Game of Thrones on HBO

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I find it funny how many people are upset over this episode. Do people just want stories that are all happy-go-lucky from beginning to end?

I've read the books so knew what was coming, but to speak against this, when I read the books this scene royally pissed me off, even worse than when Ned had died.

The issue is at the start of the story, the family that you get to know and like is the Starks. For the most part, the story seems relatively centered around them and they are the good, noble family that is easy to like. You aren't going to like the Lannisters, and the King seems to have all kinds of personal demons.. There really isn't much else you are introduced to early on in the story.

As the books progress, you meet more and more and more people and families along the way, but by then your well developed fondness for the Starks have already bloomed.. so then to pretty much lose every single character that you became attached to for the first few books is just a horrible gut punch.

So I'm not surprised at all that people got really upset at the episode. This isn't just wanting a feel good ending, this would be like watching the second Batman movie and the Joker killing Batman mid-story.

[DaddyTorgo]

And as far as "non book readers" being upset, I think this is really the time when it hits you that this isn't a standard "good guy prevails over bad guys in the end" narrative storyline, which is something that we're not that used to seeing on TV (to whit - look at the end of The Shield and people's reactions to that).

Some might say Ned's death is that point, but that still fits into the "standard narrative" in that it drives the action and motivation of the Starks, who are, as Alan points out, setup (at least nominally) as the main characters, if by nothing else then by virtue of their having a large part of the early action revolve around them. This is the moment when the gloves really come off and you go "oh wow...this isn't going to be like every other book series out there."

So their reaction isn't "I want a feel good happy story" betrayal, it's a "whoa...my mind is totally fucked" reaction.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Alan T

The issue is at the start of the story, the family that you get to know and like is the Starks. For the most part, the story seems relatively centered around them and they are the good, noble family that is easy to like.

Which is, of course, why they have to die.

Also in the books Robb comes across more sympathetic because while he makes a dumb marriage mistake, everything else about him seems to be uber-awesome. Of course, most of what we see of Robb comes from Catelyn's POV or his enemies talking about how he's kicking the crap out of them.

[GrantDawg]

This is long, but awesome. They show peoples reactions. First, to the attack, and then the final scenes of Rob and Cat.

Game of Thrones: Red Wedding Reactions Compilation - YouTube

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Yeah same here. I actually had to go back and read the scene again to be honest as I couldn't remember what the differences were, especially Robb's wife.

There were lots of relatively minor changes, but a couple that stands out that makes me think they are going to have to make some decently significant story line changes. The big one the stands out to me is The Blackfish.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

There were lots of relatively minor changes, but a couple that stands out that makes me think they are going to have to make some decently significant story line changes. The big one the stands out to me is The Blackfish.

What about him? He left to take a piss. Conceivably he could have gone outside the castle to piss/made an escape when he got wind of what was going down.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

There were lots of relatively minor changes, but a couple that stands out that makes me think they are going to have to make some decently significant story line changes. The big one the stands out to me is The Blackfish.

What do you think will be different with The Blackfish? I mean in the books he was holding Riverrun when the Red Wedding happened and here he left right before the killings. Do you think that will have a major effect?

[Drake]

I actually identified my experience after watching the episode as a trauma reaction. In other words, I realized that my actual feeling set was "I'm glad I saw it, but I don't think I'll ever watch that episode again."

That's an aversion -- a trauma-induced aversion, like a (really, really, really, really) mild form of PTSD. And I realized it's because I've spent 3 years getting to know these (imaginary) people, caring about them, etc., only to watch them get brutally murdered in front of my eyes. Hell, I've spent more time thinking about GoT people than my nephew-in-law who lived in Florida. He was killed in a motorcycle accident and my reaction was "That's sad. Doesn't really make much of a difference to me, though. I only saw the kid half a dozen times in 10 years."

Which is sort of twistedly amusing in an objective sort of way, but I treat it more as a deep respect for the quality work the folks on the show are doing (as well as George R.R. Martin). They've created a world and group of characters who are, in terms of emotional experience, more real to me than actual people I'm related to (by marriage, granted).

[Arles]

I haven't read the books, but I always felt Robb would have to pay some kind of price for not taking the strategic wedding. Back in the day, that was a huge part of dynasty/family survival. I had thought that maybe his wife would get killed and that would propel him to be more of a true leader. So, when I saw this episode, it was a little eye opening but I didn't feel super upset.

Robb always came off to me as a pretty poor leader in the show - like a rich guy's kid who inherits the company and wants to still live his life without making any sacrifices. He seemed to waiver on key decisions, couldn't control his mom and lacked the decisiveness (and even some of the punitive traits) most kings of that time had. If he would have ended up running things, I would have been disappointed in the story.

[Coffee Warlord]

[chinaski]

lol
Game of Thrones: Red Wedding Reactions Compilation - YouTube

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I've read the books so knew what was coming, but to speak against this, when I read the books this scene royally pissed me off, even worse than when Ned had died.

The issue is at the start of the story, the family that you get to know and like is the Starks. For the most part, the story seems relatively centered around them and they are the good, noble family that is easy to like. You aren't going to like the Lannisters, and the King seems to have all kinds of personal demons.. There really isn't much else you are introduced to early on in the story.

As the books progress, you meet more and more and more people and families along the way, but by then your well developed fondness for the Starks have already bloomed.. so then to pretty much lose every single character that you became attached to for the first few books is just a horrible gut punch.

So I'm not surprised at all that people got really upset at the episode. This isn't just wanting a feel good ending, this would be like watching the second Batman movie and the Joker killing Batman mid-story.

I think your description is correct, but I think that's exactly what Martin was going for. He is in a sense critiquing this tendency to look for heroes or sympathetic protagonists in literature. Even this far in the series he demonstrates that we still insist on this idea of "well these are the good guys that I like, so things will go difficultly but good for them." Instead he continually turns these tropes against the reader. I feel like it does it to good effect, in that he makes you pause, step back and reconsider what he's doing with this story. What does it mean? How am I meant to engage these characters? That's what good literature does, and there's an element of it here.

It reminds me of the book Galapagos by Kurt Vonnegut. In that book he uses a trick of putting an asterisk next to the name of the next character who is going to die in the story. He does some other techniques there which also completely undo the typical fictional technique of suspense. He does so not to be annoying, but to challenge the safe little box that fiction has become. Martin does the same thing here -- we approach the books with our 'fantasy novel' lenses and happily and complacently go along and then he pulls those off and forces us to approach the story in a completely new way.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Arles

Robb always came off to me as a pretty poor leader in the show - like a rich guy's kid who inherits the company and wants to still live his life without making any sacrifices. He seemed to waiver on key decisions, couldn't control his mom and lacked the decisiveness (and even some of the punitive traits) most kings of that time had. If he would have ended up running things, I would have been disappointed in the story.

This is one point that the tv show does not do a good job with compared to the books, is giving a feel for what their suggested age was. For the tv show and some of the various scenes, the actors are in their 20s, but in the books Jon I think was 14, Robb was 15, Danerys was like 13 or such? You can't have a nude scene with a 13 year old, and you aren't going to get the same acting quality from a 15 year old as you will from some of the actors in this show..

So I guess for me it is helpful to remember that Robb really was a kid and can't be expected to make the cool, calm decisions that say Tywin Lannister would have made.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Alan T

This is one point that the tv show does not do a good job with compared to the books, is giving a feel for what their suggested age was. For the tv show and some of the various scenes, the actors are in their 20s, but in the books Jon I think was 14, Robb was 15, Danerys was like 13 or such? You can't have a nude scene with a 13 year old, and you aren't going to get the same acting quality from a 15 year old as you will from some of the actors in this show..

So I guess for me it is helpful to remember that Robb really was a kid and can't be expected to make the cool, calm decisions that say Tywin Lannister would have made.

Yeah, which I think is a great part of the books. Any ohter novel the hero gets to be supergreat even if it make no sense that some inexperienced teen suddenly thrust into power would suddenly be a war genius or a super warrior or whatever. Martin keeps things more realistic. There's an advantage to age and experience and wisdom. It's not everything, but people pay for their blunders.

[Vince, Pt. II]

But didn't Martin come out and say that he wishes he had made the children older at the beginning of the series, and they're now older BECAUSE he feels it's more appropriate?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Vince, Pt. II

But didn't Martin come out and say that he wishes he had made the children older at the beginning of the series, and they're now older BECAUSE he feels it's more appropriate?

I don't know honestly if he did say that. I often got confused in the books on how fast time was passing due to the weird length of seasons, but I remember in season 1, Danerys's brother made a point to say she had just turned into a woman, which I took to follow the same path from the books of being a young girl.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Alan T

This is one point that the tv show does not do a good job with compared to the books, is giving a feel for what their suggested age was. For the tv show and some of the various scenes, the actors are in their 20s, but in the books Jon I think was 14, Robb was 15, Danerys was like 13 or such? You can't have a nude scene with a 13 year old, and you aren't going to get the same acting quality from a 15 year old as you will from some of the actors in this show..

So I guess for me it is helpful to remember that Robb really was a kid and can't be expected to make the cool, calm decisions that say Tywin Lannister would have made.

Fair point, but just like with Geoffrey - it goes to show how poor a leader a teenage king would be. There's no way a seasoned king handles the arranged marriage the way Robb did or leads like Geoffrey. So, it makes even more sense why Robb was taken out in that way. He was too young/weak/indecisive to lead that scope of people and it was going to catch up to him. I don't think seeing Rob played by a 17-year old actor would have added much to the show though. The show did a good job of portraying him as a young and somewhat foolish leader. I guess you may have slightly more sympathy for him if he was played by a young kid - but the end result still remained that he led like a kid and was taken out.

[DaddyTorgo]

Interesting blog post by a guy who thinks he's got ASOIAF all figured out and that it's a retelling of Ragnarok. If you buy his premise then the blog is obviously very spoilery. I haven't decided yet if I want to read it - I'm not familiar enough with the details of Ragnarok to be spoiled yet and so I wouldn't want to read the whole way he laid it out.

Game of Thrones & Norse Mythology: Ragnarök - The Song of Ice & Fire

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Arles

Fair point, but just like with Geoffrey - it goes to show how poor a leader a teenage king would be. There's no way a seasoned king handles the arranged marriage the way Robb did or leads like Geoffrey. So, it makes even more sense why Robb was taken out in that way. He was too young/weak/indecisive to lead that scope of people and it was going to catch up to him. I don't think seeing Rob played by a 17-year old actor would have added much to the show though. The show did a good job of portraying him as a young and somewhat foolish leader. I guess you may have slightly more sympathy for him if he was played by a young kid - but the end result still remained that he led like a kid and was taken out.

On the other hand, the show does a piss poor job of showing Robb's military prowess and battlefield leadership. His only real mistake in the books is marrying someone he wasn't supposed to. However, in the books, Robb was literally sacking the Lannister's home turf and was unable to be stopped. He made a number of brilliant tactical decisions. Even the way he deals with the Freys is shown better in the books. He's not dismissive as he is in the show, but rather thinks he can work out a deal. I don't think indecisive is a quality that many folks would have thought of Robb Stark from the books.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

On the other hand, the show does a piss poor job of showing Robb's military prowess and battlefield leadership. His only real mistake in the books is marrying someone he wasn't supposed to. However, in the books, Robb was literally sacking the Lannister's home turf and was unable to be stopped. He made a number of brilliant tactical decisions. Even the way he deals with the Freys is shown better in the books. He's not dismissive as he is in the show, but rather thinks he can work out a deal. I don't think indecisive is a quality that many folks would have thought of Robb Stark from the books.

I dont know the books so only going on the show itself but thats the more believable character to me that I dont think the show captured (if thats the essence of the book version of Robb).

I would expect this slightly over-emotional young guy (probably should be closer to 20 than 30) who has gains incredible confidence (perhaps arrogance to an extent) by defeating Lannister armies with cunning & tactical smarts. He then applies this to political decisions (such as the marriage) and pays for it.

Maybe thats what others saw from his TV show character but I saw the spoiled (albeit less than Joffrey) rich kid trying to be like his father. But in the end...he is not his father.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I dont know the books so only going on the show itself but thats the more believable character to me that I dont think the show captured (if thats the essence of the book version of Robb).

I would expect this slightly over-emotional young guy (probably should be closer to 20 than 30) who has gains incredible confidence (perhaps arrogance to an extent) by defeating Lannister armies with cunning & tactical smarts. He then applies this to political decisions (such as the marriage) and pays for it.

Maybe thats what others saw from his TV show character but I saw the spoiled (albeit less than Joffrey) rich kid trying to be like his father. But in the end...he is not his father.

Yeah - the show falls down a bit with the portrayal of him because of the age. Same thing with Sansa - she's supposed to be younger and thus more understandably naive instead of just dumb-seeming.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I would expect this slightly over-emotional young guy (probably should be closer to 20 than 30) who has gains incredible confidence (perhaps arrogance to an extent) by defeating Lannister armies with cunning & tactical smarts. He then applies this to political decisions (such as the marriage) and pays for it.

Maybe thats what others saw from his TV show character but I saw the spoiled (albeit less than Joffrey) rich kid trying to be like his father. But in the end...he is not his father.

In the books, also, Robb gets married to Jeyne Westerling a little bit after it is suggested that Bran & Rickon have been killed by Theon. That, btw, is also the reason Cat lets Jamie out of chains (she thinks she's just lost two of her sons and is overcome by grief). Robb's grief makes it more likely that he wasn't thinking straight when marrying Jeyne - and then he tries to make the best of the bad situation.

And, I'd disagree with the last line - in the end, he is his father - dead due to a (in hindsight) naively placed trust .

Also in both cases they meet their death as a result of their ideas of honor - Ned feels that honor demands that Cersei is allowed to flee King's Landing, while Robb feels that honor demands that he marry Jeyne after taking her maidenhood.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

What do you think will be different with The Blackfish? I mean in the books he was holding Riverrun when the Red Wedding happened and here he left right before the killings. Do you think that will have a major effect?

I said decently significant, not major. But it makes wonder if we are even going to have the Riverrun action. Especially since the actor that played Payne is dead. That might change that whole trip. That he somehow got out of the castle and returned to Riverrun is possible, but if it follows the story the two happenings are going to be relatively similar (without getting too spoiler-y).

[DaddyTorgo]

Westeros.org review of the episode. Game of Thrones: Episodes - The Rains of Castamere

I think Elio hits it right on when he says that the episode doesn't build the same sense of "dread" and something being "not right" about the wedding that you get in the book.

I think the reasoning for that isn't due to trying to take the "easy way out" or anything, but is completely down to the decision to intersperse other scenes with the RW rather than show it as one long bit at the end (which would have enabled much more tension to be built up).

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Westeros.org review of the episode. Game of Thrones: Episodes - The Rains of Castamere

I think Elio hits it right on when he says that the episode doesn't build the same sense of "dread" and something being "not right" about the wedding that you get in the book.

I think the reasoning for that isn't due to trying to take the "easy way out" or anything, but is completely down to the decision to intersperse other scenes with the RW rather than show it as one long bit at the end (which would have enabled much more tension to be built up).

It really comes down to timing of the episode and the nature of exposition versus visualization. The actress playing Cat did well at showing concern as the events were getting close, but not knowing that the musicians were playing The Raines of Castamere which caused the growing suspicion at the end caused something to be lost. Those of us that read the books recognized the song and her reason for getting tense, but that didn't translate well. Leaving out the explanation of guest-rights caused something to be lost too.

I'm not sure that I caught all of the tension in the book. Things were definitely odd, but I always thought Frey was just a cantankerous old man and didn't read enough into it. I also thought guest-rights were absolute, so I downplayed any tension I did feel.

[Dodgerchick]

Not having read any of the books after watching this episode I felt... lost. I told Antmeister that we had to watch something else and pronto so I can rinse my brain.

[Dodgerchick]

dola,

but I most definitely will continue watching, for damned sure.

[Senator]

Someone said to a non-reader, "Remember 13 years ago when your nerd friend was so sad for a few days. That was what your experiencing now."

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by BrianD

It really comes down to timing of the episode and the nature of exposition versus visualization. The actress playing Cat did well at showing concern as the events were getting close, but not knowing that the musicians were playing The Raines of Castamere which caused the growing suspicion at the end caused something to be lost. Those of us that read the books recognized the song and her reason for getting tense, but that didn't translate well. Leaving out the explanation of guest-rights caused something to be lost too.

I'm not sure that I caught all of the tension in the book. Things were definitely odd, but I always thought Frey was just a cantankerous old man and didn't read enough into it. I also thought guest-rights were absolute, so I downplayed any tension I did feel.

Too bad they didn't get into the guest rights bit. That was a big deal in the books.

Explaining the Rains of Castamere would have been a nice touch to clue in the non-readers. Though I can see that would have been tough to work in. Maybe Tywin could have explained it to someone to put them in their place.

[finketr]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Too bad they didn't get into the guest rights bit. That was a big deal in the books.

Explaining the Rains of Castamere would have been a nice touch to clue in the non-readers. Though I can see that would have been tough to work in. Maybe Tywin could have explained it to someone to put them in their place.

The Rains of Castamere were covered in a previous episode.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by finketr

The Rains of Castamere were covered in a previous episode.

Yeah. The song has been played a few times in the show and Cersei went over the story behind it with Margery as a very unveiled threat.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Yeah. The song has been played a few times in the show and Cersei went over the story behind it with Margery as a very unveiled threat.

That was an excellent scene. It was the first time we saw Margaery not in control with her scheming, and we were reminded that Cersei is not all bluster and does have some bite. I loved that scene.

Sadly, I think the playing of the song at the wedding was a little too subtle and most non-readers probably didn't catch it.

[chadritt]

Probably true but the most important thing was that they/we realized that Catelyn figured out something was wrong. That combined with a lot of other clues made it so the viewer knew something was up even before the chain mail reveal, which was well done.

[jeff061]

I'm not sure how you could make it noticeable for non-readers without a tremendous amount of ham fisted foreshadowing throughout the series. Being told what song is playing in the book is easier to accomplish than getting a listener to recognize it by ear. I think it's really just a nod to readers and a cool bit of depth that can be picked up after watching(Breaking Bad is the king of this).

I don't have a problem with it.

[BrianD]

About the only thing they could have done with the song was have have Cat muse aloud that "The Rains of Castemere" is an odd choice, or something like that. I would guess they tried to shoot something like that and realized they just couldn't do it smoothly. There is not much of a line between too subtle and too obvious. Staying with too subtle gives the book fans something to smile about.

[Coffee Warlord]

http://vines.s3.amazonaws.com/videos...PmlrJZ1HvNGnBq

Arya rocks.

[BrianD]

It is funny that she is so good at playing Arya as a pretty tough and serious little girl, yet appears to be a normal, goofy 16 (I think) year old girl in real life.

[finketr]

I had to rewatch the episode on HBOGO as I seem to have a 20 minute blank spot when watching it live and with CC turned on in HBOGO, it actually noted "The Rains of Castamere" was being played by the musicians.

[chadritt]

Shameless promotion of a group of friends: Cosplay Piano does Game of Thrones.

Game of Thrones - Cosplay Piano - Ep 4 - YouTube

[Chief Rum]

Am I the only one who has been off and on humming/playing through my mind "The Rains of Castamere" since Sunday night?

[cschex]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Am I the only one who has been off and on humming/playing through my mind "The Rains of Castamere" since Sunday night?

Nope it's been stuck in my head since then. Honestly, I love the National anyway and think they did an awesome version of that song

[DaddyTorgo]

Interactive Game of Thrones Map with Spoilers Control

Interactive map with spoiler control.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Yeah. The song has been played a few times in the show and Cersei went over the story behind it with Margery as a very unveiled threat.

The Rains of Castamere

[Julio Riddols]

The show keeps ratcheting things up and I keep getting more and more absorbed in the universe.. I find myself wanting to live it so badly.

Well, I have been sitting here for about 4 hours while the kid visits granny and I haven't been able to stop playing this: Game of Thrones: Ascent.

I've just hired my second sworn sword and have him out trying to destroy some Skagosi ships who are messing with the realm. I've sworn my fealty to the Starks, and I believe Robert Baratheon has some interesting business in Winterfell. I've got an inside man keeping me abreast of things there. Could he be looking to replace his recently deceased hand Lord Arryn with Eddard Stark?

Edit: I could use some allies if anyone decides to join. ShaneD38 is my username.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

The show keeps ratcheting things up and I keep getting more and more absorbed in the universe.. I find myself wanting to live it so badly.

Well, I have been sitting here for about 4 hours while the kid visits granny and I haven't been able to stop playing this: Game of Thrones: Ascent.

I've just hired my second sworn sword and have him out trying to destroy some Skagosi ships who are messing with the realm. I've sworn my fealty to the Starks, and I believe Robert Baratheon has some interesting business in Winterfell. I've got an inside man keeping me abreast of things there. Could he be looking to replace his recently deceased hand Lord Arryn with Eddard Stark?

Edit: I could use some allies if anyone decides to join. ShaneD38 is my username.

Thanks for the link, just started playing. Shame the other GoT games have been woeful.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

The show keeps ratcheting things up and I keep getting more and more absorbed in the universe.. I find myself wanting to live it so badly.

Well, I have been sitting here for about 4 hours while the kid visits granny and I haven't been able to stop playing this: Game of Thrones: Ascent.

I've just hired my second sworn sword and have him out trying to destroy some Skagosi ships who are messing with the realm. I've sworn my fealty to the Starks, and I believe Robert Baratheon has some interesting business in Winterfell. I've got an inside man keeping me abreast of things there. Could he be looking to replace his recently deceased hand Lord Arryn with Eddard Stark?

Edit: I could use some allies if anyone decides to join. ShaneD38 is my username.

I've been playing this for a bit I suppose. It's just a traditional time wasting game, but since it follows roughly the story from Game of Thrones, I've found it interesting enough to spend a few minutes on a day in between conference calls or whatever. I'm level 66 or so now I think in it.

Only issue is I play it through Facebook, so not sure how exactly to add you by your kong username. Just reading their forums, it seems like you have to send a friend request directly to my user ID in the game.. so if you want to try to add me, see if this works:

Game of Thrones Ascent

If it doesn't, then I'm not sure how to add you unless you are a Facebook friend of mine (ie: I see Daddytorgo on my list like he looked at the game once but never really started playing it)

[Julio Riddols]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I've been playing this for a bit I suppose. It's just a traditional time wasting game, but since it follows roughly the story from Game of Thrones, I've found it interesting enough to spend a few minutes on a day in between conference calls or whatever. I'm level 66 or so now I think in it.

Only issue is I play it through Facebook, so not sure how exactly to add you by your kong username. Just reading their forums, it seems like you have to send a friend request directly to my user ID in the game.. so if you want to try to add me, see if this works:

Game of Thrones Ascent

If it doesn't, then I'm not sure how to add you unless you are a Facebook friend of mine (ie: I see Daddytorgo on my list like he looked at the game once but never really started playing it)

Yeah, seems like a good side pursuit to just kind of leave running in a tab and check in on occasionally. I tried using that friend request link and it said the link was sent, so hopefully it works.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

Yeah, seems like a good side pursuit to just kind of leave running in a tab and check in on occasionally. I tried using that friend request link and it said the link was sent, so hopefully it works.

Yeah, I got one that I assume was you

[DaddyTorgo]

Gah, so we got our "King in the North" moment.

[Jas_lov]

I didn't like the Dany scene at the end. Could have ended the season with a much bigger moment as we were discussing last week. The rest of the episode was good and a set up for next season. Stannis going to the Wall and Jaime back in KL should be interesting.