WW - The Princess Bride (Game Over - Wolves Win) - Page 28

CrimsonFox · 08-02-2011, 04:05 AM

*starts playing sappy Disney music and singing "Listen to your heart"*

CrimsonFox · 08-02-2011, 04:06 AM

well to be fair, danny wanted ntn killed

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 08:36 AM

As I suggested to Mauboy last night, lynching me would be a bad idea. I am in fact Princess Buttercup. I tried to avoid saying so, and not hinting until the last second last night because I hoped to avoid the wolves having time to change their night kill. I can't wriggle out of a lynch twice in a row though, so I don't see anything to do but just reveal and hope we can make this work somehow.

In my defense, I think a wolf fake revealing would have done it straight out with 30-40 minutes left yesterday when there were plenty of people who would have moved their votes, especially knowing that my opponent was a villager.

Regardless, we know Buttercup is in the game, and if a wolf wants to counter reveal they can go right ahead.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 08:37 AM

Narc and CF, please clarify for my timeline what happened with you. When did Narc change places with CF?

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Does anything other than a JAG/Autumn or Jackal/Lathum wolf pairing make sense?

Assuming Autumn is a villager then there's no way JAG is a wolf switching his vote like that to save someone who is basically revealing as Buttercup. So if Autumn is a villager then Jackal/Lathum must be the remaining wolves.

I agree, it's hard to imagine a wolf JAG making that move. He could just say he found what I was saying suspicious and leave his vote there.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Jag is most definitely a wolf. He was signalling that he was buttercup a couple days back saying "it would be good of the village if I wasn't lynched. You have to trust me". That was STRONGLY signalling that he was buttercup. I scanned him last night to see if he was buttercup and he most assuredly is NOT buttercup.

oh yeah, villager in case you are confused, I am the Dread Pirate Roberts. Narcizo gave it to me the night before.

All your scan proved was that JAG wasn't buttercup, correct? If he was a vanilla villager, you wouldn't switch with him.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

All your scan proved was that JAG wasn't buttercup, correct? If he was a vanilla villager, you wouldn't switch with him.

So, assuming Telle is really Fezzik, two out of Jackal, Lathum and JAG are wolves. I don't think JAG's our best guess based on last night, though I don't consider it impossible. So I will be voting Jackal again.

VOTE THE JACKAL

EagleFan · 08-02-2011, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonFox

Well that proves it then. I scanned Jag last night, but I'm still the Dread Pirate Roberts. Obviously the dread pirate roberts can not pass the DPR onto a wolf as that would mean he would become a wolf. Makes sense.

The DPR scan does not turn the target into DPR unless that target is the specific DPR objective.

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 09:50 AM

Nice try Autumn. I am in fact Princess Buttercup. I was surprised you didn't reveal last night to save your neck, but your plan of pushing people towards mauboy worked in the end.

Protect me tonight if you can Telle!

VOTE AUTUMN

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 09:53 AM

My poor Westley has been dead all this time. Damn you scoundrel Dread Pirate Roberts! I even dropped the hint about wanting DPR out last night as a bit of game flavor and to setup because I knew Autumn would reveal as Buttercup eventually.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 10:06 AM

That's interesting Jackal - don't really think you needed to reveal. I guess it boils down to the mechanics of how the brutal ability works.

Eagle - if the Count is the last wolf and he orders the killing of Buttercup would the conversion go through before the village win for killing the last wolf or does the conversion happen first so there is still a wolf in the game?

Anyway Jackal how did you know that it would be Autumn revealing and not mau? How did you know Autumn was a wolf? I thought it was the best shot but I was far from convinced.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

In my defense, I think a wolf fake revealing would have done it straight out with 30-40 minutes left yesterday when there were plenty of people who would have moved their votes, especially knowing that my opponent was a villager.

Dunno about that - if you're a wolf then you've always got Jag swtiching votes up your sleeve to save you if need be. Better to leave it to the last moment to try and turn mau or Jackal around and let you argue that the wolves didn't take you out because they didn't realise in time. I don't know why you weren't explicit in revealing though.

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 10:12 AM

I didn't want Autumn to get away with it, I figured there was a chance people would believe him with no counter, and the longer I waited to counter the more wolfy it would sound.

I was never very convinced that mau was a wolf, it's why my vote was on Autumn all of yesterday and I never switched even though I was wrong in my depiction of how Autumn had been playing. I couldn't be 100% positive, its true, but I figured one of them was a wolf and if the villager died the other would be revealing because they'd likely be lynched today.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 10:14 AM

I switched with Crimson on night four, which is why he didn't get a scan result that night. He revealed at the lynch on day three so that was the first chance I got to switch with him.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:14 AM

Guys, I made pretty clear I was Buttercup last night, without doing it so much to necessarily save my hide. That's a reveal you should buy, not Jackal jumping on it now that we've narrowed the two wolves down to him and Lathum. He's got nothing to lose now. If he manages to trick the village into lynching me and Telle protecting him, they've got a win.

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 10:16 AM

Autumn if you were actually buttercup you'd be dead. Sure you suggested strongly, but why wouldn't you if you could prolong the game another day. There's no way they'd hit bug if you were actually buttercup. They just had to decide between the rest of us!

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 10:18 AM

They/you and your partner/whatever

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcizo

Dunno about that - if you're a wolf then you've always got Jag swtiching votes up your sleeve to save you if need be. Better to leave it to the last moment to try and turn mau or Jackal around and let you argue that the wolves didn't take you out because they didn't realise in time. I don't know why you weren't explicit in revealing though.

I wasn't explicit because I wanted to try to slide by the lynch without having to reveal. The only way this role helps is if I make it to the end, the only way I can make it to the end is if nobody ever finds out who I am. When Mauboy started switching his vote around I held on to my reveal, hoping that I would squeak by somehow. Explicitly revealing, especially with our bodyguard gone for deadline, would have been a horrible idea.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 10:18 AM

Well I think we had all pretty much worked out that a wolf with his neck on the block is going to reveal as the Princess at this stage. Your reveal is pretty much how I expect a wolf would try to play it.

I thought that Lathum was the Princess this morning.

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 10:19 AM

I would hope if the count is the last wolf and lynched the conversion wouldn't happen. That'd be fairly silly. It would be pure guesswork and not really werewolf.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Autumn if you were actually buttercup you'd be dead. Sure you suggested strongly, but why wouldn't you if you could prolong the game another day. There's no way they'd hit bug if you were actually buttercup. They just had to decide between the rest of us!

That's silly, I didn't say anything suggesting I was buttercup until about three minutes to deadline. Bug is dead because a wolf didn't have time to change the kill.

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

That's silly, I didn't say anything suggesting I was buttercup until about three minutes to deadline. Bug is dead because a wolf didn't have time to change the kill.

Most of us were around at the deadline, I don't buy that at all. But it's not for me to buy anyways.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:22 AM

If you guys lose by lynching me that will be the most embarrassing villager loss ever. I suppose there's a 50% chance it won't hurt as bad. But the rule of thumb in Werewolf is the first one to reveal is usually telling the truth.

Narc, you're thinking that if I was a wolf obviously I'd fake reveal this morning. But think about it the other way. If I'm Buttercup, what would I have done differently?

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Most of us were around at the deadline, I don't buy that at all. But it's not for me to buy anyways.

Most of you wolves? I don't believe that.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

Mauboy, may I humbly suggest you stay where you are even if no one moves?

This is my first hint that I am Buttercup. It came at 9:58 p.m.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

Mauboy please move back.

This is at 9:59.

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 10:27 AM

To humor you, in the case that you actually were buttercup, I think it would've been a much better idea to reveal earlier in the day. Why risk dying at the deadline and giving the wolves a convert? Especially if you weren't very sold on mau being bad, that pretty much dooms the village anyways with another wrong lynch.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:28 AM

If I was a wolf, I would have revealed well before that, make everyone get off of me. Then when I didn't die that night I would say that they must have figured i was guarded and gone after someone else. If Buttercup revealed before deadline we would have time to put in a kill on her. I would not wait until the last second and risk people moving back to me or Buttercup revealing and not having time to change the kill. In addition I would have no excuse for not dying since Telle wasn't around to change her guard order to me. Think about it.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 10:28 AM

I doubt Crimson is going to move his vote so it would be Telle and I who would have to swing it. Obviously I'm worried that Jackal has been playing us throughout the game but not worried enough to switch from Autumn. Danny was suspicious of Autumn and JAG and trusted Jackal. So I guess I'm sticking with his instincts and the recent evidence that is available that says Autumn/Jag is the most obvious wolf pairing.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal

To humor you, in the case that you actually were buttercup, I think it would've been a much better idea to reveal earlier in the day. Why risk dying at the deadline and giving the wolves a convert? Especially if you weren't very sold on mau being bad, that pretty much dooms the village anyways with another wrong lynch.

I don't think I really need to explain that more than I already have. There is no way at all it makes any sense for Buttercup to reveal sooner than very close to deadline. I have no power in the game. My only contribution I can make is not getting lynched or killed, so revealing earlier in the game just guarantees I get killed.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I doubt Crimson is going to move his vote so it would be Telle and I who would have to swing it. Obviously I'm worried that Jackal has been playing us throughout the game but not worried enough to switch from Autumn. Danny was suspicious of Autumn and JAG and trusted Jackal. So I guess I'm sticking with his instincts and the recent evidence that is available that says Autumn/Jag is the most obvious wolf pairing.

I'm sure Danny will be happy to hear you pinned losing the game on him ;-)

The Jackal · 08-02-2011, 10:31 AM

Yeah, well, you aren't buttercup, so the point is moot. You played it like a good wolf should, hoping to slide by since there wasn't even a real solid case on you.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

I am good with ntn and Telle as well.

Here are some other people Danny was suspicious of.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

If you guys lose by lynching me that will be the most embarrassing villager loss ever.

I don't think so. It would be an epic wolf win the way the game seems to have been pretty much stacked against them. But letting you win as a wolf would be embarrassing.

Anyway, if you are Buttercup maybe I would be the convert and I'd win anyway.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:34 AM

I have to admit, I did not foresee this kind of stubbornness on the part of the village. I hope that JAG and Telle can see this more clearly.

Who is left on the list to be Rugen? Jackal and JAG? And Rugen is the brutal? In that case I may rethink my vote. He'll just brutal me and possibly get a convert, plus the night kill. Although maybe we'd be lucky and they'd night kill the convert ;-)

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I don't think so. It would be an epic wolf win the way the game seems to have been pretty much stacked against them. But letting you win as a wolf would be embarrassing.

Anyway, if you are Buttercup maybe I would be the convert and I'd win anyway.

I wouldn't say it's stacked. At this moment they have at least two wolves, a 50% conversion chance, and a brutal kill up their sleeve, and Vizini can still steal abilities, right? We've got a bodyguard, a pirate who keep screwing shit up for us and Inigo. Plus a princess whose only ability is to hope she doesn't die.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:40 AM

We want to kill Vizzini today, so the debate should be between me and Lathum it seems. When it becomes clear to you that Jackal is a fake, then you can lynch him tomorrow and hope he doesn't convert someone on his way out.

unvote the jackal
vote lathum

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

I hope that JAG and Telle can see this more clearly.

Oh I think JAG might come around to your point of view. He might leave it to the last minute but I think he'll get there.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:42 AM

I bet you're wishing you had killed me last night, huh, Jackal? But you guys probably didn't dare since I had been chasing after you all day, it wouldn't look good for you. You could have killed me, and then had Mr. Bug or JAG or someone on your team. You'd be in real good shape.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:44 AM

Wow, Narcizo, I kind of feel bad, because yo'ure going to be really embarrassed by the time this game is over ;-)

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 10:44 AM

Like really, really embarrassed.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

Wow, Narcizo, I kind of feel bad, because yo'ure going to be really embarrassed by the time this game is over ;-)

I survived the Chess debacle, I think I'll somehow manage to pull through this one.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 11:11 AM

But it's sweet of you to be so concerned about my mental state.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 11:12 AM

I'd be more worried about Crimson who will have been COMPLETELY wrong two games in a row if you are a villager.

Autumn · 08-02-2011, 11:12 AM

I'll start a thread for you, the I Can't Believe I Did That thread.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 11:42 AM

Your goodwill and bounty are boundless.

Narcizo · 08-02-2011, 11:46 AM

Lathum still has fewer posts than NTN

Lathum · 08-02-2011, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autumn

We want to kill Vizzini today, so the debate should be between me and Lathum it seems. When it becomes clear to you that Jackal is a fake, then you can lynch him tomorrow and hope he doesn't convert someone on his way out.

unvote the jackal
vote lathum

huh?

I haven't been able to keep up all that well, but obviously youi or Jackal are lying, why is it that one of us is Vizzini? Why can't JAckal be Vizzini? And why would you vote for me when you are claiming to be the princess and are having someone counter that, yet aren't voting for them?

Makes no sense

CrimsonFox · 08-02-2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Nice try Autumn. I am in fact Princess Buttercup. I was surprised you didn't reveal last night to save your neck, but your plan of pushing people towards mauboy worked in the end.

Protect me tonight if you can Telle!

VOTE AUTUMN

I knew this.

Thanks jackal. Telle please protect jackal.

CrimsonFox · 08-02-2011, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narcizo

I'd be more worried about Crimson who will have been COMPLETELY wrong two games in a row if you are a villager.

can we be a loittle LESS of an asshole please?

08-02-2011, 04:05 AM	#1351
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	starts playing sappy Disney music and singing "Listen to your heart"

08-02-2011, 04:06 AM	#1352
CrimsonFox Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2009	well to be fair, danny wanted ntn killed

08-02-2011, 08:36 AM	#1353
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	As I suggested to Mauboy last night, lynching me would be a bad idea. I am in fact Princess Buttercup. I tried to avoid saying so, and not hinting until the last second last night because I hoped to avoid the wolves having time to change their night kill. I can't wriggle out of a lynch twice in a row though, so I don't see anything to do but just reveal and hope we can make this work somehow. In my defense, I think a wolf fake revealing would have done it straight out with 30-40 minutes left yesterday when there were plenty of people who would have moved their votes, especially knowing that my opponent was a villager. Regardless, we know Buttercup is in the game, and if a wolf wants to counter reveal they can go right ahead.

08-02-2011, 08:37 AM	#1354
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Narc and CF, please clarify for my timeline what happened with you. When did Narc change places with CF?

08-02-2011, 09:50 AM	#1359
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	Nice try Autumn. I am in fact Princess Buttercup. I was surprised you didn't reveal last night to save your neck, but your plan of pushing people towards mauboy worked in the end. Protect me tonight if you can Telle! VOTE AUTUMN

08-02-2011, 09:53 AM	#1360
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	My poor Westley has been dead all this time. Damn you scoundrel Dread Pirate Roberts! I even dropped the hint about wanting DPR out last night as a bit of game flavor and to setup because I knew Autumn would reveal as Buttercup eventually.

08-02-2011, 10:06 AM	#1361
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	That's interesting Jackal - don't really think you needed to reveal. I guess it boils down to the mechanics of how the brutal ability works. Eagle - if the Count is the last wolf and he orders the killing of Buttercup would the conversion go through before the village win for killing the last wolf or does the conversion happen first so there is still a wolf in the game? Anyway Jackal how did you know that it would be Autumn revealing and not mau? How did you know Autumn was a wolf? I thought it was the best shot but I was far from convinced.

08-02-2011, 10:12 AM	#1363
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	I didn't want Autumn to get away with it, I figured there was a chance people would believe him with no counter, and the longer I waited to counter the more wolfy it would sound. I was never very convinced that mau was a wolf, it's why my vote was on Autumn all of yesterday and I never switched even though I was wrong in my depiction of how Autumn had been playing. I couldn't be 100% positive, its true, but I figured one of them was a wolf and if the villager died the other would be revealing because they'd likely be lynched today.

08-02-2011, 10:14 AM	#1364
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	I switched with Crimson on night four, which is why he didn't get a scan result that night. He revealed at the lynch on day three so that was the first chance I got to switch with him.

08-02-2011, 10:14 AM	#1365
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Guys, I made pretty clear I was Buttercup last night, without doing it so much to necessarily save my hide. That's a reveal you should buy, not Jackal jumping on it now that we've narrowed the two wolves down to him and Lathum. He's got nothing to lose now. If he manages to trick the village into lynching me and Telle protecting him, they've got a win.

08-02-2011, 10:16 AM	#1366
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	Autumn if you were actually buttercup you'd be dead. Sure you suggested strongly, but why wouldn't you if you could prolong the game another day. There's no way they'd hit bug if you were actually buttercup. They just had to decide between the rest of us!

08-02-2011, 10:18 AM	#1367
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	They/you and your partner/whatever

08-02-2011, 10:18 AM	#1369
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	Well I think we had all pretty much worked out that a wolf with his neck on the block is going to reveal as the Princess at this stage. Your reveal is pretty much how I expect a wolf would try to play it. I thought that Lathum was the Princess this morning.

08-02-2011, 10:19 AM	#1370
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	I would hope if the count is the last wolf and lynched the conversion wouldn't happen. That'd be fairly silly. It would be pure guesswork and not really werewolf.

08-02-2011, 10:22 AM	#1373
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	If you guys lose by lynching me that will be the most embarrassing villager loss ever. I suppose there's a 50% chance it won't hurt as bad. But the rule of thumb in Werewolf is the first one to reveal is usually telling the truth. Narc, you're thinking that if I was a wolf obviously I'd fake reveal this morning. But think about it the other way. If I'm Buttercup, what would I have done differently?

08-02-2011, 10:27 AM	#1377
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	To humor you, in the case that you actually were buttercup, I think it would've been a much better idea to reveal earlier in the day. Why risk dying at the deadline and giving the wolves a convert? Especially if you weren't very sold on mau being bad, that pretty much dooms the village anyways with another wrong lynch.

08-02-2011, 10:28 AM	#1378
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	If I was a wolf, I would have revealed well before that, make everyone get off of me. Then when I didn't die that night I would say that they must have figured i was guarded and gone after someone else. If Buttercup revealed before deadline we would have time to put in a kill on her. I would not wait until the last second and risk people moving back to me or Buttercup revealing and not having time to change the kill. In addition I would have no excuse for not dying since Telle wasn't around to change her guard order to me. Think about it.

08-02-2011, 10:28 AM	#1379
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	I doubt Crimson is going to move his vote so it would be Telle and I who would have to swing it. Obviously I'm worried that Jackal has been playing us throughout the game but not worried enough to switch from Autumn. Danny was suspicious of Autumn and JAG and trusted Jackal. So I guess I'm sticking with his instincts and the recent evidence that is available that says Autumn/Jag is the most obvious wolf pairing.

08-02-2011, 10:31 AM	#1382
The Jackal Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New Hampshire	Yeah, well, you aren't buttercup, so the point is moot. You played it like a good wolf should, hoping to slide by since there wasn't even a real solid case on you.

08-02-2011, 10:34 AM	#1385
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I have to admit, I did not foresee this kind of stubbornness on the part of the village. I hope that JAG and Telle can see this more clearly. Who is left on the list to be Rugen? Jackal and JAG? And Rugen is the brutal? In that case I may rethink my vote. He'll just brutal me and possibly get a convert, plus the night kill. Although maybe we'd be lucky and they'd night kill the convert ;-)

08-02-2011, 10:40 AM	#1387
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	We want to kill Vizzini today, so the debate should be between me and Lathum it seems. When it becomes clear to you that Jackal is a fake, then you can lynch him tomorrow and hope he doesn't convert someone on his way out. unvote the jackal vote lathum

08-02-2011, 10:42 AM	#1389
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I bet you're wishing you had killed me last night, huh, Jackal? But you guys probably didn't dare since I had been chasing after you all day, it wouldn't look good for you. You could have killed me, and then had Mr. Bug or JAG or someone on your team. You'd be in real good shape.

08-02-2011, 10:44 AM	#1390
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Wow, Narcizo, I kind of feel bad, because yo'ure going to be really embarrassed by the time this game is over ;-)

08-02-2011, 10:44 AM	#1391
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	Like really, really embarrassed.

08-02-2011, 11:11 AM	#1393
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	But it's sweet of you to be so concerned about my mental state.

08-02-2011, 11:12 AM	#1394
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	I'd be more worried about Crimson who will have been COMPLETELY wrong two games in a row if you are a villager.

08-02-2011, 11:12 AM	#1395
Autumn Head Coach Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Bath, ME	I'll start a thread for you, the I Can't Believe I Did That thread.

08-02-2011, 11:42 AM	#1396
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	Your goodwill and bounty are boundless.

08-02-2011, 11:46 AM	#1397
Narcizo Pro Rookie Join Date: Jan 2006	Lathum still has fewer posts than NTN

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