Fire Letterman Rally

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

I am sure he didn't know which Daughter was at the game

And right there is where he screwed up.

My political stances are pretty well known here I believe but I've got zero problem whatsoever with the joke as intended. Bristol made her own bed (no pun intended), she can lie in it as far as I'm concerned.

But the joke as delivered, since he hit the wrong target, did warrant some criticism and warranted the apology he eventually made. Heck, I'll even go so far as to be willing to believe he actually did regret misfiring for more than just the controversy. At some level, at his age, I can believe he knows that he ended up going somewhere he shouldn't have even if it was unintentional.

I'm content with the apology & can't get worked up enough about the error to want him fired over it but there have certainly been cases where people lost their jobs for less too.

[RainMaker]

There was a report saying that Olive Garden removed ads from the show and now one saying they didn't.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There was a report saying that Olive Garden removed ads from the show and now one saying they didn't.

The company says they didn't but noted "The Olive Garden media schedule is planned months in advance. The schedule for Late Show with David Letterman was completed earlier this month."

My wild-assed guess would be that they didn't continue the schedule beyond what was already on the books & that they will quietly walk around from the show until the controversy dies down. Someone (whoever Andy Barr at Politico is) took that & turned it into "they've cancelled", which I'd go further & speculate was misunderstanding a miffed CBS sales rep who had figured to get the buy extended only to find negotiations with the media buyer hitting a stone wall. The rep cries in anguish, Barr leaps to the wrong conclusion, and we end up with sounds like bad info floating in cyberspace.

Or at least that's how I could easily see the conflicting info happening, YMMV.

edit to add: OG's agency might have even gone so far as to refuse makegoods for missed spots and/or underdelivery (which there shouldn't have been any of with his recent uptick) in the show, which kind of technically could be considered a partial cancellation if they opted to keep the money in their pocket instead of moving it into another program. But now I'm really stretching the speculation thing to go that far in imagining a scenario.

[RainMaker]

Is it really a controversy though? I mean 15 people showed up at the protest. I know Fox News is treating this like 9/11, but I've gathered that most people don't give a fuck.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is it really a controversy though? I mean 15 people showed up at the protest. I know Fox News is treating this like 9/11, but I've gathered that most people don't give a fuck.

When you're positioned as a family restaurant (or whatever, but that's a reasonable description of OG I think) pretty much any controversy is controversy. Part of a good agency's job (IMO at least) is to not only provide guidance to their client but also to anticipate possible controversies ahead of time so that you have a strategy in place to deal with them. Now granted, I tend to be more hands-on & ground level than most buyers, but I literally knew the morning show content of every local market station (about three dozen markets give or take) that I placed ads on for a client, even took a look at the web presence of those in formats likely to cross the boundaries of taste. Prevented more than one nasty surprise over the years.

Unless you're intentionally shooting for edgy in your targeting, there's not many cases where an ad vehicle is worth the risk of losing even a small percentage of customers over, there's simply too many options to reach the same people without the risk.

If the average person realized how sensitive corporations can be with this sort of thing, we'd see 5x as many protests.

[SnowMan]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Best strip club in America, with VERY hot women, is in Alaska.

Ahh yes, ABC. It's pretty good in the summer. But in the winter. Yikes.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by molson

The stage "incident" is most commonly cited.

But it still escapes me how a political candidate's decisions make it OK to attack their children in tasteless ways. Bristol wasn't Palin's campaign manager, as far as I know. And the idea that Palin is somehow wrong to be upset that someone is attacking her children is just bizarre.

Except I never said she shouldn't be upset. I said it made sense and I understood that, whether she was partly responsible or not.

It's all about Palin though, you can see it in this thread. The weird hate comes first, then the scramble for the justification.

Both Palin and Hillary Clinton get a disproportionate amount of raw anger, considering their actual influence. Sexism in this country is far more prevalent than racism, and it's more accepted. You can say "bitch", any other gender slur all you want. The racial slurs on the other and have an aura of universal wrongness. Which is good, I just wonder if we'll ever reach that point with sexism.

What I do find interesting about your comment here is that Palin herself said female candidates shouldn't "whine" about sexism. Of course, that was before she was the VP nominee. It was when she was weighing in on Hillary Clinton's campaign.

I don't like Palin, but it has nothing to do with her sex. It has to do with her "gee government, get off my back" nonsense that is supposed to pass for a political position and her constant hypocrisy.

[kcchief19]

I told Mrs. kcchief19 after we watched Dave's second apology that we would now see Palin's true colors because there was no way she would apologize for implying that he was a sexual predator who couldn't be trusted around young girls. Her supporters share her hypocrisy; nice to see them talk about his "bastard" child and "whore" wife.

I wish Dave would stick to his guns though. It's similar to the OJ issue. Leno feasted on OJ Simpson jokes for his entire run at NBC. Dave didn't do OJ jokes for years. Howard Stern was on one night making OJ jokes and Dave wasn't laughing. When Stern asked him why he didn't do OJ jokes, Dave said, "I just don't find double murder all that funny."

I'll admit I'm sorry Dave ever did an OJ joke, but just the fact that he has enough humanity to feel remorse about doing sick jokes or feeling bad when a joke hurts someone proves that he's got more class than most of us.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

My wild-assed guess would be that they didn't continue the schedule beyond what was already on the books & that they will quietly walk around from the show until the controversy dies down. Someone (whoever Andy Barr at Politico is) took that & turned it into "they've cancelled", which I'd go further & speculate was misunderstanding a miffed CBS sales rep who had figured to get the buy extended only to find negotiations with the media buyer hitting a stone wall. The rep cries in anguish, Barr leaps to the wrong conclusion, and we end up with sounds like bad info floating in cyberspace.

Olive Garden’s manager of media relations, who asked not to be quoted on the record, confirmed to POLITICO Thursday that the emails were sent by the restaurant chain, and also confirmed that the company would be pulling its remaining television spots on the program for the rest of the year when asked that question.

My wild-assed guess is that the manager of media relations, who is not authorized to go on the record, confirmed the truth to Politico that they were indeed pulling their ads. Then the Director of Media Relations stepped in to change the story. Typical crisis PR for people who don't know what they are doing -- alienate both sides as much as you can.

Guess I'll see what happens. I just sent an e-mail on Olive Garden's Web site stating my family and I will no longer be frequenting Olive Garden or any Darden Restaurants until they issue an apology to Mr. Letterman and resume advertising on his program. I now know the rush that it feels like to be a holier-than-thou-there-but-for-the-grace-of-god-go-I wacko!

[RainMaker]

I think if advertisers pull spots and it gets steam in the media, it actually works out worse for Palin. Dave is pretty well liked and while making a statement that she felt his comments were tasteless is one thing, starting a lynch mob for the guys career is another. Potential for an epic backfire.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think if advertisers pull spots and it gets steam in the media, it actually works out worse for Palin. Dave is pretty well liked and while making a statement that she felt his comments were tasteless is one thing, starting a lynch mob for the guys career is another. Potential for an epic backfire.

Not likely to bother many people who were going to vote for her IMO, at least not enough to change their vote over it. Don't confuse Letterman's improved numbers vs Conan with some sort of huge sudden love for Dave, it's just that he's more palatable to a lot of people by default now.

Like I said in another Palin thread way back, she's got an odd appeal to a lot of people (no jokes needed there, thanks, I just don't know another way to phrase it) and it's almost eerie in a way. I called her out for a number of basically white trash characteristics back in '08 but at the same time, she's got this weird charisma or whatever that really connects to people (and no birds of a feather joke needed there either, actually the people I've run across IRL who liked her the most were waaaay over to the other extreme in their personalities/social characteristics/whathaveyou)

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

But she's not being jabbed because of anything she said in that People Magazine article. If anything, she came off as a pretty good, if somewhat naive, kid who handled herself well. She did nothing other than what many teenage mothers have done before her. That doesn't mean she's a whore as Letterman's joke implied (and you're foolish if you think the intent was anything other than to demean her in that way).

Lindsey Lohan is getting lambasted due to her inappropriate lifestyle that she chose. That's a much different situation.

How can you type this with a straight face? Both Lindsey Lohan and Bristol Palin led inappropriate lifestyles they they chose. It's the exact same situation.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not likely to bother many people who were going to vote for her IMO, at least not enough to change their vote over it. Don't confuse Letterman's improved numbers vs Conan with some sort of huge sudden love for Dave, it's just that he's more palatable to a lot of people by default now.

Like I said in another Palin thread way back, she's got an odd appeal to a lot of people (no jokes needed there, thanks, I just don't know another way to phrase it) and it's almost eerie in a way. I called her out for a number of basically white trash characteristics back in '08 but at the same time, she's got this weird charisma or whatever that really connects to people (and no birds of a feather joke needed there either, actually the people I've run across IRL who liked her the most were waaaay over to the other extreme in their personalities/social characteristics/whathaveyou)

I think it's fine if she is just going to cater toward hardcore conservatives. If she wants a career giving high priced speeches at conservative conferences, and so on then this is perfect. She'll keep that niche in the political game and be extremely succesful at it. She'll be able to write books and get TV appearances whenever she wants. Will make a ton of money too. Not a bad life at all.

But if she wants to be President, this won't help at all. It hurts her with moderates and independents, the two types of voters you need to be President (especially when your party is way behind in voter identification).

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

these people have jobs?

Yup............................torching abortion clinics.

[M GO BLUE!!!]

These morons are the right-wing equivalent of Cindy Sheehan. Loud, annoying and getting far too much press. I hope Governor Palin is proud to see what a fine group of supporters she has.

By the way... I think the IQ out there was about 130. (Cumulative, not average.)

[stevew]

With Tripp, Track, and now Trig as family boys names, they should have gone with "Trick" instead of Bristol. It fits better.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Axxon

How can you type this with a straight face? Both Lindsey Lohan and Bristol Palin led inappropriate lifestyles they they chose. It's the exact same situation.

I wouldn't say Bristol led an inappropriate lifestyle.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I wouldn't say Bristol led an inappropriate lifestyle.

Yeah I know one of my aspirations for my daughter is for her to grow up and get knocked up by some dirt ball named LEVI at the age of 16

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I wouldn't say Bristol led an inappropriate lifestyle.

So high school having unprotected sex and getting knocked up is appropriate now? I don't think her family would agree with you so by her ( abstinence advocate ) and her mother's own words, she was living an inappropriate lifestyle.

[stevew]

In the DVR era, who still watches Letterman or Leno or whomever else is on? I actually get home right about the middle of either one of those shows, but I'd much rather something I have taped.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Axxon

So high school having unprotected sex and getting knocked up is appropriate now? I don't think her family would agree with you so by her ( abstinence advocate ) and her mother's own words, she was living an inappropriate lifestyle.

Oh come on, you're really stretching things out a long way to try to make a point here. Who the hell didn't do inappropriate things in high school? Typing Bristol Palin and Lindsay Lohan in the same sentence totally invalidates anything you're trying to say. implying... not even implying, I believe your exact words were "It's the exact same situation" actually. Stating that a high school kid who had sex and unfortunately got pregnant is anything at all like the lifestyle that Lindsay Lohan is leading is absurd.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Radii

Oh come on, you're really stretching things out a long way to try to make a point here. Who the hell didn't do inappropriate things in high school? Typing Bristol Palin and Lindsay Lohan in the same sentence totally invalidates anything you're trying to say. implying... not even implying, I believe your exact words were "It's the exact same situation" actually. Stating that a high school kid who had sex and unfortunately got pregnant is anything at all like the lifestyle that Lindsay Lohan is leading is absurd.

The Palins themselves call it inappropriate. It's something now that Bristol in fact is advocating against. I think it's pretty clear that if one allows them to decide about their own actions you'd have to call it inappropriate.

To me, this isn't a judge the severity of a young woman's indiscretions though. I wrote "Both Lindsey Lohan and Bristol Palin led inappropriate lifestyles they they chose." Without trying to judge the levels of the inappropriate lifestyles which isn't my point, in the definition I was stating it is the same thing. A guy flying a Cessna and a guy flying a 747 are both pilots. It doesn't matter which one's plane is bigger.

The problem with playing whose was worse is that it's apologetic to the lesser offense when it may not deserve being apologetic against or vilifies something that does not deserve it. I don't think anyone has tried to claim that their actions are identical but clearly they both have led inappropriate lifestyles by their very own admissions. Same thing especially since Dave's joke is precisely lambasting due to her inappropriate lifestyle that she chose.

It's not a different situation. The situation is that they both were lambasted due to their ( by her own admission ) inappropriate lifestyle that they chose.

Now, if you want to argue that there's some level of inappropriateness that causes you to give up all rights to expect decency from the peanut gallery then feel free. It's not the argument I was addressing with my statement though.

[fantom1979]

I think we are all missing the point here. Someone started a fire Letterman protest and 15 people showed up. I am thinking that Palin's base might not be very strong (or maybe it is hibernating).

[Radii]

I'm so confused. I think I have to just quit the thread, which I never should have come into in the first place, and quite possibly the internet. This is way beyond me. I don't even know what's being argued right now, and I'm afraid anything I say is going to end up defending MBBF, which just puts me in a bad place. I lose!

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by Radii

I'm so confused. I think I have to just quit the thread, which I never should have come into in the first place, and quite possibly the internet. This is way beyond me. I don't even know what's being argued right now, and I'm afraid anything I say is going to end up defending MBBF, which just puts me in a bad place. I lose!

I think you're just reading too much into my one criticism of one statement. My statements before that should give you an idea of where my feelings lie and it's on the side of the kids.

I wonder about Lindsey though. Obviously she's screwed up but the thing is, she's reminded of this constantly and in very hurtful ways. I'm not really sure that this is helpful for someone of her temperament. I'm not suggesting that she should be treated with kid gloves but probably all the cheap shots and abuse aren't helping the situation.

I'd say if we're going to cut the Palins some slack we should extend that to Lindsey too ( why not, she's not our responsibility so what's the point of commenting if it isn't helpful? ) which is really exactly what Palin was saying and damn, if you think you lose defending MBBF I'm actually defending Palin and that's far, far more skeevely to me so maybe I should back off too.

Still don't think Dave should be fired though.

[RainMaker]

I don't think she did anything inappropriate. I think she did something stupid and reckless. But she wasn't raised by parents that believe in sex education. I'd honestly bet that a lot of us had some close calls in our day.

[fantom1979]

I can honestly say that I have never been close to being pregnant.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by fantom1979

I think we are all missing the point here. Someone started a fire Letterman protest and 15 people showed up. I am thinking that Palin's base might not be very strong (or maybe it is hibernating).

Probably just not strong in New York...something tells me her lifestyle wouldn't transplant well.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The saddest thing about this is that everyone is missing one of the worst part about Letterman's comments. It wasn't that he attacked her child, it's just the ridiculous stereotype we have for young women who have sex. If you're a young female and have sex you're a whore. If you're a young male and have sex you're a ladies man. I think labeling every teen girl who has sex as a whore is an unhealthy societal image we are portraying.

That point was made earlier in this thread by yours truly. It's just being ignored because it's a debate killer. The other more political talking points make for much more lively discussion.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Axxon

How can you type this with a straight face? Both Lindsey Lohan and Bristol Palin led inappropriate lifestyles they they chose. It's the exact same situation.

Oh dear. This post speaks for itself.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Axxon

So high school having unprotected sex and getting knocked up is appropriate now? I don't think her family would agree with you so by her ( abstinence advocate ) and her mother's own words, she was living an inappropriate lifestyle.

We don't know she had unprotected sex.

I think having sex in high school is a fairly normal lifestyle that many teenagers engage in, which is exactly why Palin's abstinence only policy is stupid and unrealistic.

And I'm not sure what their own thoughts on the appropriateness have to do with my statement that you responded to. My feeling on the matter wouldn't change no matter what the Palins thought.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

That point was made earlier in this thread by yours truly. It's just being ignored because it's a debate killer. The other more political talking points make for much more lively discussion.

No, it's because it's not really germane to the discussion. Unless we want to hold Letterman accountable for society's problems.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

No, it's because it's not really germane to the discussion. Unless we want to hold Letterman accountable for society's problems.

A man who is in the spotlight as much as he is can affect society, both positively and negatively. We can't hold him accountable for society's ignorance, but we can certainly hold him accountable for furthering and fostering that ignorance.

[larrymcg421]

I'm not sure I see that, though. It was just as much a joke about A-Rod as it was about Bristol.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I'm not sure I see that, though. It was just as much a joke about A-Rod as it was about Bristol.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Letterman has openly stated his political leanings. Bristol was collateral damage to snipe at the Palin family. He could have told a similar joke to make fun of A-Rod without including Bristol if that was TRULY his intent (which it wasn't).

[larrymcg421]

Yeah, Letterman never told sex jokes about Bill Clinton or John Edwards or Elliot Spitzer.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Yeah, Letterman never told sex jokes about Bill Clinton or John Edwards or Elliot Spitzer.

Which is irrelevant. Those people are like Palin and are open to that kind of thing. Kids should not be part of that. He was looking to demean someone he hates politically and he used the kid to take the shot. That's just wrong, plain and simple.

[larrymcg421]

I was responding to your sexism argument, but I guess it's silly for me to expect you to keep one consistent argument going.

Again, the political argument is stupid because he will make fun of anyone, no matter what their politics as I just established. And he will make jokes about family members (see: Clinton, Roger). If you want to say family members should be off limits, that's one thing, and we've been discussing that.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I was responding to your sexism argument, but I guess it's silly for me to expect you to keep one consistent argument going.

Sorry, that was much earlier in the thread. Didn't realize you were discussing something further back since it wasn't quoted. It's impossible to know otherwise.

I don't have nearly the problem with the Palin 'flight attendant' joke that others do. The kid jokes I have a huge problem with.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Sorry, that was much earlier in the thread. Didn't realize you were discussing something further back since it wasn't quoted. It's impossible to know otherwise.

I don't have nearly the problem with the Palin 'flight attendant' joke that others do. The kid jokes I have a huge problem with.

No, that's not what I'm talking about either. I was responding to the point you and Rainmaker were making about women and sex.

And I'd suggest you were doing very well in this thread until you started talking about Letterman as the evil liberal.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

No, that's not what I'm talking about either. I was responding to the point you and Rainmaker were making about women and sex.

And I'd suggest you were doing very well in this thread until you started talking about Letterman as the evil liberal.

He's not an 'evil liberal' and I never termed him as such. He's a person who favors the liberal side of issues and made the mistake of incorporating his beliefs into a tasteless joke. That doesn't make him evil. It makes him guilty of very poor judgment and foresight. There's nothing wrong with holding a political belief. There is something wrong with attempting to put down the beliefs of others while using a kid to do that.

I stand by my statement concerning sexism. If you don't know it exists, you likely just haven't looked hard enough or haven't had a wife/daughter smack you in the head to make you aware it exists.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

He's not an 'evil liberal' and I never termed him as such. He's a person who favors the liberal side of issues and made the mistake of incorporating his beliefs into a tasteless joke. That doesn't make him evil. It makes him guilty of very poor judgment and foresight. There's nothing wrong with holding a political belief. There is something wrong with attempting to put down the beliefs of others while using a kid to do that.

But as I said, he has always attacked people no matter their politics. My problem is you're trying to make this a political thing, when it's really a taste thing.

I stand by my statement concerning sexism. If you don't know it exists, you likely just haven't looked hard enough or haven't had a wife/daughter smack you in the head to make you aware it exists.

Where the hell did this come from? I never said sexism doesn't exist. I said it didn't exist in that joke. Responses like this, which have no basis in anything I posted, are why you are so fucking annoying.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Where the hell did this come from? I never said sexism doesn't exist. I said it didn't exist in that joke.

I'll let your post stand on its own merit. I couldn't disagree more that sexism didn't exist in the joke.

[Fighter of Foo]

I've paid zero attention to this until this morning. Just need to know if I have this right...

Some people, who for the most part do not watch Letterman, have a problem with a joke he made about Sarah Palin's kid? And that's it?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo

I've paid zero attention to this until this morning. Just need to know if I have this right...

Some people, who for the most part do not watch Letterman, have a problem with a joke he made about Sarah Palin's kid? And that's it?

Yeah, that seems to be it. And now nobody's even making fun of those people anymore. We're not using the internet to its full capabilities.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Not likely to bother many people who were going to vote for her IMO, at least not enough to change their vote over it. Don't confuse Letterman's improved numbers vs Conan with some sort of huge sudden love for Dave, it's just that he's more palatable to a lot of people by default now.

True to a certain degree. The funny thing is that NBC is spinning Conan's lower total viewer numbers than Leno had being due to the slower summer TV season, which ignores the fact that at the same time Letterman has remained consistent if not built his audience slightly at a time when you would expect his numbers to seasonally dip too.

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Like I said in another Palin thread way back, she's got an odd appeal to a lot of people (no jokes needed there, thanks, I just don't know another way to phrase it) and it's almost eerie in a way. I called her out for a number of basically white trash characteristics back in '08 but at the same time, she's got this weird charisma or whatever that really connects to people (and no birds of a feather joke needed there either, actually the people I've run across IRL who liked her the most were waaaay over to the other extreme in their personalities/social characteristics/whathaveyou)

I don't think it's weird or odd at all. She's a fairly attractive woman and charismatic woman and plays to that strength. There's a disturbing lack of women in the governorships and national politics so an attractive charismatic woman stands out from the crowd. Physical attraction works on both sexes; there's a reason why the homecoming queen is the hottest, most popular girl in school.

I'm not sure I can agree with that last part, at least not around my part of the world. Her fan base here appears to be extremely conservative and predominately male. Conservative women like here too, but men really dig her, and I don't think that's odd or weird at all.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

We don't know she had unprotected sex.

I think having sex in high school is a fairly normal lifestyle that many teenagers engage in, which is exactly why Palin's abstinence only policy is stupid and unrealistic.

And I'm not sure what their own thoughts on the appropriateness have to do with my statement that you responded to. My feeling on the matter wouldn't change no matter what the Palins thought.

So an activity cannot be inappropriate as long as many people do it? That's an interesting thought.

Even better, an activity can't be inappropriate even if you think it as as long as someone else doesn't think it is.

I'm not sure I'm ready for that much moral relativism but I know lots of people are.

[kcchief19]

My personal confession on this:

I'm a hypocrite. I've been a Letterman fan for 30 years (since before Late Night) and that's pretty much all my life. There is nothing Dave can say that will make me think less of him.

I think I feel about the joke the same way Dave does; it seemed funny at the time but it was a coarse joke about involving an 18-year-old girl. I'm very torn on my sympathies about Bristol Palin. I really want to feel sorry for her. Her parents apparently believe in "abstinence only" and chose a path for her that I believe (based on evidence) leads to too many teenage pregnancies. I can't imagine Bristol Palin wanted to have a baby but she had no freedom of choice based on who her mother was. I don't know if Bristol Palin wanted to stay home in Alaska or not, but she was paraded across the country as a political prop by her parents and the GOP. I feel sorry for Bristol Palin. I think her parents are asshats though.

To me, the joke was less about Bristol Palin than it was a joke about Alex Rodriguez and Sarah Palin. I think a lot of the Bristol Palin jokes are shots at her mother for not teaching her daughter how to make better choices. I still think there is a difference between making a joke about someone based on their actions or choices than based on things out of their control. I think there's a huge difference between a joke about a knocked-up Bristol Palin and comparing Chelsea Clinton to a dog.

I'm glad Dave apologized and I'm glad he probably won't be doing any more Bristol Palin jokes any more becuase it's the right thing to do. But I still think Sarah Palin owes Dave an apology for the things she and her husband said about him, and I don't think they have the character to do it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Sorry, that was much earlier in the thread. Didn't realize you were discussing something further back since it wasn't quoted. It's impossible to know otherwise.

I don't have nearly the problem with the Palin 'flight attendant' joke that others do. The kid jokes I have a huge problem with.

When do "kids" become fair game? Caroline Kennedy seemed to get a lot of criticism and negative comments when she was interested in the Senate seat. Are you saying that if you're a kid of someone in politics, you are never allowed to have your views and lifestyle scrutinized?

[CamEdwards]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

When do "kids" become fair game? Caroline Kennedy seemed to get a lot of criticism and negative comments when she was interested in the Senate seat. Are you saying that if you're a kid of someone in politics, you are never allowed to have your views and lifestyle scrutinized?

How about the standard (as if this really needs debating) is if you're a kid who's not willingly putting yourself out there politically, you get left alone. That would include the Obama children, the Palin kids, even Rick Santorum's children, but would leave Caroline Kennedy, Meghan McCain, etc. open for scrutiny.