Inception (movie discussion - SPOILER warning)

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Hmm, did it strike anyone else that when Cobb had the phone conversation with his kids that the daughter sounded older than the vision of her we'd seen elsewhere in the movie? If there were indeed 2 actors each for both of the kids, maybe one set was for the phone call...

I thought the son sounded much older, like in his teens older.

[stevew]

Maybe I'll watch it again. Right now, I almost lean negative. I'd compare this movie to some dude who watched Usual Suspects. Then watched The Matrix. And he ran out of story about 75% of the way through, and decided to run a swerve with the basic audience/storyteller relationship in order to create a perception of depth throughout the story that maybe just isn't there. Maybe I'm in the it's a 7/10 movie(entertaining) camp instead of the 10/10(awesome) camp.

[jeff061]

The best argument/theory for the end being real that I have heard yet is the thought that the top isn't actually Cobb's totem. (Remember the safe in Mal's house?) The top is Mal's totem. Cobb's totem is his wedding ring and he doesn't have it on in the end. He does have it on every time in the movie when they are "dreaming" and doesn't have it on when they are in "reality." The top is to fool the other characters of his true totem but I guess it's also supposed to fool the audience - which it has done really well if this theory is correct!!

This could also be an argument toward a dream. I like the idea that whether the top stops spinning or not is irrelevant, it's that he doesn't wait to see what it does that's important(if he's in a dream, he doesn't care). The ring could be "dreamed off" either because he doesn't want to know the answer or he doesn't want to be reminded of it.

My feeling is the last scene is definitely a dream. Partly because of what I just wrote and simply because the final scene with the kids is nearly a carbon copy of his last memory of them. That's a bit much.

Part of the reason I like the movie(wouldn't call it his best, which is not a knock) is that for all of the hype of it being another Memento mind bender, it wasn't that complicated. He took what could have been a complex and convoluted idea and made it pretty simple without dumbing things down much. And apparently put enough meat into it to leave discussion.

Nolan's body of work from the moment he stepped on the scene is just jaw dropping.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

4. Another thing. At the end of the movie, Cobb gets home and spins that top. In every other scene when he did that, he always waited to watch it fall. Always. In the last scene, however, he spins it, watches it for a second or two, and then goes to see his kids. He doesn't seem to care at all whether it's a dream or reality. And, if he doesn't care, what difference does it really make? (Unless, of course, it is a dream and, at some point, like in that long dream with his wife, he realizes it's all just a facisimile and it starts to crumble/drive him mad.) Does that mean that his "inception" took? Or was he just excited to see his kids and the top eventually stopped spinning.

4 is my interpretation - it just doesn't matter. I don't like it (I think the world Nolan built is more interesting than the plot that he uses to showcase it), but I think its very clear (remember the line about the railway tracks? It doesn't matter where we're going, because I'm going there with you).

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

Originally Posted by stevew

Maybe I'll watch it again. Right now, I almost lean negative. I'd compare this movie to some dude who watched Usual Suspects. Then watched The Matrix. And he ran out of story about 75% of the way through, and decided to run a swerve with the basic audience/storyteller relationship in order to create a perception of depth throughout the story that maybe just isn't there. Maybe I'm in the it's a 7/10 movie(entertaining) camp instead of the 10/10(awesome) camp.

I'm with you on this. I found the movie to be quite entertaining, but I think the problem is that there is no greater meaning or theme to the movie. At first, like everyone else I was debating what happened at the end, but then I came to the conclusion that it didn't really matter at all.

You bring up the matrix which had a terrific theme. Would people give up some measure of control to live in a dream world or would they pick the real world but not have as nice of a life or something along those lines.

For inception, I'm not sure what is really at stake and that's why to me it doesn't matter what happens to Cobb.

[jeff061]

Originally Posted by rowech

Why does it have to be a "meaning" movie? I don't think it was intended as that at all. I think it was just an action movie set in dreams because we all have bizarre ones at some point.

Totally agree.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by rowech

I think people are trying to read way too much into this movie. It's an action movie set in a crazy world with a guy trying to get past the death of his wife that he feels partially responsible for. That's it. Don't look into it anymore than that other than to figure out whether or not he's dreaming or whether or not he's "out".

I agree with this. I think you can read any kind of meaning you want into it really. It doesn't necessarily have to have some deep philosophy or meaning. If you want to dig around and look for it, I'm sure you could find it. People also are under the impression that Nolan thinks this movie is deep or has some great meaning. Maybe he said that in an interview or something, I don't know, but who is to say he just didn't make a very clever, absolutely stunning action movie with a solid cast.

The Matrix comparison is a good one and one I've made elsewhere. I think both are fantastic. You start to get into trouble when you start thinking your movie is something more than it is or has some deep philosophy (see, e.g., the Matrix sequels.)

[stevew]

Originally Posted by rowech

Why does it have to be a "meaning" movie? I don't think it was intended as that at all. I think it was just an action movie set in dreams because we all have bizarre ones at some point.

because it is extremely well reviewed and is easily even money or better for a best picture nod.

[jeff061]

Especially with Dicaprio.

It may be an action movie at it's core, but it's not a Michael Bay flick.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by LastWhiteSoxFanStanding

I'm with you on this. I found the movie to be quite entertaining, but I think the problem is that there is no greater meaning or theme to the movie. At first, like everyone else I was debating what happened at the end, but then I came to the conclusion that it didn't really matter at all.

You bring up the matrix which had a terrific theme. Would people give up some measure of control to live in a dream world or would they pick the real world but not have as nice of a life or something along those lines.

For inception, I'm not sure what is really at stake and that's why to me it doesn't matter what happens to Cobb.

I actually think that's the same overarching question Nolan was aiming to pose - what does it mean to be real vs. our perception being reality? And as long as the person is happy, does it matter whether their perception is "real" or not? It's as deep and interesting as any particular person wants it to be - if that's a question you're interested in exploring, it opens a door to it without pretending it has the answer, but if you couldn't really care less and wanted to see a closed-loop Hollywood blockbuster that's available for you too. But trying to say the Matrix had a great theme while Inception doesn't - particularly if we consider the sequels where it's clear the ambiguity of the first one was what made it special rather than any answer the Wachowski brothers gave - is misguided imo.

[FF]

can anyone tell me what scenes they remember leo spinning the top and then seeing it fall over?

i remember once in kyoto, and then once in africa (but i dont think he actually succeeds in spinning it, it just kinda falls over).

and can someone confirm that its said the totem is to make sure youre not in someone elses dream?

[cyril]

i am glad that the movie is doing so well, I wish there are more movies like this being made. I don't think it's just an entertaining action movie (though I do wish there is less gun shooting), given Nolan did Memento, which remains one of my very favorite movies. BTW, those who likes Inception or Memento should check out another movie called "Machinist" starring Christian Bale, similar genre, also very excellent IMO.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by rowech

Because they nominate 10 movies now, that argument of it being a best picture nod is long dead. If there were only 5 nominations, this would not get nominated.

I'll give we don't know about the traditional Oscar worthy films coming at the end of the year yet, but unless it's just an amazing year for great Oscar movies, no way this would not get nominated for Best Picture, even with five noms only.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I'll give we don't know about the traditional Oscar worthy films coming at the end of the year yet, but unless it's just an amazing year for great Oscar movies, no way this would not get nominated for Best Picture, even with five noms only.

I agree. Granted, it's a bit early to say at this point. Most Best Picture potential films are usually released later in the year closer to the nomination process. Overall, this has been a pretty shitty year for films. At this point, what else is even in the running?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by rowech

I think people are trying to read way too much into this movie. It's an action movie set in a crazy world with a guy trying to get past the death of his wife that he feels partially responsible for. That's it. Don't look into it anymore than that other than to figure out whether or not he's dreaming or whether or not he's "out".

Movies, like art, literature or music can be interpreted differently by different people. If you want to look at a painting and go "pretty cool" and walk away, you can. If you are like me and look at a classic painting and go "ummm, I don't get it", you can do that too.

I think this movie succeeds on a lot of levels, but first and foremost is that it has something for everyone. If you just like Summer action flicks, I think this has enough action and suspense to make you happy.

But I think it's fairly obvious that Nolan meant this film to be deeper and have meaning. What that meaning is? I'm still working it out, I love all of the theories. My personal opinion is Nolan pulled an Inception on all of us. Like Mal, we are looking for reasons as to why the world isn't real and we assume it's a dream.

I don't think a script ten years in the making was simply meant as a summer blockbuster.

Just my opinion.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by cyril

i am glad that the movie is doing so well, I wish there are more movies like this being made. I don't think it's just an entertaining action movie (though I do wish there is less gun shooting), given Nolan did Memento, which remains one of my very favorite movies. BTW, those who likes Inception or Memento should check out another movie called "Machinist" starring Christian Bale, similar genre, also very excellent IMO.

The Machinist is a good one, tough to watch though because Bale lost like 100 pounds to play the role. He looks like a walking corpse in that movie.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Animated films Toy Story 3 and How to Train Your Dragon could get nominated. I expect at least one of them, or Despicable Me, to be in there.

Exit Through The Gift Shop and Please Give could sneak in.

Winter's Bone should be a lock.

Babies might get a look.

Shutter Island.

Green Zone could get a look.

Crazy Heart would be my pick to win so far.

Not a great year but 5-6 films that are legit picture of the year options and Crazy Heart is a head above as far as I'm concerned.

I have seen all of those animated movies. Only Toy Story has a chance among them, IMO, and that would only be in a weak year for Oscar with the ten 10 noms. Good movies, great for kids, not best pic worthy, IMO.

Crazy Heart was a 2009 movie, and, in fact, was nominated for this past year's Academy Awards.

I loved Shutter Island, but I don't see that getting a Best Pic nom either, even in a ten nom year. Maybe if Scorsese hadn't won his Oscar, sure, but it's not good enough on its own without the emotional Academy support.

I haven't seen the others, but it's very hard to get an Oscar nom when you're released from January to June. Only one of the others I have even heard about is Babies, and I don't see the Academy giving a Best Pic nod for that sorta movie. If it qualifies as a documentary (and it seems like it could), then I could see it in that category.

[Groundhog]

Just got back from the cinema. Need to give this one some more thought. There are a couple of scenes in particular during the first half of the film that, in hindsight, might have implied more than I first thought.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival

Forgot all about Crazy Heart getting in but it was a 2010 release (Feb 5). It's not been a great year but I'm pretty sure Shutter Island and Inception have good shots. I could see Despicable Me sneaking in with TS3.

Green Zone could sneak in due to its political leanings. Winter's Bone and Exit Through the Gift shop are the kind of excellent indie films that often get nominated and the 10 movie option makes both appealing.

There are a few things that I haven't seen/haven't come out yet that may fit in the mix. I'm going to catch "The Kids Are Alright" in a few days and the reviews are fantastic.

The Tillman Story has a chance to get in the mix if it's done well.

Pretty sure Eat, Pray, Love, Saw VII, Freakanomics and Jackass 3 aren't going to make it.

Well, it might have gone wide on Feb. 5, 2010, but Crazy Heart is a 2009 movie that saw limited release in late December. Most people outside of LA or NYC, of course, wouldn't have gotten a chance to see it until much later.

Like I was saying before, I haven't seen none of those, so you might know better than I. Just noting that the Academy doesn't usually give Best Pic noms to movies from the first half of the previous calendar year. Even last year as the first with ten noms, the only movie nom'd that was released before July 1 was Up. So while those might be deserving, the Academy doesn't have a good history of recognizing those. I guess we'll just have to see.

Have you seen Despicable Me? I liked it well enough, but even in a year with 10 noms, it's just not a good enough movie to get a pick. TS3's the only one of those animated films that has a chance, IMO.

I wouldn't mind seeing Shutter Island getting a nom, but I don't think it will. But like I said, I guess we can revisit this thread next January when noms are announced.

[Chubby]

arrgh I need to see this

[Matthean]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Granted, it's a bit early to say at this point. Most Best Picture potential films are usually released later in the year closer to the nomination process.

Which is why I wouldn't touch making a list of ten films for the Oscars yet because likely more than half of them aren't even released yet. You might be doing good to find 5 that are worthy and to me that's even being kind.

[dawgfan]

Yep - summer is about the big budget popcorn films, winter is about the critical faves. That's a generalization of course, but you're a lot more likely to see films that studios think will be award contenders but not necessarily big money makers released much closer to Christmas.

[Swaggs]

Saw this today and came away very impressed. After the first 15 or 20 minutes I was worried that I wouldn't be able to follow things, but, although it was obviously very complex, it was pretty easy to follow and track back to most of the really important events.

I have a feeling this movie is going to really elevate some young actors (Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Ellen Page, and Tom Hardy) to the next level, as they all seemed to hold their own ground with the DiCaprio. This is the first time I've been able to see Gordon-Levitt and not think of him as the kid from 3rd Rock.

[Groundhog]

Yah, same with me re: Gordon-Levitt, he was solid. Hoping those rumours are true about him being Riddler in the new Batman film.

I think the beauty of Inception is that it wasn't complex in a "what the hell is going on?" kind of way (like, say, Existenz), but more in a ... fundamental way. Like, it's easy to follow the movie (my gf had no problems, and I generally have to explain most movies to her), but it's only as complex as you make it, depending on how far you want to think about what is going on.

[jeff061]

Yeah, Gordon-Levitt was good. Wasn't huge on Ellen Page, I think with her style she may have a limited amount of roles she can really shine in(Juno was perfect).

Dicaprio, you almost wonder just how much of a legend he may end up being 30 or 40 years from now. How many actors have been so consistent starting at such a young age? Like most guys I wasn't a huge fan of most his early work simply due to the roles, but he was still extremely successful.

[Swaggs]

A part of this story reminded me of the Stephen King story called, "The Jaunt. Any one else familiar with this short story and have the same thought. I wouldn't be surprised if the film wasn't partially inspired by it.

The concept of time pssing in an accelerated manner or even living an entire lifetime during the dream (as Cobb and Mal apparently did) and then coming back as a young person to do it again is one of the film points that is really sticking with me.

[Chief Rum]

Saw this for the second time yesterday with friends who hadn't seen it yet.

I looked for the wedding ring thing, and confirmed that the ring was on in the lower levels and not in the "top" level. Amazingly, I dropped the ball in the last scene and didn't look at his hands after they return tot he plane ro when he gets home and spins the top.

I saw it enough that it seems clear to the ring thing isn't some accidental thing like they log into movie sites or what not, so that was probably intended as a message. What the message is, of course, is hard to pin down.

I thought I wouldn't enjoy it as much yesterday, but I still did, even knowing what was going on. Glad to see it hold up. A treat just to see the hallway scene again.

Some new thoughts:

1. It was thrown out there that Cobb didn't stay to watch the top because he didn't want to see what happened. I was watching for this yesterday and that's not true. If it was, he would have spun the top and immediately walked on. But he didn't do that. He spun the top and he was concentrating on it. He was looking at for an answer, just as he had previously. But Caine opened the door out to the yard and called out to the kids. Understandably, the second he heard his kids' voices, Cobb looked away from the top and, smiling, went to go hug his kids. I think Cobb was intending to see what happened with the top and got pulled away by the kids. Whatever Nolan intended there, I don't think the message was that Cobb didn't care if it was reality or not.

2. I know it was thrown out there when we all first saw it (and I agreed) that while it was a visual spectacle, there was a little loss of emotional oomph at the end. I mean, the impact of the final shot was real, but our feelings for Cobb and whether he resolved his issue with getting back to his kids, I got the sense a lot of us didn't really connect much with that.

No, something that occurred to me from the first viewing that I focused more the second time around-- there is an emotional attachment, IMO. But it was not for the "Cobb and his kids" issue, but for the survival of the team. Where does the actual emotional lift happen in the movie? It's not when he gets home to see the kids, it's when he wakes up in the plane and takes in the knowing glances of his team members. It's when he's walking through the airport terminal and sharing knowing looks with them, none of them saying a word to one another. That's the emotional reward-- not the kids. The kids were just faceless indications of Mal around the corner to us--the team was real.

3. In listening to the kids' voices on the phone, I don't know if Nolan did it for purposes fo the narrative or if it was just a logical thing of getting a kid to be intelligible on the phone, but it seemed clear to me the girl sounded older than she appears in Cobb's thoughts or in "reality" at the end of the movie.

4. EVIL THOUGHT #1-- Let's say the top level was a dream. I was just thinking of the logistics of doing that. This is not to say Nolan even considered this. I could very well see the top thing being put in there purely to screw with our minds, without any further thought to how it could possibly happen. But if we assume it's another dream state and thought was put into it. What would have to be true?

Cobb is not the dreamer. He is the subject. And he does not appear to be aware he is dreaming, or at least it's not a fully formed thought in his head. That means the dreamer is in the dream with him. Caine has been offered up as the likely dreamer. I see some problems with this, if it's just one more level to reality (and even if it's not). The only way for Cobb to be trapped alone, blssfully unware, would be if he were in Limbo. I could be wrong, but I didn't get the feeling that was still Limbo he was in. Limbo is a shared consciousness--it would have been impossible for someone to build a world for another person and expect them to accept it and live in it, IMO, and for it to remain in place without crumbling over time, like Cobb and Mal's vision of Limbo was doing at the end.

Ergo, it's not Limbo, so it's someone's active dream state and it's not Cobb. That means someone else has chosen to dream with him and remain with him there. That's a pretty hefty choice to make, to essentially sacrifice your life in essentially a vegetative state that could last forever, depending on how far down you are.

Which brings me to my second point. If it's a dream state, even that level can't be the next below reality. Time doesn't go slow enough one level down. The dreamer would need to eat, to survive, and whatever is going on in the reality would be much closer to impacting the dream state. So that means, if this is indeed some elaborate prison fortress for Cobb's psyche set up by someone else, than it has to be two or three levels down itself--whcih means that they were as much six or seven levels down at the ice fortress. Nuts.

And then there are his team members in that supposed dream state. Anyone else think they are supposed to be projections of Cobb's mind? He even speaks about how Mal is just a shade of what his real wife was, the difference between shade and reality. The team members all seemed very real. So they probably were real. So now we're talking about not only a dedicated dreamer for this dream state, but a full on team also diving on, at least to set it up.

5. EVIL THOUGHT #2-- Let's say again that the "top" level is a dream state. This is the level where Mal committed suicide. Now the first time I saw it, I thought, "What if she's right and she dies and wakes up in some even higher reality, only to find that Cobb has not followed her?"

I didn't think of the ramifications the other way around. We know two things can happen when you die in a dream state--one, if you're on a normal sedative, you "wake up" or ascend to a higher dream state (at least). If you're on the heavy sedative, you cannot wake up, so you fall into Limbo.

My assumption was that Mal ascended to a higher consciousness (or it was reality and she just killed herself, of course). What if they were still on a heavy sedative? Even makes sense, since I already posited in EVIL THOUGHT #1 that if that level is a new dream state, it would have to be two or three levels down, and you can't do that without the heavy sedative.

If they were on a heavy sedative in the top dream state when Mal killed herself, she went back to Limbo. Which means, when Cobb went to Limbo to get Fischer back (and eventually Saito), the Mal he met, the one he told was a shade, who could not have possibly matched the complexity of his own wife, was indeed his own wife and not a projection. As to what then happens when she gets shot by Ariadne, that's subject matter for a whole other post, lol.

6. That old French song they used for the "kick" throughout the movie? Title, in French, "Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien." Translation: "No, I don't regret anything."

Nice touch, Nolan.

[DanGarion]

We saw this over the weekend, and I haven't got to reading what everyone else has had to say yet, but did anyone bring up the fact that his item wasn't actually his, it was his wife's (the top)?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

We saw this over the weekend, and I haven't got to reading what everyone else has had to say yet, but did anyone bring up the fact that his item wasn't actually his, it was his wife's (the top)?

Did you see it at the Block? That's where we went yesterday.

It has occurred to me. I tend tot hink the concept works, wheover spins it, but, yeah, that's tricky.

Here's the fun part--if the top level is indeed a dream state, then the totem was apparently made in the dream state. And who the heck knows what sort of rules apply for totems that themselves aren't actually real?

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by rowech

I think people are trying to read way too much into this movie. It's an action movie set in a crazy world with a guy trying to get past the death of his wife that he feels partially responsible for. That's it. Don't look into it anymore than that other than to figure out whether or not he's dreaming or whether or not he's "out".

Didn't your years of schooling teach you anything, everything you read or watch has to have a theme and has to have meaning...

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Did you see it at the Block? That's where we went yesterday.

It has occurred to me. I tend tot hink the concept works, wheover spins it, but, yeah, that's tricky.

Here's the fun part--if the top level is indeed a dream state, then the totem was apparently made in the dream state. And who the heck knows what sort of rules apply for totems that themselves aren't actually real?

No we never go to the Block, we go to Century Stadium. We paid extra to see it in the xD theater there.

I'm starting to believe that Leo's item was actually his wedding ring as someone mentioned earlier.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DanGarion

No we never go to the Block, we go to Century Stadium. We paid extra to see it in the xD theater there.

I'm starting to believe that Leo's item was actually his wedding ring as someone mentioned earlier.

I like the Century Stadium, but I rarely go over there. Neither the Block nor the Stadium are right near where I am, so if I go over that way, I'll probably end up at the Block simply because I used to live right there and practically walked to the Block whenever I wanted to see a movie.

Century Stadium seems like a good theater to go to.

[FF]

Chief, I saw it again for a 2nd time yesterday as well and just came away with more questions.

My question to you is... do you think he goes another level after 'limbo' where we see him with Mal, Ariadne, and Fischer to save Saito?

I also get the feeling that the wedding ring is merely a red herring

[Toddzilla]

Every time I heard that french song all I could think about was Bull Durham.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by FF

Chief, I saw it again for a 2nd time yesterday as well and just came away with more questions.

My question to you is... do you think he goes another level after 'limbo' where we see him with Mal, Ariadne, and Fischer to save Saito?

I also get the feeling that the wedding ring is merely a red herring

I am still working out the end part with Saito, actually. That's probably the main part left that really confuses me, how that all came to be, how killing themselves that time got them out, why Saito was so much older than Cobb, etc.

I could have the concept of Limbo wrong, but as I understand it, there is only one Limbo. It's some sort of shared consciousness for all of humanity. So by definition, Saito and Cobb had to be in the same Limbo. I can only guess it took some time for Cobb to locate where Saito's imagination put him, and to also think that perhaps Limbo's rules with respect to the passing of time is more malleable than the other levels--maybe time can run at different speeds in different parts of Limbo, depending on the dreamer.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I am still working out the end part with Saito, actually. That's probably the main part left that really confuses me, how that all came to be, how killing themselves that time got them out, why Saito was so much older than Cobb, etc.

I could have the concept of Limbo wrong, but as I understand it, there is only one Limbo. It's some sort of shared consciousness for all of humanity. So by definition, Saito and Cobb had to be in the same Limbo. I can only guess it took some time for Cobb to locate where Saito's imagination put him, and to also think that perhaps Limbo's rules with respect to the passing of time is more malleable than the other levels--maybe time can run at different speeds in different parts of Limbo, depending on the dreamer.

Cobb came in and out of Liimbo twice. The first time he came back he would have been kicked to level one, where he drowned in the van. That would have thrown him into the second limbo. Who knows how long Cobb stayed in the first Limbo before he was sent to the second. But when he was sent to the second Limbo, he'd have started at the same age while Saito would have been there a lot longer than he was and would have aged.

That's my weak analysis of it anyway.

[Butter]

Saw this last night... and just, wow. I think the movie was so intricately built, that it can mean something different for each individual viewing it. For those that don't like to think too much during a movie, at the end everything's real and he finally made it. For those that like to pick things apart, at the end he's still dreaming and he's never going to make it back to reality. And under that possibility, there are even more possible resolutions as to why he's still there and what it all means.

Just an unbelievable film by a master craftsman. Between this, The Dark Knight, and Memento (among others), Nolan has reached Kubrickian levels of respect for me, making any of his projects an automatic watch.

I mean, I saw "Eyes Wide Shut" in the theater for God's sake.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

I mean, I saw "Eyes Wide Shut" in the theater for God's sake.

I did too. And I regretted it.

[jeff061]

Nolan seems to not be a perfectionist to a neurotic degree like Kubrick was. Which is good. We'll get more than one movie out of him every couple decades.

[rowech]

Just got back from watching it the second time...two things I noticed this time around and then my final verdict.....

1) When Leo meets Caine to set something up, Caine is in France, yet at the end of the movie, he is not. He is in LA. (I'd also love to know what all the stuff on the chalkboard behind Caine actuall says...it's all in French)


2. There is one point in time in the movie that Leo doesn't get to see the result of him spinning the top. After waking from the dream state in the underground sleeping chamber he runs to the bathroom, looks in a mirror, splashes water on his face, spins the top but it doesn't spin properly. He fumbles with it and then Saito comes in to ask if everything is alright.

What are these two important to me...

It is very clear to me that Michael Caine set all this up and the only thing that is "real" is when we see them wake up on the plane and that point forward. The first time Leo goes to sleep is on the plane and we do not see this. So what appears to be "reality" is in fact Leo's first level.

Him being with Saito within Saito's dreams, meeting with Caine, meeting Paige, assembling his team, all the way to going to Dubai, all the way into the sleep chamber is all part of this first level. He moves to his own personal second level when he falls asleep in the sleep chamber. Willingly falls asleep because he is observing how good the sedative is. He "wakes up" from this goes to the bathroom, water, top, fumble, and he never sees the result of the top spinning because of Saito's interruption. They had to stop him from seeing the result because then he would know he was dreaming.

So then every level in the movie from that point on is actually one level past what it appears to be. All of the characters within the dream worlds are actively pusing Leo to the carthasis...the one he has to believe that he developed with his own thoughts. I felt this way the first time I saw it and watching it again just made it even stronger. Everytime he was ready to give up, someone suggested something or someone in order to push him farther. That way the idea appeared to be his when in fact it wasn't. Fisher's carthasis was nothing but a driving force to keep Leo going down the levels...he thought he was doing a job. He was having the job done on him. All the way down to the final jump with Ellen Page's character and himself. The final level, all the way down to his own guarded secret...the absolute guilt of the inception.

Everything gets kicked back up, they wake up on the plane, but Fischer was never the subject...it was always Leo.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

[Pyser]

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Pyser

That's awesome.

Only hits home more that the name of of the song is "I don't regret anything", and that was a key theme in the relationship between Cobb and Mal.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by rowech

Just got back from watching it the second time...two things I noticed this time around and then my final verdict.....

1) When Leo meets Caine to set something up, Caine is in France, yet at the end of the movie, he is not. He is in LA. (I'd also love to know what all the stuff on the chalkboard behind Caine actuall says...it's all in French)


2. There is one point in time in the movie that Leo doesn't get to see the result of him spinning the top. After waking from the dream state in the underground sleeping chamber he runs to the bathroom, looks in a mirror, splashes water on his face, spins the top but it doesn't spin properly. He fumbles with it and then Saito comes in to ask if everything is alright.

What are these two important to me...

It is very clear to me that Michael Caine set all this up and the only thing that is "real" is when we see them wake up on the plane and that point forward. The first time Leo goes to sleep is on the plane and we do not see this. So what appears to be "reality" is in fact Leo's first level.

Him being with Saito within Saito's dreams, meeting with Caine, meeting Paige, assembling his team, all the way to going to Dubai, all the way into the sleep chamber is all part of this first level. He moves to his own personal second level when he falls asleep in the sleep chamber. Willingly falls asleep because he is observing how good the sedative is. He "wakes up" from this goes to the bathroom, water, top, fumble, and he never sees the result of the top spinning because of Saito's interruption. They had to stop him from seeing the result because then he would know he was dreaming.

So then every level in the movie from that point on is actually one level past what it appears to be. All of the characters within the dream worlds are actively pusing Leo to the carthasis...the one he has to believe that he developed with his own thoughts. I felt this way the first time I saw it and watching it again just made it even stronger. Everytime he was ready to give up, someone suggested something or someone in order to push him farther. That way the idea appeared to be his when in fact it wasn't. Fisher's carthasis was nothing but a driving force to keep Leo going down the levels...he thought he was doing a job. He was having the job done on him. All the way down to the final jump with Ellen Page's character and himself. The final level, all the way down to his own guarded secret...the absolute guilt of the inception.

Everything gets kicked back up, they wake up on the plane, but Fischer was never the subject...it was always Leo.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Pretty interesting hypothesis.

The second time through, I, too, noticed that Cobb failed to finish spinning the top on that scene, and it also occurred to me the head trip factor if that sleep chamber was used as some kind of separation from reality point. Although I certainly didn't think it out as far as you did here.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That's awesome.

Only hits home more that the name of of the song is "I don't regret anything", and that was a key theme in the relationship between Cobb and Mal.

And it was sung by Edith Piaf, played by Marion Cotillard (Mal) when she won her Oscar. Christopher Nolan almost changed the song because he felt the connection would be too distracting for audiences (just slightly overestimating the majority of filmgoers) but Hans Zimmer convinced him to keep it.

Speaking of connections we missed, how did we not see that this was essentially a remake of a previous movie?

[sovereignstar]

Not the largest soundtrack collector at all, but I love the score in the movie.

[Sgran]

Finally got to see this tonight. Here are my scrambled musings:
1. The score thing is a neat trick, but the sound editing at the end of the movie is barbaric. The last 45 minutes felt like I was being audibly bludgeoned. Couldn't they have taken it down a bit? Related to that: the winter fortress part needed to be edited out. Eames' commando scenes were boring by that point, taking us away from the interesting parts.
2. The movie is about Leo being able to "face" his children. With this in mind, I'm more and more inclined to believe that Caine was behind the entire rescue mission of Leo from Limbo. Leo didn't want o let go of Mal. Caine sent in Paige (a real person) to make Leo face his feelings. She's there to talk him off the ledge, to get him to return from a place where he exists with Mal. This explanation, however, does not explain why he needs Saito, unless that's all background dressing to get him to believe that the entire scenario is real. Consistency with the theme of the movie suggests that it is actually Leo who is being Incepted with an idea (by Caine, presumably).
3. Someone help me out: how are we introduced to the chemist? Does Leo already know him?
4. More fuel for the theory that the whole thing is for Leo comes from Mal's speech where she suggests that Leo is actually the delusional one. She references the shadowy paramilitary that is hunting him down. His whole chase scene in Africa (?) has a dreamlike quality with all the near misses and narrow squeezes.
5. What about the pinwheel? Is that Leo's?
6. Maybe Saito shoots Leo?

I apologize in advance for the typos; It's 2AM and I need some sleep.