Werewolf LXXVI - The Werewolf Draft! Game over, see last pages for details

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

QUESTION FOR CRONIN

Are there any roles in this game that are not listed in the rule set?

No, although as I said earlier, not all roles work exactly the way you might expect.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

Is there a possibility that the fake seer could be given real information sometimes and fake other times? I haven't ever played with this role, and I know we don't know for sure what the fake seer gets for info - but is that a possibility?

A normal mechanic for this role is that the fake seer (or fool) always gets light/good scans or all dark/bad scans. Some GMs always make it random, but Cronin said there is zero random in this game. It could also alternate good/bad, but Lathum has gotten two light/good scans. A final mechanic would be to always get the opposite of the truth, but that's not foolish enough.

Does that help?

[mccollins]

Looks like Alan just said pretty much everything I did - my bad.

[PackerFanatic]

Yup, I understand. Just trying to see how a lynch of Telle can help us (since most of us think that if Lathum is telling the truth, he is the fake seer) - but other than a voting history, it won't help us out Lathum.

[PackerFanatic]

No worries - thanks to you both

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Telle

Votes as of post 1390:

4 - Telle - Passacaglia (1268), GoldenEagle (1273), oliegirl (1274), Chief Rum (1383)
4 - Passacaglia - Telle (1316), saldana (1340), RendeR (1356), LoneStarGirl (1389)
3 - saldana - Alan T (1281), claphasma (1291), Mrs. Schmidyt (1358)
1 - Danny - Lathum (1256)
1 - oliegirl - EagleFan (1311)
1 - LoneStarGirl - PackerFanatic (1319)

I have this as well with the exception of Danny voting for oliegirl in 1282. However, it wasn't on its own line so I'm not sure if it counts.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Telle

Well I am going to come back as good, so start thinking from there. Where does that lead you?

I'm obviously not liking Pass too much but I'm having trouble discerning whether or not it's because his pushiness is wolfy or because I'm taking it personally.

No need to take it personally (and I'm sorry if you have) -- it's all just part of the game!

[mccollins]

Pass's quiet play on day 1 and late vote switching (to try to control the voting?) have stood out to me, but I can't tell if they are just actions from a helpful villager or not.

I'm still not sure I fully understand the run on Telle (3 votes between 1268-1274) beyond general suspicion. And let's be honest - not many of us have engendered much trust.

In response to my request yesterday for veterans, I'm going to vote for one that showed up on both lists that will also keep 3 candidates close for today to see if we finally have some crazy vote movement that might help us out a wolf:

Vote Saldana

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Restating the argument against Telle is for someone else to do I suppose...

Pass, can you lay this out for everyone since you seem to be the driver on this?

[mccollins]

Votes as of post 1409 (assuming Danny's vote counts):
4 - Telle - Passacaglia (1268), GoldenEagle (1273), oliegirl (1274), Chief Rum (1383)
4 - Passacaglia - Telle (1316), saldana (1340), RendeR (1356), LoneStarGirl (1389)
4 - saldana - Alan T (1281), claphasma (1291), Mrs. Schmidty (1358), McCollins
1 - Danny - Lathum (1256)
1 - oliegirl - Danny (1282), EagleFan (1311)
1 - LoneStarGirl - PackerFanatic (1319)

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by mccollins

I have this as well with the exception of Danny voting for oliegirl in 1282. However, it wasn't on its own line so I'm not sure if it counts.

I will count those votes when I find them - the problem is it is almost impossible for me to see those votes unless I know they are there.

4 - Telle - Passacaglia (1268), GoldenEagle (1273), oliegirl (1274), Chief Rum (1383)
4 - Passacaglia - Telle (1316), saldana (1340), RendeR (1356), LoneStarGirl (1389)
3 - saldana - Alan T (1281), claphamsa (1291), Mrs. Schmidty (1358)
2 - oliegirl - Danny (1282), EagleFan (1311)
1 - Danny - Lathum (1256)
1 - LoneStarGirl - PackerFanatic (1319)

[Mrs. Schmidty]

I'm off to work and I have no access there so this is it for me until around 4ish pst. I hate to see it tied up like it is but I like where my vote sits so I'm not going to be the one moving. At least there is still a few hours before deadline.

[Chief Rum]

All right, car troubles. So strangely enough, I am around until I can get a rental car (probably around 11-11:30ish EST).

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Pass, can you lay this out for everyone since you seem to be the driver on this?

You didn't like my previous thoughts on Telle?

She is one of many that have a pretty bad voting record right now.. but that alone doesn't seperate her from most of you.. She also however was singled out by several different people recently.. plus we have a data point involving her with Lathum as well. Simply speaking, I think a lynch of Telle (evil or good) tells us more about others still in this game than anyone else does currently.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

heh I don't remember that! Go ahead and suspect it if you like...just vote Telle first!

Heh...that's what I ended up doing.

[Mrs. Schmidty]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I will count those votes when I find them - the problem is it is almost impossible for me to see those votes unless I know they are there.

4 - Telle - Passacaglia (1268), GoldenEagle (1273), oliegirl (1274), Chief Rum (1383)
4 - Passacaglia - Telle (1316), saldana (1340), RendeR (1356), LoneStarGirl (1389)
3 - saldana - Alan T (1281), claphamsa (1291), Mrs. Schmidty (1358)
2 - oliegirl - Danny (1282), EagleFan (1311)
1 - Danny - Lathum (1256)
1 - LoneStarGirl - PackerFanatic (1319)

+ mccollins vote ties it up between Telle, Pass and Saldana (post 1408)

[PackerFanatic]

Of the three tied right now, I feel that at least one of them is a wolf...and I really have strong feelings toward Saldana.

UNVOTE LONESTARGIRL
VOTE SALDANA

[Alan T]

Plus if Telle comes back evil, based on my current hunch that I'm playing through my head that I know who the fake seer is (and in my crazy world, it is not Lathum)... but I'll keep that to myself for now since it seems that I am in the minority currently.

[Alan T]

In fact, I think I talked myself into it for now even..

Unvote Saldana

Vote Telle

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by saldana

really, the only reasoning i had was that i didnt like the vote for barkeep and you are one person that I can never figure out, so out of the candidates at the time, you were the logical choice for me.

Fair enough. It just seems weird how often lately I have been targetted in games without anything that sounds like a reason. It's more of an eyebrow raiser to me, as I like to get a reason, something I can respond to. Not much I can counter with "gotta feeling...".

[Lathum]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY GE!!

UNVOTE DANNY
VOTE GE

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

No, although as I said earlier, not all roles work exactly the way you might expect.

Yeah, figured that from Alan's duke role. Cool, I was only concerned with there not being new roles, given saldana's hypothesis of Alan being a potential wolf duke.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by PackerFanatic

Yup, I understand. Just trying to see how a lynch of Telle can help us (since most of us think that if Lathum is telling the truth, he is the fake seer) - but other than a voting history, it won't help us out Lathum.

I just want to clarify I am telling the truth about being told I was the seer. My theory is thay I am the fake seer.

I have no way of knowing if I am fake or real.

[Lathum]

just kidding GE

UNVOTE GE
VOTE PASSACAGLIA

[PackerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I just want to clarify I am telling the truth about being told I was the seer. My theory is thay I am the fake seer.

I have no way of knowing if I am fake or real.

Understandable - and I was just clarifying (for myself more or less) that even if one of your tells (Telle or Pass) is lynched - it won't really help us determine if you are real or fake yet.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Pass, can you lay this out for everyone since you seem to be the driver on this?

I'm not really sure if I am the driver anymore -- I think some people have votes on her because of Lathum's scan on her. I can't comment on that, because like I said earlier, that hasn't affected me.

My thinking is that her vote for Lathum came after his reveal, but before DT's, and my hunch is that she was trying to feed off doubt in Lathum's reveal, and possibly get the seer. Of course, if this is true, I'd have to believe Lathum's story. If Lathum is a wolf, I could still see Telle's vote on him Day 1 as a way to clear her if Lathum goes down, but it's less likely -- I only bring this up because Lathum (and saldana's) recent vote on me have me wondering if they're trying to save Telle.

Telle says she avoided voting for Lathum on DT because Alan's move made her reflect on it, and think that maybe Lathum was the seer. My suspicion has been that she voted for Lathum when there was more of a chance he could actually be killed, but Day 2, it was going to be much more of a struggle to get Lathum lynched. I realize that my votes were the same as hers, but I think the timing is important here. When I voted Lathum at the end of Day 1, I was trying to get a tie and no lynch, whereas Telle's vote put Lathum ahead by 2.

And that's all I got.

[Alan T]

I am thinking considering the people I suspect the most right now are all on Passacaglia for today's vote that either I am paranoid delusional or I feel really good about my vote right now and someone is trying to save a wolf by getting Pass lynched.

[Lathum]

Pass I'm sorry I just don't buy the tie-no lynch argument.

did you really think you could pull off a tie with 21 people voting and then get past the masons?

[st.cronin]

5 - Telle - Passacaglia (1268), GoldenEagle (1273), oliegirl (1274), Chief Rum (1383), Alan T (1419)
5 - Passacaglia - Telle (1316), saldana (1340), RendeR (1356), LoneStarGirl (1389), Lathum (1424)
4 - saldana - claphamsa (1291), Mrs. Schmidty (1358), mccollins (1408), PackerFanatic (1417)
2 - oliegirl - Danny (1282), EagleFan (1311)

no vote: SnDvls, Schmidty

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Am I the only one thinking KWhit made a huge reach with that theory and made too big a deal out of it?

no.

I thought while clever it was a huge stretch, not because of my abilities as a player, I just think the odds of Poli thinking of that and the odds of KWhit figuring that out are astronomical.

And the way DT sunk his teeth into it he was begging to call attention to himself.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm not saying we can count on it -- I just think it's our best option.

Here's post 758, where I said I just thought it was our best option, not that I thought it could be done easily.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I am thinking considering the people I suspect the most right now are all on Passacaglia for today's vote that either I am paranoid delusional or I feel really good about my vote right now and someone is trying to save a wolf by getting Pass lynched.

Passacaglia: Wolf Lightning Rod

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You didn't like my previous thoughts on Telle?

She is one of many that have a pretty bad voting record right now.. but that alone doesn't seperate her from most of you.. She also however was singled out by several different people recently.. plus we have a data point involving her with Lathum as well. Simply speaking, I think a lynch of Telle (evil or good) tells us more about others still in this game than anyone else does currently.

Ok here is my issue with this argment:

You say she's been picked out by a few people, this is untrue, the only person who truly came out against her was Pass, everyone else simply played off his original and I might add incorrect logic that her day 1 voting and subsequent night kill were somehow related which as has been shown they couldn't have been.

Your data point with her and Lathum is no beter/worse than whomever else lathum has scanned, so again, why the arbitrary choice here?

I'm certain she's good, Its a gut feeling which with her I almost never have. She's a terribly hard read for me in these games but I know in my guts she's good and that at least will keep me from voting for her over any number of equally useful voting options that we have today.

I really don't see where you're getting anything out of a lynch of Telle at this point that would be worth losing another villager after the utter calamity that was day 2.

Now lets step back and get an answer to my question for you last night:

Why are you suggesting that passacaglia should NOT explain himself and his voting choices? It makes no sense that you as the Duke would NOT want someone to clarify their position, especially when its obvious that Pass has been very suspicious.

So please, enlighten us, give us some reason to follow what for all affects appears to be a totally blind alley?

I'm willing to discuss lynching Sal or Pass today since they're the high vote getters, but I just don't like the run on Telle, its got no real basis, she's done nothing that half of us haven't done (including myself AND Pass). Its like Voting for Clap just because he's loud and obnoxious , its not a smart move.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

And that's all I got.

Thanks for that Pass.

Can you give me any help for understanding your day 1 play? Incredibly quiet and then trying hard for a tie?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Passacaglia: Wolf Lightning Rod

welcome to my world

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by mccollins

Thanks for that Pass.

Can you give me any help for understanding your day 1 play? Incredibly quiet and then trying hard for a tie?

Just biding my time, trying to decide what I thought about Lathum. The run on DT made me vote Lathum to keep it close, then DT's reveal made me want to try to save both, just in case. Hope that helps -- let me know if there's anything else I can answer.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Ok here is my issue with this argment:

You say she's been picked out by a few people, this is untrue, the only person who truly came out against her was Pass, everyone else simply played off his original and I might add incorrect logic that her day 1 voting and subsequent night kill were somehow related which as has been shown they couldn't have been.

Your data point with her and Lathum is no beter/worse than whomever else lathum has scanned, so again, why the arbitrary choice here?

I'm certain she's good, Its a gut feeling which with her I almost never have. She's a terribly hard read for me in these games but I know in my guts she's good and that at least will keep me from voting for her over any number of equally useful voting options that we have today.

I really don't see where you're getting anything out of a lynch of Telle at this point that would be worth losing another villager after the utter calamity that was day 2.

Now lets step back and get an answer to my question for you last night:

Why are you suggesting that passacaglia should NOT explain himself and his voting choices? It makes no sense that you as the Duke would NOT want someone to clarify their position, especially when its obvious that Pass has been very suspicious.

So please, enlighten us, give us some reason to follow what for all affects appears to be a totally blind alley?

I'm willing to discuss lynching Sal or Pass today since they're the high vote getters, but I just don't like the run on Telle, its got no real basis, she's done nothing that half of us haven't done (including myself AND Pass). Its like Voting for Clap just because he's loud and obnoxious , its not a smart move.

Subsequent night kill? When did I ever say anything about that?

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm not really sure if I am the driver anymore -- I think some people have votes on her because of Lathum's scan on her. I can't comment on that, because like I said earlier, that hasn't affected me.

My thinking is that her vote for Lathum came after his reveal, but before DT's, and my hunch is that she was trying to feed off doubt in Lathum's reveal, and possibly get the seer. Of course, if this is true, I'd have to believe Lathum's story. If Lathum is a wolf, I could still see Telle's vote on him Day 1 as a way to clear her if Lathum goes down, but it's less likely -- I only bring this up because Lathum (and saldana's) recent vote on me have me wondering if they're trying to save Telle.

Telle says she avoided voting for Lathum on DT because Alan's move made her reflect on it, and think that maybe Lathum was the seer. My suspicion has been that she voted for Lathum when there was more of a chance he could actually be killed, but Day 2, it was going to be much more of a struggle to get Lathum lynched. I realize that my votes were the same as hers, but I think the timing is important here. When I voted Lathum at the end of Day 1, I was trying to get a tie and no lynch, whereas Telle's vote put Lathum ahead by 2.

And that's all I got.

See I don't see the timing here making any difference, you both did the exact same thing, you say your reasons are better than hers? why? self preservation? If thats the case then just say it that way. nothing you stated in that post really shows any intent or malevelance on her part, but yesterday you hounded this into the ground to get things moving on her.

Right now you smell like wet fur my friend. The more you keep going around with that the more it stinks.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

Ok here is my issue with this argment:

You say she's been picked out by a few people, this is untrue, the only person who truly came out against her was Pass, everyone else simply played off his original and I might add incorrect logic that her day 1 voting and subsequent night kill were somehow related which as has been shown they couldn't have been.

Your data point with her and Lathum is no beter/worse than whomever else lathum has scanned, so again, why the arbitrary choice here?

I'm certain she's good, Its a gut feeling which with her I almost never have. She's a terribly hard read for me in these games but I know in my guts she's good and that at least will keep me from voting for her over any number of equally useful voting options that we have today.

I really don't see where you're getting anything out of a lynch of Telle at this point that would be worth losing another villager after the utter calamity that was day 2.

Now lets step back and get an answer to my question for you last night:

Why are you suggesting that passacaglia should NOT explain himself and his voting choices? It makes no sense that you as the Duke would NOT want someone to clarify their position, especially when its obvious that Pass has been very suspicious.

So please, enlighten us, give us some reason to follow what for all affects appears to be a totally blind alley?

I'm willing to discuss lynching Sal or Pass today since they're the high vote getters, but I just don't like the run on Telle, its got no real basis, she's done nothing that half of us haven't done (including myself AND Pass). Its like Voting for Clap just because he's loud and obnoxious , its not a smart move.

You are not correct, several people brought up Telle before Pass did. Lathum did originally on day 2, Goldeneagle I believe did before Pass as well, and there might be others.

As for answers to your other questions.. my role as Duke doesn't mean that I press everyone for every issue that anyone might want answers for.. It means that I can press people for answers to the questions that I want an answer to... and I have the power to do so if I don't get answers.

And just like I did yesterday with DaddyTorgo when people pushed me some on why I was acting oddly to do with him, it should be obvious at some point to most people that I have reasons for why I do what I do... and to say what my theories are at this time would only possibly get good people killed. Since the wolves know better than anyone else if I am right or wrong, and if I get a theory correct, it will point them exactly at who to target for night kills... So for now if you continue to push me on this, I'll assume you have some evil agenda.

[Telle]

And let's not forget that with the masons in the game a tie isn't as bad of a thing. Perhaps we should trust them to break a tie rather than trying to force a no-tie situation.

[Lathum]

I think a vote for Telle is a really bad idea.

I am almost positive she is a villager

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

Subsequent night kill? When did I ever say anything about that?

Argh, gimme a week, I'll slog through 20 pages of crap and find it.

[Lathum]

BTW-

anyone who thinks a vote for Telle will give us a data point for if I am the real seer or not, a vote on Pass will do the same thing since I scanned him last night.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

See I don't see the timing here making any difference, you both did the exact same thing, you say your reasons are better than hers? why? self preservation? If thats the case then just say it that way. nothing you stated in that post really shows any intent or malevelance on her part, but yesterday you hounded this into the ground to get things moving on her.

Right now you smell like wet fur my friend. The more you keep going around with that the more it stinks.

Self preservation? What are you talking about? I didn't have any votes on me at the time. To repeat, I made the move to try to save two villagers who had revealed roles -- if you'll recall, this is what Alan did, only he was better at it than I was! Telle just didn't believe Lathum, so voted for him.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Lathum

BTW-

anyone who thinks a vote for Telle will give us a data point for if I am the real seer or not, a vote on Pass will do the same thing since I scanned him last night.

Telle is the one that helps me out better though than Pass would.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Alan T

You are not correct, several people brought up Telle before Pass did. Lathum did originally on day 2, Goldeneagle I believe did before Pass as well, and there might be others.

As for answers to your other questions.. my role as Duke doesn't mean that I press everyone for every issue that anyone might want answers for.. It means that I can press people for answers to the questions that I want an answer to... and I have the power to do so if I don't get answers.

And just like I did yesterday with DaddyTorgo when people pushed me some on why I was acting oddly to do with him, it should be obvious at some point to most people that I have reasons for why I do what I do... and to say what my theories are at this time would only possibly get good people killed. Since the wolves know better than anyone else if I am right or wrong, and if I get a theory correct, it will point them exactly at who to target for night kills... So for now if you continue to push me on this, I'll assume you have some evil agenda.

I don't think I have ever felt like I just listened to a smarmy car salesman more than I do right now.

You may well be the duke but you're not ACTING like your trying to help anyone right now. We need clarity not more confusion Alan. Stop muddying everything up. If there is a reason to trust Pass then lets get it out there so we don't kill someone else that we need.

Assume what you like, I guarentee you that I am not a wolf and that my agenda is finding them.

I and others have shot the theories about telle to hell enough already, if you and those voting for her can't see that faults in the logic then I don't know what will convince you.

Don't lynch another villager, god knows with the luck we've had thus far she's probably got a role too. Our record in lynches isn't pretty right now.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Telle is the one that helps me out better though than Pass would.

No offense but who cares if it helps you more than say lathum or me or Schmidty? Why are you special?

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I don't think I have ever felt like I just listened to a smarmy car salesman more than I do right now.

You may well be the duke but you're not ACTING like your trying to help anyone right now. We need clarity not more confusion Alan. Stop muddying everything up. If there is a reason to trust Pass then lets get it out there so we don't kill someone else that we need.

Assume what you like, I guarentee you that I am not a wolf and that my agenda is finding them.

I and others have shot the theories about telle to hell enough already, if you and those voting for her can't see that faults in the logic then I don't know what will convince you.

Don't lynch another villager, god knows with the luck we've had thus far she's probably got a role too. Our record in lynches isn't pretty right now.

You've told two lies about me in the last half hour and accuse Alan of muddying things up? Irony.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

You've told two lies about me in the last half hour and accuse Alan of muddying things up? Irony.

Pass wears womens underwear.

thats no lie.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I don't think I have ever felt like I just listened to a smarmy car salesman more than I do right now.

You may well be the duke but you're not ACTING like your trying to help anyone right now. We need clarity not more confusion Alan. Stop muddying everything up. If there is a reason to trust Pass then lets get it out there so we don't kill someone else that we need.

Assume what you like, I guarentee you that I am not a wolf and that my agenda is finding them.

I and others have shot the theories about telle to hell enough already, if you and those voting for her can't see that faults in the logic then I don't know what will convince you.

Don't lynch another villager, god knows with the luck we've had thus far she's probably got a role too. Our record in lynches isn't pretty right now.

Well so far I'm not really at fault for the previous lynch as I wasn't pushing for the lead candidate, or the 2nd candidate or the 3rd candidate.. or the 4th candidate... and when you wanted everyone to focus on only those candidates, I even said so... So don't blame me when I tried to steer you away from that choice

Today is my day, this isn't about me trusting pass.. and in fact I'll feel one way or another about Pass a bit stronger perhaps after this vote.. This vote is to help me get a better read on several people (perhaps yourself included Render). This is the strongest that I have seen anyone fight against a lynch candidate so far, and there has to be a reason for it.

Like I said earlier, my choices for lynch today were either Saldana and Telle, but I agree that I'll learn more about others from a Telle lynch than a Saldana lynch. You either are with me or against me Render, thats fine, but one way or another I am going to find out about Telle today.. regardless if you want to help me or not.