FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[RainMaker]

Like I'm sure people don't talk to cops that way in Ezra Klein's wealthy white gated community, but it doesn't mean it's inconceivable in other communities.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Wilson went through his entire career without shooting and killing anyone.

After going through the police academy, Wilson landed a job in 2009 as a rookie officer in Jennings

[WP]

Yeah, give him a cookie.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

[WP]

Yeah, give him a cookie.

Didn't I read somewhere that he has a history of being overly belligerent/aggressive/whatever word you want to use?

[nol]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Not to mention the fact that didn't I read somewhere that he has a history of being overly belligerent/aggressive/whatever word you want to use?

No! Only the person who was shot is supposed to have their personal history scrutinized.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by nol

No! Only the person who was shot is supposed to have their personal history scrutinized.

Kinda like only the person who was raped is really at fault hmm?

[HomerSimpson98]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

That doesn't necessarily mean he had to shoot him. He's in the car. He can roll up the window and lock the door.

Insert the Joker "Not sure if serious?" pic

[HomerSimpson98]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I wonder how often Officer Wilson harassed white people for jaywalking? Being white and living in Covington, Ky, I've jaywalked right in front of cops and never had a word said to me.

Did they tell you to get out of the middle of the street first? And then did you respond with a "fuck off"?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by HomerSimpson98

Insert the Joker "Not sure if serious?" pic

Sure. And then call for backup, or take the time to get out his pepper spray.

Rather than pulling out his gun and blazing away in the middle of a suburb at an unarmed person who was (at best) a suspect in an unarmed robbery (if you believe that he knew that).

[tarcone]

Maybe the 6'4" 300 lb. black man shouldnt have been stealing and then punching a police officer. And trying to escape. Would the outcome have been different? I bet it would have been.
But let us vilify a police officer, who was found to be working within his lawful rights as a police officer in Missouri.

Blame the system. Thats your beef.

And rioting is not the way to change the system. That validates the system.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Sure. And then call for backup, or take the time to get out his pepper spray.

Rather than pulling out his gun and blazing away in the middle of a suburb at an unarmed person who was (at best) a suspect in an unarmed robbery (if you believe that he knew that).

Did you listen to the press conference?

He did know. It came over the radio as Wilson was waiting for an ambulance, with a 2 year old choking victim. Then again as he drove to the area.

I dont think you listened or are choosing not to hear to further your agenda.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Did you listen to the press conference?

He did know. It came over the radio as Wilson was waiting for an ambulance, with a 2 year old choking victim. Then again as he drove to the area.

I dont think you listened or are choosing not to hear to further your agenda.

I didn't listen, no.

But there's enough else called into question about Wilson's story that one has to question anyways whether he was telling the truth about that.

And I'm sorry that my "agenda" of "Maybe the cops should shoot fewer people" is so odious.

[ISiddiqui]

DT, don't you know that only left leaning folks have an agenda . Those conservatives don't have any agenda at all... nope.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Did you listen to the press conference?

He did know. It came over the radio as Wilson was waiting for an ambulance, with a 2 year old choking victim. Then again as he drove to the area.

I dont think you listened or are choosing not to hear to further your agenda.

It's all been mentioned in this thread Tarcone, some people will always have an issue with the police and cherry pick what they want to use in their argument. Plus the testimony is now all public knowledge.

And no, I am not saying there was no other way to handle or that it isn't a tragedy a family lost a son, but the whole thing was less than 2 minutes from start to finish and escalated quickly.

Just don't go after an officer when they attempt to engage you, they are going to expect the worst and respond in kind. What other domestic profession exists that loses one of it's own in the line of duty every 53 hours? Kind of changes the way you respond to being attacked and it isn't roll up your window and let him stroll home.

[tarcone]

You need to listen. They had 60 witnesses. They had forensic evidence. They had reports from the FBI.

And he was found to be within his rights to use force.

Sure, cops shouldnt kill people. But I think Wilson may be dead if he didnt. Bt then what would have happened? One news report. Cop killer arrested. And that would be the end of it.

But because it is a white cop on black criminal action, all hell breaks loose.

[DaddyTorgo]

Question: How many police officers have been indicted in shooting incidents since Bob McCulloch became prosecutor way back in 1991?

Answer: None

McCulloch is the son of a police officer who was shot in the line of duty. In his 24 years as prosecutor, he has never recommended charges against any police officer.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by tarcone

Did you listen to the press conference?

He did know. It came over the radio as Wilson was waiting for an ambulance, with a 2 year old choking victim. Then again as he drove to the area.

I dont think you listened or are choosing not to hear to further your agenda.

How is it that what the grand jury was told about Wilson's knowledge of the incident at the store involving cigars is completely at odds with the public testimony of the Ferguson police chief two days after the incident? How is it that Wilson having "made" Brown as a suspect in a robbery, called for backup, but that call is not recorded in any of the released transcripts of police communications?

[tarcone]

How is it that the grand jury heard all of this and let him go?

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Being white and living in Covington, Ky, I've jaywalked right in front of cops and never had a word said to me.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

[Arles]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Question: How many police officers have been indicted in shooting incidents since Bob McCulloch became prosecutor way back in 1991?

Answer: None

McCulloch is the son of a police officer who was shot in the line of duty. In his 24 years as prosecutor, he has never recommended charges against any police officer.

To make a federal case, the Justice Department would have to show that Wilson knowingly used more force than the situation called for. That's an easier case to make when an officer kicks a handcuffed man who poses no threat than when an officer shoots a man he believes might kill him.

And in past high-profile shootings, that bar has been hard to clear.

The department found insufficient evidence to bring civil rights charges the 1999 shooting of Amadou Diallo, an African immigrant who was unarmed when he died in a fusillade of bullets by New York City police officers who mistakenly thought he was pulling out a gun from his pocket.

Also in New York, federal prosecutors investigated but did not bring charges in the 2006 fatal police shooting of Sean Bell as he was driving away from his bachelor party at a club in Queens. The officers had seen Bell's friends arguing with another patron outside and said they thought Bell's group planned a drive-by shooting.

Federal prosecutors declined this year to charge officers who fatally shot an unarmed woman with a baby in the back seat or her car after a high-speed car chase from the White House to the U.S. Capitol.

Sounds like it's a hard sell - even outside of small towns.

I would be fine with additional training/time off for the officer to better prepare him for future events as some have said. But, I see no reasonable explanation of what happened given the facts and testimony presented that should result in him losing his job or jail time. And, the reality is that unless this guy got legit jail time, the anti-cop brigade would never have been satisfied. This situation was setup for rioting on a tee.

[cartman]

It's not what you know, it's what you can prove.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

If he were white, I definitely question if Wilson would have been afraid for his life.

You are a fool then. Someone attempting to attack you that is bigger than you should put you in fear of your life and the story ends there.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

You are a fool then. Someone attempting to attack you that is bigger than you should put you in fear of your life and the story ends there.

This. I think a 6'4" 300 lb white guy would be pretty darn scary.

[ISiddiqui]

A 6'4'' 300lb guy supposedly is punching you really, really hard and I'm supposed to believe that this is the damage:



Seriously? If he was getting punched as hard as he says, I'd expect major bruising at least, and probably bleeding. I've seen people far more fucked up after an ordinary bar fight.

[Arles]

Interesting that no riots occurred for this situation in Utah when an unarmed white man was shot and killed by a minority cop. :

Utah Local News - Salt Lake City News, Sports, Archive - The Salt Lake Tribune

Dillon Taylor was not armed when a Salt Lake City police officer shot him to death outside a convenience store.

But in that moment on Aug. 11, Officer Bron Cruz had good reason to think Taylor was pulling a gun out of his pants, Salt Lake County District Attorney Sim Gill ruled on Tuesday.

Taylor, 20, and the two men he was with matched the descriptions of a 911 caller who said three men had "flashed" a gun. And Cruz saw them "making a scene" on their way to the 7-Eleven near 2100 S. State Street.

Confronted by officers, the two men with Taylor held up their hands, while Taylor alone was "noncompliant."

Taylor's shooting was justified, Gill said, not because he posed an actual threat, but because Cruz reasonably perceived a threat.

Seems like a similar situation and I think both officers in Utah and Ferguson were well within their rights given what they knew and how the suspect acted. The left was outraged by the Missouri case and the right by the Utah situation. Yet, when reasonable minds look at the evidence, neither should have resulted in jailtime for the cop.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Sure. And then call for backup, or take the time to get out his pepper spray.

Rather than pulling out his gun and blazing away in the middle of a suburb at an unarmed person who was (at best) a suspect in an unarmed robbery (if you believe that he knew that).

He was f*cking attacking him. Darwinism wins here.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A 6'4'' 300lb guy supposedly is punching you really, really hard and I'm supposed to believe that this is the damage:



Seriously? If he was getting punched as hard as he says, I'd expect major bruising at least, and probably bleeding. I've seen people far more fucked up after an ordinary bar fight.

I saw someone write on Twitter that it looked like Wilson was part of a Proactiv infomercial.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Arles

Seems like a similar situation

Is there a history of white folks complaining about being singled out by minority police in that area?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

Interesting that no riots occurred for this situation in Utah when an unarmed white man was shot and killed by a minority cop. :

Utah Local News - Salt Lake City News, Sports, Archive - The Salt Lake Tribune

Seems like a similar situation and I think both officers in Utah and Ferguson were well within their rights given what they knew and how the suspect acted. The left was outraged by the Missouri case and the right by the Utah situation. Yet, when reasonable minds look at the evidence, neither should have resulted in jailtime for the cop.

This may help explain matters:

Salt Lake cop cleared in shooting of unarmed white man | WREG.com

One big difference in the two cases was officer Cruz was wearing a body camera.

Footage from the officer’s body camera (see video above) shows Officer Cruz repeatedly ordered Dillon to show his hands.

On the footage Taylor can be heard saying “Nah, fool.”

Taylor quickly raised his left hand from inside his waistband, lifted his shirt level with his armpit and quickly brought out his right hand.

At that time Officer Cruz shot Taylor twice.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A 6'4'' 300lb guy supposedly is punching you really, really hard and I'm supposed to believe that this is the damage:



Seriously? If he was getting punched as hard as he says, I'd expect major bruising at least, and probably bleeding. I've seen people far more fucked up after an ordinary bar fight.

From the discoloration he was not hit in an area prone to swell/bleed. Don't know if you have ever been hit in the face, but a blow to the jaw does generally not produce lots of trauma. Nose, mouth, above and below the eye socket are much more susceptible.

Also, not every blow produces massive damage, getting hit with 4 ounce MMA gloves over 15 minutes doesn't always leave fighters a swollen bloody mess and if the blow stunned him he is going to react. Would you really want to take a couple more just to see if you could diffuse the situation?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A 6'4'' 300lb guy supposedly is punching you really, really hard and I'm supposed to believe that this is the damage:



Seriously? If he was getting punched as hard as he says, I'd expect major bruising at least, and probably bleeding. I've seen people far more fucked up after an ordinary bar fight.

Seems odd that it is on the right side of his face if he was sitting in his patrol car.

[Matthean]

How about being in a situation where you aren't punching an officer?

[ISiddiqui]

Also there is this which bothers me:

Grand Jury Volume 2, page 144

Quote:
Q: Where there any droppings between the officer's car and the body?
A: What type of dropping?
Q: Blood droppings?
A: No.
Q: There wasn't?
A: No. I walked from my crime scene van to where the body was that day no less than 50 times. Along with the other three detectives, and no one saw any, no one noticed any, we looked, nothing was ever found between the officer's car and where Michael Brown was.
Q: What's the distance between the police car, the officer's car, and the body, do you know?
A: 153 feet 9 inches.

I mean, even if I concede that Officer Wilson was fearing for his life in getting punched in the face... Brown was 153 feet from him... that's 51 yards... Half a football field. Even if Brown starts 'charging', that's quite a ways to start going for the kill.

I'm not saying that Wilson wouldn't have been vindicated in trial, but I'm saying that ALL of these strange things should have led to trial to sort it out.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'm not saying that Wilson wouldn't have been vindicated in trial, but I'm saying that ALL of these strange things should have led to trial to sort it out.

Exactly. It wasn't for the Grand Jury to decide his guilt or innocence, just whether there was enough evidence to try him. From my perspective, it seems like there was.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Also there is this which bothers me:

Grand Jury Volume 2, page 144



I mean, even if I concede that Officer Wilson was fearing for his life in getting punched in the face... Brown was 153 feet from him... that's 51 yards... Half a football field. Even if Brown starts 'charging', that's quite a ways to start going for the kill.

I'm not saying that Wilson wouldn't have been vindicated in trial, but I'm saying that ALL of these strange things should have led to trial to sort it out.

This is what I don't get.

So the story goes Michael Brown punched Wilson and then ran more than 50 yards away, suddenly decided to stop, and then charge Wilson?

I don't get the thought process there. Am I getting some facts wrong?

[cartman]

It’s Incredibly Rare For A Grand Jury To Do What Ferguson’s Just Did | FiveThirtyEight

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Rather than pulling out his gun and blazing away in the middle of a suburb at an unarmed person who was (at best) a suspect in an unarmed robbery (if you believe that he knew that).

Just leave out that part where he assaults the officer and reaches for his gun.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by cartman

It’s Incredibly Rare For A Grand Jury To Do What Ferguson’s Just Did | FiveThirtyEight

“police have been nearly immune from criminal charges in shootings”

This should be frightening to any citizen, black or white.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

A 6'4'' 300lb guy supposedly is punching you really, really hard and I'm supposed to believe that this is the damage:



Seriously? If he was getting punched as hard as he says, I'd expect major bruising at least, and probably bleeding. I've seen people far more fucked up after an ordinary bar fight.

How much damage is necessary before you can defend yourself?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How much damage is necessary before you can defend yourself?

But we're not simply talking about defending yourself, we're talking about pulling out a gun and taking another humans life. I have pimples that look worse than that on a routine basis.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

But we're not simply talking about defending yourself, we're talking about pulling out a gun and taking another humans life. I have pimples that look worse than that on a routine basis.

We allow individuals to use lethal force to defend themselves from a life-threatening attack in this country.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

We allow individuals to use lethal force to defend themselves from a life-threatening attack in this country.

But we're not talking about any individual we're talking about a police officer who is suppose to "defend and serve" the public and is suppose to not be pissing their pants scared when confronted. That is the whole idea behind spending the time and effort in training these people to do these jobs.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

We allow SOME individuals to use lethal force to defend themselves from a life-threatening attack in this country.

Fixed

[Arles]

Originally Posted by cartman

It’s Incredibly Rare For A Grand Jury To Do What Ferguson’s Just Did | FiveThirtyEight

Not according to the numbers on Police shootings. I usually like 538, but that article was incredibly misleading. It is very difficult to get an indictment on an officer shooting where any kind of assault takes place. Unless the guy is sitting on the ground in handcuffs and an officer shoots him, it's tough to prove:

Police are rarely charged criminally for on-duty shootings, but law-enforcement officials and critics differ on whether this should be the case.

New research by a Bowling Green State University criminologist shows that 41 officers in the U.S. were charged with either murder or manslaughter in connection with on-duty shootings over a seven-year period ending in 2011. Over that same period, the Federal Bureau of Investigation reported 2,718 justified homicides by law enforcement, an incomplete count, according to experts.

“It’s very rare that an officer gets charged with a homicide offense resulting from their on-duty conduct even though people are killed on a fairly regular basis,” said Philip Stinson, an assistant professor of criminal justice at Bowling Green who received a federal grant to study arrests of police officers. The study covers more than 6,700 cases of police officers arrested for any crime across all states.

Late Monday, St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Robert McCulloch announced that a grand jury declined to indict police officer Darren Wilson in the Aug. 9 shooting of unarmed black teenager Michael Brown in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson.

Police say there is a reason so few officers are charged.

“The reason is because it’s usually justified,” said William Johnson, executive director of the National Association of Police Organizations. “Basically, that the officer acted in self-defense or the defense of another person.”

I already cited three cases in NY alone that were much more egregious (including one where the victim was shot on the bottom of his foot). Cops just don't get indicted unless it's an open-shut case. If there's any grey area, they often get off because of the statutes set by the Supreme Court for on-duty law officers.

As an aside, I agree that all officers should wear cameras - if only to protect themselves.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

But we're not talking about any individual we're talking about a police officer who is suppose to "defend and serve" the public and is suppose to not be pissing their pants scared when confronted. That is the whole idea behind spending the time and effort in training these people to do these jobs.

Then you should push to only allow officers who could physically subdue someone of Michael Brown's size and stature to serve on the force. Otherwise you have to accept that a police officer should be allowed to use lethal force when their life is in danger from an attack.

You're asking for some Steven Segal super police force where he karate chops down guys twice his size. Good luck finding enough to fill out the ranks.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Then you should push to only allow officers who could physically subdue someone of Michael Brown's size and stature to serve on the force. Otherwise you have to accept that a police officer should be allowed to use lethal force when their life is in danger from an attack.

You're asking for some Steven Segal super police force where he karate chops down guys twice his size. Good luck finding enough to fill out the ranks.

I've seen my kids come home with worse injuries from the playground. If he was truly in fear for his life after that savage beating, he never belonged on the police force to begin with.

[RainMaker]

Like I don't doubt that cops are often shitbags with little oversight. That there should be changes made to how police officers are policed. I probably have talked more crap about cops on this board than anyone else. But this case isn't an example of that.

For those arguing, please read the grand jury report (or at least the highlights). Wilson's account is backed up by other witnesses and the forensic evidence. Brown did something criminal and stupid and it cost him his life. The lesson should be to not assault a cop (or anyone for that matter) who has a gun on them. It's not going to end well.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

I've seen my kids come home with worse injuries from the playground. If he was truly in fear for his life after that savage beating, he never belonged on the police force to begin with.

A 300 pound man charging at you with intent to harm would cause you and everyone else here to fear for their life.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

This should be frightening to any citizen, black or white.

If this was framed as an American problem, you might be on to something...but it's not and sadly you're too late to the party, it's already been framed as a white vs black problem. End of story. Good effort though. Raci$m FTW.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

A 300 pound man charging at you with intent to harm would cause you and everyone else here to fear for their life.

Wilson was a sitting target and took a shot from a 300-pound man. Perhaps, I know this is crazy, he should have pulled out his baton or used the hand-to-hand training that he is taught, including taking down people larger than himself and subdued the suspect.

If Brown had any type of weapon, even a large rock, I would likely feel different. But not when the man was completely unarmed.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

A 300 pound man charging at you with intent to harm would cause you and everyone else here to fear for their life.

And the scuffle already resulted in Brown trying to take the gun from Wilson in the cop car. It's strange to think that had Brown actually won the original struggle for the gun and shot Wilson as he had intended, then Ferguson would never have been razed to the ground.