Shooting at courthouse in Downtown Atlanta

[KevinNU7]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Police officers have surrounded an apartment in NW Atlanta, according to WSB-Radio.

Anyone else think this guy will be shot dead by a SWAT team?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

I hate to see anything like this happen, but wouldn't this have been a much better story if it had been Michael Jackson?

With the amount of airplay he got for wearing his pajamas yesterday, I imagine that if he did something like that, all the major media outlets would explode.

[JeeberD]

DA just confirmed that a shank was found on him the other day...

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Police officers have surrounded an apartment in NW Atlanta, according to WSB-Radio.

Are they giving any specifics as to where?

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

DA just confirmed that a shank was found on him the other day...

Alleged rapist... already tried to take a weapon to court... left alone in a room, unrestrained, with one female cop.

Seriously... criminal charges need to be brought against whoever's in charge around there. People are dead because somebody was really, really, fucking stupid.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Originally Posted by KevinNU7

Anyone else think this guy will be shot dead by a SWAT team?

The history on this guy probably indicates that they will put him in the back seat of a running police vehicle with no cage and leave him unattended...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by KevinNU7

Anyone else think this guy will be shot dead by a SWAT team?

Anyone think this guy WON'T be shot dead, either by himself or the police?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

The history on this guy probably indicates that they will put him in the back seat of a running police vehicle with no cage and leave him unattended...

I think Reno 911 needs to be relocated.

[judicial clerk]

A couple of random thoughts:

-I worked in Multnomah County (Portland, OR) courthouse for two years as a clerk for a judge. Most cases we, and every other judge, handled were criminal cases;

-Like the courthouse in Georgia, my courthouse was antiquated with holding cells on the top floor but nothing similarly secure anywhere else in the courthouse. Sheriffs deputies also served the roll of guard/bailiff in the courtrooms, all the deputies were armed;

-in the old courthouse I worked in, there were three seperate stairwells and four elevators, it is not impossible for a defendant two make the street if they get out in the first two minutes of the attemtpted escape;

-many of the deputies I worked with were women. They all seemed very capable and professional. That said, a guy like this would never be guarded by just one deputy, man or woman, and the only time he would be out of his shackles (wrists and ankles) is right before the jury was brought in. Only a couple of times did i ever see an unshackled defendant even try to stand up, and when they did, the deputies were all over them. Most deputies I saw at one sentencing was once we were sentencing a guy for a rape who was also a convicted murder and he had fucked up a couple of other inmates at the jail (although he was always polite and calm in the courtroom) they brought six deputies with him ( four right behind him and one standing outside each door into the courtroom);

-I did have a couple of times when defendants who were not in custody try to run after the guilty verdict was announced. Once, the judge yelled at her and she stopped and came back, once a guy ran into a DA right in the courtroom doorway and then the deputies took him into custody. Other defendants had made it out of the courthouse that I know of, so many people milling around and it takes at least thirty seconds for the deputies (except those in the room) to know the description of the defendant;

-in my courthouse, both the judge and the clerk had a silent alarm button. I pushed it just once (for the guy who ran into the DA in the doorway) and it took about three minutes for the deputies to get there, I also worked with one judge (who was retired and just filling in for a few days). He had a pistol under his robes;

-Ksyrup's quotes comport with my exact understanding of the law. Jury can't see the defendant in their handcuffs or in their prison gear. Defendants a couple of times moved for a mistrial b/c the jury saw them shackled up. Motion was always denied that I saw. The only guys who didn't have their shackles taken off were times where the person caused a previous disturbance in the courthouse or maybe in the jail. Also, the judge usually would actually issue an order autheorizing the defendant to stay in shackles;

-all that said, after you do a criminal case with an in-custody defendant for the 1000th time and everything is going smoothly just like all the times before, it is only human nature to become complacent. Unfortunatly, it looks like like complacency in this case has led to tragic results.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Are they giving any specifics as to where?

Nothing further said about it. Now Captain Herb just said around 20 trooper cars and two helicopters appear to be closing in on a location in Avondale Estates.

Sounds like they're chasing every shadow they see at this point.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by judicial clerk

-in my courthouse, both the judge and the clerk had a silent alarm button. I pushed it just once (for the guy who ran into the DA in the doorway) and it took about three minutes for the deputies to get there, I also worked with one judge (who was retired and just filling in for a few days). He had a pistol under his robes

Is it common for judges to pack heat?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Is it common for judges to pack heat?

Penis pumps, yes; heat, no. Unless they get sore from the penis pump.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Captain Herb???

"Wow... Like... There's some cops man... and they're like, doing something man... For WBS Radio... Oh yeah... For WSB Radio, I'm Captain Herb... High in the sky..."

Sorry. Just tryin' to lighten the mood. This story is a bit heavy.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

Captain Herb???

"Wow... Like... There's some cops man... and they're like, doing something man... For WBS Radio... Oh yeah... For WSB Radio, I'm Captain Herb... High in the sky..."

Sorry. Just tryin' to lighten the mood. This story is a bit heavy.

Don't forget about Lieutenant Towlie.

[Joe]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Police officers have surrounded an apartment in NW Atlanta, according to WSB-Radio.

wow why would the guy still be in atlanta.

[Ksyrup]

From CNN:


Nichols -- who was in custody but was allowed to change from jail scrubs into street clothes, a normal occurrence when defendants face jurors -- apparently struggled with the deputy for the gun and overpowered her, police said.

Sources told CNN the initial overpowering occurred in an elevator.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by George W Bush

wow why would the guy still be in atlanta.

Well, for starters, he doesn't seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. I mean, we're talking about a guy who took sandwiches with him to rape his ex-gf.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Sources told CNN the initial overpowering occurred in an elevator.

This is just looking worse and worse for law enforcement every second...

[judicial clerk]

Is it common for judges to pack heat?

It is extremely uncommon. as far as I know, this is the only judge I worked with who did. This Judge was a real character.

DA just confirmed that a shank was found on him the other day...

This is quite suprising. This is the type of fact that would allow a judge to keep a guy shackled in front of the jury.

I don't think this guy will do himself, his self preservation instinct seems too high, but he may not survive his arrest.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

From CNN:


Nichols -- who was in custody but was allowed to change from jail scrubs into street clothes, a normal occurrence when defendants face jurors -- apparently struggled with the deputy for the gun and overpowered her, police said.

Sources told CNN the initial overpowering occurred in an elevator.

Here's my question - why was a female assigned to this guy? He appears to be fairly good size, from what I can see on tv. Was this woman larger than Nichols?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

Here's my question - why was a female assigned to this guy? He appears to be fairly good size, from what I can see on tv. Was this woman larger than Nichols?

You chauvanist pig.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

Here's my question - why was a female assigned to this guy? He appears to be fairly good size, from what I can see on tv. Was this woman larger than Nichols?

Thank you.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

You chauvanist pig.

D'oh. Didn't see that. Sorry.

Though I'm not really concerned that this was a rape trial - she's a cop, if she can't handle uncomfortable trials then she shouldn't be one. I'm more concerned about the physiology here. There's a reason why bouncers at clubs are huge men, and not short little women like me (though I am pretty buff, don't make me flex and show off my muscles). Was that same logic applied in this situation? I'm not so sure. If it wasn't, why not?

[judicial clerk]

Though I'm not really concerned that this was a rape trial - she's a cop, if she can't handle uncomfortable trials then she shouldn't be one. I'm more concerned about the physiology here. There's a reason why bouncers at clubs are huge men, and not short little women like me (though I am pretty buff, don't make me flex and show off my muscles). Was that same logic applied in this situation? I'm not so sure. If it wasn't, why not?

I think that the gun, mace, and maybe tazer she was carrying was supposed to compensate for her lack of size. No deputy (man or woman) should be left alone with the guy, however and he shouldn't be riding around in elevators un-schackled.

[judicial clerk]

I'm a member of the MCPAD and I don't like the tone of your post, bigot.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

D'oh. Didn't see that. Sorry.

Though I'm not really concerned that this was a rape trial - she's a cop, if she can't handle uncomfortable trials then she shouldn't be one. I'm more concerned about the physiology here. There's a reason why bouncers at clubs are huge men, and not short little women like me (though I am pretty buff, don't make me flex and show off my muscles). Was that same logic applied in this situation? I'm not so sure. If it wasn't, why not?

Come on, be P.C . Anyone out there can do any job out there, and physical limitations should not be taken into account. Would these people still be alive if he was being guarded by a man who was 6-8 and 345 lbs? That's not the issue here. The issue is that you can't discriminate against anyone, ever. We honestly can't say that a mentally challenged paraplegic albino dwarf-cop would have been any less effectictive in this situation.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Well, for starters, he doesn't seem to be the sharpest knife in the drawer. I mean, we're talking about a guy who took sandwiches with him to rape his ex-gf.

FWIW, he was a very intelligent guy.

Originally Posted by George W Bush

wow why would the guy still be in atlanta.

If you're trying to get away from Atlanta, your best bet would be to wait until nightfall. Until then, you'd have to deal with traffic and at the same time, have your description and your car's description all over the radio & interstate signs.

[digamma]

Reminds me of the day trader 7 or 8 years ago who shot up his broker's office in Buckhead, led cops on a chase all over the city before killing himself at a gas station.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Franklinnoble

Just callin' it like I see it. Men are, by nature, stronger than women. Especially a man who has already demonstrated a likelihood that he was able to forcibly rape a woman. To leave such a person alone in a room, unrestrained, with only a female officer guarding him, is the height of irresponsible stupidity.

In this case, you are right - he should have been being guarded by a man...someone who might be able to intimidate him. This guy is clearly someone who has no respect for authority or human life, for that matter.

However, to make the statement that women should never guard men is chauvanistic in nature.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

We honestly can't say that a mentally challenged paraplegic albino dwarf-cop would have been any less effectictive in this situation.

Expect a lawsuit from the International Brotherhood of Mentally-Challenged Paraplegic Albino Dwarf-Cops any day now.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by judicial clerk

I think that the gun, mace, and maybe tazer she was carrying was supposed to compensate for her lack of size.

Well they don't compensate very well if she's not strong enough to keep them away from those in her custody, now do they? I thought one of the things taught in the police academy is how to subdue a suspect without the weapons. Is that not the case anymore? If so, why didn't this female officer succeed in subduing Nichols?

Originally Posted by BigJohn&TheLions

Come on, be P.C . Anyone out there can do any job out there, and physical limitations should not be taken into account. Would these people still be alive if he was being guarded by a man who was 6-8 and 345 lbs? That's not the issue here. The issue is that you can't discriminate against anyone, ever. We honestly can't say that a mentally challenged paraplegic albino dwarf-cop would have been any less effectictive in this situation.

I know you're being sarcastic here, but sadly sometimes I think that's what this world is coming to.

I'm not so bold as to say that had a man been guarding this guy that no one would have died today. I just don't know that. I just have questions. Would Nichols thought twice if a 6'4" man weighing 220lbs was guarding him? Would a larger man been able to subdue him?

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

In this case, you are right - he should have been being guarded by a man...someone who might be able to intimidate him. This guy is clearly someone who has no respect for authority or human life, for that matter.

However, to make the statement that women should never guard men is chauvanistic in nature.

So what you're saying is that a woman should guard a man if he's not dangerous, but shouldn't guard him if he is?

How, for that matter, are you going to determine what constitutes a "dangerous" male suspect? The crime of which the man is being accused?

I don't see how chauvinism enters the picture at all given the argument you appear to be advancing.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

So what you're saying is that a woman should guard a man if he's not dangerous, but shouldn't guard him if he is?

How, for that matter, are you going to determine what constitutes a "dangerous" male suspect? The crime of which the man is being accused?

I don't see how chauvinism enters the picture at all given the argument you appear to be advancing.

I think given the violent nature of his crime which was directed toward a woman, rape, they should have thought twice about placing a female officer alone with this guy, after he had already tried to smuggle homemade weapons into the courthouse. I think having a woman guard was in a way just taunting him. That is not to say that he wouldn't have done this if he was being guarded by a 7 foot tall muscular guy either, just an observation.

[SackAttack]

And you won't find any argument with me on how they should have proceeded in this particular case.

But you still haven't explained why the view in question is chauvinistic.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I think given the violent nature of his crime which was directed toward a woman, rape, they should have thought twice about placing a female officer alone with this guy

Sorry, I don't buy that argument. There should be no special treatment like that for female officers. There shouldn't be any "sensitivity" to the crime the suspect committed. I thought women wanted to be treated equally? If you do, then you don't get special consideration. When you're in uniform, you're a cop, not a man or a woman. Nichols and his caretakers should have been matched up based on physical attributes only. If a Fulton County had a 6'4 220lb woman was a cop, then put her with him.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

And you won't find any argument with me on how they should have proceeded in this particular case.

But you still haven't explained why the view in question is chauvinistic.

Because his original comment, which he prefaced by saying "Call me a chauvanist pig but..." said that female officers should't guard male prisoners. Making a generalized statement like that I think is chauvanistic...it's always easy to look back on a situation and say "shoulda, woulda, coulda"...and if this tragedy hadn't happened today we wouldn't even be having this conversation. But it did happen, and it makes me rethink the fact that a violent rapist was being guarded by a woman who was clearly smaller and unable to properly defend herself. Maybe if she was 6 foot tall and a body builder I'd have a different view point, but at this time, in my opinion, having that woman guard him was a mistake. Notice that I didn't say A woman, I said THAT woman....

[Franklinnoble]

Personally, I think a society that sends women to fight its battles has lost its way.

That's chivalry, not chauvinism.

I'm not trying to belittle women, I'm just saying there are things in this world that men ought to take care of, and they should be happy to do it.

[BigJohn&TheLions]

Originally Posted by Farrah Whitworth-Rahn

If a Fulton County had a 6'4 220lb woman was a cop, then put her with him.

I know some guys who would purposly commit crimes if they thought a 6'4 220lb woman cop would be frisking them... "Put ya hands up, sugah!"

[judicial clerk]

I think that, man or woman, the big mistake is having one guard for a inmate, especially one who is not shackled. Especially, especially one who exhibited high risk behavior (smuggling the shank). I would have sent three or four deputies, regardless of sex or size.

I wouldn't be suprised if there wasn't even a physical fitness test as part of the hiring process to get this job as a deputy.

My wife is a probation officer who carries a badge and all the paraphenalia ( gun, cuffs, asp). She takes defensive tactics courses on how to subdue people who resist arrest. None of the tactics she learns work on me, and I doubt she could withstand a punch from me.

So should women be cops or guards? To say no would be chauvenist, but to say yes either means that physical fitness and ability can play no part in the job or to pretend that women can meet the same physical fitness and ability standards as men.

[vtbub]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I think given the violent nature of his crime which was directed toward a woman, rape, they should have thought twice about placing a female officer alone with this guy, after he had already tried to smuggle homemade weapons into the courthouse. I think having a woman guard was in a way just taunting him. That is not to say that he wouldn't have done this if he was being guarded by a 7 foot tall muscular guy either, just an observation.

I think the bigger issue shoud be why was she by herself, especially 48 hours after them finding a knife.

I don't think gender is real important, but the lack of a partner, and the lack of protection, i.e. he being not secured, are the hugest mistakes.

[vtbub]

Originally Posted by judicial clerk

I think that, man or woman, the big mistake is having one guard for a inmate, especially one who is not shackled. Especially, especially one who exhibited high risk behavior (smuggling the shank). I would have sent three or four deputies, regardless of sex or size.

I wouldn't be suprised if there wasn't even a physical fitness test as part of the hiring process to get this job as a deputy.

My wife is a probation officer who carries a badge and all the paraphenalia ( gun, cuffs, asp). She takes defensive tactics courses on how to subdue people who resist arrest. None of the tactics she learns work on me, and I doubt she could withstand a punch from me.

So should women be cops or guards? To say no would be chauvenist, but to say yes either means that physical fitness and ability can play no part in the job or to pretend that women can meet the same physical fitness and ability standards as men.

Dola,

Considering what it takes to get through the academy, gender is not important.

[Farrah Whitworth-Rahn]

Originally Posted by judicial clerk

So should women be cops or guards? To say no would be chauvenist, but to say yes either means that physical fitness and ability can play no part in the job or to pretend that women can meet the same physical fitness and ability standards as men.

So then let me ask this - is admitting there are physiological differences between a man and a woman chauvenistic? I think not. There are just some things men can do naturally that women can't.

Physical fitness and ability should play a role in these types of jobs. Safety depends on it. One set of standards, determined based on the needs of the job duties should be all that it takes. If you can meet them, then you'rw a cop/guard. If you can't, you're not.

But I know that will never, ever happen.


(oh - BTW I do agree with your comments about the number of guards.)

[HomerJSimpson]

My father was a firefighter in a major metropolitian fire department. He worked during the years women were first being brought into the department. He had no problem with the women that pitched in and pulled their weight, but there were a good number who only got the job by suing to get the physical requirements lowered, and then ducked any work that was too hard by saying they weren't strong enough to do it. If your not strong enough to pull a hose or carry someone out of a building, then you shouldn't be a firefighter.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

.., but there were a good number who only got the job by suing to get the physical requirements lowered, and then ducked any work that was too hard by saying they weren't strong enough to do it. If your not strong enough to pull a hose or carry someone out of a building, then you shouldn't be a firefighter.

Same shit happens in the military. You can bet your ass enemy combatants aren't giving the women special consideration.

[HomerJSimpson]

Full Story:

Sheriff's official tells how shootings happened

> By BETH WARREN
Atlanta Journal-Constitution
> Published on: 03/11/05
Fulton Sheriff's Sgt. Mike Thompson described how a man in custody was able to obtain the gun he used to shoot and kill three people this morning at the Fulton County Courthouse.

Thompson said Deputy Cynthia Hall had shooting suspect Brian Nichols in a holding area on the eighth floor of the Justice Center Tower in downtown Atlanta. Nichols was changing his jail clothes to his street clothes to appear before Fulton County Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes in his rape case.

Before Hall was able to handcuff Nichols after he had changed, Thompson said, he grabbed the deputy's gun and shot her and grabbed her keys. Nichols needed the keys to leave the the hold room, which was between courtrooms 8A and 8B in the newest part of the courthouse.

Nichols opened the door and ran across a nearby walkway that connects the new part of the justice center to the old part, where Barnes was in court. Nichols made his way to the courtroom, entered and began shooting, Thompson said. Barnes was shot in the head. Court reporter Julie Brandau was also shot. Both died on the scene.

Nichols ran out of an exit and apparently ran down seven flights of stairs and out an emergency exit, which triggered an alarm, although deputies had already been put on alert. Nichols fled through the side of the building on Martin Luther King Drive.

Sheriff's Deputy Hoyt Teasley ran after Nichols as he left the building. As Teasley stepped off the sidewalk onto MLK, Nichols turned around and fired six shots, Thompson said. At least one hit Teasley in the abdomen.

Two female City Hall employees were walking down the sidewalk near the deputy before he was shot. They said Nichols looked at them coldly, looked at the deputy, then shot the deputy.

Teasley, who was not wearing a bulletproof vest, had drawn his gun but didn't have a chance to fire it. His weapon was found near his body.

Thompson arrived shortly thereafter and saw other sheriff's employees pick Teasley up and put him in a patrol car because traffic was blocked and ambulances could not reach him. Thompson told those helping Teasley to take him back out of the car so Thompson could administer CPR. The CPR was unsuccessful, and Teasley was put back into the patrol car.

Thompson wiped the blood off his hand and began roping off the area with yellow crime scene tape.

"I tried to help him. I did all I could," Thompson said as he hugged one of the City Hall employees after the shooting.

Thompson said Teasley was assigned to building security and would be seen as people entered the court building. Thompson called Teasley quiet and good-natured.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by vtbub

I think the bigger issue shoud be why was she by herself, especially 48 hours after them finding a knife.

I don't think gender is real important, but the lack of a partner, and the lack of protection, i.e. he being not secured, are the hugest mistakes.

I agree completely...but, for arguments sake, let's say that they are short staffed on Deputys and cannot put more than one per inmate when transporting them to jail. If you were the supervisor/manager in charge of assigning deputys, would you, knowing that this inmate was being charged with a violent crime against a woman, rape....place a female guard with him? Knowing she would be alone? Forgetting her size, or anything like that...if it were me, I would do everything I could to make sure this particular inmate had a male guard with him.

[vtbub]

For arguments sake, no.

I'm assuming that she is well trained for her assignment. I'm also assuming that her union would never allow that to begin with. As her supervisor, I need to have complete confidence in her being able to do all her duties.

[stevew]

The dangerous thing about this is that there may be people who will attempt to copy cat this guy. Figure if you are likely to do 20-life in jail anyways, being back on the street, with the chance to go out on your own terms is inticing to some. Especially when its been shown that security in a major metropolitian area can be so pisspoor. Its gotta be way easier to escape from smaller county courthouses.

[vtbub]

CNN.com is reporting that the car "allegedly" stolen has been found in downtown Atlanta.

[CraigSca]

In the same garage where the journalist was pistol-whipped THIS MORNING. You think they could have checked the entire garage in less than 15 hours?!

Absolutely incredible.