Paris (And Now Mali)(And Now Orlando)

[stevew]

So anyone have any details as to what the plan was here? Attempt to distract the police with 4 individual suicide attacks and then move on the concert hall for maximum casulties? They must have known the theatre had really pisspoor security.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Izulde

147 dead at Garissa University in Kenya as well, though that appears to be a separate group.

...and 7 months ago.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Izulde

147 dead at Garissa University in Kenya as well, though that appears to be a separate group.

That was 8 months ago

[stevew]

Originally Posted by Izulde

147 dead at Garissa University in Kenya as well, though that appears to be a separate group.

Sportsdigs had this story 7 months ago

[cartman]

Originally Posted by stevew

So anyone have any details as to what the plan was here? Attempt to distract the police with 4 individual suicide attacks and then move on the concert hall for maximum casulties? They must have known the theatre had really pisspoor security.

Evidently two of the suicide bombers were trying to get into the France-Germany match, and blew themselves up when security detected the bombs.

[Izulde]

Yeah, sorry about that guys. Didn't check the date - just saw that it was going viral now, no doubt as a reaction to Paris.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by stevew

So anyone have any details as to what the plan was here? Attempt to distract the police with 4 individual suicide attacks and then move on the concert hall for maximum casulties? They must have known the theatre had really pisspoor security.

Not sure you can blame theatre security... I doubt there's a concert hall in the world equipped to protect against assailants with machine guns and grenades. Maybe back in the day when like Hell's Angels were providing security at outdoor festivals.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by cartman

Evidently two of the suicide bombers were trying to get into the France-Germany match, and blew themselves up when security detected the bombs.

Good work by security, that could have been really bad if those explosions happened in the crowd.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

Looks like you may very well lose this bet.

Given the way many of these types of discussions go, we may want to define what we mean by "refugee". If someone is a resident of a country, goes to another country for terrorist training and then comes back to the country where they reside, are we calling them refugees? Yes, I would call them a helluva of lot of other things but refugees would not be one of them.

[JPhillips]

This.

From Charles Pierce.

It is long past time for the oligarchies of the Gulf states to stop paying protection to the men in the suicide belts. Their societies are stunted and parasitic. The main job of the elites there is to find enough foreign workers to ensla…er…indenture to do all the real work. The example of Qatar and the interesting business plan through which that country is building the facilities for the 2022 World Cup is instructive here. Roughly the same labor-management relationship exists for the people who clean the hotel rooms and who serve the drinks. In Qatar, for people who come from elsewhere to work, passports have been known to disappear into thin air. These are the societies that profit from terrible and tangled web of causation and violence that played out on the streets of Paris. These are the people who buy their safety with the blood of innocents far away.

It’s not like this is any kind of secret. In 2010, thanks to WikiLeaks, we learned that the State Department, under the direction of then-Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, knew full well where the money for foreign terrorism came from. It came from countries and not from a faith. It came from sovereign states and not from an organized religion. It came from politicians and dictators, not from clerics, at least not directly. It was paid to maintain a political and social order, not to promulgate a religious revival or to launch a religious war. Religion was the fuel, the ammonium nitrate and the diesel fuel. Authoritarian oligarchy built the bomb. As long as people are dying in Paris, nobody important is dying in Doha or Riyadh.

It’s time for this to stop. It’s time to be pitiless against the bankers and against the people who invest in murder to assure their own survival in power. Assets from these states should be frozen, all over the west. Money trails should be followed, wherever they lead. People should go to jail, in every country in the world. It should be done state-to-state. Stop funding the murder of our citizens and you can have your money back. Maybe. If we’re satisfied that you’ll stop doing it. And, it goes without saying, but we’ll say it anyway – not another bullet will be sold to you, let alone advanced warplanes, until this act gets cleaned up to our satisfaction. If that endangers your political position back home, that’s your problem, not ours. You are no longer trusted allies. Complain, and your diplomats will be going home. Complain more loudly, and your diplomats will be investigated and, if necessary, detained. Retaliate, and you do not want to know what will happen, but it will done with cold, reasoned and, yes, pitiless calculation. It will not be a blind punch. You will not see it coming. It will not be an attack on your faith. It will be an attack on how you conduct your business as sovereign states in a world full of sovereign states.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by molson

It's not getting much media but it looks like ISIS also hit Beirut Thursday, killing 43 and injuring hundreds. And then there's the Russian plane crash which they've taken credit for and no government has disagreed with that. This is quite the wave of violence

CNN mentioned it and listed the total dead from ISIS attacks all over the world in teh last ten days at over like 450 people or somesuch.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

This.

From Charles Pierce.

Get as up in arms made as yo want, but we've done this with allies for a long time, weaponizing them, paying them, and giving them good relations so that terrorists attack them instead of us, and fight local wars we want, but don;t want to move troops into ourselves. From Israel to Uganda, we've done this for a long time. All so nothing important happens in our borders. We may not be the ones sponsoring it like Qatar and folks may be, but we have the same world view they have - basic view that our people in the borders are worth more than those people out there. As long as they bomb Israel, and not here, we'll shrug our heads, wring our hands, say some platitudes, and then slip Israel some cash or weapons.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

Given the way many of these types of discussions go, we may want to define what we mean by "refugee". If someone is a resident of a country, goes to another country for terrorist training and then comes back to the country where they reside, are we calling them refugees? Yes, I would call them a helluva of lot of other things but refugees would not be one of them.

I guess the point was that one of the idiots came into Europe with the refugees, hence keeping them out is the solution. I personally would not want to be save while at the same time essentially condemning thousands to either death or live in quasi-captivity in no-mans-land. Long term, the only solution is to try and improve the situation in Syria and elsewhere. Admittedly i have no idea how, but fact is that we would not have mios of people on the run and willing to endure incredible hardship and tremendous humiliation (and leaving behind their whole existence) if they did not have a damn good reason to do so.

People are so kidding themselves thinking that there aren´t a score of other ways to get into a country if you want to, especially if backed by what is a highly resourceful group backing you. Unless you go all cold-war-GDR, all you need is a pair of good hiking boots and maybe a phone with GPS. Is it worth forcing those madmen to work a little harder if it also means essentially giving up on humanist values and punishing (again) mios of people who are as likely to do sth like this as 99.9% of the population ? And is it really safer to have them slip into the country rather than at least having some data on them ? The System did not succeed this time, but there have been multiple instances where those people travelled in the open and got caught or were monitored and an attack got prevented. Somehow i do not see this happening if they realize (and adapt to) that they need to do it even more under-the-radar (and those are 99% people, too. They want to live a regular life until they strike. Which is why some sort of data-trail exists)

I am not saying that it wouldnt be nice to actually have a plan here, just that the key IMO has to be adressing the root of the problem. And acting as if killing some eccentric figure-head is a victory does not help. (The beheading freak) It isnt, you just sell it as such because it makes the uniformed public happy for a time.
As an aside: the fact that everybody in Government was acting shocked at the wave of immigrants is so laughable, because if you were willing to inform yourself you knew it months beforehand as a layman. Heck, there were lectures at my university over a year ago that laid out pretty much exactly what has happened.

[Dutch]

I guess the point was that one of the idiots came into Europe with the refugees, hence keeping them out is the solution. I personally would not want to be save while at the same time essentially condemning thousands to either death or live in quasi-captivity in no-mans-land. Long term, the only solution is to try and improve the situation in Syria and elsewhere. Admittedly i have no idea how, but fact is that we would not have mios of people on the run and willing to endure incredible hardship and tremendous humiliation (and leaving behind their whole existence) if they did not have a damn good reason to do so.

We have to understand though that if things in Syria were good, none of these people would have left. Because that's the culture they want. When they go to Europe, most will self-segregate themselves from the European cultures and that will breed extremism (as we've seen all across Europe).

When we maintain/enforce our Western immigration quotas, you only get the immigrants that *want* to be in these western countries, that will consider integration with this host nation...that will want to call themselves German, or French, or British, or Spanish one day.

Trying to save the world by allowing the entire world to live in Europe (or America) doesn't enhance our values, but breaks them down...because our values are most respected by our citizens...and least respected by people who would never have come to Europe or the USA if their own homelands were "good enough".

Strict enforcement of quotas is so important. It's not racist to enforce your own laws...it's for safety and security and financial prosperity. Be careful when you try so hard to be "nice" to everybody because the reality is that not everybody wants to be nice back.

In the meanwhile, France has a right to defend itself and I expect France to want to do something about this cancer in the Arab world. And I expect the USA to support their efforts. I expect the Middle East to support their efforts as well.

[Thomkal]

Sorry if I missed it in the thread, but the various news networks are reporting that an American is amongst the dead in Paris-23 year old student studying in Paris, from Cal Tech I think.

[Ben E Lou]

CNN is reporting that an "organized group" of terrorists were smuggled into Europe with refugees from Syria and that at least one of those was part of the Paris attack.

[Julio Riddols]

Then its real neat that we plan to take in a shit ton of refugees from Syria. I'd be all over them ASAP, making sure there isn't a similar plan potentially getting ready to take off here.

[Dutch]

Our security agents are saying there is no way to vet them all....

Again, immigrants and refugees are two different people. One group wants to leave their country the other loves their country but is forced to leave.

In this day and age, we really need to focus out care and concern on Americans and Europeans need to do the same. It's a war against Western Culture.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

CNN is reporting that an "organized group" of terrorists were smuggled into Europe with refugees from Syria and that at least one of those was part of the Paris attack.

https://www.facebook.com/benelou/pos...05825262887114

[Dutch]

I'll be a good Samaritan during times of peace and a Levite during times of war. That's just my survival instincts kicking in.

[Alf]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'll be a good Samaritan during times of peace and a Levite during times of war. That's just my survival instincts kicking in.

Can't say it better.

[bob]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Our security agents are saying there is no way to vet them all

If you cant vet them, and now we have had issues, i would think a country's responsibility is to their citizens, not refugees.

[Coffee Warlord]

And now ISIS just released a propaganda video threatening attacks on Russia, of all places.

I could easily see Putin absolutely leveling all of Syria/Middle East if something like Paris went down in Moscow.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

And now ISIS just released a propaganda video threatening attacks on Russia, of all places.

I could easily see Putin absolutely leveling all of Syria/Middle East if something like Paris went down in Moscow.

Well, obviously they don't follow human rights and political correctness quite like the west does, so I wouldn't be surprised if he showed his muscles. But they are so unprepared it's not even funny. The only experience they have dealing with these dudes is from the 80's...and the only real options they have are carpet bombing.

It's better than nothing though. Better not hit any of our guys on the ground...

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

And now ISIS just released a propaganda video threatening attacks on Russia, of all places.

I could easily see Putin absolutely leveling all of Syria/Middle East if something like Paris went down in Moscow.

That really seems like a tactical blunder, or a distraction.

[ColtCrazy]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

That really seems like a tactical blunder, or a distraction.

Agreed. Would be a bad move on their part. Putin would have no trouble hunting them to the ends of the Earth.

[JPhillips]

Given that a much stronger USSR couldn't stop the Mujaheddin when they were on their southern border even before we started arming them, don't overestimate Putin's ability to hunt down ISIS.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by whomario

...People are so kidding themselves thinking that there aren´t a score of other ways to get into a country if you want to, especially if backed by what is a highly resourceful group backing you. Unless you go all cold-war-GDR, all you need is a pair of good hiking boots and maybe a phone with GPS...

But why make it so easy on them? Just shipping thousands (or more) of "refugees" into any sovereign nation without knowing who you importing is national suicide.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Our security agents are saying there is no way to vet them all....

Again, immigrants and refugees are two different people. One group wants to leave their country the other loves their country but is forced to leave.

In this day and age, we really need to focus out care and concern on Americans and Europeans need to do the same. It's a war against Western Culture.

this

[JPhillips]

National suicide is way overblown. Remember that France has four or five times as many murders in a year as the terrorist attack.

[cartman]

And there are more and more reports coming out that the bulk of the attackers were French and/or Belgian citizens.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

National suicide is way overblown. Remember that France has four or five times as many murders in a year as the terrorist attack.

Well, then let's as many refugees in as possible. I mean, isn't it better to die by a suicide bomb than a gun?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Well, then let's as many refugees in as possible. I mean, isn't it better to die by a suicide bomb than a gun?

Why not just kill everyone that looks suspicious?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Why not just kill everyone that looks suspicious?

You left out "acts" suspicious, which I'd probably put first in fact.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I guess there's a photo from the theater that's making the rounds (or will be)

It's one of the most graphic pictures I've seen in a long time but at the same time it does feel important enough & impactful enough to warrant sharing.

I'm going to spoiler it because it's ... "graphic" isn't really sufficient IMO.

Spoiler

[Thomkal]

I'm surprised that they let some one take a picture of that.

Elsewhere in Minnesota, someone is not in touch with reality...and it cost him his election.

Minnesota State Representative Candidate Withdraws From Race After Saying ‘ISIS is Not Evil’ | TheBlaze.com

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

I'm surprised that let some one take a picture of that.

My guess is that it's a crime scene/official photo.

[Julio Riddols]

That photo is more gruesome than anything I've ever seen. Just people at a concert trying to have a good time, forced to live their last moments in horrifying fear, never to see their loved ones again. No chance to say goodbye. Watching people dying around them, knowing they are in line for slaughter. I hope they all went out as painlessly as possible when their time came.

This is worse than animal behavior. Animals do what they do for survival. Only humans are capable of such absolute mindless brutality.

[RainMaker]

That photo. Wow.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Julio Riddols

Then its real neat that we plan to take in a shit ton of refugees from Syria. I'd be all over them ASAP, making sure there isn't a similar plan potentially getting ready to take off here.

I don't get why we are doing this. Is it just so some people in the suburbs can feel better about themselves? Seems like a high risk no reward situation.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

My guess is that it's a crime scene/official photo.

Yeah I think so too-I hope they find whoever leaked it and fire him/her. I'm just grateful that it was done at enough of a distance to not see their faces or injuries. The families\friends can probably identify their loved ones in some cases though and that's just horrible.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by cartman

And there are more and more reports coming out that the bulk of the attackers were French and/or Belgian citizens.

This is what I find much more fascinating to think about than the refugee discussion. What is the West going to do with their own citizens who might ISIS sympathizers?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

This is what I find much more fascinating to think about than the refugee discussion. What is the West going to do with their own citizens who might ISIS sympathizers?

At least two rounds in the back of their heads would be a good fucking start.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

What is the West going to do with their own citizens who might ISIS sympathizers?

Sounds like treason to me.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Yeah I think so too-I hope they find whoever leaked it and fire him/her. I'm just grateful that it was done at enough of a distance to not see their faces or injuries. The families\friends can probably identify their loved ones in some cases though and that's just horrible.

While I get this sentiment -- maybe we need to see pictures like this to see how bad it is. Just like when people finally saw what was actually happening at the concentration camps. Can you imagine the horror of something like Sandy Hook? People will say such things play to emotions but maybe in a world where we are becoming less and less outwardly connected to each other, maybe we need such things to make sure we are still human.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

Just like when people finally saw what was actually happening at the concentration camps.

That is, fwiw, exactly the parallel that came to mind even before I saw the pictures ... courtesy of a discussion someone started about shielding their children from the story with cartoons.

Yeah, my response was every bit as predictable as you would imagine.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

That is, fwiw, exactly the parallel that came to mind even before I saw the pictures ... courtesy of a discussion someone started about shielding their children from the story with cartoons.

Yeah, my response was every bit as predictable as you would imagine.

I was 13 when I saw a picture from the Hillsborough disaster on the front page of the local paper where people were pressed up against a fence and you could tell two of the people were either dead or would be soon. It has never left me and I'm not sure I've seen it since that morning.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by rowech

While I get this sentiment -- maybe we need to see pictures like this to see how bad it is. Just like when people finally saw what was actually happening at the concentration camps. Can you imagine the horror of something like Sandy Hook? People will say such things play to emotions but maybe in a world where we are becoming less and less outwardly connected to each other, maybe we need such things to make sure we are still human.

Agreed!

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Sounds like treason to me.

Yep. If you favor the Caliphate and Jihad over any recognized nation state, you are an enemy of that state.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

At least two rounds in the back of their heads would be a good fucking start.

As long as we shoot them before they kill 129 people, I am all for this.