattlanta]

Here's a live feed of Ferguson with Charlie LeDuff: LIVE on the streets of Ferguson: Charlie LeDuff - YouTube

[nol]

Originally Posted by nol

No, the evidence is the evidence. I'm already assuming the most cop-friendly position where the anonymously-sourced report from the St. Louis police department is true and Darren Wilson suffered an orbital blowout fracture.

What I'm saying is that it's entirely consistent for someone to have minor bruises and swelling that don't require immediate medical attention while also having a broken bone. Conversely, it would be incredibly easy to put a spin on that information and convince a dumb person (aka a potential juror) that an orbital blowout fracture is a big, scary life-threatening injury (Whoa, a broken skull!) that demands a lethal escalation of force when it isn't even close. In fact, you could probably argue that in court without having to provide a definitive answer about whether the orbital fracture was the result of an unprovoked attack or self-defense.

[JonInMiddleGA]

One of the more interesting pics I've seen tonight. The indelible image for me isn't the car or the hooligans ... it's the casual photo taker in the foreground.

[Buccaneer]

I bet Putin is confused by all the commotion about a state law officer shooting an unarmed citizen. They do that 20 times before breakfast.

[RainMaker]

It appears they are burning down most of the businesses in Ferguson.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Protestors/Looters are idiots... But considering how much time the state apparatus had to prepare for this, if the goal was to minimize property damage I have some serious questions.

yeah, how do you not have like 1-3000 cops/guardsman on call and just expect the worst. wtf, dare people to fuck with property and lock the streets down.

[JPhillips]

The testimony from Wilson shows that Brown did not take the gun.

The officer testified that when he first approached Brown and his friend to tell them to walk on the sidewalk instead of in the middle of the road, Brown responded "fuck what you have to say."

"It was a very unusual and not expected response from a simple request," Wilson told jurors.

According to Wilson's account, the officer swung his car around to contain Brown and Johnson and opened his door a few inches before Brown slammed it shut.

Wilson said Brown then started swinging at him through the window of his police cruiser. He described feeling "small" when he gripped Brown's arm to try to stop the blows.

"When I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like a five-year-old holding onto Hulk Hogan," he testified.

Wilson explained to jurors that in order to keep shielding his face from Brown's punches, the only option available for him to defend himself was to pull out his gun. The officer struggled with Brown before he was able to fire the weapon, shattering glass from the police cruiser's door panel.

After that first shot went off, Wilson testified that Brown stepped back and "looked up at me and had the most intense aggressive face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that's how angry he looked."

Wilson again describes Brown as angry when confronted outside the police cruiser. He testified that after briefly chasing Brown and his friend, Brown turned around to look at him and "made like a grunting, aggravated sound" before running at him. That's when Wilson said he started shooting again.

"At this point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots, like it was making him mad that I'm shooting at him," he told jurors. "And the face that he had was looking straight through me, like I wasn't even there, I wasn't even anything in his way."

Wilson's lawyers said Monday in a statement that their client "followed the law" in the deadly confrontation with Brown.

[BYU 14]

A FB post from a friend of mine, who is a police officer, and also black. She has done the job a long time (as mentioned in the post) and her perspective of the mindset you are in as an officer is really drives home the point that these things happen quickly and with so little time to react it is pure training and instinct, not prejudice and a pre-determined thought (as some seen in interviews seem to insinuate) that takes over here.

[Logan]

Unfortunately what you said doesn't actually happen in 100% of cases. 99.99..whatever %, sure. We've seen videos of cops losing their shit and battering on people, only to claim later it was self defense, when the video clearly shows the arrested did nothing wrong. I hope they are as miniscule as they seem and in this case it appears the evidence supports Wilson being in the 99th percentile, but stating definitively that it never ever happens is just not correct.

[JPhillips]

I also have a problem with the phrase, "you better accept the repercussions of challenging an officer." If by challenge she really means assaulting, that's fine, but we don't live in a police state. Challenging an officer shouldn't lead to death.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

A FB post from a friend of mine, who is a police officer, and also black. She has done the job a long time (as mentioned in the post) and her perspective of the mindset you are in as an officer is really drives home the point that these things happen quickly and with so little time to react it is pure training and instinct, not prejudice and a pre-determined thought (as some seen in interviews seem to insinuate) that takes over here.

Yeah, I think all of us have already figured out that this isn't about what was said in that post. The gist seems to be:

1) There doesn't need to be an investigation if it's an unarmed man. It automatically means the shooting was unjustified and there is zero need to go further.

2) If Brown were white this never would have happened.

3) We are all smarter than a grand jury.

There are a lot of reasons we are at this point today, but nobody wants to talk about any of those issues. Some of those discussion topics cross into both sides, but why bother having a real discussion when we can all scream at each other, right?

If I could punch a couple of people square in the mouth right now, it would be the so called friends of Michael Brown that day. To get on TV and state that the cop stood over him and shot him from behind multiple times is disgraceful. I know witnesses aren't reliable, but this was purely a lie. I wish they could be charged with a crime.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Logan

Unfortunately what you said doesn't actually happen in 100% of cases. 99.99..whatever %, sure. We've seen videos of cops losing their shit and battering on people, only to claim later it was self defense, when the video clearly shows the arrested did nothing wrong. I hope they are as miniscule as they seem and in this case it appears the evidence supports Wilson being in the 99th percentile, but stating definitively that it never ever happens is just not correct.

Don't know if directed at my post, but nothing is 100% of the time. There are bad cops who are on power trips, biased or for whatever reason cross the line.

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I also have a problem with the phrase, "you better accept the repercussions of challenging an officer." If by challenge she really means assaulting, that's fine, but we don't live in a police state. Challenging an officer shouldn't lead to death.

Not meant anywhere close to that context. I know her well and she is far from that person. By challenging she literally means confronting with violent intent, which the evidence now looks to support in this case. She is literally 5'2" and all of 125 pounds, if a 250 pound men assaults her because he knows he can overpower her, then she should not even give him the chance to land a punch and possibly knock her out.

Probably not meant that way, but your last sentence comes off as almost stereotyping all police as on power trips.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Yeah, I think all of us have already figured out that this isn't about what was said in that post. The gist seems to be:

1) There doesn't need to be an investigation if it's an unarmed man. It automatically means the shooting was unjustified and there is zero need to go further.

2) If Brown were white this never would have happened.

3) We are all smarter than a grand jury.

There are a lot of reasons we are at this point today, but nobody wants to talk about any of those issues. Some of those discussion topics cross into both sides, but why bother having a real discussion when we can all scream at each other, right?

If I could punch a couple of people square in the mouth right now, it would be the so called friends of Michael Brown that day. To get on TV and state that the cop stood over him and shot him from behind multiple times is disgraceful. I know witnesses aren't reliable, but this was purely a lie. I wish they could be charged with a crime.

Unfortunately Troy a lot of people haven't even come close to figuring this out. And you are right, racial issues in this country cross to both sides and the bottom line is too many people are afraid to have the tough discussions that would start to resolve some of them.

Always easier to take the path of least resistance. And you should add the looters that are destroying the hard work of local minority business owners who are losing their livelihood to this chaos to the people you want to punch in the mouth.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Don't know if directed at my post, but nothing is 100% of the time. There are bad cops who are on power trips, biased or for whatever reason cross the line.

It was directed at the post, and that was my exact point. She is speaking in absolutes about her entire profession. She shouldn't do that.

[bhlloy]

I think there's some good points there - I would personally also add the mass media to the list of people to punch in the face, who have been absolutely disgraceful with some of the "facts" they have reported. It seems like we are in the era of sensationalism and reporting things that are good news and make people watch rather than any sort of balanced journalism.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Logan

It was directed at the post, and that was my exact point. She is speaking in absolutes about her entire profession. She shouldn't do that.

Please explain how you get that from her post? She mentions "yes there are some bad cops out there"

I think it should be an absolute that officers want to go home to their families at the end of their shift.

It is probably an absolute that if you attack an officer, you are at risk of injury or worse.

Their jobs are to suppress crime and I think doing it for so long she knows the absolute mindset that most officers will have in that situation.

Obviously I am missing something, so please point me to the place in her post that is addressed as an absolute in error?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

I think there's some good points there - I would personally also add the mass media to the list of people to punch in the face

Can't throw "mass media" under the bus without including social media,the blogosphere, etc.

Not sure how you were counting that but it seems like a fair point to highlight.

[Butter]

Originally Posted by TroyF

2) If Brown were white this never would have happened.

If he were white, I definitely question if Wilson would have been afraid for his life.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Can't throw "mass media" under the bus without including social media,the blogosphere, etc.

Not sure how you were counting that but it seems like a fair point to highlight.

And to this point, those outlets are the worst.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Please explain how you get that from her post? She mentions "yes there are some bad cops out there"

I think it should be an absolute that officers want to go home to their families at the end of their shift.

It is probably an absolute that if you attack an officer, you are at risk of injury or worse.

Their jobs are to suppress crime and I think doing it for so long she knows the absolute mindset that most officers will have in that situation.

Obviously I am missing something, so please point me to the place in her post that is addressed as an absolute in error?

There's always room to nitpick, but overall her opinion is spot on.

[CU Tiger]

So sad on so many levels.

I feel most sorry for the business owners who are losing their businesses and their life savings. I've never seen a commercial insurance policy that didnt specifically exclude acts of riot. People who had nothing to do with this or may have even supported the Brown family are now financially ruined.

I feel for the Brown family for their loss, but their son contributed at least somewhat to it.

I feel for the Wilson family and the trauma they will endure for a very long time, but likewise I feel he probably contributed somewhat to it.

We need to have a nation wide, intellient discussion regarding racial sensitivities. And we need to teach young people of all races how to interact with all LEOs in a way that ensures they will make it home. (My advice to my teen: Be Polite, Say Nothing, Live to fight in court)..and we need to severly punish the ignorance that allows and promotes the logical fallacy that is 'I am outraged I demand to steal stuff from someone who is uninvolved'...Honestly the looters from last night, in my eyes, are the lowest form of criminal in this entire circus.

Shrug, but none of that is easy or drives ratings so RACE WAR, CITY ON FIRE, WIDE SPREAD DEATH...carry on.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

We need to have a nation wide, intellient discussion regarding racial sensitivities. And we need to teach young people of all races how to interact with all LEOs in a way that ensures they will make it home. (My advice to my teen: Be Polite, Say Nothing, Live to fight in court).

I disagree with this. Drop any form of race from the discussion. People need to be polite and respectful of all people. It's doesn't matter what race they are. The quicker we learn to respect everyone regardless of race, the better off we'll be. Stop thinking that you have to be more or less sensitive to one race or another. You don't. You just have to respect everyone.

[Buccaneer]

BYU, it would also have to include forums like FOFC where a few that were not there were absolutely convinced of what happened (as in the narrative that AENeuman mentioned). Still I wonder why it took 6 shots, that seemed a tragic overreaction.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Still I wonder why it took 6 shots, that seemed a tragic overreaction.

You shoot until the threat is removed. A situation where you feel compelled the shoot is not the time to be counting rounds (unless there's an ammunition shortage).

[Arles]

I feel for the family of Brown and I really appreciate the way they handled their statement. They could have come out with venom and potentially made a bad situation worse. Instead, their response was thoughtful and they made a great point with the body camera plea.

When it comes to this case, I feel like the initial outcry never was justified by the facts. At the beginning, the media/defense made it sound like a black kid was minding his own business walking down the street and a "Yosemite Sam" police officer just started shooting at him. Obviously, when the facts came in that wasn't even close to the truth. I feel like this is a lot like the Duke Lacrosse scandal where a white/privileged person was branded guilty at the start because it fit a narrative of poor/minority being unduly attacked due to racism/privilege. We have to be very careful with this as a society as there is still legit racism out there and the more "boy who cries wolf" shoe-horning of behavior into a narrative of "it's all about race", the more credence you give people who respond with "see, this wasn't all about race - so shut up media/interest group".

As a public service announcement - I would highly recommend that people who just commit a crime do not charge armed police officers. Most officers should be able to take them down without lethal force, but a Barney Fife in a small town might just open fire....

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

BYU, it would also have to include forums like FOFC where a few that were not there were absolutely convinced of what happened (as in the narrative that AENeuman mentioned). Still I wonder why it took 6 shots, that seemed a tragic overreaction.

Oh come on, we're perfect

Yes and no to your point, you can fire 10 shots (the amount purportedly fired during the chase, with 2 in the vehicle) very quickly, literally 7-8 seconds, so in that small window it is easy to do, though I do see your point, but protocol is to take him down and you really can't tell how many shots are hitting him.

I think one underlying factor here is not knowing the condition of the suspect. Someone on PCP may not go down after taking several shots and this is just an example. Just a tragic outcome all around.

I will give you a perfect example of over reaction that happened here in the late 90's though. A suspect, who was on PCP was acting violently and confronted several officers brandishing a weapon. Phoenix Police fire 73 rounds at the suspect, with bullet wounds being found on the bottom of the suspects feet, meaning they kept shooting after he was prone.

That cost the city of Phoenix several million dollars and rightfully so.

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Can't throw "mass media" under the bus without including social media,the blogosphere, etc.

Not sure how you were counting that but it seems like a fair point to highlight.

Well, sure. At some point you can just expand it to "people suck"

My point would be that if you are getting paid to present the news, you should have a responsibility to report the facts carefully in a responsible manner and not try to generate as much outrage and panic as you can to sell more news (is there a deadly disease in LA that could painfully kill everyone you know and love? Watch our 10pm broadcast to find out!). Maybe I have unrealistic expectations on this, but I did think journalism had a very strong code of ethics around shit like this.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I disagree with this. Drop any form of race from the discussion. People need to be polite and respectful of all people. It's doesn't matter what race they are. The quicker we learn to respect everyone regardless of race, the better off we'll be. Stop thinking that you have to be more or less sensitive to one race or another. You don't. You just have to respect everyone.

See, I dont think you can drop race from the discussion. Part of "respcting all people" is in how you address or interact with those people. There are distinct cultural differences between various races. They exist. We cant ignore them. I had to learn that when coaching 10U football. "Let's go boys" offended half my team. In a position of authority you have an obligation to shape your message to your audience for maximum effectiveness.

Its not about being more or less sensitive it is about understanding your audience, imho.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

If he were white, I definitely question if Wilson would have been afraid for his life.

And you may be 100% dead on correct with this statement.

On the other hand, a scuffle inside the cruiser, the appearance of charging and the face Brown was huge also played a role.

That said, this is the type of thing we need to discuss. Also, I agree with punching looters, media members, other "leaders" in the mouth as well. But those two witnesses who went on the news and talked of an execution style killing? There is a special place in hell reserved for those scumbags. Why nobody is talking about them simply blows my mind. Their statements led to the outcry in the case, they led to the riots, they led to a much more difficult indictment of officer Wilson. . . they caused an unbelievable amount of damage.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by TroyF

But those two witnesses who went on the news and talked of an execution style killing? There is a special place in hell reserved for those scumbags. Why nobody is talking about them simply blows my mind. Their statements led to the outcry in the case, they led to the riots, they led to a much more difficult indictment of officer Wilson. . . they caused an unbelievable amount of damage.

Agreed.

[Buccaneer]

No, there are not distinct cultural differences between various races (or even socio-economic groups) - there are distinct cultural differences between cultural groups.

[stevew]

I miss fat Al Sharpton

[stevew]

Sharpton sometimes makes some solid points. I still don't get announcing after dark.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by stevew

Sharpton sometimes makes some solid points. I still don't get announcing after dark.

That was a head scratcher.....

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by stevew

Sharpton sometimes makes some solid points. I still don't get announcing after dark.

But if not then, when?

Morning? So you can have employees & business owners at peril?
Afternoon? So kids can't get home from school, workers from their jobs?

Do you wait until Saturday maybe? But by doing so you take the p.r. hit for "assuming violence will occur"?

Up the thread somebody mentioned waiting until there was a snowstorm or some sort of severe weather, that might have been the best call in terms of picking & choosing a time.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The testimony from Wilson shows that Brown did not take the gun.

As well as continuing to show that Wilson confronted him for jaywalking, not for the robbery suspect narrative the police department has been pushing. I shed no tears for Brown, but I still find it hard to believe Brown decided to go up to a cop car and start fighting the officer inside the vehicle without being provoked.

Once the fight began, his narrative has some odd spots too. So Brown was punching him in the car for no reason, a shot was fired and Brown backed off and "got the most intense angry face... like a demon" ... Then Brown runs away? But at some point decides to turn back around and charge him? I'm not even saying Wilson is deliberately lying here, but I'd love to see body camera footage of what happened in the middle of the confrontation.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Some low-lights from last night......

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

but I still find it hard to believe Brown decided to go up to a cop car and start fighting the officer inside the vehicle without being provoked.

And I find it hard to believe anybody would overestimate the decision making ability of a common hoodlum like Brown.

This wasn't a choir boy, ask the clerk he just robbed.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But if not then, when?

Morning? So you can have employees & business owners at peril?
Afternoon? So kids can't get home from school, workers from their jobs?

Do you wait until Saturday maybe? But by doing so you take the p.r. hit for "assuming violence will occur"?

Up the thread somebody mentioned waiting until there was a snowstorm or some sort of severe weather, that might have been the best call in terms of picking & choosing a time.

I think Sunday early afternoon would have been much more prudent. Mobilize an appropriate response.

[tarcone]

Don't actions that these looters are taking make it more likely that another black man will get shot? I mean, look at the lawlessness. If there were peaceful protests and singing and hand holding, I think that would make police a whole lot more comfortable in their work environment. Instead, you have riots and violence.

No way anything gets solved. Status quo please.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Some low-lights from last night......

I don't know if any of you saw the billboard in Ferguson. It said "Pants Up! Don't loot!"

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by TroyF

And you may be 100% dead on correct with this statement.

On the other hand, a scuffle inside the cruiser, the appearance of charging and the face Brown was huge also played a role.

He wasn't huge in comparison to Wilson. They were both 6'4" although Brown had a significant weight advantage.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

As well as continuing to show that Wilson confronted him for jaywalking, not for the robbery suspect narrative the police department has been pushing. I shed no tears for Brown, but I still find it hard to believe Brown decided to go up to a cop car and start fighting the officer inside the vehicle without being provoked.

Once the fight began, his narrative has some odd spots too. So Brown was punching him in the car for no reason, a shot was fired and Brown backed off and "got the most intense angry face... like a demon" ... Then Brown runs away? But at some point decides to turn back around and charge him? I'm not even saying Wilson is deliberately lying here, but I'd love to see body camera footage of what happened in the middle of the confrontation.

The testimony regarding the beginning of the fight really strains credibility. Wilson was perfectly respectful and soft spoken and for no reason Brown came to the car and started beating on Wilson. I don't think it happened like that.