The Trump Presidency – 2016

[bob]

Also dumb shit like this: $553 million to extend the Atlanta Streetcar!

[bob]

I don’t know what you are talking about. I live in Fulton and would need to walk 5 miles to get close to a bus line, much less rail. And there is no way they follow any sort of schedule.

You didn’t even read what I said. The argument is why vote yes when nothing will be expanded near me

[bob]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Yes. Without a doubt. The only reason I don't is I currently work in a metro Atlanta area that refuses to allow MARTA expansion. I will soon be going back to school to get my Masters and will take public transit every day.

To be fair, the metro area votes no because 1) the current system is poorly run and no expects that to improve as complexity increases and 2) the plan is largely tax the entire metro area (if not state) and improve very little for those outside city limits. Oh, and call anyone that doesn’t want to pay more taxes racist.

[Lathum]

My mother in law is a Fox News truther.

They are currently showing a graphic stating the DOW is undergoing a market correction. Love it that they praise the hell out of Trump about the economy, but when the market tumbles its a "correction"

It is amazing how they brainwash these people. She also tried to tell me last night the wall was well under way. When I prodded her for proof she of course said it was on the news.

[ISiddiqui]

Also dumb shit like this: $553 million to extend the Atlanta Streetcar!

Because why wouldn't you want to extend rail to the Beltline, one of the main reasons it was created (not just as a glorified sidewalk)? And considering that this has been called for by a good number of Atlantans and the money is coming from the additional tax that Atlantans vote for, it's actually quite smart.

[ISiddiqui]

I don’t know what you are talking about. I live in Fulton and would need to walk 5 miles to get close to a bus line, much less rail. And there is no way they follow any sort of schedule.

You didn’t even read what I said. The argument is why vote yes when nothing will be expanded near me

You said poorly run, not that it doesn't go near you. I ride MARTA every single work day. It is 95% on time. That's what people mean when they talk about how it's run. And if buses are in the same traffic as the rest of the city, rather than having rapid trasit lanes, then yeah, they are probably going to have issues with timing.

And look at what's going on in Atlanta. They voted for expansion with a half-penny tax, and all sorts of Light Rail and Bus Rapid Transit is coming in to expand the reach of the system. If the rest of Fulton wants to pay for expansion, it'll happen.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Snob County?

Gwinnett (where I see progress is being made pending a March referendum). But I have worked in Cobb before and their CCT system is horrible.

And GSU or Tech? Both are easily reachable from MARTA. I live a half mile from a MARTA station and work right next to another one. It's fantastic, I read tons of a books a year on the train.

GSU. I went there for undergrad and took MARTA the whole time. I loved the additional time to read, do assignments, pay bills, etc. Even if it cost more, it would be worth it for the improved quality of life.

[ISiddiqui]

Gwinnett (where I see progress is being made pending a March referendum).

Yep. Really good movement. Unfortunately its during "special election time" rather than general election. I have seen polls that most Gwinnett folks are for MARTA, even with the 1c tax (I remember a few years back that Gwinnett was for MARTA but against it if it required a tax - how did they expect it to get paid for?!)

[Edward64]

So what is the deal with Kanye?

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Would you rather take public transportation?

Absolutely. If I lived some where like DC I would take it every day.

[miked]

I live close to the VA (actually bordering on Brookhaven), but #1 is completely true. MARTA costs more than most other transportation systems (did I mention they just changed cards too, sot eh ones you had to buy a few weeks ago for $5 just to ride are no longer valid. It goes almost nowhere, and the buses are even worse. They just canceled our bus line that runs along Briarcliff, which is amazing since a 2000 person high school now has no public transportation options.

The only good news is that they will be expanding the Emory corridor so MARTA may actually go there, but I probably live too close for it to work for me.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

So what is the deal with Kanye?

Trump supporters made a controversial trade of the NFL in exchange for Kanye in order to further strengthen their icons with mental stability issues position.

Play to your strengths.

[bbgunn]

It's different here, obviously, but since I moved to Japan I've really come to enjoy taking the train to work. Like others said, I can read books, take a nap, whip out the computer and do some tasks, etc. Beats trying to deal with rush hour traffic and knuckleheaded drivers and all that stress. Plus, it's a 10-minute walk from my nearest station to my house, and another 10-minute walk between my job and its nearest station, so I get at least 40 minutes of exercise each weekday.

I'm not sure what I'd do if I have to go back to Birmingham, Alabama, or someplace else in the U.S. with terrible public transportation.

[PilotMan]

Let’s be honest, if Obama thought he could get away with campaigning during the storm, then he would have been in Ohio on Monday.

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 30, 2012

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by AENeuman

Yes, and already happening. Saw a study that said America is basically the only country where people like and prefer to drive and don’t want that freedom taken away. Whereas most other Asian countries can’t wait to rid themselves of driving.

Having seen the traffic in Asia, I fully understand why.

I do wonder if it'll work in Asia or places with alot of motorcycles and bicycles zipping in and out like crazy.

[Edward64]

This is just a weird story. Hard to believe SA would be this stupid, if they wanted him dead, go hire some ex-Mossad or like to do it where it can't be linked back to them.

The prince seems to be more progressive (e.g. women driving), I sure hope he didn't order it.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey...te-report-says

Turkish officials have told their American counterparts that they have audio and video recordings that prove writer and activist Jamal Khashoggi, a Washington Post contributor, was murdered inside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul earlier this month, the paper reported late Thursday.

The recordings would represent the first hard evidence to support the Ankara government's contention that a 15-member "assassination squad" apprehended Khashoggi after he entered the consulate on Oct. 2, then killed him and dismembered his body. Previously published surveillance footage shows the 59-year-old Khashoggi entering the consulate. Saudi officials have claimed that he left the building by a different way and they do not know his whereabouts.

The Post report, which cited officials from both the U.S. and Turkey, said that Khashoggi's voice can be heard on the recording along with voices of other men speaking Arabic. One official said men can be heard beating Khashoggi on the recording, while another says the recording indicates how Khashoggi was "interrogated, tortured and then murdered."

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is amazing how they brainwash these people. She also tried to tell me last night the wall was well under way. When I prodded her for proof she of course said it was on the news.

You should have asked her who was paying for it!

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Edward64

This is just a weird story. Hard to believe SA would be this stupid, if they wanted him dead, go hire some ex-Mossad or like to do it where it can't be linked back to them.

The prince seems to be more progressive (e.g. women driving), I sure hope he didn't order it.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey...te-report-says

Everybody sees Putin got away with it & thinks it's easy...

No, MBS is not progressive. The women driving thing was already going to happen, and his real consideration is how to consolidate power, give up ground where necessary & tighten the ruling "family" so they can stay in power longer.

I am a little curious if Turkey (or the US) will have to burn tech sources or if it's just that sloppy by the Saudi's, because I do doubt that actual a/v Intel would come from & be admitted to from a human asset inside the embassy that quickly. Did they even try to use a black room? Either way its also unbelievable that they'd argue he just left via a different exit and they don't have any record of that.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

This is just a weird story. Hard to believe SA would be this stupid, if they wanted him dead, go hire some ex-Mossad or like to do it where it can't be linked back to them.

The prince seems to be more progressive (e.g. women driving), I sure hope he didn't order it.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey...te-report-says

They had been trying to lure him to SA for some time to no avail. And I think it'd be a much bigger story if they had come to the US to assassinate him. This was probably their best opportunity that offered a little plausible deniability.

I don't think the new Prince is better, he's just better at PR. The women driving thing, the holding concerts and wrestling events, etc. But the human rights abuses still take place.

Whether it's stupid or not is yet to be seen. The biggest risk they ran is alienating the United States. But our own President has called the press an enemy of the people and has a soft spot for authoritarians. He's already brushed it off which seems to go with the Saudis reading the room correctly.

[CU Tiger]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Everybody sees Putin got away with it & thinks it's easy...

No, MBS is not progressive. The women driving thing was already going to happen, and his real consideration is how to consolidate power, give up ground where necessary & tighten the ruling "family" so they can stay in power longer.

I am a little curious if Turkey (or the US) will have to burn tech sources or if it's just that sloppy by the Saudi's, because I do doubt that actual a/v Intel would come from & be admitted to from a human asset inside the embassy that quickly. Did they even try to use a black room? Either way its also unbelievable that they'd argue he just left via a different exit and they don't have any record of that.

The way I read it they dismissed all the Turks for the day and it was enough except for the welcoming committee and the reporter.

Not discounting the human rights angle, but how dumb do you have to be to write exposes on SA government, self exile yourself in the US a d then willingly return to get...divorce papers so you can marry your new sweetheart?

It's undefeated guys....never beaten.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by miked

I live close to the VA (actually bordering on Brookhaven), but #1 is completely true. MARTA costs more than most other transportation systems (did I mention they just changed cards too, sot eh ones you had to buy a few weeks ago for $5 just to ride are no longer valid. It goes almost nowhere, and the buses are even worse. They just canceled our bus line that runs along Briarcliff, which is amazing since a 2000 person high school now has no public transportation options.

I wonder how many people who criticize MARTA are familiar with other American mass transit systems (I remember one time stopping one of my friends short by pointing out that Seattle only has one light rail line). $2.50 one way flat fee is generally cheaper on average than most other mass transit systems in the US because other systems tend to charge based on the distance you have traveled. And the change from blue to silver cards has been in process for like 3 years (I got my silver card a few years back when they were giving them out for free when announced the change).

And of course, it goes enough places that it's the 8th largest mass transit system by ridership in the country. The issue is that the state doesn't fund a single cent of it - which is rare among major mass transit systems in the US. So they have asked counties to approve additional funding, which the City of Atlanta did overwhelmingly in 2016, which is where you find all these additional projects being funding (Beltline rail, Clifton Corridor - because Emory being frustrated by DeKalb County dragging its feet on the MARTA splost asked to join CoA).

[cartman]

There is always a tweet.

It's Thursday and only 26 days until the election. How many illegal donations from China and Saudi Arabia did Obama collect today?

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 11, 2012

[cartman]

Always. A. Tweet.

Yesterday Obama campaigned with JayZ & Springsteen while Hurricane Sandy victims across NY & NJ are still decimated by Sandy. Wrong!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 6, 2012

[stevew]

How is this Saudi thing just now breaking? Sportdigs had it last week some time.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by bob

1) the current system is poorly run and no one expects that to improve as complexity increases

No one sane anyway.

Given that we're talking about the ATL, umm ... I'm sure there are some who do expect that.

[Thomkal]

Michael Cohen has registered with the Democratic Party-just in time for the Nov elections. Apparently he was a registered Democrat until Trump ran for office. Now he's switched back, so we Democrats will forgive him?


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...m_npd_ms_fb_ma

[Ksyrup]

Why does anyone have to forgive him? Who cares what his registered affiliation is?

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Why does anyone have to forgive him? Who cares what his registered affiliation is?

He's hoping the judge when he's sentenced and the public will. Read the article, his lawyer put out a statement about it.

[Ksyrup]

I read the article - I don't see any statement from his attorney on why he switched parties. What does his political affiliation have to do with "we Democrats" forgiving him? What does the public's perception, or Democrats in particular, matter?

And why would a judge care? I'm honestly confused. A judge is really going to give him a more lenient sentence because he changed his party affiliation? He could have voted for Trump as a registered Democrat, so we're basically saying a judge is going to acknowledge that not being a Republican means you should get less time for committing a crime?

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I read the article - I don't see any statement from his attorney on why he switched parties. What does his political affiliation have to do with "we Democrats" forgiving him? What does the public's perception, or Democrats in particular, matter?

And why would a judge care? I'm honestly confused. A judge is really going to give him a more lenient sentence because he changed his party affiliation? He could have voted for Trump as a registered Democrat, so we're basically saying a judge is going to acknowledge that not being a Republican means you should get less time for committing a crime?

sorry look at the tweet on the left side of the article, its from Lanny Davis, his lawyer. I'm not saying a judge will care-his lawyer hopes for a reduced sentence if Cohen is "squeaky clean" come sentencing. In June he was still the Republican Deputy Finance Chair. Cooperating with NY State, and telling Mueller every last secret about Trump, without lying about any of it, or holding back anything. Returning to the Democratic Party, which is definitely not the party of Trump, could be part of that process at least in his lawyer's mind.



I hope the judge is not impressed and he goes to jail for a long time, but given the gift Manafort was given after fighting Mueller the whole time, and losing pretty badly, Cohen and his lawyer have seen the "light", and are doing all they can to get an even bigger gift than Manafort.

[Edward64]

Still some confusion as to how there was a recording but it may have been his iPhone and/or iWatch.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/12/middl...ntl/index.html

Missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi may have recorded his own death, a Turkish newspaper reported Saturday morning.

Khashoggi turned on the recording function of his Apple Watch before walking into the Saudi consulate in Istanbul on October 2 , according to Sabah newspaper.

The moments of his "interrogation, torture and killing were audio recorded and sent to both his phone and to iCloud," the pro-government, privately owned newspaper paper reported. The Turkish newspaper said conversations of the men involved in the reported assassination were recorded.

[JPhillips]

Everything's a con.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/13/u...ical-data.html

Trump is selling his donor list to other campaigns, PACs, and private businesses.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by miked

I live close to the VA (actually bordering on Brookhaven), but #1 is completely true. MARTA costs more than most other transportation systems (did I mention they just changed cards too, sot eh ones you had to buy a few weeks ago for $5 just to ride are no longer valid.

Huh? I just took MARTA yesterday and used the same card I've had for years.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Still some confusion as to how there was a recording but it may have been his iPhone and/or iWatch.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/12/middl...ntl/index.html

It is most definitely NOT his iWatch or iPhone. The Turks can't just say "yeah, we got the whole Saudi embassy bugged to the gills, so we see and hear everything that happens there," so the need a plausible cover story for how they got the audio/video. It's lame, but it maybe could have happened, right?

[NobodyHere]

Has anyone even heard the audio yet?

[PilotMan]

Honestly, I don't really want to, nor do I know why anyone else would.

Or do you mean, has anyone heard it?

I believe that the Post has and has shared it with intelligence.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Honestly, I don't really want to, nor do I know why anyone else would.

Or do you mean, has anyone heard it?

I believe that the Post has and has shared it with intelligence.

As far as I know the only people to have reported on the existence of the audio is a Turkish newspaper. I just wonder if the recording has been shared with someone a little more trustworthy and has been reported exactly what's on it.

I'm not a fan of torture personally and don;t want to hear it myself.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

As far as I know the only people to have reported on the existence of the audio is a Turkish newspaper. I just wonder if the recording has been shared with someone a little more trustworthy and has been reported exactly what's on it.

I'm not a fan of torture personally and don;t want to hear it myself.

US spies say they have video and audio proof of Jamal Khashoggi's final moments, as Uber and NYT pull out of Riyadh conference | The Independent

US intelligence officials have told The Washington Post they have been presented with video and audio recordings of the murder of Saudi dissident Jamal Khashoggi inside his own nation’s consulate in Istanbul.
According to intelligence officials cited by The Post, the recordings capture the moments before and during what they described as Mr Khashoggi’s violent death. The 59-year-old, a columnist for The Post, was allegedly killed at the hands of a team of Saudi security personnel flown by private jet into Turkey’s main city just hours before he was scheduled to arrive at the consulate to settle routine personal matters.

[PilotMan]

So without government regulations, we would all be cool with accidents like the limo crash up in NY, right? The business will clearly go bankrupt from nobody else riding with them, and another company will step in and run things how they want, and that'll be good enough? I mean, the bad company went away and that is the desired social impact, isn't it? Because that'd the general argument for less regulations and less government oversight and more capitalism, right?

I know, I get it. It doesn't count for safety and stuff that really matters, like emergency recovery stuff. We can't have people just milling around with no governmental help after a hurricane, but why not?

Shouldn't that be exactly what the small government people be pushing? I didn't choose to live there. They have to take responsibility and bounce back and survive. Businessmen will come in and redevelop the area and make money on it again. Isn't that how it's argued? No regulation, all capitalism, no empathy, all responsibility?

Isn't that exactly what the government is? Isn't this exactly why things have to function for the greater good, even if people it doesn't directly benefit don't want to? You can't have it both ways. You can't have small government that gets out of peoples lives, without having a government that can't protect it's people. Argue the fine line all you want, but somewhere, someone is going to argue that your line is the wrong line. As has been said before, the government you want during an emergency is the government you need every day.

I hear how WWII was the example of how America rose up and became the greatest nation because we all pulled together to win the war. Do people remember just how overbearing the federal government was on businesses across the board? I'm sorry, but there is no way that the current legislative mindset that exists in Washington would be brave enough, or strong enough to pull anything like that off right now. They might even be called Communists for even suggesting such a thing. How convenient.

[tarcone]

In the early 1900s when Galeveston, TX got hit hard by a hurricane, the citizens took it upon themselves to raise the island about 9 feet on their own. They didnt get a lick of help from the federal government.

Just throwing that out there since you mentioned hurricanes.

Honestly, in todays society, you have to have big government. Too many people are attached to it.

I guess it is your perception. We will never be without big government. Unless it starts starving the population. Then you would see some serious change.

[PilotMan]

You're talking early 1900's. The end of the Gilded Age. The point where the government literally picked the winners and losers in business in order to develop the country, and it worked, at the vast expense of human rights and quality of life, but it did work. That's neither here nor there I guess, but it's not exactly representative of the current political arguments for or against government support.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

US spies say they have video and audio proof of Jamal Khashoggi's final moments, as Uber and NYT pull out of Riyadh conference | The Independent

Looks as if there is enough evidence for a bunch of people/companies dropping from that conference in SA. Some pretty sad shit.

I still don't get it, there are many other ways to get rid of someone besides inside your embassy. If true, it shows a lot of arrogance and hope there is a high price to be paid.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Looks as if there is enough evidence for a bunch of people/companies dropping from that conference in SA. Some pretty sad shit.

I still don't get it, there are many other ways to get rid of someone besides inside your embassy. If true, it shows a lot of arrogance and hope there is a high price to be paid.

Saudi Arabia has literally beheaded and f***ing crucified an 18 year old pro democracy protester and the world didn't do a thing except promote SA to chair the Human Rights Council in the UN. Why should they think anyone cares about a little embassy murder?

[panerd]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So without government regulations, we would all be cool with accidents like the limo crash up in NY, right? The business will clearly go bankrupt from nobody else riding with them, and another company will step in and run things how they want, and that'll be good enough? I mean, the bad company went away and that is the desired social impact, isn't it? Because that'd the general argument for less regulations and less government oversight and more capitalism, right?

I know, I get it. It doesn't count for safety and stuff that really matters, like emergency recovery stuff. We can't have people just milling around with no governmental help after a hurricane, but why not?

Shouldn't that be exactly what the small government people be pushing? I didn't choose to live there. They have to take responsibility and bounce back and survive. Businessmen will come in and redevelop the area and make money on it again. Isn't that how it's argued? No regulation, all capitalism, no empathy, all responsibility?

Isn't that exactly what the government is? Isn't this exactly why things have to function for the greater good, even if people it doesn't directly benefit don't want to? You can't have it both ways. You can't have small government that gets out of peoples lives, without having a government that can't protect it's people. Argue the fine line all you want, but somewhere, someone is going to argue that your line is the wrong line. As has been said before, the government you want during an emergency is the government you need every day.

I hear how WWII was the example of how America rose up and became the greatest nation because we all pulled together to win the war. Do people remember just how overbearing the federal government was on businesses across the board? I'm sorry, but there is no way that the current legislative mindset that exists in Washington would be brave enough, or strong enough to pull anything like that off right now. They might even be called Communists for even suggesting such a thing. How convenient.

Dumb smaller government guy responding here...

Sounds like all the regulations you want are already in place and the accident still happened... ineffective overstretched big government failed to act. Maybe because they have 8 million other things they are regulating as well? Your solution is more government? Please explain...

[JPhillips]

I know we're numb to Trump, but take some time to look at clips from his interview with Lesley Stahl. In it he said that climate change is real, but we shouldn't do anything because at some point it will change back, that NATO wasn't created to stop WW3 and that he knows more about it than Mattis, and dismissed Putin's assassination attempts in the UK because it's not in our country.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by panerd

Dumb smaller government guy responding here...

Sounds like all the regulations you want are already in place and the accident still happened... ineffective overstretched big government failed to act. Maybe because they have 8 million other things they are regulating as well? Your solution is more government? Please explain...

So just because something bad happened means that we just give up trying to keep it from happening or trying to prevent bad things from happening where we can? That's essentially what you're arguing here, right? It's the same argument against gun control. Why try to stop it? All the owner has to do is decide to break the law, who's gonna stop him from doing that if he really wants to?

Safety and regulation is always a bracketing. Do we all benefit and spend less overall when businesses aren't allowed to just do what they want? We should totally get rid of the FDA, the FAA, the CDC, I mean, shit's gonna happen, right? What's the point? Why bother even having an EPA? Let's just do what third world countries with shitty governments do, where they 'accept' all the money and any assistance from corporations in exchange for giving up regulatory control because of profit.

That's pretty much the entire argument that I hear from anti-government folks. It's like some people are anti-any government. They feel like they'd be better off on their own, and they don't owe society anything at all. It's a pretty ludicrous argument.

[kingfc22]

Asked if he believes he treated Ford with respect, the President said, "I think so, yeah. I did."
"You know what?" Trump added when told it appeared he had accused Ford of lying in a speech. "I'm not going to get into it, because we won. It doesn't matter. We won."

He’s just a vile human being. Of course I did get a chuckle out of him referencing himself as “not a baby” on more than one occasion. I can’t recall a time I’ve been in conversations with other adults who have to remind me they are not babies.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

So just because something bad happened means that we just give up trying to keep it from happening or trying to prevent bad things from happening where we can? That's essentially what you're arguing here, right? It's the same argument against gun control. Why try to stop it? All the owner has to do is decide to break the law, who's gonna stop him from doing that if he really wants to?

Safety and regulation is always a bracketing. Do we all benefit and spend less overall when businesses aren't allowed to just do what they want? We should totally get rid of the FDA, the FAA, the CDC, I mean, shit's gonna happen, right? What's the point? Why bother even having an EPA? Let's just do what third world countries with shitty governments do, where they 'accept' all the money and any assistance from corporations in exchange for giving up regulatory control because of profit.

That's pretty much the entire argument that I hear from anti-government folks. It's like some people are anti-any government. They feel like they'd be better off on their own, and they don't owe society anything at all. It's a pretty ludicrous argument.

Not saying that at all. I'm just wondering why you chose this particular case to make your case with. If anything government didn't do the job you think it is capable of doing with this company. It's pretty clear they were not supposed to be operated that limo.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by panerd

Not saying that at all. I'm just wondering why you chose this particular case to make your case with. If anything government didn't do the job you think it is capable of doing with this company. It's pretty clear they were not supposed to be operated that limo.

Regulation has it's place, that's my point. I'm not calling you out specifically. You're much too smart to believe that everything is bad. I'm talking about others, in my region, who firmly believe that all regulation is bad. They hear what they are told. They feel that every time they hear of something getting cut or unfunded that it's more money for them and not wasted somewhere else. They can't understand why they even need regulations. Between Massie and Paul here in NKY, the rhetoric is so constant and overblown against any kind of regulation that these people can't understand why they would even want any at all, or that the less the better. That businesses will always have the best interests of people in mind, and that the fewer restrictions on them, the better. My point was, situations like this, proves that regulations are needed to keep people safe and the general welfare of the population is better off with things like this. So the regulations didn't stop the accident, but it should have, it tried to. My point wasn't that they would have, but that they are necessary for public safety and many regulations are necessary, even when people don't understand them.

[Ksyrup]

Wouldn't the better example have been where regulation worked, not where regulation was in place but failed anyway? I get your point, but you're arguing against your point with that example. Should have, tried to, etc., suggests there's no point to it.