11-21-2015, 12:56 PM | #1401 | |
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I'm far more afraid of some American who owns a gun going off and killing me or someone I love than I am of a terrorist attack. But try mentioning a database to track all gun owners and see what kind of response one gets.
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11-21-2015, 01:33 PM | #1402 |
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Which is little more than security theatre.
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11-21-2015, 01:45 PM | #1403 | |
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I agree a database with relatively benign collection of data points of foreigners/immigrants/refugees etc. is unlikely to stop another terrorist attack. Therefore, it will logically need to store/track more information on "people of interest". Some simple examples are: 1) I want to know who came from/went to Syria/Iran, length of stay, why etc. 2) Has someone studied at a Madras 3) Has someone called a phone number that may be of interest Defining what those variables are and how to track them will be a challenge but not unworkable. I suspect much of these are already being done. The mistake Trump made was saying only for Muslims. |
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11-21-2015, 02:51 PM | #1404 | |
"Dutch"
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So the homicide problem in America isn't enough, you want to add terrorism in to the mix as well? |
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11-21-2015, 03:02 PM | #1405 | |
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Are you seriously saying there has never been a terrorist attack in the US? What else could you mean by 'adding to the mix'?
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint Last edited by cartman : 11-21-2015 at 03:03 PM. |
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11-21-2015, 03:33 PM | #1406 | |
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I expect something along those lines already exists. A targeted database of persons of interest makes sense. That's a far cry from your original intent to have a database for foreigners.
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11-21-2015, 03:48 PM | #1407 | |
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Sure it starts with collecting data on a large pool of foreigners/immigrants/refugees and then it gets further refined and enriched as needed. I wouldn't start with a blank database and add one by one "persons of interest". |
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11-21-2015, 03:50 PM | #1408 |
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I'm more worried about leaky borders and student visas than refugees. But if you look at the massive identification fraud perpetuated by Dominican baseball players, I suppose it makes me pause.
Last edited by stevew : 11-21-2015 at 03:50 PM. |
11-21-2015, 03:57 PM | #1409 | |
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How much time are you willing to waste on tens of millions of foreigners that aren't a threat? This is why we work with other countries. We want to spend our time on high risk threats, not just anyone from another country. Rather than making us safer, targeting everyone will make us less safe.
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11-21-2015, 04:03 PM | #1410 | |
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A database(s) on all/most foreigners/immigrants already exists, it has to as people apply for some sort of visa or go thru airport immigration. I don't think you can (efficiently) identify high risk threats without database(s) of some sort. How else can we identify high risk threats? I think we agree on some sort of database but differ on approach and how much to put into it? |
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11-21-2015, 04:09 PM | #1411 |
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Would that be before he gets out of the way in the primary or after?
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11-21-2015, 04:56 PM | #1412 |
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11-21-2015, 05:11 PM | #1413 | |
"Dutch"
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Of course not, Cartman. What I mean, is increasing the risk during a time when terror cells are increasing their global reach and their rhetoric is seemingly converting into an actual global Jihad. Last edited by Dutch : 11-21-2015 at 05:12 PM. |
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11-21-2015, 05:14 PM | #1414 | |
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I think the increased risk would be minimal. That's just me.
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11-21-2015, 05:17 PM | #1415 | |
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None. Keep the stats quo on immigration and refugee numbers. We have enough Americans right now that need our support. When we learn to work with the people we have and the money we collect, then we can look at purchasing more population. And to be clear, we aren't letting refugees in for free....each one costs money. And for what? Have you ever been to a ghetto or a trailer park? Why add more people to this? Especially right now when ISIS is actively exporting Jihad fighters through the deportation of their poor people. |
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11-21-2015, 05:18 PM | #1416 |
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11-21-2015, 05:24 PM | #1417 | |
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*Known* terrorist databases exist. But we have no idea how good that DB even is and we sure dont know all the new recruits. |
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11-21-2015, 06:01 PM | #1418 |
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I'd be more concerned with a bunch of "brown people OMG!" coming over here thanking America and then the "southern white hicks OMG!" drive their trucks with their Confederate flags around the refugees and then the refugees just say, "Fuck it, I'm with ISIS." Last edited by Dutch : 11-21-2015 at 06:02 PM. |
11-21-2015, 06:09 PM | #1419 | |
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How about this: if we're concerned they'll go with ISIS for any reason then you don't let the scumbags in in the first place?
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11-21-2015, 06:21 PM | #1420 | |
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Caveat: 95% or more are not scumbags. ...but yes, in a nutshell...bingo. Last edited by Dutch : 11-21-2015 at 06:22 PM. |
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11-21-2015, 06:25 PM | #1421 | |
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The database he's proposing is for all foreigners, not just refugees. We'll always have immigrants, work Visa holders, students, tourists, business travel, etc. The number of refugees is so small in comparison to the larger inflow of foreigners that it's insignificant.
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11-21-2015, 06:29 PM | #1422 |
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Let's just agree to quibble about the percentages later.
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11-21-2015, 06:42 PM | #1423 | |
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Except in this case, it's significant because the refugees are coming from the heart of hell itself. |
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11-21-2015, 06:43 PM | #1424 |
"Dutch"
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11-21-2015, 06:52 PM | #1425 | |
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We can agree to disagree on that, but in terms of Edward's proposal and my objection the refugees really don't matter.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers Last edited by JPhillips : 11-21-2015 at 06:53 PM. |
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11-21-2015, 06:56 PM | #1426 |
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11-21-2015, 06:57 PM | #1427 |
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I wouldn't at all agree with that. EU nationals have committed more terrorist attacks than Syrian refugees.
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11-21-2015, 07:05 PM | #1428 |
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....fair....how about...10th generation or more French... (we're gonna find the sweet spot of agreement, JPhillips!)
Last edited by Dutch : 11-21-2015 at 07:06 PM. |
11-21-2015, 09:39 PM | #1429 |
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It's been said a thousand times, likely in this thread...you are more likely to be killed by somebody toting a gun they bought at a gun show without a background check than you are via a terrorist attack. The amount of silliness over there reinforces what Churchill may or may not have said about the electorate: The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
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Commish of the United Baseball League (OOTP 6.5) Last edited by miked : 11-21-2015 at 09:40 PM. |
11-21-2015, 10:19 PM | #1430 | |
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What are the chances of being killed by somebody toting a gun they bought at a gunshow without a background check? |
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11-21-2015, 11:03 PM | #1431 |
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OK. We're really way, way off topic here.
Sign of the times? Edwards (D) defeats Vitter (R) rather easily in the Louisiana governor's race. While Vitter was a flawed candidate, any kind of D win in the south these days is the anomaly. Probably why Jindal dropped out of the presidential race. What does it say when you're so unpopular that your party can't hold your seat in an area where you should be winning? |
11-22-2015, 05:24 AM | #1432 | |
"Dutch"
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So we are. Back to our regular scheduled broadcast. |
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11-22-2015, 12:29 PM | #1433 | ||||||
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Quote:
Quote:
Actually: Why American Landlords Love Refugee Tenants - Bloomberg Business Quote:
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So your solution is to increase the size of a data set that the government has already shown they can't properly assess (despite the billions we've thrown at the NSA for this very purpose)? Quote:
Easy solution: get rid of the southern white hicks. Dumb Hicks Are America's Greatest Threat No we're not. Refugees and keeping them out of America has become the GOP's top sound bite since Paris. Quote:
Turns out the GOP electorate finally decided to hold one of their elected officials accountable for their "family values" schtick. |
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11-22-2015, 12:42 PM | #1434 |
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Looks like the Carson bubble is busting. Iowa polls are showing his support collapsing and mostly going to Cruz, with Trump regaining the lead.
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11-22-2015, 07:52 PM | #1435 |
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I think an interesting dynamic on the GOP side is that the Trump/Carson numbers are starting to close in on, and in some cases jump over, the 50% mark in many national and state polls. Conventional thinking is that the number of candidates has been preventing a consensus establishment candidate, but I'm getting less sure of that the longer these numbers hold and grow.
Last edited by Swaggs : 11-22-2015 at 07:52 PM. |
11-22-2015, 08:03 PM | #1436 | |
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What a revelation that would be, that the party isn't actually dominated by pseudocons.
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11-23-2015, 08:19 AM | #1437 |
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The size of the "Freedom Caucus" in the House should show you that, Jon.
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11-23-2015, 08:56 AM | #1438 |
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The current frontrunner for the GOP spent the last week advocating a database for Muslims, encouraging protesters being beaten, retweeting bogus and racist crime stats, and falsely claiming that he saw Muslims in NJ celebrating 9/11.
He isn't funny at all, he's dangerous.
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11-23-2015, 08:59 AM | #1439 | |
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+1
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11-23-2015, 11:48 AM | #1440 | |
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The 2016 campaign is largely fact-free. That’s a terrible thing for American democracy. - The Washington Post |
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11-23-2015, 11:52 AM | #1441 |
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dola:
Trump's harmful and crazy positions don't bother me. I hope he is not elected President, but he's not hiding what he believes. The part that gets me, as that article notes, is the complete break from objective reality. I don't really care for post-modernism as a literary genre. I certainly don't like that its becoming the basis for political discourse. |
11-23-2015, 12:18 PM | #1442 |
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Trump is in the Howard Dean, Ross Perot, Newt Gingrich, Ron Paul and even Bernie Sanders "leading early" club. There was virtually no chance that any of these guys would ever win the nomination - but they all had either nice leads or a rabid/devoted following 1 year+ before the election. Once the party starts getting serious on a nominee, these guys start tapering off.
For those of you hoping/worried about a Trump/Sanders battle for the presidency, the smart money (and establishment) will be advocating a Rubio/Clinton matchup. Last edited by Arles : 11-23-2015 at 12:18 PM. |
11-23-2015, 12:23 PM | #1443 | |
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I agree that Trump will not win the nomination. He's like the run-n-shoot in the 80s. It looked really unstoppable at times. It was new and refreshing. And, when the rubber hit the road, it had significant flaws and lost to more traditional approaches. But NFL offenses all adopted and incorporated the parts of the run and shoot that worked. Tonight, you will see Tom Brady spread the field with 5 wide and hit someone on a 4 yard option route. I am afraid that political campaigns in the future will look at Trump and see what works. They will look at the fact that he suffers no electoral penalty for refusing to acknowledge objective facts, and the next round of politicians will adopt that approach. And we will all be worse for it. |
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11-23-2015, 12:28 PM | #1444 |
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I guess the positive (if you are worried about Trump's tactics) is that "what works" is thumbing your nose at the establishment and going as non-PC as possible to capture the "in my day, we could [insert current PC reference] without everyone getting all upset" crowd from the right or the "we need to tax those ungrateful rich bastards to pay for all of our expenses" crew on the left. The problem is the establishment ends up playing a major role in the selection of a nominee - so it's doubtful it will support a rogue operative.
For better or worse, guys like Sanders, Trump and Howard Dean are destined to fail in this current system. Last edited by Arles : 11-23-2015 at 12:29 PM. |
11-23-2015, 12:49 PM | #1445 |
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I think there's some degree of cried-wolf syndrome here at work, which is insidious in a weird way. The left, especially the intelligentsia left, has long suffered from an extra helping of the righteous indignation that shows up in politics. It's not just that the other guy has a bad idea, but goddammit the other guy has the wrong idea, which is far worse. It's hard to articulate, but this is a different flavor than just the run of the mill "we're right, they're wrong" stuff. Lots of political intellectuals (largely liberal sorts) effectively want to do the thinking for everyone across the political spectrum. So here, I basically agree with CC's argument. I find this stuff repellent. But those of us who do have already invested a lot of breath making similar-sounding claims about a wide range of topics... maybe global warming being the latest such case, but that's not the point. Anyway...yelling "that's false" sounds an awful lot like "that's wrong" and that sounds an awful lot like "I disagree with you" and everyone knows that doesn't mean a thing in politics. Especially when the source of the critique is already known for nose-up sneering at the rest of the little people with their mistaken ideas. |
11-23-2015, 12:53 PM | #1446 |
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There's a hell of a lot of difference between Trump's more and more openly racist vitriol and Sanders calling for a higher top marginal tax rate.
The problem with Trump and he roughly one third of the GOP he currently represents is that he's George Wallace in 2015. That and no one has the guts to call him out because they're worried about the one third that supports him. The GOP is damn close to a full out white nationalism party ala some of the Euro far right. In a two party system, that should terrify everyone.
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11-23-2015, 12:59 PM | #1447 |
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Is it possible that he's not a racist, but a guy pointing out problems that no one else has the guts to point out and he's labeled a racist because these problems involve non-whites?
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11-23-2015, 01:03 PM | #1448 |
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I think a lot of moderates are "open" to the idea of the republican party right now. Democrats have had their 8-year run and people are looking for a new option. If the party "goes more right" as a result, they will lose. Based on what I've seen through the primaries, the republicans seem a lot more open to new ideas than the democrats. Rand Paul is talking about cutting defense spending (gasp!), Rubio is talking about increasing entitlements for families (double gasp!) and Kasich has already done the whole "I'd support a gay couple's marriage" (passes out!!!!). These are massive shifts from 8 years ago. Even Trump is pretty moderate on social issues.
I don't see any movement to the right from the democrats. Maybe a little in Webb, but Hillary and Sanders are outflanking Obama to the left right now. Last edited by Arles : 11-23-2015 at 01:06 PM. |
11-23-2015, 01:23 PM | #1449 |
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Gambling odds for the nomination graphed over the last year. Rubio the clear favorite, Trump gaining ground, Bush cratered, and those with money on the outcome have never taken Carson seriously. (Hillary is at about 93% odds of winning on the Dem side)
Last edited by molson : 11-23-2015 at 01:27 PM. |
11-23-2015, 01:26 PM | #1450 | |
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I think that is what Quick is getting at too. I'm not sure it is possible for any political person to "pop off" and not be called something. While most seem to say they are not blindly devoted to their political team, it seems that the first response by most is usually to discredit the messenger and ignore the message. |
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