POTUS 2016 General Election Discussion Thread

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

I'm just saying that there isn't going to be any legal action.

Do please note that I agreed with you on that point.

I simply meant that the report you cited really doesn't have enough credibility to have an impact on that decision.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Well that's inspiring. She's not a criminal, just lazy and negligent. Perfect qualifications!

Ya, I did think she fucked up there, but I think a lot of older people in government are pretty clueless when it comes to stuff like that. And maybe the reason Sanders has been so hands-off on it despite it being a top issue with his supporters is that he has no clue whether his own email communications complied with whatever rules were in place in his positions.

[JPhillips]

And apparently the State Department system is such a mess that many of the top folks for years have had to work around it.

[nol]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_W...il_controversy

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by molson

You need to prove very specific things and specific intents to fit existing criminal statutes, especially for non-violent administration-related stuff like this.

To be fair, I probably railed against this with Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney and didn't listen to you & Imran at the time.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And apparently the State Department system is such a mess that many of the top folks for years have had to work around it.

Something I read indicated that for years, including Clinton's years, State's email server would randomly go down and be down for hours. Given the difficulty involved in fixing that situation (probably brought on by hopeless government bureaucracy) you can certainly see the impetus behind the private server.

[stevew]

Who is David French? He looks creepy AF.

[SirFozzie]

Wrote this for a blog for a politically leaning site (no, won't tell you which one, but you can probably guess)

Hillary vs Bernie.

Bernie vs Hillary.

Trump vs Hillary (or Bernie)

Trump vs The Real World. (not the old MTV show)

Fozzie vs Sanity this political season.



Yup. That last battle’s going to be exciting, all right.



159 days left till the election. That’s approximately 13,737,600 seconds. Where we will have a choice between the presumptive nominees of the political parties. And in this age of 24 hour news channels, hot takes, and instant pundit bloviating for hours on end, starting five seconds after the latest five second sound byte.. every second of it feels like hot pokers being shoved under the fingernails.

It’s the old political tactic, to throw so much noise out there that the signal gets lost, and people’s eyes glaze over and tune out.. but it’s so much more in this digital age.

Right about now, I’m envying Admiral E.J. King’s official press policy during World War II, when he was asked what to tell the American People.

“Don’t tell them anything until the war is over.. then tell them who won.”

I’m sure that’s what some folks in all parties wish for (let’s be honest, some of that is how some Hillary supporters wanted to deal with the Democratic primary system, so it’s not just a GOP thing).

It’s an instant access world these days. Coming from someone who started in the early days of the “Information Superhighway” where you actually had to reach out to connect to the world and share your opinion (I actually owned a 2400 baud modem :P)… but again, information overload. And here’s the thing. you can never get to the END of it.

In the old days, you spent a couple hours watching the news, reading the local newspaper, and maybe if you were a political junkie, you watched stuff like Meet the Press. But now, there’s 500 channels, and on 50 or more of them at any one time, you can see the Orange Goblin, one of his Democratic rivals, or something similar to it. I don’t think we’d ever miss the days where Crossfire wouldn’t make the air because it was so tame.. but here we are.

And that doesn’t even scratch the surface of the Internet, where you get your news with a particular slant to it. Liberal/Progressive sites have their favorite sites to get news from, just as much as Conservatives/far-right have their sites of choice. It’s like an atomic powered fire hose, spewing out information and “information” alike. We’re all getting swept away like dandelion seeds in a hurricane of noise.

And just think, only 228,960 minutes to go until one election ends.. and we begin the endless discussion about the next one. It’s overwhelming just thinking about it

Anyone got a rural house deep in the woods with no internet, TV or radio that I can hide away in?

I’m willing to share...

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Something I read indicated that for years, including Clinton's years, State's email server would randomly go down and be down for hours. Given the difficulty involved in fixing that situation (probably brought on by hopeless government bureaucracy) you can certainly see the impetus behind the private server.

I was always taught that security is more important than convenience. Security in places like that can be be overwhelmingly frustrating, I see that. But Government IT shops generally bend over backwards to ensure VIP users are able to communicate at all times. We, the taxpayers, throw a lot of money towards secure, reliable comms for our big-wigs.

If she was doing this and is getting away with it, who else is doing it? And who would want to know about that? Not you or I, but there are plenty of hackers in the world hunting for rogue servers now. It was wreckless and a sign of things to come. It's nice, I'm sure for our opponents to get a hold of traitors like Snowden, but if we allow our top people to do whatever they want, it makes things a lot easier for adversaries to exploit us.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

If she was doing this and is getting away with it, who else is doing it?

Rice and Powell for starters

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I was always taught that security is more important than convenience.

I agree with you, but from what I read, at the time the reason why the email server (and others) was down so much was due to crashes and other bugs. I don't think you can assume State (hopefully only at the time, but no longer) was practicing particularly good security practices for its IT infrastructure either.

The fact of the matter is that most government IT departments (save perhaps Defense) are chronically underfunded. There's no way they're able to keep up with state-of-the-art threat detection and prevention, especially given the other indications of systems failure we have (outages, bugs, failed backups, etc...).

Now, I'm certain that Clinton did the private email server out of convenience, not security. Absolutely. But we can't assume it was less secure than State's setup at the time. We'd hope it was, but I don't think that's an assumption we can make.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by stevew

Who is David French? He looks creepy AF.

Who Is David French and Is He Running for President? - NBC News

Seems creepy AF, too.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I agree with you, but from what I read, at the time the reason why the email server (and others) was down so much was due to crashes and other bugs. I don't think you can assume State (hopefully only at the time, but no longer) was practicing particularly good security practices for its IT infrastructure either.

The fact of the matter is that most government IT departments (save perhaps Defense) are chronically underfunded. There's no way they're able to keep up with state-of-the-art threat detection and prevention, especially given the other indications of systems failure we have (outages, bugs, failed backups, etc...).

Now, I'm certain that Clinton did the private email server out of convenience, not security. Absolutely. But we can't assume it was less secure than State's setup at the time. We'd hope it was, but I don't think that's an assumption we can make.

Actually, you can make that assumption. Their are approved encryption devices available to VIP's. There are laws and rules on how to set it up, how it must be configured, and where it can be used. There are even e-mail classification tools that government folks must use that force you to classify your e-mails. If it's done using the established government protocols, you simply can't get in hot water for it. She was avoiding her own beauracracy...so it seems.

[Shkspr]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Who Is David French and Is He Running for President? - NBC News

Seems creepy AF, too.

Read that article and a Google search later I have to say:

Stand down, dude. Nobody's going to be banging your wife, no matter how hot her love for Christ makes them.

[NobodyHere]

Why can't the Never Trump movement just takeover the Libertarian party?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

To be fair, I probably railed against this with Scooter Libby and Dick Cheney and didn't listen to you & Imran at the time.

That's ok; no one listens to me anyways .

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

It's utterly pointless. These days, with many on the left, everything is identity politics. If you dare even hint that you don't agree, then the response is to assume it's because you're racist. In this case, she isn't even Muslim. But that's the immediate response.

I didn't respond in full because I knew that no matter what I wrote, that would be the assumption anyway. It just isn't worth it. People have gone so far into identity politics that there's absolutely nothing they would listen to anyway.

You can look up her family on your own. I did when she became a big name and I don't think they deserve respect. You can make your own conclusions. Debate is just too difficult amongst all the race-baiting.

This is ridiculous bullshit. Just answer the fucking question!

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Shkspr

Read that article and a Google search later I have to say:

Stand down, dude. Nobody's going to be banging your wife, no matter how hot her love for Christ makes them.

She looks like Jennifer Garner, except more like a man.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

That's ok; no one listens to me anyways .

I'm just getting my mea culpas in now before I go completely unhinged in September/October.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Actually, you can make that assumption. Their are approved encryption devices available to VIP's. There are laws and rules on how to set it up, how it must be configured, and where it can be used. There are even e-mail classification tools that government folks must use that force you to classify your e-mails. If it's done using the established government protocols, you simply can't get in hot water for it. She was avoiding her own beauracracy...so it seems.

Was this all available and working in 2008 and did it extend to non-VIPs? On the latter, I ask because I would suggest that it wasn't just about Clinton's email, but her ability to work with her staff without email outages that was part (if not a lot) of the impetus.

[Thomkal]

Trump not having a good week business wise. Not only did the judge in the lawsuit against Trump U (a hispanic judge nonetheless) reveal a lot of damning documents in the lawsuit, the PGA Tour after 50+ years at Doral was forced to move the tournament after trying for over a year to find a title sponsor at the Trump owned course. Best part was where they are moving the tournament to...Mexico City. Not surprisingly Trump had racist comments both about the judge and the PGA Tour's decision:

PGA Tour moves tournament from Miami Donald Trump course ... to Mexico - The Washington Post

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

I'm just getting my mea culpas in now before I go completely unhinged in September/October.

Brilliant plan! Also, you can while (we will ALL be) unhinged, you can say "I have apologized in the past". It's a solid move .

[PilotMan]

Really good article for discussion.

Donald Trump and the Backlash Against Political Correctness - The Atlantic

A Dialogue With a 22-Year-Old Donald Trump Supporter

He lives near San Francisco, makes more than $50,000 per year, and is voting for the billionaire to fight against political correctness.

[flere-imsaho]

He says this:

For me personally, it's resistance against what San Francisco has been, and what I see the country becoming, in the form of ultra-PC culture. That’s where it's almost impossible to have polite or constructive political discussion. Disagreement gets you labeled fascist, racist, bigoted, etc. It can provoke a reaction so intense that you’re suddenly an unperson to an acquaintance or friend. There is no saying “Hey, I disagree with you,” it's just instant shunning. Say things online, and they'll try to find out who you are and potentially even get you fired for it. Being anti-PC is not about saying “I want you to agree with me on these issues.” It's about saying, “Hey, I want to have a discussion and not get shouted down because I don't agree with what is considered to be politically correct.”

Yet supports a guy who says this:

“Ariana Huffington is unattractive, both inside and out. I fully understand why her former husband left her for a man – he made a good decision.”

“You know, it really doesn’t matter what the media write as long as you’ve got a young, and beautiful, piece of ass.”

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”

“If I were running ‘The View’, I’d fire Rosie O’Donnell. I mean, I’d look at her right in that fat, ugly face of hers, I’d say ‘Rosie, you’re fired.’”

Plus mocking a disabled reporter, encouraging supporters to attack a protester, etc....

[molson]

I can relate to some of what he said, and similar stuff that's been posted here, about how hostile people in some communities can be towards anyone who has non-conforming views. I saw that in law school, and to a lesser extent, in my own peer groups when it comes to religious or spiritual beliefs. But I don't understand how Trump is the answer to that problem.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Kansas is a clear example of why a candidate like Trump has won the Republican nomination. They've implemented an extreme level of all of the things that ultra-conservatives stand for. In the process, they've taken a state that had been on solid financial footing and dumped the state on its head. It's been great for the Missouri side of Kansas City as businesses and residents move across the state line, but it has devastated Kansas. Moderate Republicans see scenarios like this and can't support it.

Full Kansas meltdown: revenue woes, no school funding plan, transgender bigotry | The Kansas City Star

[AENeuman]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Really good article for discussion.

Donald Trump and the Backlash Against Political Correctness - The Atlantic

I wish people had to type with particular fonts to reflect their maturity/experience. It would help with this seemingly democratic notion that all voices, options should be treated with the same consideration.

As far as this 22 year old, I would say he has definitely moved on from comic sans, but he is in a Trajan Pro phase (interesting, book smart, but exclusive use large and small capital letters means it is too self important).

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Kansas is a clear example of why a candidate like Trump has won the Republican nomination. They've implemented an extreme level of all of the things that ultra-conservatives stand for. In the process, they've taken a state that had been on solid financial footing and dumped the state on its head. It's been great for the Missouri side of Kansas City as businesses and residents move across the state line, but it has devastated Kansas. Moderate Republicans see scenarios like this and can't support it.

Full Kansas meltdown: revenue woes, no school funding plan, transgender bigotry | The Kansas City Star

Moderates should look harder.

Trump's tax plan will do to the nation what Brownback's did to the state.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Moderates should look harder.

Trump's tax plan will do to the nation what Brownback's did to the state.

Nah, surely the lesson there is that they haven't cut taxes enough. Kansas is probably just one or two more tax cuts away from prosperity.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by mckerney

Nah, surely the lesson there is that they haven't cut taxes enough. Kansas is probably just one or two more tax cuts away from prosperity.

Don't forget the spending cuts to education and infrastructure.

They should cut the school year to just 3 months, it would give kids more time to work.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Moderates should look harder.

Trump's tax plan will do to the nation what Brownback's did to the state.

Yeah, Trump's plan is not moderate at all. It's much bigger than the Bush tax cuts. I believe the biggest tax cut in the nation's history if it went through.

How many times does the giant tax cut have to backfire before idiots figure out that it won't make the economy better?

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Yeah, Trump's plan is not moderate at all. It's much bigger than the Bush tax cuts. I believe the biggest tax cut in the nation's history if it went through.

How many times does the giant tax cut have to backfire before idiots figure out that it won't make the economy better?

Until the 1% have all the money chips.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How many times does the giant tax cut have to backfire before idiots figure out that it won't make the economy better?

Sure makes it more equitable & justifiable however.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sure makes it more equitable & justifiable however.

I'm fine with that reasoning. Just saying let's be honest about it. If we cut taxes we need to cut spending a lot. I don't know where but it has to be somewhere. We have to stop pretending we'll cut taxes and magically a bunch of money will grow on trees.

[miked]

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Was this all available and working in 2008 and did it extend to non-VIPs? On the latter, I ask because I would suggest that it wasn't just about Clinton's email, but her ability to work with her staff without email outages that was part (if not a lot) of the impetus.

Encryption devices have been around forever (before 2008, before Clinton, before Powell, before Rice). It's not at the e-mail layer (layer 7) but at the link layer (Layer 2), if I remember my OSI 7-layer model correctly. Encryption devices sit in front of your routers and everything passing through is encrypted. It's available to anybody that needs to work remotely (not in the place of business).

[flere-imsaho]

Sorry, I wasn't asking if it was available generally (I used to work in that space 15 years ago), I was asking if State's IT department had it enough together to support everyone who needed that kind of access and do it without considerable downtime. On the latter point, and I suppose I can go look it up, but I had read that State's IT department has always had a challenge with uptime for email.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Sorry, I wasn't asking if it was available generally (I used to work in that space 15 years ago), I was asking if State's IT department had it enough together to support everyone who needed that kind of access and do it without considerable downtime. On the latter point, and I suppose I can go look it up, but I had read that State's IT department has always had a challenge with uptime for email.

If they have an approved government network that handles classified data, they have this capability (if they have remote workers). Period. It's not site specific, it's mandatory. As for the State IT department, if they have poor uptime, who was she employing to get her "better uptime"? Non State IT department folks? Best Buy Geek Squad?

[flere-imsaho]

As I understand it, a private contractor.

[Thomkal]

Stephen Hawking finally speaks in terms Trump supporters can understand:

Stephen Hawking Angers Trump Supporters with Baffling Array of Long Words - The New Yorker

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Stephen Hawking finally speaks in terms Trump supporters can understand:

Stephen Hawking Angers Trump Supporters with Baffling Array of Long Words - The New Yorker

Thomkal, how would you describe DNC voters and GOP voters?

Smart vs Racist? Does that basically sum it up for you?

[QuikSand]

It does seem like this year could be perfect for a modern (Libertarian?) version of the 2000 "Nader Trader" concept. There, green party loyalists or Nader supporters in swing states would effectively sign a pact with a sympathetic voter in a non-swing state...agreeing that in the "relevant" state their one vote would go for the viable candidate (Gore) and in the out-of-reach state the left-leaning could comfortably vote Green/Nader without fear of accidentally helping to elect.

Specifics of that aside... technology and communications and social media has advanced so far in that time, it seems awfully realistic that you could have thousands of votes organized this way, for this election. And here, it seems very realistic that there could be party faithful from both sides who might be willing to swap votes in safe red/blue states in exchange for one in a purple state.

I'm not sure how I personally feel about that, to be honest, but the nuts and bolts do seem to be technologically viable, and the stage seems set politically.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Thomkal, how would you describe DNC voters and GOP voters?

Smart vs Racist? Does that basically sum it up for you?

I think that may sum up some non-drumpf versus most drumpf supporters.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Thomkal, how would you describe DNC voters and GOP voters?

Smart vs Racist? Does that basically sum it up for you?

well I don't know about smart on either side honestly Better educated on the DNC side maybe?

[digamma]

I mean didn't Trump say himself that he LOVES THE POORLY EDUCATED!!!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by digamma

I mean didn't Trump say himself that he LOVES THE POORLY EDUCATED!!!

What does Hillary say?

[RainMaker]

I do like how the media has suddenly started to ignore Bernie supporters violently attacking people at Trump rallies. Like if it was the other way around it would be around the clock coverage.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Dutch

What does Hillary say?

Whatever her advisors tell her?

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Dutch

What does Hillary say?

Originally Posted by digamma

Whatever her advisors tell her?

She went to West Virginia, told them the coal jobs weren't coming back but that she wanted to implement re-training programs and beef up the safety net and they went out and voters for Sanders instead.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by digamma

Whatever her advisors tell her?

It's probably not that she hates poor people. So she loves poor people too? That's the point, I was making. If we want to keep this Boolean, those are the only two choices. It's pointless though if we insist on characterizing one side in terms of black and white and the other much more fairly.