The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I'll never understand how some Americans believe this rich dude who has profited from the system he claims he's going to rally against will hold his word. Speaks out about Washington fat cats, while at the same time surrounding himself with the same fat cats. I liked Obama as a human being, but all the "change" stuff he spouted during his first election campaign never happened... Trump was elected on the same broken promise, just coming at it from a different angle, appealing to a different crowd.

That's our system. In a parliamentary system the winning party can implement their agenda, but in our system, especially with an opposition willing to ignore norms, nothing much gets done without the cooperation of those out of power.

That's one reason why a parliamentary system is better.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by cartman

I guess part of making America great again involves removing references to climate change and LGBT from whitehouse.gov and putting up ads for Melania's clothing lines and jewelry.

I looked at it and the only thing I saw was her biography mentioning that. I didn't see any ads at all

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Is there a good example of a country prospering with policies of protectionism and isolationism?

Fine. Which country should America be putting first then?

[JPhillips]

I think Reagan tended to put America first without policies of isolationism and protectionism. Right?

[CrescentMoonie]

The culprits committing the violence amidst the protests in DC yesterday were mostly black bloc members.

The women's march today stupidly excluded the fairly large group of pro life feminists who wanted to do more than just participate. Apparently it's not possible to believe in equality for women and value all life at the same time.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think Reagan tended to put America first without policies of isolationism and protectionism. Right?

So it's okay to put America first? Make up your mind.

[tarcone]

Originally Posted by Dutch

So it's okay to put America first? Make up your mind.

Its tough when the wind keeps shifting.

[JPhillips]

It's impossible to have a discussion with you because you argue what you want to have read rather than what was written. I didn't mention America First. I asked about policies of isolationism and protectionism and the lack of examples of national prosperity.

If you want to ignore that, fine. If you want to show me examples of success, fine. But if you want to zing me about something I didn't say, I have no interest in continuing.

[cartman]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I looked at it and the only thing I saw was her biography mentioning that. I didn't see any ads at all

Yeah, my bad. 'Ad' wasn't the right term to use. Should have said 'plug'. A strangely specific mention in a high level bio.

[Julio Riddols]

Our country is splinters. Best we can do now is reassemble into particle board. Wish it were easier to move to Denmark, because I really would go. This next 4 years is going to be the most violent and divisive yet.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

Our country is splinters. Best we can do now is reassemble into particle board. Wish it were easier to move to Denmark, because I really would go. This next 4 years is going to be the most violent and divisive yet.

Copenhagen and Aarhus are fantastic cities. I would retire in Copenhagen if I could.

I'm holding out hope that Trump is no worse than Warren G Harding. Otherwise it's Canada for me asap.

[Ben E Lou]

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Fine. Which country should America be putting first then?

Isolationism and protectionism is NOT putting America first in the mid or long term.

[Disco Stu]

It's interesting that when Americans want to "escape" conservatism they generally want to surround themselves with white people. I've always wondered what those "enlightened" people in Denmark and elsewhere in Europe would be like if they lived among any diversity at all. Now with the refugee crisis, we know - they get much more racist. It seems like mostly a more polite, just "looking down" on people kind of racism (angry at them for not learning the language, and for maintaining their own culture, etc.), rather than the Trump conservative style of more overt racism, but lets not pretend these places are necessarily great for anyone who isn't white. And let's give 'em a few years and see how this nationalist populism progresses and who wins major office in Europe. I think the racial tensions we have in the U.S. are not necessarily a sign of being broken or backwards as a people, I think it's more like we're actually making progress and experiencing the growing pains that go with that. I think we do pretty well, all things considered, we just have jerks on the extremes. And my best hope for Trump now, is that he actually makes us better. There is a lot of bustling energy of wanting to make the world better a place, and wanting our country to move forward right now, then they would be maybe if boring Hillary Clinton was president.

Log In - New York Times

[JPhillips]

The next four years will either be not bad enough to leave or so bad that there's basically no where to go to escape the effects. Might as well stay and fight for what you believe in.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

That makes me proud to be an Amerecan.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Disco Stu

It's interesting that when Americans want to "escape" conservatism they generally want to surround themselves with white people. I've always wondered what those "enlightened" people in Denmark and elsewhere in Europe would be like if they lived among any diversity at all. Now with the refugee crisis, we know - they get much more racist. It seems like mostly a more polite, just "looking down" on people kind of racism (angry at them for not learning the language, and for maintaining their own culture, etc.), rather than the Trump conservative style of more overt racism, but lets not pretend these places are necessarily great for anyone who isn't white. Or that racial tensions we have in the U.S. are necessarily a sign of being broken or backwards as a people, as opposed to us actually making progress and experiencing the growing pains that go with that. I think we do pretty well, all things considered, we just have jerks on the extremes.

Log In - New York Times

Gee a new poster wonder who this was yesterday?;-)

[Disco Stu]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Gee a new poster wonder who this was yesterday?;-)

I have to start a new account with a throwaway email every time I visit the site and feel like posting. Don't worry, it's getting old and I think my FOFC days are just about done.

[CrescentMoonie]

Originally Posted by Disco Stu

I have to start a new account with a throwaway email every time I visit the site and feel like posting. Don't worry, it's getting old and I think my FOFC days are just about done.

Next time come back as Disco Stew.

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Isolationism and protectionism is NOT putting America first in the mid or long term.

Especially considering the day and age we live in. Technology makes it simple for anybody to connect with anyone on this globe. Having the US turn into a hermit crab makes zero sense.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

That makes me proud to be an Amerecan.

Honor is this week's bonus word on my daughter's upcoming spelling test. We practiced the words for the first time on Tuesday. She spelled it correctly the first time.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Fine. Which country should America be putting first then?

Let me ask you, so we can have the right definition, what does putting America first mean to you? As you see Trump will make it in American politics?

I think that's the starting point for a discussion. I mean, I can tell you what my fears are for what it means, but that is pointless to you, because my interpretation isn't the interpretation of the side that supports him.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by Easy Mac

Honor is this week's bonus word on my daughter's upcoming spelling test. We practiced the words for the first time on Tuesday. She spelled it correctly the first time.

Is she at Wharton?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Isolationism and protectionism is NOT putting America first in the mid or long term.

Perfect. So which country is first?

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Perfect. So which country is first?

Are you really that challenged with understanding context, or are you just being intentionally obtuse?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Let me ask you, so we can have the right definition, what does putting America first mean to you? As you see Trump will make it in American politics?

I think that's the starting point for a discussion. I mean, I can tell you what my fears are for what it means, but that is pointless to you, because my interpretation isn't the interpretation of the side that supports him.

The older I get, the more I think that the conservative viewpoint isn't "I want what's good for me, and if it's good for someone else too that's even better" but "I want what's good for me, and fuck everybody else." So, that's what I'm assuming "America First" means. Go America, fuck everyone else.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Let me ask you, so we can have the right definition, what does putting America first mean to you? As you see Trump will make it in American politics?

I think that's the starting point for a discussion. I mean, I can tell you what my fears are for what it means, but that is pointless to you, because my interpretation isn't the interpretation of the side that supports him.

Are you for real?

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cartman

Are you really that challenged with understanding context, or are you just being intentionally obtuse?

Oh it's intentional, wish you could put some of your self-identified genius to work here though. I mean, without the use of cartoons.

[Dutch]

You boyz are hilarious. You are up in arms. Angry. Upset. I get it. You had 8-years with your guy and you got nothing. It's sad, but I understand the frustration. I felt the same way after GWB and he was my guy. Good luck dealing with the realization that sometimes you don't always win. It takes a minute.

[cartman]

None of that answers the questions that were posed to you, meaning that even though "your guy" won, you have no clue what that really means, other than "the other guys" lost.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by cartman

Are you really that challenged with understanding context, or are you just being intentionally obtuse?

Dutch I think you are a vet like me or are still active duty so I can at least see how you feel the way you do. As for me the reason I spent 10 years of my life onboard an Air Force bomber with another 5 years in a three letter intel agency was not to put us first , last or in the middle. I learned from my 15 years living overseas that once we start deciding who comes first to last, we all ultimately lose in the end.

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Is she at Wharton?

I'd kill for her to get in there in a decade. She's a great speller, terrible reader.

[RainMaker]

Kind of surprised the FHA thing was his first order of business. I understand why he did it but just weird it'd be the first thing you'd want to do.

[Butter]

Many of you guys must not be used to getting trolled or something. Seems like Dutch's schtick is pretty obvious.

[CraigSca]

Me, too. But...

The Government Just Suspended A Move That Would Have Made Mortgages More Affordable

Way to go, Trump! Screwing the less affluent!

[digamma]

Dutch is very into the football game of this, and I think that's unfortunate. I think that attitude is what got us to where we are today. Division and scoreboard rather than real discourse about the country's needs.

As far as what I "got" from the last 8 years, I think it's quite a lot. I try to look at it more in terms of what the country got, and I think I benefitted some from that. Just to name a few:

-Marriage equality (I personally got to see some close friends get married)
-Millions with health insurance options they didn't have previously, though an imperfect law and understandably difficult for small businesses and independent consultants, the ACA had many positive components (and personally I saw three of my children's grandparents able to take advantage of some ACA provisions, including one with rather amazing end of life care)
-The Capture and killing of one of America's greatest enemies (from this I got some national pride, though I think Obama could have handled the aftermath better)
-Important financial regulations, which again probably aren't perfect but add some rules to the wild, wild west that partially put us into the great recession (from this, my company was able to take advantage of certain areas where the banks used to play and do very well. personally, I've tried to develop valued expertise in understanding the regulations and done ok with that).
-A continued executive branch free from personal and salacious scandal building on that from the Bush years (I am able to point to the past administration as personal role models for family and decency for my kids)

Again, just a few things that I think the country "got" from the last eight years. The list could obviously go on.

I hope, Dutch, you think about it from the other side in a similar way.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Are you for real?

Originally Posted by Dutch

You boyz are hilarious. You are up in arms. Angry. Upset. I get it. You had 8-years with your guy and you got nothing. It's sad, but I understand the frustration. I felt the same way after GWB and he was my guy. Good luck dealing with the realization that sometimes you don't always win. It takes a minute.

O shit, you've got me. I just kidding. Of course America first means "we don't give two fucks about anyone else except us. The rest of you are on your own, unless you make it worth our while to give a half a fuck. Then it's negotiable." Right? Or does it mean that any deal will be for the benefit of the US? Trade deal? Security deal? Baseball card deal?

If you can't have a simple conversation, or are unwilling, then just say so. You're now the smartest guy in the room, right? Please, enlighten us on the true intentions of DJT. Or don't. I mean, if being a dick is the goal, then just keep that part up, it'll end up being more fun in the end for both of us.

[RainMaker]

Most people involved in politics care more about the football game than the actual policies. Te guy with an extremely left wing foreign economic policy plan being praised by Republicans should tell you all you need to know.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Me, too. But...

The Government Just Suspended A Move That Would Have Made Mortgages More Affordable

Way to go, Trump! Screwing the less affluent!

Don't Presidents normally pick something symbolic as their first order of business? Just seems odd you wouldn't hold off on the middle class tax hike for a time when it won't be seen by many.

Drain the swamp though!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Is there a good example of a country prospering with policies of protectionism and isolationism?

Originally Posted by Dutch

Fine. Which country should America be putting first then?

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I think Reagan tended to put America first without policies of isolationism and protectionism. Right?

Originally Posted by Galaril

Isolationism and protectionism is NOT putting America first in the mid or long term.

Originally Posted by cartman

None of that answers the questions that were posed to you...

The questions posed to me were not posed to JPhillips or even Galaril. I responded affirmatively to JPhillips. I know what he meant. You know what he meant. What difference does it make?

But if JPhillips is gonna make a quip about "America First" (not his words but what we are talking about here) sarcastically or pessimistically or whatever, than what country should be first? Was that answered? No. It's not up for debate. The US President will put the US first. It's easy for JPhillips or Galaril or even you to say, "Yeah, we aren't against the US being the priority." But you didn't when asked.

And if you would like me to not just say, "Fine" but adamantly oppose a strict policy of "isolationism and protectionism" I would say that. Because this is global. The economy, security, modernization.

But opponents too easily cherry pick the data that they want and paint with a broad brush. We all know that is the case here as well.

So it's all rather just silly. So when PilotMan gets on his high-horse and desperately pleads, "Oh please, let's make this a serious conversation" after pages of comic images and sarcasm, and snipes, I have no problem responding, "Are you for real?" That's not trolling, if it is, then we are ALL trolls. So let's get over that.

So it really just breaks down to Trumps speech (because at this point, that's all we really have to go by until action takes place). What did he say? What did he say right? What did he say wrong? He talked about quite a few things that destroys the notion of "isolationism". He doesn't say much that destroys the notion of "protectionism". But we are at a point where jobs are leaving and former President Obama quipped, "We can't just wave a magic wand to bring them back." and now President Trump doesn't believe that. Why shouldn't we support that? We are in dire straights on the global economic level. We need to own that so we can improve. The first step is denial, the second is understanding that we have a problem (actually I think it might be anger, but whatever we're on that bridge too). We are at least there now.

[CraigSca]

And if I see this re-tweet one more time on my timeline, I'm going to barf.

But yeah, Trump and the Republicans are all about the fake news.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by digamma

-Marriage equality (I personally got to see some close friends get married)
-Millions with health insurance options they didn't have previously, though an imperfect law and understandably difficult for small businesses and independent consultants, the ACA had many positive components (and personally I saw three of my children's grandparents able to take advantage of some ACA provisions, including one with rather amazing end of life care)
-The Capture and killing of one of America's greatest enemies (from this I got some national pride, though I think Obama could have handled the aftermath better)
-Important financial regulations, which again probably aren't perfect but add some rules to the wild, wild west that partially put us into the great recession (from this, my company was able to take advantage of certain areas where the banks used to play and do very well. personally, I've tried to develop valued expertise in understanding the regulations and done ok with that).
-A continued executive branch free from personal and salacious scandal building on that from the Bush years (I am able to point to the past administration as personal role models for family and decency for my kids)

I don't get the last one - are you saying the Bush years had or did not have personal and salacious scandal?

Also - to #1, Obama was anti-gay marriage upon being elected. I think we ALL grew up as a country in the past 8 years, though I'm not sure Obama can take credit for that one.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by digamma

Dutch is very into the football game of this, and I think that's unfortunate. I think that attitude is what got us to where we are today. Division and scoreboard rather than real discourse about the country's needs.

As far as what I "got" from the last 8 years, I think it's quite a lot. I try to look at it more in terms of what the country got, and I think I benefitted some from that. Just to name a few:

-Marriage equality (I personally got to see some close friends get married)
-Millions with health insurance options they didn't have previously, though an imperfect law and understandably difficult for small businesses and independent consultants, the ACA had many positive components (and personally I saw three of my children's grandparents able to take advantage of some ACA provisions, including one with rather amazing end of life care)
-The Capture and killing of one of America's greatest enemies (from this I got some national pride, though I think Obama could have handled the aftermath better)
-Important financial regulations, which again probably aren't perfect but add some rules to the wild, wild west that partially put us into the great recession (from this, my company was able to take advantage of certain areas where the banks used to play and do very well. personally, I've tried to develop valued expertise in understanding the regulations and done ok with that).
-A continued executive branch free from personal and salacious scandal building on that from the Bush years (I am able to point to the past administration as personal role models for family and decency for my kids)

Again, just a few things that I think the country "got" from the last eight years. The list could obviously go on.

I hope, Dutch, you think about it from the other side in a similar way.

Trust me, I'm here. On FOFC. Where the vast majority of posters are explaining the "other side". Sometimes it's effective.

I truly wish I had more time to explain my POV, and I admit many times I'm forced to just drop a one-liner and I know that's not fair to me or to FOFC. Especially when I know so many are interested in the right's (or the counter) opinion. It's what makes this enjoyable. So anyway, I know I'm not doing myself justice or the POV.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

I don't get the last one - are you saying the Bush years had or did not have personal and salacious scandal?

Also - to #1, Obama was anti-gay marriage upon being elected. I think we ALL grew up as a country in the past 8 years, though I'm not sure Obama can take credit for that one.

I changed my hardcore stance on Homosexuality too. I think it was just a sign of the times.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm just gonna drop an anecdotal observation in here.

I'm pretty much me, 24/7, here or FB or Twitter or wherever. And my occasional comments, observations, whatever, are pretty consistent.
I dropped a quick throwaway comment in a local newspaper FB posting yesterday. Not my "A" material, just a quick drive-by comment (on an article about local student & faculty protests). Not my first by any means, nothing remotely out of the ordinary about it. Typically, I'll get maybe 15 Likes on something like that, high-end response is around 25-30 Likes.

It crossed the 100 Like threshold in about four hours yesterday.

My observation is simply this: the regime change seems to have considerably empowered a significant number of very angry, very frustrated, very pent-up people. The train is getting bigger, and it's picking up speed. I'd advise those determined to "make a stand" to choose wisely where they do so, otherwise they may just find themselves run over.

[cartman]

For me, I'd put more stock in the numbers of people that showed up today versus yesterday than I would likes on a comment.

[JPhillips]

America First doesn't mean anything to me. It's a slogan, kind of like Coke is it. You responded to a question about policy implications with the equivalent of, "If Coke isn't it, what is?"

I'll give you that isolationism may not be the right word. I'm not sure there is a word for the foreign policy plans, but there's been a clearly expressed intent to distance ourselves from many of our traditional allies and alliances. That coupled with a protectionist trade policy doesn't have a great history.

There is more than one option. The nation doesn't have to follow these policies, but if we're going to, shouldn't we look to see what's worked in the past? Already our willingness to walk away from TPP, which admittedly has a number of supporters on the left, has opened the door for China to build a regional trade pact.

[JPhillips]

They're this unhinged on day 2?

[kingfc22]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They're this unhinged on day 2?

But it was YUGE. Magnificent. The crowd was so large it could be seen from space.

Seriously. These guys have much bigger issues to tackle or so I've been told (Obamacare, the wall, jobs, Merica).

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

They're this unhinged on day 2?

Actually, I think the first thing they refer to makes a lot of sense. The second one, not so much.