NFL 2022-23 Season Thread

[Ksyrup]

McCaffrey might lead the league in most yards gained running backwards.

[cuervo72]

You know, I was thinking about running backwards the other day. Specifically, at the goal line. So not really running. But I was thinking that if you are trying to push your way across the goal line as part of a scrum, might you not want to be doing so with your back to it? Like, think about trying to push something like a stalled car. I feel like I can really get my legs into it if I'm facing away from what I'm pushing, like a squat. Just a random thought I had.

[Ksyrup]

Yeah, running is probably not the best way to describe it, but basically, moving with your back to the defense or facing your own goal. The main issue with doing that at the goal line is that if you don't fall into the end zone, you're never breaking the plane. However, it might reduce fumbles? Perhaps Melvin Gordon ought to experiment with it...

[thesloppy]

Kirk Herbstreit sucks eggs. He's not technically bad at his job, he's just an absolute snore. I've never watched a lot of college football, is/was he somehow remarkably different in that setting?

[QuikSand]

A while back, probably in last year's NFL season thread, I think I used Andy Dalton as my comp for Tua, as of where he was at that time (struggling behind an awful OL, in a makeshift offense built to help get the ball out in 1.5 seconds almost no matter what).

Now, I think I'm buying the emerging sense that his aspirational comp is really Kurt Warner. Tua's greatest gift seems to be pure accuracy, which sounds to a rank amateur like the only thing you'd need as a passer... sounds to a mid-level analyst like one of the least important things you'd need... and then maybe sounds to a more deeply seasoned analyst like a really useful separator at the more refined level.

I am not currently saying that Tua=Kurt. But I buy the notion that the path for Tua to develop from here (where the team's system seems to have been substantially "countered") to a long term successful career probably lies in him maxing out the things that work around a hyper-accurate arm. He (and his system) need to improve at reading coverages, working around disrupted timing, and adopting an even wider more take-what-they-give tree for him to find the right spaces to throw his darts.

It's not "muscle it in there" or anything assigned to the prodigious arm talent guys... it's more subtle. Tua has to make better reads, and continue to make excellent throws based upon them. That's not an insurmountable hurdle, I don't think. I think he will get a solid second contract, either from Miami or someone, based on what he has shown thus far, and I don't think he can be ruled out as a future ring-winner.

[GrantDawg]

Can he run a RPO? How is he on play action?

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

Can he run a RPO? How is he on play action?

RPO is his relative strong suit, shown last year when they devolved their entire offense into quick reads due to a dreadful OL that couldn't give a proper dropback time. He ran a ton of ROP in college as well, where he made the rep as a "Tank for Tua" worthy prospect.

I think this year, being asked to run more play action, he has been fine there, but nothing special. The MIA offense seems (to my intermediate eye) very timing based over the middle, and very read-based even when they run a fairly standard play action.

They don't really run a whole lot of "pretend it's a handoff up the middle, and then have one guy run deep in case the D gets fooled" high school level play action concepts in Miami this year. It's more "multiple looks from similar formations that include designed zone runs but also designed two-receiver options on the same side of the field." Goal is basically the same - to put a linebacker or safety to a test to commit to one thing at the expense of another - but it's a little more subtle than just "sell them that you no longer have the ball."

Tua might never get the full credit for what success he has, whether it's with Miami/McDaniel or elsewhere. Anywhere that he lands that works out particularly well is likely going to feel like a smart scheme, and he may look like a "system" guy -- again, this hounded Kurt Warner more than a little bit, too.

It's easy for any among us to marvel when Justin Herbert flips the ball 55 yards in the air to his guy who had a step or two on the safety. That's a no brainer big play, hats off. We also all share the awe when we see Patrick Mahomes concoct some improvised masterpiece, or when Josh Allen sails one on the money to Gabe in the corner of the end zone.

For Tua, it's more like watching a get-on-base baseball team that mostly doesn't steal or swing for the fences. He drops four straight make-able passes right where they need to be on a drive, one of them is placed so his guy can max out the YAC and another is just perfectly on the back shoulder out of reach of the corner in good coverage. Not highlight reel stuff, but it is the stuff that makes for a high passer rating and a very efficient modern offense.

I'm already trying to think ahead to a post-Tyreek Tua, where he doesn't have that safety net out there to cover up for flaws and so forth. I think three to five years from now, Tua could still be a top-8 NFL QB based on what he has shown and what he should be able to refine, even if he is dropped into a situation like, say, the 2022 Jets or Seahawks.

[albionmoonlight]

I think that the key with him will be health.

If I were the coaches, I'd take all Tua designed runs out the playbook. You can still keep in the read options--just tell Tua to always hand off the ball :-)

And I'd coach him to always slide and not fight for those extra yards when he does scramble.

That's the difference between a 10+ year career as a top-10 QB and a what-could-have-been career

[Honolulu_Blue]

Mike White... Out.

Zach Wilson... In.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

He isn't very good. He has 2 all pro receivers to bail him out of his routinely bad throws.

I stand by this statement about Tua, especially after that abortion of a performance Sunday night.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Mike White... Out.

Zach Wilson... In.

So, did Zach take his benching to heart? Has he been sleeping with the playbook under his pillow? Has he been working on footwork and fundamentals with the QB coaches after practice?

Or has he been pouting?

We will see on Sunday.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

For Tua, it's more like watching a get-on-base baseball team that mostly doesn't steal or swing for the fences. He drops four straight make-able passes right where they need to be on a drive, one of them is placed so his guy can max out the YAC and another is just perfectly on the back shoulder out of reach of the corner in good coverage. Not highlight reel stuff, but it is the stuff that makes for a high passer rating and a very efficient modern offense.

.

Guess you had other plans last Sunday night...

[albionmoonlight]

There's an interesting situation brewing in Arizona, where fired Kugler files Request for Arbitration - Footballscoop

There's a non-zero chance that the Cardinals fired their O-Line coach for sexual assault but it was actually their GM (who looks a lot like the O-Line coach) who committed the assault.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Guess you had other plans last Sunday night...

My guess is that he judges players on more than just one game.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

So, did Zach take his benching to heart? Has he been sleeping with the playbook under his pillow? Has he been working on footwork and fundamentals with the QB coaches after practice?

Or has he been pouting?

We will see on Sunday.

Speaking of which: the petulant sideline histrionics of Mac Jones the last couple of games have not exactly been the best optics- let alone any negative team-wide effect given the always latent tension about positional and racial double-standards as it pertains to labeling such behavior (demonstrative/selfish vs. charismatic/fiery).

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

My guess is that he judges players on more than just one game.

Hey, maybe the party is fully over for McDaniel and Tua. They only had one card to play, went all in on a zone-beater offense, and now that they have been exposed, they will never succeed any anything ever again. Sure, it's possible.

I think the far more likely scenario is that they got countered, and now they need to react to the counter. Not my novel view of things, this is what nearly anyone respectable in football is saying right now about the Dolphins offense. 49ers just outplayed them but did so with more man than they were used to, and the Chargers surprised them by pressing and playing more man as well - and they were (or Tue was) not prepared to adjust to that in-game. And it was indeed awful.

So, sure, maybe the story is totally over. I suspect it isn't for either of them (McD/Tua) and that this conversation about how to regard Tua remains pretty interesting and for the team, pretty important.

I suspect they will get pantsed by a motivated Bills team and maybe fizzle out what started out as a very promising season, but I'm not selling low here.

[molson]

Originally Posted by jcard

Speaking of which: the petulant sideline histrionics of Mac Jones the last couple of games have not exactly been the best optics- let alone any negative team-wide effect given the always latent tension about positional and racial double-standards as it pertains to labeling such behavior (demonstrative/selfish vs. charismatic/fiery).

Matt Patricia is such a lighting rod for everything. I'm starting to wonder why that's part of why he's there.

But ya, I don't think it's ideal for a young QB to learn that any failing can immediately subsumed by Patricia hate if he just tantrums enough. He could punch Patricia after a bad interception and most fans would cheer him on and blame Patricia for the pass being overthrown.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

RPO is his relative strong suit, shown last year when they devolved their entire offense into quick reads due to a dreadful OL that couldn't give a proper dropback time. He ran a ton of ROP in college as well, where he made the rep as a "Tank for Tua" worthy prospect.

I think this year, being asked to run more play action, he has been fine there, but nothing special. The MIA offense seems (to my intermediate eye) very timing based over the middle, and very read-based even when they run a fairly standard play action.

They don't really run a whole lot of "pretend it's a handoff up the middle, and then have one guy run deep in case the D gets fooled" high school level play action concepts in Miami this year. It's more "multiple looks from similar formations that include designed zone runs but also designed two-receiver options on the same side of the field." Goal is basically the same - to put a linebacker or safety to a test to commit to one thing at the expense of another - but it's a little more subtle than just "sell them that you no longer have the ball."

Tua might never get the full credit for what success he has, whether it's with Miami/McDaniel or elsewhere. Anywhere that he lands that works out particularly well is likely going to feel like a smart scheme, and he may look like a "system" guy -- again, this hounded Kurt Warner more than a little bit, too.

It's easy for any among us to marvel when Justin Herbert flips the ball 55 yards in the air to his guy who had a step or two on the safety. That's a no brainer big play, hats off. We also all share the awe when we see Patrick Mahomes concoct some improvised masterpiece, or when Josh Allen sails one on the money to Gabe in the corner of the end zone.

For Tua, it's more like watching a get-on-base baseball team that mostly doesn't steal or swing for the fences. He drops four straight make-able passes right where they need to be on a drive, one of them is placed so his guy can max out the YAC and another is just perfectly on the back shoulder out of reach of the corner in good coverage. Not highlight reel stuff, but it is the stuff that makes for a high passer rating and a very efficient modern offense.

I'm already trying to think ahead to a post-Tyreek Tua, where he doesn't have that safety net out there to cover up for flaws and so forth. I think three to five years from now, Tua could still be a top-8 NFL QB based on what he has shown and what he should be able to refine, even if he is dropped into a situation like, say, the 2022 Jets or Seahawks.

I want him in a Falcons uniform. I think he would be a perfect fit for Authur Smith's offense.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Hey, maybe the party is fully over for McDaniel and Tua. They only had one card to play, went all in on a zone-beater offense, and now that they have been exposed, they will never succeed any anything ever again. Sure, it's possible.

I think the far more likely scenario is that they got countered, and now they need to react to the counter. Not my novel view of things, this is what nearly anyone respectable in football is saying right now about the Dolphins offense. 49ers just outplayed them but did so with more man than they were used to, and the Chargers surprised them by pressing and playing more man as well - and they were (or Tue was) not prepared to adjust to that in-game. And it was indeed awful.

So, sure, maybe the story is totally over. I suspect it isn't for either of them (McD/Tua) and that this conversation about how to regard Tua remains pretty interesting and for the team, pretty important.

I suspect they will get pantsed by a motivated Bills team and maybe fizzle out what started out as a very promising season, but I'm not selling low here.

The offense has been very timing based and focused on attacking the middle vs zones, so I'll be interested to see if McDaniel can counter that this year or if he's another flash in the pan O guru who has one great idea but can't adapt. It shouldn't be impossible to attack outside the numbers with an accurate QB who has average arm strength (i.e. this isn't post surgery Chad Pennington out there). Maybe some bubble screens to Hill & Waddle help, maybe it's more shots deep to Hill if teams are paying less attention to him as a deep threat, maybe it's just more speculative throws by Tua in that 15+ yard range where he's really putting air under the ball and leading guys to a spot.

I certainly give that a better chance of happening than Zach Wilson being reformed and this Jets team getting behind him as their starter again!

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by jcard

Speaking of which: the petulant sideline histrionics of Mac Jones the last couple of games have not exactly been the best optics- let alone any negative team-wide effect given the always latent tension about positional and racial double-standards as it pertains to labeling such behavior (demonstrative/selfish vs. charismatic/fiery).

I have zero idea why some racial or positional double standard needs to be brought up or you think there would be tension within the team from it. Matt Patricia sucks as an OC, everyone including Belichick know it even if Bill won't make a midseason change. I think it's been exacerbated in part because we've played such shitty offenses many weeks a super conservative gameplan gave us the best shot to win, but Mac wants to push the ball down the field more like we did against Minnesota and the fans and players both back him. Heck if Bill was upset with it he'd bench Mac, but that's not his M.O. (Tom Brady also had pretty visible sideline venting at times, it's not a new thing.)

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

My guess is that he judges players on more than just one game.

and he still stinks and can't throw the ball more than 10 yards.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I have zero idea why some racial or positional double standard needs to be brought up or you think there would be tension within the team from it. Matt Patricia sucks as an OC, everyone including Belichick know it even if Bill won't make a midseason change. I think it's been exacerbated in part because we've played such shitty offenses many weeks a super conservative gameplan gave us the best shot to win, but Mac wants to push the ball down the field more like we did against Minnesota and the fans and players both back him. Heck if Bill was upset with it he'd bench Mac, but that's not his M.O. (Tom Brady also had pretty visible sideline venting at times, it's not a new thing.)

If you honestly think that the contextual lens through which the respective overt a sideline displays of dissatisfaction of a white QB and a Black WR are viewed, interpreted, and debated are the same, that is your prerogative. I am not interested in debating the matter, but will keep an open mind in considering past and future episodes.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

So, did Zach take his benching to heart? Has he been sleeping with the playbook under his pillow? Has he been working on footwork and fundamentals with the QB coaches after practice?

Or has he been pouting?

We will see on Sunday.

Even with Wilson starting, I’m still nervous about this game. I’m hopeful, but not confident. It’s hard to go on the road and win in December against a team battling for the playoffs. The Lions road record is pretty terrible and Goff has pretty bad numbers in cold weather games. A Zach Wilson redemption game is exactly the type of game the Lions would fall victim to.

It’s, also, hard to imagine the Lions as actually being a good football team.

[thesloppy]

Yeah, that last part is really the hardest part for us long-suffering Lions fans. We're conditioned to expect the worst, no matter how many wins come before it...and this team certainly wasn't very good for the first 7 games of the season and a few quick injuries could turn them back into that team at any time.

Having said all of that, already-been-benched Zach Wilson does seem like a downgrade for the Jets & a strong opportunity for the Lions to keep rolling.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Yeah, that last part is really the hardest part for us long-suffering Lions fans. We're conditioned to expect the worst, no matter how many wins come before it...and this team certainly wasn't very good for the first 7 games of the season and a few quick injuries could turn them back into that team at any time.

Having said all of that, already-been-benched Zach Wilson does seem like a downgrade for the Jets & a strong opportunity for the Lions to keep rolling.

It does, but then you tap into your only memories as a Lions fan and all you can think about is all of the shitty quarterbacks who have had career games against them. All you need to do is look at Mitch Trubisky’s stats versus the Lions versus his stats against every other team.

Still, it’s fun and exciting to actually be playing meaningful games in December. We’re, also, still getting the familiar - draft watch - with the Rams, so it’s like we have training wheels.

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Tua stuff

I listened to The Athletic's podcast last night, and they had deeper insight than I into the Chargers' scheme that messed up the Dolphins. A bit more complicated than just press man, but it definitely was a revelation for defenses to gather how to stop the early-2022 Dolphins offense (with the central message still "stop relying on simple zone because you fear their speed so much"). I don't think this changes my thinking above, but the way out for McD/Tua is tricky.

[Ksyrup]

What the hell am I watching?

[miami_fan]

Is it mandatory for Kirk Cousins do that "throw off the back foot for no reason" throw in every game? I swear he made that exact throw the last time I watched the Vikings play on Thanksgiving night.

[albionmoonlight]

All of the analytics people were saying that if you looked at point differential, one-score games, etc. the Vikings were not nearly as good as their record.

And I believed that. But I believed it intellectually, not in my soul. A 10-2 team is still good, right? They have to be, right? Maybe not 10-2 good. But still good.

This is something to behold.

[bhlloy]

Feels like Cousins has at least 3-4 of these games a season if not more. Not that this is all on him in the slightest. They have got their ass kicked in every phase of the game possible - against a team who lost their best player on the first drive

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

All of the analytics people were saying that if you looked at point differential, one-score games, etc. the Vikings were not nearly as good as their record.

And I believed that. But I believed it intellectually, not in my soul. A 10-2 team is still good, right? They have to be, right? Maybe not 10-2 good. But still good.

This is something to behold.

NFL Standings If The Outcomes Of One Possesion Games Were Flipped - YouTube

Vikings would've been 1-11

[flere-imsaho]

As I understand it, the Vikings' record this season is an historical-level outlier.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

and he still stinks and can't throw the ball more than 10 yards.

And you're free to believe that, but my point was that Quik and others were actually engaged in thoughtful discussion of the Dolphins scheme and Tua's play, and you just jumped in with a dumb, trollish post about one game.

[BishopMVP]

I think this would literally be the largest comeback in NFL history. (Frank Reich game was 32 at most)

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by jcard

If you honestly think that the contextual lens through which the respective overt a sideline displays of dissatisfaction of a white QB and a Black WR are viewed, interpreted, and debated are the same, that is your prerogative. I am not interested in debating the matter, but will keep an open mind in considering past and future episodes.

This reads like an OpenAI nightmare.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

And you're free to believe that, but my point was that Quik and others were actually engaged in thoughtful discussion of the Dolphins scheme and Tua's play, and you just jumped in with a dumb, trollish post about one game.

It’s not about one game. I’ve literally been saying it for months. It’s also not trolling just because you don’t like it or agree.

[Lathum]

You can’t blow that call. Horrendous.

[sovereignstar v2]

These refs should be cleaning bathrooms after this showing.

[Jas_lov]

Terrible reffing. They usually let it play out.

[bhlloy]

Justin Jefferson is a cheat code

[sovereignstar v2]

These refs don't let it play out.

https://twitter.com/SeanBormanNFL/st...u9PBvkJfg&s=19

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It’s not about one game. I’ve literally been saying it for months. It’s also not trolling just because you don’t like it or agree.

That post was dumb and trollish. Again, you responded to a long and thoughtful post by Quik with "hurdy hur you must have been asleep during this game."

There are plenty of ways to intelligently criticize Tua's play or his performance without trolling. You didn't even attempt to do that.

[Atocep]

One of the worst calls you'll see in an NFL game. Completely took the life out of the Vikings.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

That post was dumb and trollish. Again, you responded to a long and thoughtful post by Quik with "hurdy hur you must have been asleep during this game."

There are plenty of ways to intelligently criticize Tua's play or his performance without trolling. You didn't even attempt to do that.

Ive been doing it for months. That game sunday was literally the opposite of what he was saying. Sorry you don’t like my delivery. There is a block feature.

You can keep trying but I don’t think Tua is gonna fuck you.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

One of the worst calls you'll see in an NFL game. Completely took the life out of the Vikings.

Yeah. At the very least should be a 2 point game with the Vikings kicking off with a lot more time to get the ball back and only needing a field goal.

[sovereignstar v2]

I dare these assholes to overturn this after all the previous early whistles.

[Lathum]

Dalvin Cook. Jesus.

[Jas_lov]

Good to see they tied it after that blown call. What a comeback.

[bhlloy]

Whole lot of hot taeks from about 90 minutes ago being quietly deleted right now. Mine included.

[bronconick]

Vikings might win this in regulation