Most Disappointing Game of the Decade - Page 3

Samdari · 01-05-2010, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Uh, not really. Not at all. If you played that way, you'd lose every time as the Royal Expeditionary Force would be so massive that it would be impossible to defeat. We're not talking about exploits here. We're talking about the main real strategy to win was to:

Colonization is probably one of the two or three games I have played the most in my life. What you describe the mod as doing:

"Colonization play very much like I thought it should play. Settle cities, negotiate with the natives, build your economy through resource refinement (my specialty: cigars!) and then work on breaking free"

Is how I played the original game. You're right, it was very difficult - but not impossible. I did not win every time, but surviving the onslaught when it did happen was very satisfying.

Blackadar · 01-05-2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samdari

Colonization is probably one of the two or three games I have played the most in my life. What you describe the mod as doing:

"Colonization play very much like I thought it should play. Settle cities, negotiate with the natives, build your economy through resource refinement (my specialty: cigars!) and then work on breaking free"

Is how I played the original game. You're right, it was very difficult - but not impossible. I did not win every time, but surviving the onslaught when it did happen was very satisfying.

Fair enough. Perhaps what I should have said is that the mod actually allows you to do it effectively. If you like Col, then you should love Age of Discovery II. If, like myself, you thought Col was a heaping pile of fresh donkey shit on release, then you may find you like Age of Discovery II.

I'm glad you enjoyed it. But nothing you can say will ever make me think that Col wasn't dead fuck broken out of the box. I was even writing a strat guide/FAQ when I realized how shitty it was and put it aside. Really, Col is a building game where the best way to win is not to build. That's just sad. I truly think the AoDII makes Col not just playable, but strategic and enjoyable. In my eyes, AoDII redeems Col.

SportsDino · 01-05-2010, 02:47 PM

I lean towards Blackadar on Colonization, granted most of the time I didn't care about winning and I was not above using the cheating interface to get over the hurdles... but the game was not adequately play-tested in my opinion.

As for Sim City 4, it is very deep and interesting, but the transportation routing needs some smarter programming and it could be much improved. I know its hard for programmers to break out of the 'simplest answer' way of building their games, but really, think about the transportation network in the abstract and design it so it really can module full region transportation. Use something a little better than direct line pathfinding which is TERRIBLE because it forces players to game city design to fix a game flaw at the very least.

If I was building Sim City 4, you use some sort of greedy algorithm to match up local situations and then you hurl all non-matches out to a region level matcher and forget about it. I think to a point it sort of does this, but its too simple minded just like the direct path idea. With a little tinkering I'm sure you could make a system that does decent multiple region commutes and scales beautifully. If the user breaks a connection in between somehow, resolve it when they restart the affected city (like it seems to do now except it can only cross one region).

However, even with its limitations I got a good amount of enjoyment out of it (unless there is a patch out there that specifically fixes transportation routing? I'm terrible about downloading updates/patches sometimes).

Blackadar · 01-05-2010, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SportsDino

I lean towards Blackadar on Colonization, granted most of the time I didn't care about winning and I was not above using the cheating interface to get over the hurdles... but the game was not adequately play-tested in my opinion.

As for Sim City 4, it is very deep and interesting, but the transportation routing needs some smarter programming and it could be much improved. I know its hard for programmers to break out of the 'simplest answer' way of building their games, but really, think about the transportation network in the abstract and design it so it really can module full region transportation. Use something a little better than direct line pathfinding which is TERRIBLE because it forces players to game city design to fix a game flaw at the very least.

If I was building Sim City 4, you use some sort of greedy algorithm to match up local situations and then you hurl all non-matches out to a region level matcher and forget about it. I think to a point it sort of does this, but its too simple minded just like the direct path idea. With a little tinkering I'm sure you could make a system that does decent multiple region commutes and scales beautifully. If the user breaks a connection in between somehow, resolve it when they restart the affected city (like it seems to do now except it can only cross one region).

However, even with its limitations I got a good amount of enjoyment out of it (unless there is a patch out there that specifically fixes transportation routing? I'm terrible about downloading updates/patches sometimes).

Dino, I'm not sure what you mean by direct line transportation routing. The game models direct residential movement on an individual level, figures out the most optimal path to get there and then takes that path. That's not any different than what a normal person does.

Take for example an individual who works in a C$$ job. He finds the nearest job of that type. He then tries to get there by the fastest means possible - car, bus, subway or a combination of the above. Roads, avenues, highways, buses, subways and so forth all have a different speed to travel from his house to that job and there are penalties for changing transportation methods (think of it as someone waiting for the train to arrive). There are also modification for traffic on that route. Once that route is established, the person continues to take that route until it takes too long. Once it takes too long (traffic jam, destroyed road), they will try to establish a new route. If they can't, well...that's when bad things happen.

However, it cannot adequately model a regional model and does not really attempt to do so. Essentially, once your to the edge of the map, that's the end of your journey. That is a limitation, but I always thought the transportation model in SimCity 4 was pretty complex. It's not very different than what most of us do on a daily basis.

I think with today's technology, it'd probably be possible to model that across regions. But then again, there's always the problem that time does not advance uniformly in a regional model (or if it does, there are a host of other problems that crop up).

EDIT: I'm not trying to convince you it's a great game. Obviously, I think it is, but that's just my opinion. I'm just trying to figure out what you mean.

ColtCrazy · 01-05-2010, 03:23 PM

I am also excited to hear about the Colonization mod. I enjoyed the game at first, but quickly lost interest because of the points you made. Where can you get the mod at? I'll definitely have to check it out when I'm over my current EU3 addiction.

Blackadar · 01-05-2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ColtCrazy

I am also excited to hear about the Colonization mod. I enjoyed the game at first, but quickly lost interest because of the points you made. Where can you get the mod at? I'll definitely have to check it out when I'm over my current EU3 addiction.

Ask and ye shall receive.

[MOD] Age of Discovery II - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

ColtCrazy · 01-05-2010, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Ask and ye shall receive.

[MOD] Age of Discovery II - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Thank you very much!

SportsDino · 01-05-2010, 03:54 PM

Blackadar, at least the vanilla version of the game the direct routing does not take into account public transportation, or even the best roadpath to take. You can see it using the route viewer, it keeps taking a bee-line for whatever it is looking for even if that means congesting a lowly side-street when a perfectly awesome highway is nearby.

I might be oversimplifying it a bit, but basically, if you have a bus stop one step in the wrong direction next to your house, say right, but your job is in the general left direction, your little simizen will drive to the left when he could go one step right and take the bus (assume the other bus stop is right next door to his factory).

This problem makes for very unintuitive public transportation design and much more frequent appearance of the 'I can't find a job' symbol when you are trying to design a city which doesn't match those very narrow criteria.

I'm saying it is possible to make an efficient algorithm that allows the little sims to progressively get to farther jobs using all of the transportation network in a common sense way. The 'direct path' bias just makes the game unnecessarilly complex and less fun... in my opinion.

I do love the game, and it really is a complex and beautiful little beast, but I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall when I got traffic problems that would be so easy to fix if I could convince the simmies to go one step back to go twenty steps forward!

I do think it is possible to model regional traffic, even if the timelines of all the little cities themselves are not synchronized. Just model each connection as a point with X supply and demand, if the connected city can satisfy it, suck as much of it down the pipe as it can take, if there is any remainder forward it on towards any other connection. What it looks like to the end user:

I got five cities in a row, one big residential at square A, and four tiny industrial towns B-E, the connections are all one way and sequential. My traffic pattern you would see all of B,C,D fill up, and then E is starting to get far or the supply of people is running out, so you see barren factories. You either build residential in that town, build a better transport that lets spare people in A travel farther/faster (say a highway instead of a road), or so on and so forth.

I think Sim City 4 TRIES to do this already, I've done some multi-city experiments and see a road full of traffic pass from one connection to the next, but again I think its based on that simplified algorithm and it breaks quite a bit. You cna see the traffic jump from 1000 to 100 back to 1000 again at times.

I think the method they are using is computationally ugly (limiting city size potentially), doesn't reflect traffic patterns in reality or that a simpler user is expecting (I put a bus stop in the middle of the neighborhood, why is only half the neighborhood using it, WTF!!!), and slows down the pace of the game a touch more which makes the learning curve and initial impression bog down.

Doesn't stop me from liking the game, I just get very nitpicky about programming flaws that do damage to the experience (I could do this with just about any game).

EDIT:
The technology is not a problem, its a question of algorithm design. I think they can make something that actually runs more efficiently and does a better job... but I may be biased, I am very good at designing algorithms for speed/power/flexibility so I might be overestimating their abilities/time.

lcjjdnh · 01-05-2010, 04:49 PM

Blackadar, great stuff on SimCity4. I didn't really get into it when I first got it, but now I think I will try again. You mentioned a number of mods and patches--What would you say are the "must-haves" before I start gaming?

Buccaneer · 01-05-2010, 06:34 PM

It's good to be able to read discussions on PC strategy games again (thanks Blacky). Regarding SimCity4, my experience was out of the box without mods, which I think is one way to evaluate games. I believe my disappointment was in trying to make suburbs work, esp. with the Bay Area map. No way to get the citizens to commute across the bay or even to Treasure Is. In two previous versions (original and 2000), I knew about and was successful in building up cities, I just wanted a different experience with 4.

This is similar to a movies discussion in qualifying what is a "disappointment". There were certainly many, many bad PC games last decade but they don't count. It were the games that, for me, had some degree of high expectations that didn't come close to meeting it.

Regarding Civ4:Col, I've played it twice in the past year and while I full well know how easy it was to play as Blacky detailed (and made several comments to that effect at Poly), I did have some enjoyment out of it. I have not done AoD2 yet.

I fully stand by my comments about Morrowind and more so, Oblivion. I think it comes down to what games expect out of games like that and I was appalled at how ugly (Morrowind) or repititive (Oblivion), empty and boring the world were (esp. between the towns).

lcjjdnh · 01-05-2010, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Izulde

I'll also echo Hollywood Mogul 3. What was fun and engrossing in the previous versions of the game was just flat and dull in HM3, despite efforts to expand it and make it better.

Are the previous versions available anywhere?

Glengoyne · 01-05-2010, 07:09 PM

MOO 3 has to rate near the top. It was so anticipated, and SO much of a disappointment. I spent so much time trying to make it work that I actually enjoyed the minimal successes that I had. So much so that I can't bring myself to say it sucked as I did enjoy some of its facets. All in all though it was So disappointing in execution. Even trivial investment by the developers in some of the interfaces would have made it more palatable. It was like they only played the game on paper. Someone involved should write a how not to book on project management or product development.

On another note, I do absolutely concur that this trophy should be named the Peter Molyneux trophy.

Izulde · 01-05-2010, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lcjjdnh

Are the previous versions available anywhere?

To be honest, I'm not sure. I'd love to play HM 2 again. The gameplay is admittedly very simplistic and very repetitive after a while, but it was also fun and addicting in spite of those flaws.

Honolulu Blue · 01-06-2010, 08:37 AM

I'm not sure Samdari and Blackadar are talking about the same game. Blackadar is talking about the Civ: Colonization - both modded and unmodified - that was originally released in '08. I think Samdari is talking about the original Colonization, from '94.

I got a few hours of enjoyment from Civ: Col, but it was the very definition of disappointing for me. Perhaps the mod will save it. But that's a fight for another day.

Blackadar · 01-06-2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lcjjdnh

Blackadar, great stuff on SimCity4. I didn't really get into it when I first got it, but now I think I will try again. You mentioned a number of mods and patches--What would you say are the "must-haves" before I start gaming?

You want the NAM (Network Addon Mod, which is not found at Simtropolis). You may also want some of the terrain texture mods, where you can change the base look of the terrain. You can find most of this on the STEX, which is the exchange on Simtropolis (registration required to download, but that's simple). I just started searching for the highest rated/most downloaded ones and went from there.

But rather than detail it all out, I'd suggest you start here:

Simtropolis - Useful Information For Newcomers To Simtropolis!

Simtropolis - Boggy1's Quick Guide to All Things Custom Content!

For some buildings, you'll need to download "dependencies", which are texture and object packs that the building uses. This can be quite confusing, because a texture will get created, listed as a dependency, then folded into a larger texture pack later on and so forth. It can be really confusing at first, but you'll get the hang of it.

Also, Simtropolis offers CDs for a relatively small donation ($20 or $20) that contains a huge number of buildings, lots, maps, texture packs and so forth. I've been tempted, but I've never ordered one.

SportsDino, that's not how it works in my game. I don't know if the Rush Hour pack changed that or not. When I originally got the game, it ran so poorly on my older machine I shelved it. Years later, when I got a new machine, I got the expansion and really started playing it, so I have little experience with the original core game.

SportsDino · 01-06-2010, 10:14 AM

Maybe they fixed something in a patch, not worth going back and figuring out really but it put a real hamper on my fun. The gamefaqs on it go into detail on the problem I see, so I'm not the only one who noticed it.

Blackadar · 01-06-2010, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SportsDino

Maybe they fixed something in a patch, not worth going back and figuring out really but it put a real hamper on my fun. The gamefaqs on it go into detail on the problem I see, so I'm not the only one who noticed it.

Ah. I understand. I think Rush Hour fixed a little of that, but it was really the NAM add-on that made the path-finding much smarter. I was playing with the NAM not long after I really got into the game, simply so I didn't have to deal with the issues of the original game. Needless to say, on my version they're smart little bastards who use mass transit and the quickest route quite often.

SportsDino · 01-06-2010, 10:48 AM

I'll have to grab NAM and try it out. I need to try out more mods, but I rarely feel like doing the legwork to monitor what is out there.

lcjjdnh · 01-06-2010, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

You want the NAM (Network Addon Mod, which is not found at Simtropolis). You may also want some of the terrain texture mods, where you can change the base look of the terrain. You can find most of this on the STEX, which is the exchange on Simtropolis (registration required to download, but that's simple). I just started searching for the highest rated/most downloaded ones and went from there.

But rather than detail it all out, I'd suggest you start here:

Simtropolis - Useful Information For Newcomers To Simtropolis!

Simtropolis - Boggy1's Quick Guide to All Things Custom Content!

For some buildings, you'll need to download "dependencies", which are texture and object packs that the building uses. This can be quite confusing, because a texture will get created, listed as a dependency, then folded into a larger texture pack later on and so forth. It can be really confusing at first, but you'll get the hang of it.

Also, Simtropolis offers CDs for a relatively small donation ($20 or $20) that contains a huge number of buildings, lots, maps, texture packs and so forth. I've been tempted, but I've never ordered one.

SportsDino, that's not how it works in my game. I don't know if the Rush Hour pack changed that or not. When I originally got the game, it ran so poorly on my older machine I shelved it. Years later, when I got a new machine, I got the expansion and really started playing it, so I have little experience with the original core game.

Thanks. I appreciate it.

gstelmack · 01-06-2010, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Ah. I understand. I think Rush Hour fixed a little of that, but it was really the NAM add-on that made the path-finding much smarter. I was playing with the NAM not long after I really got into the game, simply so I didn't have to deal with the issues of the original game. Needless to say, on my version they're smart little bastards who use mass transit and the quickest route quite often.

Funny, this is how I feel about Oblivion

Alan T · 01-06-2010, 11:24 AM

I rename this thread the "Blackadar gets everyone back into Sim City 4 thread"

Blackadar · 01-06-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T

I rename this thread the "Blackadar gets everyone back into Sim City 4 thread"

And KOTOR 2 too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Funny, this is how I feel about Oblivion

I tried to apply the user mods to Oblivion to fix the experience because I really, really wanted to like that game. Someone came out with a huge pack of mods that updated the graphics, fixed the scaling and so forth. But it was a PITA to apply. It was like "apply A before B, except if you have C, then apply E. Then apply B before D, unless you want F, in which case apply H and uninstall A." I spent like two and a half hours getting it right.

Then I logged on to the game to find it stuttered like hell on my 8800GT rig. So I start looking at how to tune things down and it was "uninstall C, D and G, tweak A, redo Z and then reinstall C. Then apply E, but tweak H because D isn't there anymore."

I gave up and played The Witcher instead.

SportsDino · 01-06-2010, 12:06 PM

I love Morrowind and Oblivion (ya I'm a game junkie), but Oblivion pretty much requires a couple user made mods to make it livable. They should be available in a pretty nice installer by now and not too hard to figure out. If you turn off the creature/item mods (which is a simple checkbox in the mod I use) it is very stable.

I can very easily see why people wouldn't like those games, they tend to get bland gameplay wise (the design encourages it). However, I love wide open exploration and traveling so Oblivion/Morrowind/Fallout fascinate the hell out of me. I just wish they combined that with either a nice combat system like Dragon Age or plot/mission design a little deeper than fetch quest and hack and slash.

DaddyTorgo · 01-06-2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SportsDino

I love Morrowind and Oblivion (ya I'm a game junkie), but Oblivion pretty much requires a couple user made mods to make it livable. They should be available in a pretty nice installer by now and not too hard to figure out. If you turn off the creature/item mods (which is a simple checkbox in the mod I use) it is very stable.

I can very easily see why people wouldn't like those games, they tend to get bland gameplay wise (the design encourages it). However, I love wide open exploration and traveling so Oblivion/Morrowind/Fallout fascinate the hell out of me. I just wish they combined that with either a nice combat system like Dragon Age or plot/mission design a little deeper than fetch quest and hack and slash.

please define which mods make Oblivion livable? with linkificating goodness if possible? there's so damn many of them.

SportsDino · 01-06-2010, 12:46 PM

Ya sorting through mods is the hard part (and why i barely do it).

At a min I'd suggest:

Francesco's leveled creatures/items
Francesco

My preferred complete game redo mod, comes with a pretty easy to use installer and you can turn on/off things you don't like. If you want the vanilla game but better, just turn on everything except the new creatures/items and it should run like a charm (I have been annoyed by the new creatures/items though).

That mod by itself makes the biggest difference. I also like:
Tamriel Viewable When Distant
Tamriel Viewable When Distant - Oblivion Mod Wiki

If you got the spare graphics speed, this mod makes the world seem a lot more real, you see cities from far away, even if its not perfect it makes it more immersive to me.

SaddleBags
Saddle Bags - Planet Elder Scrolls

Given no companions, and the massive amounts of loot, this mod is near essential. I'm a big roleplayer and I don't fast travel, so basically I load up my horse with supplies and trek between cities and dungeons selling off the loot from a few stops along the way.

Someone's top ten list
Ten essential Oblivion mods - Planet Elder Scrolls

I haven't used BT mod recently, but I think it works... on my last install I forgot this link and only picked off my top three faves. I have used BT Mod in the past and it helps. Elven maps looks cool, so I'll probably try that (I haven't played Oblivion in a while, but I might be feeling the urge after being railroaded in Dragon Age a little too much despite loving the gameplay).

Scenery mods and new creatures are usually cool, BUT sometimes I disagree with some of the artistic choices (particularly difficult creatures in the overworld which sometimes can screw things up since they will chase you halfway around the world and kill off roaming villagers!). I personally like the biggest baddies in the dungeons and let me come to them, but increased wildlife out and about is probably what I will do for next playthrough. I just tend to notch down the very difficult monsters if I can.

Big Fo · 01-06-2010, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

And KOTOR 2 too!

Colonization as well. I quite playing that shortly after release but will give that mod you mentioned a shot at some point in the future.

Blackadar · 01-06-2010, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Colonization as well. I quite playing that shortly after release but will give that mod you mentioned a shot at some point in the future.

Blackadar: Extending your gaming dollars.

DaddyTorgo · 01-06-2010, 01:59 PM

thanks SportsDino - i'll definately give those an install

DaddyTorgo · 01-06-2010, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Blackadar: Extending your gaming dollars.

srsly!

gstelmack · 01-06-2010, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

I tried to apply the user mods to Oblivion to fix the experience because I really, really wanted to like that game. Someone came out with a huge pack of mods that updated the graphics, fixed the scaling and so forth. But it was a PITA to apply. It was like "apply A before B, except if you have C, then apply E. Then apply B before D, unless you want F, in which case apply H and uninstall A." I spent like two and a half hours getting it right.

Franco's mod was a one-click install for the leveling issue plus some other bits, then there was a separate mod to fix the UI issues (like more items on the lists). Those were the only two I ever used, and it was just install both and go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Then I logged on to the game to find it stuttered like hell on my 8800GT rig. So I start looking at how to tune things down and it was "uninstall C, D and G, tweak A, redo Z and then reinstall C. Then apply E, but tweak H because D isn't there anymore."

Yeah, the stuttering was an issue...

Calis · 01-06-2010, 02:46 PM

Yeah the mods for Oblivion are the only thing that kept it off my most disappointing list. They were able to address a lot of the issues, but user mods can only do so much. They fixed a lot of mechanics issues(mob scaling, finding bandits decked out in full Daedric armor, etc....), but the bigger problems are the world design and characters in general. It is all completely forgettable. I will say a few of the Dark Brotherhood quests were far and above anything else in the game and actually pretty interesting. I think that is what is most disappointing about Bethesda, the fact they get so close, but seem to keep failing in the same areas.

Anyway, I've also discussed that too much in the past so I won't harp too much. There are some really impressive mods out there and I can't imagine playing without them.

I never played SimCity 4 but all this talk has me intrigued.

GrantDawg · 01-09-2010, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan T

I rename this thread the "Blackadar gets everyone back into Sim City 4 thread"

Yup. You know, I didn't even remember owning this. But I just found it (Deluxe with Rush Hour), so I loaded it up and looking at the mods. Thanks Blackie!

RendeR · 01-09-2010, 08:19 PM

Most disappointing game of the decade:

Jets 24 Bengals 14.

Buccaneer · 12-05-2010, 12:19 PM

Bump for JonInMGA. This was not even a year ago.

Tbh, I was looking for Blacky's recommendations on SimCity4 mods.

Buccaneer · 12-05-2010, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Ask and ye shall receive.

[MOD] Age of Discovery II - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

I just want to add, after re-reading this thread, that Civ4Col with AoD2 was my best new gameplaying experience in 2010.

Matthean · 12-05-2010, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthean

City of Heroes in one publication won MMO of the year while WoW won Game of the Year because CoH did the MMO aspect better, sidekicking FTW. It's one of the few MMOs that isn't a WoW clone and has been around long enough to be considered far from a failure. Oh, and another expansion pack is on the way to extent it's life even further. Guild Wars should also be exempt from the disappointing list because it was one of the best examples of succeeding with a free-to-play model.

Heh. Rereading this I was hoping somebody countered the MMO remark and started to read this post and agreeing with it only to see I wrote it in the first place.

Now, F2P from the start MMOs would vastly qualify for me here. I have yet to really get into one. Once the cost of the MMO isn't F2P, the quality somehow seems to go up by default.

Torchlight would of, could of, should have been better. It's not a bad cheap hack-n-slash game, but it really shows it was developed in 11 months to earn money to fund a different game.

Any FPRPG(First Person RPG) that gets me excited by it's mass hype, but then I think I'm allergic to the FP perspective.

SunDevil · 12-05-2010, 02:57 PM

Abe Sargent · 12-05-2010, 04:19 PM

Anyone say Republic, ,the Revolution?

spleen1015 · 12-05-2010, 04:23 PM

Still MOO3 for me.

http://moo3.quicksilver.com/main2.html

The website is still there. I can't remember how many hours I spent looking at that.

Man, the Ithkul had so much potential. Too bad the game sucked so bad.

Izulde · 12-05-2010, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Anyone say Republic, ,the Revolution?

Good call.

Abe Sargent · 12-05-2010, 04:41 PM

Heh, I didn;t realize this was old, went and reread it and saw I mentioned Republic earlier. Funny.

Passacaglia · 12-05-2010, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

I just want to add, after re-reading this thread, that Civ4Col with AoD2 was my best new gameplaying experience in 2010.

I haven't seen this before, will definitely have to check it out!

Atocep · 12-05-2010, 05:23 PM

Would be Oblivion for me. Modded Morrowind was one of the most fun experiences I've had in a game and Oblivion felt like a major step backwards from how I had Morrowind.

The Assassins Guild and Vampire questlines were really good, but combat is still stuck in the 90s left click, left click, left click mentality. The main story is the typical Bethesda approach where they give you a really short main questline that they give the appearance of being much larger by throwing you in a huge world and spreading the steps out.

The mod community was also really slow to switch over and was nowhere near what it had been for Morrowind by the time I had given up.

I don't think Oblivion was a bad game at all, but it was still the most disappointing for me.

Abe Sargent · 12-05-2010, 05:28 PM

Oblivion was very by the numbers boring, not great, not bad, just so so. Morrowind was interesting, different, and really fun, and with some flaws that were not corrected in Oblivion.

Drake · 12-05-2010, 07:13 PM

I adored Oblivion (and Morrowind as well)...but I just realized that I've never played vanilla Oblivion. I had Francesco's mod and Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul from the start.

OOO completely remakes Oblivion into a can't miss for me...but that also means I can't tell if the original Oblivion was disappointing or not.

Drake · 12-05-2010, 07:22 PM

dola...

For the record, that's not uncommon for me. I usually wait on big games until the mod community has had a chance to work and the Top X (10, 20, whatever) Essential Mods have begun to gain some consensus. Then I buy the game, load up the top mods and play it that way.

The only real exception to this that I can think of is The Witcher and Dragon Age, and I even waited on those until patches and most of the DLC's (in the case of DA:O) were out.

For the record, I've asked for Fallout 3 for Xmas this year, if that tells you anything.

Draft Dodger · 12-05-2010, 07:33 PM

I tend to wait because I'm cheap. I still don't own Dragon's Age or Fallout 3.

Drake · 12-05-2010, 07:49 PM

Well, that too, DD.

I can't stand paying $60 for a game I can get in 9 months for $20.

So my preferred way of playing is a side effect of being a cheap ol' bastard.

Mota · 12-05-2010, 08:38 PM

I would say for sports, MLB Front Office Manager was horrible, it was a sim game that made it difficult for you to access any info. So it ended up being a bad graphics game and a bad sim game.

NFL Head Coach was also very disapointing to me, it had a lot more good stuff in it but it was everything that was bad about a text sim without the fun of the graphics. As it was pointed out a few posts ago, 3 hours before hitting a game is ridiculous. We want to be able to make trades and draft players but that level of tedium is not what people signed up for.

UFC 2010 was also very disapointing to me after the great game that was 2009, they essentially removed submissions from the game and wiped out ground and pound by making progressively faster standups. It basically became a kickboxing simulator at that point, not nearly as fun as the previous version.

SegRat · 12-05-2010, 10:28 PM

FOF 2010
And
TCY 2010

01-05-2010, 03:23 PM	#105
ColtCrazy College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Midwest	I am also excited to hear about the Colonization mod. I enjoyed the game at first, but quickly lost interest because of the points you made. Where can you get the mod at? I'll definitely have to check it out when I'm over my current EU3 addiction. __________________ The Field Generals and Statis Pro Basketball Super League

01-05-2010, 03:54 PM	#108
SportsDino College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2001	Blackadar, at least the vanilla version of the game the direct routing does not take into account public transportation, or even the best roadpath to take. You can see it using the route viewer, it keeps taking a bee-line for whatever it is looking for even if that means congesting a lowly side-street when a perfectly awesome highway is nearby. I might be oversimplifying it a bit, but basically, if you have a bus stop one step in the wrong direction next to your house, say right, but your job is in the general left direction, your little simizen will drive to the left when he could go one step right and take the bus (assume the other bus stop is right next door to his factory). This problem makes for very unintuitive public transportation design and much more frequent appearance of the 'I can't find a job' symbol when you are trying to design a city which doesn't match those very narrow criteria. I'm saying it is possible to make an efficient algorithm that allows the little sims to progressively get to farther jobs using all of the transportation network in a common sense way. The 'direct path' bias just makes the game unnecessarilly complex and less fun... in my opinion. I do love the game, and it really is a complex and beautiful little beast, but I feel like I'm hitting my head against a wall when I got traffic problems that would be so easy to fix if I could convince the simmies to go one step back to go twenty steps forward! I do think it is possible to model regional traffic, even if the timelines of all the little cities themselves are not synchronized. Just model each connection as a point with X supply and demand, if the connected city can satisfy it, suck as much of it down the pipe as it can take, if there is any remainder forward it on towards any other connection. What it looks like to the end user: I got five cities in a row, one big residential at square A, and four tiny industrial towns B-E, the connections are all one way and sequential. My traffic pattern you would see all of B,C,D fill up, and then E is starting to get far or the supply of people is running out, so you see barren factories. You either build residential in that town, build a better transport that lets spare people in A travel farther/faster (say a highway instead of a road), or so on and so forth. I think Sim City 4 TRIES to do this already, I've done some multi-city experiments and see a road full of traffic pass from one connection to the next, but again I think its based on that simplified algorithm and it breaks quite a bit. You cna see the traffic jump from 1000 to 100 back to 1000 again at times. I think the method they are using is computationally ugly (limiting city size potentially), doesn't reflect traffic patterns in reality or that a simpler user is expecting (I put a bus stop in the middle of the neighborhood, why is only half the neighborhood using it, WTF!!!), and slows down the pace of the game a touch more which makes the learning curve and initial impression bog down. Doesn't stop me from liking the game, I just get very nitpicky about programming flaws that do damage to the experience (I could do this with just about any game). EDIT: The technology is not a problem, its a question of algorithm design. I think they can make something that actually runs more efficiently and does a better job... but I may be biased, I am very good at designing algorithms for speed/power/flexibility so I might be overestimating their abilities/time. Last edited by SportsDino : 01-05-2010 at 03:56 PM. Reason: more info

01-06-2010, 11:24 AM	#121
Alan T Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mass.	I rename this thread the "Blackadar gets everyone back into Sim City 4 thread" __________________ Couch to ??k - From the couch to a Marathon in roughly 18 months.

01-06-2010, 01:59 PM	#128
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	thanks SportsDino - i'll definately give those an install __________________ If I've ever helped you and you'd like to buy me a coffee, or just to say thanks, I have my Bitcoin and Ethereum addressed listed below :) BTC: bc1qykhsfyn9vw4ntqfgr0svj4n9tjdgufryh2pxn5 ETH: 0x2AcdC5cd88EA537063553F5b240073bE067BaCa9

01-09-2010, 08:19 PM	#133
RendeR Coordinator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Buffalo, NY	Most disappointing game of the decade: Jets 24 Bengals 14. __________________ http://wotlabs.net/s...8/signature.png http://wotlabs.net/sig_dark/na/banichi18/signature.png

01-05-2010, 02:47 PM	#103
SportsDino College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2001	I lean towards Blackadar on Colonization, granted most of the time I didn't care about winning and I was not above using the cheating interface to get over the hurdles... but the game was not adequately play-tested in my opinion. As for Sim City 4, it is very deep and interesting, but the transportation routing needs some smarter programming and it could be much improved. I know its hard for programmers to break out of the 'simplest answer' way of building their games, but really, think about the transportation network in the abstract and design it so it really can module full region transportation. Use something a little better than direct line pathfinding which is TERRIBLE because it forces players to game city design to fix a game flaw at the very least. If I was building Sim City 4, you use some sort of greedy algorithm to match up local situations and then you hurl all non-matches out to a region level matcher and forget about it. I think to a point it sort of does this, but its too simple minded just like the direct path idea. With a little tinkering I'm sure you could make a system that does decent multiple region commutes and scales beautifully. If the user breaks a connection in between somehow, resolve it when they restart the affected city (like it seems to do now except it can only cross one region). However, even with its limitations I got a good amount of enjoyment out of it (unless there is a patch out there that specifically fixes transportation routing? I'm terrible about downloading updates/patches sometimes).

01-05-2010, 04:49 PM	#109
lcjjdnh College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: NJ	Blackadar, great stuff on SimCity4. I didn't really get into it when I first got it, but now I think I will try again. You mentioned a number of mods and patches--What would you say are the "must-haves" before I start gaming?

01-05-2010, 06:34 PM	#110
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	It's good to be able to read discussions on PC strategy games again (thanks Blacky). Regarding SimCity4, my experience was out of the box without mods, which I think is one way to evaluate games. I believe my disappointment was in trying to make suburbs work, esp. with the Bay Area map. No way to get the citizens to commute across the bay or even to Treasure Is. In two previous versions (original and 2000), I knew about and was successful in building up cities, I just wanted a different experience with 4. This is similar to a movies discussion in qualifying what is a "disappointment". There were certainly many, many bad PC games last decade but they don't count. It were the games that, for me, had some degree of high expectations that didn't come close to meeting it. Regarding Civ4:Col, I've played it twice in the past year and while I full well know how easy it was to play as Blacky detailed (and made several comments to that effect at Poly), I did have some enjoyment out of it. I have not done AoD2 yet. I fully stand by my comments about Morrowind and more so, Oblivion. I think it comes down to what games expect out of games like that and I was appalled at how ugly (Morrowind) or repititive (Oblivion), empty and boring the world were (esp. between the towns).

01-05-2010, 07:09 PM	#112
Glengoyne Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Fresno, CA	MOO 3 has to rate near the top. It was so anticipated, and SO much of a disappointment. I spent so much time trying to make it work that I actually enjoyed the minimal successes that I had. So much so that I can't bring myself to say it sucked as I did enjoy some of its facets. All in all though it was So disappointing in execution. Even trivial investment by the developers in some of the interfaces would have made it more palatable. It was like they only played the game on paper. Someone involved should write a how not to book on project management or product development. On another note, I do absolutely concur that this trophy should be named the Peter Molyneux trophy.

01-06-2010, 08:37 AM	#114
Honolulu Blue Dynasty Boy Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Michigan	I'm not sure Samdari and Blackadar are talking about the same game. Blackadar is talking about the Civ: Colonization - both modded and unmodified - that was originally released in '08. I think Samdari is talking about the original Colonization, from '94. I got a few hours of enjoyment from Civ: Col, but it was the very definition of disappointing for me. Perhaps the mod will save it. But that's a fight for another day.

01-06-2010, 10:14 AM	#116
SportsDino College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2001	Maybe they fixed something in a patch, not worth going back and figuring out really but it put a real hamper on my fun. The gamefaqs on it go into detail on the problem I see, so I'm not the only one who noticed it.

01-06-2010, 10:48 AM	#118
SportsDino College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2001	I'll have to grab NAM and try it out. I need to try out more mods, but I rarely feel like doing the legwork to monitor what is out there.

01-06-2010, 12:06 PM	#123
SportsDino College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2001	I love Morrowind and Oblivion (ya I'm a game junkie), but Oblivion pretty much requires a couple user made mods to make it livable. They should be available in a pretty nice installer by now and not too hard to figure out. If you turn off the creature/item mods (which is a simple checkbox in the mod I use) it is very stable. I can very easily see why people wouldn't like those games, they tend to get bland gameplay wise (the design encourages it). However, I love wide open exploration and traveling so Oblivion/Morrowind/Fallout fascinate the hell out of me. I just wish they combined that with either a nice combat system like Dragon Age or plot/mission design a little deeper than fetch quest and hack and slash.

01-06-2010, 12:46 PM	#125
SportsDino College Prospect Join Date: Oct 2001	Ya sorting through mods is the hard part (and why i barely do it). At a min I'd suggest: Francesco's leveled creatures/items Francesco My preferred complete game redo mod, comes with a pretty easy to use installer and you can turn on/off things you don't like. If you want the vanilla game but better, just turn on everything except the new creatures/items and it should run like a charm (I have been annoyed by the new creatures/items though). That mod by itself makes the biggest difference. I also like: Tamriel Viewable When Distant Tamriel Viewable When Distant - Oblivion Mod Wiki If you got the spare graphics speed, this mod makes the world seem a lot more real, you see cities from far away, even if its not perfect it makes it more immersive to me. SaddleBags Saddle Bags - Planet Elder Scrolls Given no companions, and the massive amounts of loot, this mod is near essential. I'm a big roleplayer and I don't fast travel, so basically I load up my horse with supplies and trek between cities and dungeons selling off the loot from a few stops along the way. Someone's top ten list Ten essential Oblivion mods - Planet Elder Scrolls I haven't used BT mod recently, but I think it works... on my last install I forgot this link and only picked off my top three faves. I have used BT Mod in the past and it helps. Elven maps looks cool, so I'll probably try that (I haven't played Oblivion in a while, but I might be feeling the urge after being railroaded in Dragon Age a little too much despite loving the gameplay). Scenery mods and new creatures are usually cool, BUT sometimes I disagree with some of the artistic choices (particularly difficult creatures in the overworld which sometimes can screw things up since they will chase you halfway around the world and kill off roaming villagers!). I personally like the biggest baddies in the dungeons and let me come to them, but increased wildlife out and about is probably what I will do for next playthrough. I just tend to notch down the very difficult monsters if I can.

01-06-2010, 02:46 PM	#131
Calis College Starter Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kansas	Yeah the mods for Oblivion are the only thing that kept it off my most disappointing list. They were able to address a lot of the issues, but user mods can only do so much. They fixed a lot of mechanics issues(mob scaling, finding bandits decked out in full Daedric armor, etc....), but the bigger problems are the world design and characters in general. It is all completely forgettable. I will say a few of the Dark Brotherhood quests were far and above anything else in the game and actually pretty interesting. I think that is what is most disappointing about Bethesda, the fact they get so close, but seem to keep failing in the same areas. Anyway, I've also discussed that too much in the past so I won't harp too much. There are some really impressive mods out there and I can't imagine playing without them. I never played SimCity 4 but all this talk has me intrigued.

12-05-2010, 12:19 PM	#134
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	Bump for JonInMGA. This was not even a year ago. Tbh, I was looking for Blacky's recommendations on SimCity4 mods.

12-05-2010, 04:19 PM	#138
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	Anyone say Republic, ,the Revolution? __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

12-05-2010, 04:23 PM	#139
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	Still MOO3 for me. http://moo3.quicksilver.com/main2.html The website is still there. I can't remember how many hours I spent looking at that. Man, the Ithkul had so much potential. Too bad the game sucked so bad.

12-05-2010, 04:41 PM	#141
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	Heh, I didn;t realize this was old, went and reread it and saw I mentioned Republic earlier. Funny. __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

12-05-2010, 05:23 PM	#143
Atocep Coordinator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Puyallup, WA	Would be Oblivion for me. Modded Morrowind was one of the most fun experiences I've had in a game and Oblivion felt like a major step backwards from how I had Morrowind. The Assassins Guild and Vampire questlines were really good, but combat is still stuck in the 90s left click, left click, left click mentality. The main story is the typical Bethesda approach where they give you a really short main questline that they give the appearance of being much larger by throwing you in a huge world and spreading the steps out. The mod community was also really slow to switch over and was nowhere near what it had been for Morrowind by the time I had given up. I don't think Oblivion was a bad game at all, but it was still the most disappointing for me.

12-05-2010, 05:28 PM	#144
Abe Sargent Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Catonsville, MD	Oblivion was very by the numbers boring, not great, not bad, just so so. Morrowind was interesting, different, and really fun, and with some flaws that were not corrected in Oblivion. __________________ Check out my two current weekly Magic columns! https://www.coolstuffinc.com/a/?action=search&page=1&author[]=Abe%20Sargent

12-05-2010, 07:13 PM	#145
Drake assmaster Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Bloomington, IN	I adored Oblivion (and Morrowind as well)...but I just realized that I've never played vanilla Oblivion. I had Francesco's mod and Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul from the start. OOO completely remakes Oblivion into a can't miss for me...but that also means I can't tell if the original Oblivion was disappointing or not.

12-05-2010, 07:22 PM	#146
Drake assmaster Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Bloomington, IN	dola... For the record, that's not uncommon for me. I usually wait on big games until the mod community has had a chance to work and the Top X (10, 20, whatever) Essential Mods have begun to gain some consensus. Then I buy the game, load up the top mods and play it that way. The only real exception to this that I can think of is The Witcher and Dragon Age, and I even waited on those until patches and most of the DLC's (in the case of DA:O) were out. For the record, I've asked for Fallout 3 for Xmas this year, if that tells you anything.

12-05-2010, 07:33 PM	#147
Draft Dodger Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Keene, NH	I tend to wait because I'm cheap. I still don't own Dragon's Age or Fallout 3. __________________ Mile High Hockey

12-05-2010, 07:49 PM	#148
Drake assmaster Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Bloomington, IN	Well, that too, DD. I can't stand paying $60 for a game I can get in 9 months for $20. So my preferred way of playing is a side effect of being a cheap ol' bastard.

12-05-2010, 08:38 PM	#149
Mota College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jan 2001	I would say for sports, MLB Front Office Manager was horrible, it was a sim game that made it difficult for you to access any info. So it ended up being a bad graphics game and a bad sim game. NFL Head Coach was also very disapointing to me, it had a lot more good stuff in it but it was everything that was bad about a text sim without the fun of the graphics. As it was pointed out a few posts ago, 3 hours before hitting a game is ridiculous. We want to be able to make trades and draft players but that level of tedium is not what people signed up for. UFC 2010 was also very disapointing to me after the great game that was 2009, they essentially removed submissions from the game and wiped out ground and pound by making progressively faster standups. It basically became a kickboxing simulator at that point, not nearly as fun as the previous version.

12-05-2010, 10:28 PM	#150
SegRat High School Varsity Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Oshkosh, WI	FOF 2010 And TCY 2010 __________________ USFL: Charlotte Fightn' Squirrels

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