Invasion of Ukraine

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I've seen a small handful of people in the US that are cheering on Russia and firmly believe Putin is fighting the deep state baby eaters in Ukraine.

From what I've seen, a very large number of Q'Annoners are pro-Putin and anti-Ukraine. I had to go on Facebook today to get to a link and I was a little surprised.

Edit, sorry but it's so crazy I have to share. This guy has barely ever left a 50 mile radius of his hometown. The image doesn't seem to be working so adding the link as well.



https://imgur.com/a/E9Q6z5w

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I've seen a small handful of people in the US that are cheering on Russia and firmly believe Putin is fighting the deep state baby eaters in Ukraine.

I know this may come as a shock, but the most popular right wing commentator in this country has routinely praised Putin and the leader, kingmaker, and cult of personality former President continues to praise him.

SI

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I've seen a small handful of people in the US that are cheering on Russia and firmly believe Putin is fighting the deep state baby eaters in Ukraine.

I had someone ask me if I'd ever seen "RT" and I'm like yeah, of course, and he's like, yeah, they are really balanced and straight shooters, they don' t have all this political bs, they just have the facts, and I'm like, you know that's state owned, Russian propaganda, and they give the pov that the Russian govt wants you to have? And he's like like, well it's no different than the US news then, but it's better, and I'said, yeah, but the difference is that we have freedom of press here. So basically, this guy didn't think that FN was accurate enough and that RT was better. Propaganda works and it works great when one foreign political party has people shilling the point of view of your dear leader.

[Solecismic]

I'd hesitate to connect Trump to praise of Putin's current actions. Trump is all about himself, yes. He has no qualms about criticizing the current administration, which frankly people on both sides do with regularity. This is an ugly quality. But he isn't pro-Russia nuking the world.

I think this is an excellent example of what I was writing about. If we persist in this hate - this desire to connect people we hate to the worst the world has ever seen - then the politicians and the otherwise irrelevant personalities in the media win. If we give them power to make us hate, then we stop questioning the loss of civility or reason.

Is that a world even worth saving? Don't mistake this for praise of Putin, but maybe that puppet in the Russia media has a point, for all the wrong reasons. It's not a world without Russia that isn't worth having. It's a world without freedom or civility that's not worth having.

[RainMaker]

He illegally withheld military aid unless the country framed his political opponent's son. Surrounded himself with individuals with strong Russian ties, including a man who was convicted of laundering bribes to help halt Ukrainian independence. A man who ignored Russia's meddling in our elections. This on top of the endless praise heaped on Putin, even going so far as to state he trusted Putin more than his own country's intelligence.

As Russia's plan goes tits up and they become a pariah around the world, there will be A LOT of backtracking. We're already seeing the talking heads and politicians do a 180 in recent days. And a number of others willing to carry water for these people for some reason.

It's important to remember who those people are. You don't get to slink back after spending years propping up and placating that psychopath.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I'd hesitate to connect Trump to praise of Putin's current actions. Trump is all about himself, yes. He has no qualms about criticizing the current administration, which frankly people on both sides do with regularity. This is an ugly quality. But he isn't pro-Russia nuking the world.

I think this is an excellent example of what I was writing about. If we persist in this hate - this desire to connect people we hate to the worst the world has ever seen - then the politicians and the otherwise irrelevant personalities in the media win. If we give them power to make us hate, then we stop questioning the loss of civility or reason.

Is that a world even worth saving? Don't mistake this for praise of Putin, but maybe that puppet in the Russia media has a point, for all the wrong reasons. It's not a world without Russia that isn't worth having. It's a world without freedom or civility that's not worth having.

Yes, yes, both sides. A world without civility isn't worth having - that's definitely Hallmark worthy and definitely not bringing out the tone policing.

Trump is definitely a narcissist. And he likely was saying something self serving. And he took his time to praise Putin because it was self-serving. Is he pro nuking the world? Nope. That's one hell of a giant goalpost move. I said he was praising Putin even after the invasion, WHICH HE DID (link below).

I'm pretty sure even Putin isn't pro nuking the world: to him, it's just a tool in the tool kit. But Trump was quick to praise him for being smart while even a number of people in his own party were quick to distance themselves from Putin and literally all of the Western world including typically neutral countries like Switzerland or non-NATO Sweden and Finland (who, yeah, they have no love for Russia but they've avoided NATO so far) are all lining up in opposition.

I'm kindof getting tired when someone else keeps putting words in my mouth when it's pretty clear what I said and I can even quote it. It's like a few inches up on the page. The pearl clutching, false centrist, arbiter-of-decency rings really hollow when you have to move the argument all the way to "well, Trump isn't pro-Russia nuking the world". But I'm not the one who had to find the new midway point of the argument at "but at least he doesn't want the end of humanity" to get a fulcrum just to get in a snide "both sides" arguments.

Link mentioned above where all other living former Presidents of both parties forcefully condemn while Trump, the most recent and most influential, does not:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russia-...-jimmy-carter/

SI

[PilotMan]

It's the voices of the right wing media, from Bannon to Carlson, because those are the people who are continuing to emphasize and elevate those beliefs.

At least four times this week, Russian news reports have featured translated clips of Tucker Carlson or his guest Tulsi Gabbard, a former Democratic U.S. representative…. At 8 p.m. on Sunday, a primetime review of the week’s news presented by Dmitry Kiselev, a bombastic Putin favorite, featured remarks from the opening monologue of Carlson’s February 17 show, in which the American commentator trashed Ukraine’s government.
An hour later, the evening news program on Russia’s main state television channel used a longer excerpt from the same Carlson monologue and shaped its own report to amplify the Fox News host’s attack on a Democrat. In the original Fox News broadcast, Carlson had suggested that Sen. Richard Blumenthal, a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee who worked to arm Ukraine with Javelin anti-tank missiles, was only doing so because of donations from American defense contractors like Raytheon.
On Wednesday night, just hours before Putin ordered the attack on Ukraine to begin, two excerpts from Carlson’s most recent program were featured in Russian state television’s 8 p.m. and 9 p.m. news broadcasts…. Carlson’s comments were so welcome in Moscow that an excerpt from that rant with Russian subtitles was quickly produced by the Russian-language service of RT, the government-funded network formerly known as Russia Today.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I'd hesitate to connect Trump to praise of Putin's current actions. Trump is all about himself, yes. He has no qualms about criticizing the current administration, which frankly people on both sides do with regularity. This is an ugly quality. But he isn't pro-Russia nuking the world.

I think this is an excellent example of what I was writing about. If we persist in this hate - this desire to connect people we hate to the worst the world has ever seen - then the politicians and the otherwise irrelevant personalities in the media win. If we give them power to make us hate, then we stop questioning the loss of civility or reason.

Is that a world even worth saving? Don't mistake this for praise of Putin, but maybe that puppet in the Russia media has a point, for all the wrong reasons. It's not a world without Russia that isn't worth having. It's a world without freedom or civility that's not worth having.

But Jim, he did praise Putin. Nobody made that up. The praise came out of his mouth under his own free will. He has doubled and tripled down on the praise since the initial comments on Wednesday.

There is no reason to try and connect the words that Trump has said since Wednesday to Putin's actions today. I will wait for his comments on those. However, there is also no reason to not acknowledge that Trump praised Putin's actions up to today. Actions that the world in general find abhorrent Whether he did it as a way to criticize the current administration is irrelevant IMO. He can do the latter without doing the former. The "hate" ( I think that word is too strong in this case) is based on his commentary lacking civility and reason.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

I'd hesitate to connect Trump to praise of Putin's current actions. Trump is all about himself, yes. He has no qualms about criticizing the current administration, which frankly people on both sides do with regularity. This is an ugly quality. But he isn't pro-Russia nuking the world.

I think this is an excellent example of what I was writing about. If we persist in this hate - this desire to connect people we hate to the worst the world has ever seen - then the politicians and the otherwise irrelevant personalities in the media win. If we give them power to make us hate, then we stop questioning the loss of civility or reason.

Is that a world even worth saving? Don't mistake this for praise of Putin, but maybe that puppet in the Russia media has a point, for all the wrong reasons. It's not a world without Russia that isn't worth having. It's a world without freedom or civility that's not worth having.

I'm all for looking at both sides and trying to come up with a balanced view. I try to see the nuance to positions & differences, and try put them in context with degree, scale, significance etc.

It's clear to me that Trump does not get that grey area. He is a narcissist, he has shown it's all about him, etc. etc. This isn't a one time blip, it's a consistent pattern.

It's okay to hate some people. It's okay to not be civil to some people. I'm all for ignoring and not interacting with them (but obviously Trump is hard to ignore with his platform). Child abusers are at the top of my list. Trump is 2-3 notches down. Die-hard Trump supporters, I don't hate other than maybe the most extremists (but will take that on case by case basis). Unlike some of the more vocal folks on this board, I think 80-20 democrats probably don't hate die-hard Trump supporters and can be civil to them.

It's a world without freedom or civility that's not worth having.

A little too melodramatic for me. Taken literally, I agree. But we are nowhere close to that point.

[NobodyHere]

I'm okay forgoing a little civility against an invading army

People are using Google Maps to change the Russian Consulates into “Public Bathrooms”.
This is terrible and you definitely SHOULD NOT do this. pic.twitter.com/EEa4Mme6Ri

— Walter Masterson (@waltermasterson) February 27, 2022

[Edward64]

Thought this was cute

Ukraine war: St Javelin and the missile that has become a symbol of Ukraine's resistance | Euronews

Having started as a meme, St Javelin of Ukraine, as she is now known, is becoming an increasingly familiar sight on social media and elsewhere.

In her most recent iteration, the halo encircling her head is not the radiant gold you would expect from centuries of religious iconography but rather the blue and yellow of the Ukrainian flag. Her flowing robes are green, reminiscent of khaki army fatigues. Rather than joined in prayer, her hands instead cradle a FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missile launcher.

The US-made, shoulder-fired weapon is being widely seen as pivotal to Ukraine's defence against Russia's ongoing invasion - and has been taken to the hearts of both fearful Ukrainians trapped inside the besieged country and the diaspora watching in horror outside its borders.

[Edward64]

Supposedly 3+ mile Russian convoy headed towards Kyiv (have to start using the Ukrainian spelling). Reported by multiple sources.

Have to believe NATO advisors are on the ground with Ukraine command and will have a plan for this (really hope so).

Reddit - Dive into anything

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I'm all for looking at both sides and trying to come up with a balanced view. I try to see the nuance to positions & differences, and try put them in context with degree, scale, significance etc.

It's clear to me that Trump does not get that grey area. He is a narcissist, he has shown it's all about him, etc. etc. This isn't a one time blip, it's a consistent pattern.

It's okay to hate some people. It's okay to not be civil to some people. I'm all for ignoring and not interacting with them (but obviously Trump is hard to ignore with his platform). Child abusers are at the top of my list. Trump is 2-3 notches down. Die-hard Trump supporters, I don't hate other than maybe the most extremists (but will take that on case by case basis). Unlike some of the more vocal folks on this board, I think 80-20 democrats probably don't hate die-hard Trump supporters and can be civil to them.


A little too melodramatic for me. Taken literally, I agree. But we are nowhere close to that point.

I'm referring to the online world, the "news" outlets, politicians. It needs to change.

I'm not telling you not to post or to move discussion to even more political items. I'm telling you this lack of civility is how we get from point A to point B. I am not anyone's enemy here.

Trump is never going to conform. At this point, he's a bigger liability for the Republicans than even that crazy congresswoman from Georgia. But he is not what the propaganda outlets claim he is. He doesn't have the attention or focus necessary to plot much of anything.

This "praise" is not praise nor endorsement - he's throwing out the view that Putin's invasion will work because the Democrats are too weak not to let him get away with it. He's praising himself, not Putin. Parsing his quoting of the word "smart" is simply saying that Biden isn't and Trump is - it's a slam on Biden. We've seen him do it 100 times in exactly the same way.

Still very unhelpful and inappropriate. I didn't vote for him in either 2016 or 2020 and I won't do it in 2024, should he decide to run again. But we got Trump because civility is so rare out there these days. And we'll get far worse if we don't learn from that lesson.

[RainMaker]

How is pointing out things the former President said and did "unhelpful and inappropriate"? He said them. He did them. They were direct too, not coded behind vague wording. And he has stood by what he said. You don't need to come up with excuses or alternative explanations. I don't know how much clearer he can be in his beliefs.

And no, Trump didn't come to power because of a lack of "civility". It's just an excuse your side uses because he does stuff you can't defend on merits. A way to get others to stop criticizing things you don't want them to.

What's uncivil is supporting psychopaths who will murder innocent people for money, power, or their own personal ego.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Supposedly 3+ mile Russian convoy headed towards Kyiv (have to start using the Ukrainian spelling). Reported by multiple sources.

Have to believe NATO advisors are on the ground with Ukraine command and will have a plan for this (really hope so).

Reddit - Dive into anything

Vehicles bunched up like that with no air support. They are begging to be wiped out.

Looks like Belarus is sending in troops. Going to be real tough for Ukraine to hold on.

[RainMaker]

The ruble is down 41% against the USD today. Inflation nearing 70%. That is a country teetering on the verge of complete economic collapse.

Either that leads to Putin "resigning due to poor health" or him doing something really bad.

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

How is pointing out things the former President said and did "unhelpful and inappropriate"? He said them. He did them. They were direct too, not coded behind vague wording. And he has stood by what he said. You don't need to come up with excuses or alternative explanations. I don't know how much clearer he can be in his beliefs.

And no, Trump didn't come to power because of a lack of "civility". It's just an excuse your side uses because he does stuff you can't defend on merits. A way to get others to stop criticizing things you don't want them to.

What's uncivil is supporting psychopaths who will murder innocent people for money, power, or their own personal ego.

My side? I've made it clear that I am not a Republican and I have never voted Republican. I have noticed in you a tendency to make connections, much like a game of telephone. What I'm doing is not support. These wild accusations about my politics and motivations are not civilized or helpful.

I've also pointed out some of Trump's quotes myself. Where it goes off the rails is creating motivations for Trump or his supporters or even people who just plain don't like what you're posting that require connections that cannot be established. Just like when people were accusing Aaron Rodgers of white supremacy. That's how CNN/Fox style propaganda works.

We get politicians like Trump when we stop debating and start throwing that shit around. Because he stands up to it. He throws it right back at you. He loves that stuff.

[RainMaker]

You're not looking for a debate. When someone says something you disagree with, you go on with the same rant about how people aren't civil. Maybe toss in a strawman about people saying Trump wants Russia to nuke the world or people called Aaron Rodgers a white supremacist. You're not debating, just trying to avoid having to defend something.

I don't even know what you'd be looking to debate. Trump is probably the most direct, unfiltered politicians we've ever had. He has almost a decade of documented praise for Putin and his handling of the country (including the Crimea invasion). Has stated multiple times he trusts Putin more than our own law enforcement, military members, and government.

Maybe you have secret inside into what he really means. But I think he's been very clear with where he stands on Russia and Putin.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Link mentioned above where all other living former Presidents of both parties forcefully condemn while Trump, the most recent and most influential, does not:

Makes Trump look good considering the company that'd be. Hell, it's even got the two worst presidents in U.S. history on there.

Elder Bush is the only one I'd piss on if he caught fire, and tbh I'd forgotten he was even still alive..

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You're not looking for a debate. When someone says something you disagree with, you go on with the same rant about how people aren't civil. Maybe toss in a strawman about people saying Trump wants Russia to nuke the world or people called Aaron Rodgers a white supremacist. You're not debating, just trying to avoid having to defend something.

Debate is not about trying to guess someone's motivations or a game of telephone connecting every attempt to discuss an actual issue to something entirely different.

I don't know. Do you like things this way? Does the argument that we'd have higher vaccination rates if politicians and media personalities stopped demonizing everyone bother you that much that you have to make those constant accusations that have nothing to do with the issues?

Why does it upset you so much when people say civility is very important?

Originally Posted by RainMaker

the two sides don't see eye to eye on whether Putin is an enemy or inspiration.

When you throw something like that in here, what do you expect in response? Maybe it's pointless to ask. I'll stop now. I don't think it's worth going back and forth anymore.

[JonInMiddleGA]

And I simply dropped in to point out that, given the performance of the Russian military over the past week, they may want to start brushing up on their Chinese.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

Why does it upset you so much when people say civility is very important?

It doesn't. There's nothing uncivil going on here. Just something you brought up after people pointed out statements the previous President made.

Originally Posted by Solecismic

When you throw something like that in here, what do you expect in response? Maybe it's pointless to ask. I'll stop now. I don't think it's worth going back and forth anymore.

Besides the decade-long praise Trump has heaped on Putin, you have a Senator who recently called our military pansies in comparison to Russia (that one didn't age well), and a couple of Congressman speaking at a white nationalist conference this week where they praised Putin (even chanted his name!). Heck, Trump's former Chief of Staff has been very open about the US supporting Putin in this war.

I'm not including the vast number of former advisors, politicians, and media personalities who have shown support for Russia and Putin.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I simply dropped in to point out that, given the performance of the Russian military over the past week, they may want to start brushing up on their Chinese.

If I have been buying military equipment from Russia like India, I would not feel great about things. For all the talk about the T-90, they seem to be struggling real bad in this war.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Nice! Go Elon Musk

(you might redeem your asshole image with this assuming you don't revert back after).

Elon Musk activates Starlink satellites to give Ukraine data backup – POLITICO

I don't know why media outlets keep falling for this. There are no ground stations in the Ukraine right now. Not a single byte is being transferred from Ukraine through Starlink at the moment.

Maybe they'll be ready when those ventilators show up and that cool submarine saves those kids.

[CrimsonFox]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Thought this was cute

Ukraine war: St Javelin and the missile that has become a symbol of Ukraine's resistance | Euronews

wait this is real?

[RainMaker]

Russian forces have started using MLRS cluster artillery to indiscriminately attack cities.

This shows them bombarding the centre of Kharkiv.🇺🇦

Use of such inaccurate and indiscriminate weapons in a civilian area very probably constitutes a war crime.pic.twitter.com/5ykQzLZnBD

— Jimmy (@JimmySecUK) February 28, 2022

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

you have a Senator who recently called our military pansies in comparison to Russia (that one didn't age well), and a couple of Congressman speaking at a white nationalist conference this week where they praised Putin (even chanted his name!).

.

Its hard to keep up on all the idiocy that resides in the halls of our government right now, who the fuck said that?

[HerRealName]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Its hard to keep up on all the idiocy that resides in the halls of our government right now, who the fuck said that?

The shame of Texas... Well, one of the many politicians that shame Texas. I think he called our military woke and emasculated or something ridiculous.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

Its hard to keep up on all the idiocy that resides in the halls of our government right now, who the fuck said that?

Ted Cruz. He literally used it in an ad that looked like a Russian recruiting commercial.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...y-emasculated/


The president of Ukraine asking for immediate acceptance into NATO. That is obviously not going to happen but there isn't a single NATO country wanting to to this crisis into WW3. The financial sanctions are more brazen than I thought Germany would go. I am not sure Putin wouldn't go beyond conventional weapons if he felt Russian land was in danger of attack.

As well as it has gone for the Ukraine so far, if Putin does find a way to weather the storm of economic disaster I am not sure how long Ukraine can hold out. I am not sure how much the population is still in cities, but it look like a good number. Starvation is going to start becoming a real problem in the coming weeks. Russia has the large population centers encircled. It is going to be near impossible to get the amount of food/medicine needed to keep people fed.

[Flasch186]

For the first time in this I think we very well could be seeing ww3 slow churn.

Belarus joining in would be a block out of the Jenga tower. One country says they’re sending troops on the “allies” side and we’re going to tip over I’m afraid.

So sad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by HerRealName

The shame of Texas... Well, one of the many politicians that shame Texas. I think he called our military woke and emasculated or something ridiculous.

You'll have to be more specific here. We have many - it's one of our primary exports.

(yes, I know, someone posted it above but I just had to say it)

SI

[JPhillips]

Putin's giant table and fear of being in close proximity to anyone is not reassuring. There's a definite crazy super villain vibe going on.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I simply dropped in to point out that, given the performance of the Russian military over the past week, they may want to start brushing up on their Chinese.

I figured when this started, China was going to slowly position Russia to become their new attack dog, replacing North Korea with something much bigger. But I figured they would be more akin to WW2 Italy to China's Germany. Russia was going to get increasingly cut off from the rest of the world so they'd have to get addicted to Chinese debt and watch their resources get sucked dry. This war is not helping them as I'm sure China is going "maybe they're not as useful as we though". I wonder how they've adjusted their 50 and 100 year strategic plans (I just figure China has something like that that's kindof realistic while most of ours are more pie-in-the-sky). That said, I'm sure China is also like "Russia's big but a lot of that land is really useless" and they have no desire to go in and just take it wholesale. Maybe they'll start annexing part, saying there are ethnic Chinese there.

SI

[PilotMan]

If China and Russia did go to war would the world step in and do anything?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

If China and Russia did go to war would the world step in and do anything?

I don't think China would dare, especially right now. It's more of a long term plan next time there is global upheaval.

SI

[Flasch186]

I think China is the only country that can talk some sense into this and I'm not sure that they want to yet but there's a chance that they'll want to come in as heroes at some point possibly.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

If I have been buying military equipment from Russia like India, I would not feel great about things. For all the talk about the T-90, they seem to be struggling real bad in this war.

Tanks are only as good as their ground support and are awful in urban environments. Armor has usually been a strength of the Russian military but people have learned how to negate their effectiveness in urban and guerrilla conflicts. Not to mention we've been pouring AT4s into Ukraine and they're capable is disabling any tank.

Again, horrible strategic planning on Russia's part.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Tanks are only as good as their ground support and are awful in urban environments. Armor has usually been a strength of the Russian military but people have learned how to negate their effectiveness in urban and guerrilla conflicts. Not to mention we've been pouring AT4s into Ukraine and they're capable is disabling any tank.

Again, horrible strategic planning on Russia's part.

When you mostly have hammers, you hope the enemy looks like a nail

SI

[molson]

I wonder what the scope of these talks today were. What would Russia "accept" to get out of this now, and is that worth giving with how poorly things seem to be going for them, especially economically?

You can't replace the lives lost, but Russia being crippled will also save lives. So where to you put that line.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by molson

I wonder what the scope of these talks today were. What would Russia "accept" to get out of this now, and is that worth giving with how poorly things seem to be going for them, especially economically?

You can't replace the lives lost, but Russia being crippled will also save lives. So where to you put that line.

You figure the two sides look something like this

Ukrainian document: "Immediate cease fire and leave our country"

Russian document: Declare the two states independent, surrender your government, and allow us to keep a military presence in your country"

When Russia throws out the "this is our final offer for today" line, the Ukrainians have to be like "GTFO"

SI

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by molson

I wonder what the scope of these talks today were. What would Russia "accept" to get out of this now, and is that worth giving with how poorly things seem to be going for them, especially economically?

You can't replace the lives lost, but Russia being crippled will also save lives. So where to you put that line.

At thins point I don't think Ukraine is willing to concede anything.

I think Putin really thought he would intimidate Zelensky to step down through a show of force then install a puppet regime. Once that didn't happen his hand was forced into launching what has clearly been a half assed invasion. Now that it's going so poorly I think we really all need to be concerned with what his next move is, because at this point there is no clear off ramp for him.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Lathum

At thins point I don't think Ukraine is willing to concede anything.

I think Putin really thought he would intimidate Zelensky to step down through a show of force then install a puppet regime. Once that didn't happen his hand was forced into launching what has clearly been a half assed invasion. Now that it's going so poorly I think we really all need to be concerned with what his next move is, because at this point there is no clear off ramp for him.

Exactly. I think that prior to the invasion, the worst case off ramp was to take the two states and call it a day. He didn't think he'd be in any position where he couldn't fall back to that. And if you're Zelenskyy, you can't accept that offer, especially now, after how well they've been fighting. But if you're Russia, where do you go from here? Long, protracted war with a crippled economy and no life line? And if Putin withdraws, tail tucked between legs, he's probably not alive much longer, right?

SI

[Lathum]

Not sure he is alive much longer anyway unless things take a massive turn.

Maybe I am being a bit too "thriller movie" but you have to think the oligarchs have all kinds of people planted in government that would be willing to lead a charge to overthrow him, especially once the effects from sanctions really hit home. That doesn't even account for all the domestic unrest right around the corner for him.

[sovereignstar v2]

FIFA and UEFA have banned Russian soccer clubs (domestic and their national team) from competing in European and international competitions. Russia was set to play Poland next month for a spot in the 2022 World Cup.

[bhlloy]

When the IOC and FIFA are kicking a country out of all competitions, you know we are in dogs and cats getting along territory.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know why media outlets keep falling for this.

The media and reality have only a fleeting acquaintance at best in many situations, why would this one be any different?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Exactly. I think that prior to the invasion, the worst case off ramp was to take the two states and call it a day. He didn't think he'd be in any position where he couldn't fall back to that. And if you're Zelenskyy, you can't accept that offer, especially now, after how well they've been fighting. But if you're Russia, where do you go from here? Long, protracted war with a crippled economy and no life line? And if Putin withdraws, tail tucked between legs, he's probably not alive much longer, right?

SI

Yeah. When the sabre rattling all started, it seemed like it would end with Russia getting a stronger foothold into Ukraine, but the West could turn a blind eye and pretend that it was all fine.

But Russia has fucked this up so badly that they have not left themselves any face-saving options like that. Which means that they can't turn tail and go home. Which means either a protracted war on the civilians of Ukraine or worse (nukes, etc.). Putin is crazy, and maybe he'd rather blow up the world than be embarrassed.

We really need some Russian general or minister or something to assassinate Putin.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

That said, I'm sure China is also like "Russia's big but a lot of that land is really useless" and they have no desire to go in and just take it wholesale.

After the past week, I think that might actually be the #1 thing saving Russia from getting steamrolled. (along with the fact that that useless land would be the first stuff taken)

[lungs]

If this continues to blow up in Russia’s face, should Russian withdrawal from Crimea be on the table?

[molson]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

When the IOC and FIFA are kicking a country out of all competitions, you know we are in dogs and cats getting along territory.

FIFA said they weren't going to do anything with regard to the World Cup, but Poland, Sweden, and the Czech Republic kind of forced their hand.

If FIFA continued on it probably would have been a 3-team World Cup with Russia, UAE, and Belarus.