Trump Indictment/Trial thread-2023

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

he's even the one who explained that being pro-Trump took over everything else including reality

Is this directed at me?

[SirFozzie]

no, JD vance.

he called Trump "America's Hitler" to one of his friends as well before being a convert

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

no, JD vance.

he called Trump "America's Hitler" to one of his friends as well before being a convert

aha. OK. I had commented during primary season he was normal compared to Oz, et al and it was taken out of context

[SirFozzie]

This is the post I was referring to:

https://twitter.com/JoshforGeorgia/s...93390378741763

He makes a good point, but either he got eaten by the brainworms, or he's damn good at pretending to be.

[JPhillips]

Vance went from writing a book with the message to rural whites being, "it isn't someone else's fault," to a candidate whose message was, "actually everything is someone else's fault." He's willing to say whatever he needs to to please the people funding and voting for him. Unfortunately, he's far from unique in that within the GOP.

[cuervo72]

Meanwhile, at Fox...

An actual banner that just aired on Fox.

This is not a legitimate news organization that should have privileged press credentials. pic.twitter.com/D0xNjfwEtQ

— No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen (@NoLieWithBTC) June 14, 2023

[Brian Swartz]

That's actually one whale of a thorny question; who gets to decide that, and on what basis?

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Meanwhile, at Fox...

An actual banner that just aired on Fox.

This is not a legitimate news organization that should have privileged press credentials. pic.twitter.com/D0xNjfwEtQ

— No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen (@NoLieWithBTC) June 14, 2023

That's a new low and a legit escalation of rhetoric.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

That's actually one whale of a thorny question; who gets to decide that, and on what basis?

What do you mean?

[JPhillips]

Trump's assertion and the growing GOP position is that the Presidential Records Act lets the President take whatever personal items he/she wants, so Trump is cleared. Taking that to an extreme, though, means that a President could literally box up every top-secret document in the executive branch and leave with them when the term is over.

What has happened to the GOP and all to protect a guy like Trump.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Trump's assertion and the growing GOP position is that the Presidential Records Act lets the President take whatever personal items he/she wants, so Trump is cleared. Taking that to an extreme, though, means that a President could literally box up every top-secret document in the executive branch and leave with them when the term is over.

What has happened to the GOP and all to protect a guy like Trump.

The bizarre thing is the PRA says exactly the opposite of that.

[albionmoonlight]

The legal argument is that it is the Presidential Records Act. So it is an Act that lets the President keep all the Records. It really is that dumb of an argument.

And I can see that Trump is stupid enough to believe that. But I am saddened by all of the GOPers who know better who are out there trying to confuse the base.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by Lathum

There needs to be guardrails against shit like this.

No amount of guardrails will work when we keep electing horrible people.

The system depends on a base level of norms and integrity by the people running it.

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Trump's assertion and the growing GOP position is that the Presidential Records Act lets the President take whatever personal items he/she wants, so Trump is cleared. Taking that to an extreme, though, means that a President could literally box up every top-secret document in the executive branch and leave with them when the term is over.

What has happened to the GOP and all to protect a guy like Trump.

I mean, one of the things that was taught back in middle school civics was that all gifts and things that the President gets while in office belong to the office, not the person. So if China gifts him a pretty vase at an official diplomatic function that after he leaves, he doesn't keep it. It stays with the WH and it's not actually his.



How did we go from that complete, total, and accepted version of the office of the President to this new one that says the President can just do what he wants when he wants because he's the President?

[Ghost Econ]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I mean, one of the things that was taught back in middle school civics was that all gifts and things that the President gets while in office belong to the office, not the person. So if China gifts him a pretty vase at an official diplomatic function that after he leaves, he doesn't keep it. It stays with the WH and it's not actually his.

How did we go from that complete, total, and accepted version of the office of the President to this new one that says the President can just do what he wants when he wants because he's the President?

To be fair, I was at a beta club convention a few years ago where now Presidential hopeful Tim Scott proudly admitted to grade schoolers that he failed high school civics. It's a badge of honor for a certain part of the country.

[PilotMan]

Seems like the real strategy is the one they've been using for a while now. Muddy the waters with enough reasons, doubling back on existed, multitudes of different accusations, that all generally serve to overwhelm the main points, sew confusion, and then blame the government and the media for everything to the point that the average person stops listening and is willing to accept "both sides" as a valid argument. It's exactly what I hear when I hear Jim explain his points. And I see Jim as a pretty average consumer who keeps most political stuff on the periphery, but still runs all of it through his filters. I imagine that's more representative of the public in general than the focus that we give things here on the board. It's also exceptionally effective. Just muddy it all up so it's what people want to ignore and blame for bothering them, then actually attend to the issues at hand.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

Seems like the real strategy is the one they've been using for a while now. Muddy the waters with enough reasons, doubling back on existed, multitudes of different accusations, that all generally serve to overwhelm the main points, sew confusion, and then blame the government and the media for everything to the point that the average person stops listening and is willing to accept "both sides" as a valid argument. It's exactly what I hear when I hear Jim explain his points. And I see Jim as a pretty average consumer who keeps most political stuff on the periphery, but still runs all of it through his filters. I imagine that's more representative of the public in general than the focus that we give things here on the board. It's also exceptionally effective. Just muddy it all up so it's what people want to ignore and blame for bothering them, then actually attend to the issues at hand.

100%

They can't come out and just say, yeah this is bad. Trump really fucked up and the evidence suggests he's unfit for office at the very least.

Something like that may lead someone to think, hey maybe the dems are the good guys in this. I don't agree with their policies, but I'm not sure I want my vote attached to these other guys.

Instead, you do your best to downplay the charges and try to convince as many people as you can that dems are just as bad. Luckily, you've spent years training your base to accept the info you give at face value and not to believe anything else.

Is this a winning strategy? No, but neither is backing Trump. It's a safe strategy with your voters, though, and if you gerrymander enough it keeps you competitive in elections.

[GrantDawg]

It comes down to the same thing in the election stuff. They throw out a thousand false theories, and just flood the zone with "facts" that have no bearing in reality.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Galaril

What do you mean?

I mean the one raised by PilotMan's post just above mine. What news organization's get press credentials, or is it just anyone, and if it's not just anyone is the government legitimately in the business of deciding who can cover what it does. If its the latter, you have a real problem with the press being able to actually do it's job, to the degree they are interested in doing it. I.e. who decides when a press outlet is just a bunch of propagandist nonsense and when it is a legitimate news organization?

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I mean the one raised by PilotMan's post just above mine. What news organization's get press credentials, or is it just anyone, and if it's not just anyone is the government legitimately in the business of deciding who can cover what it does. If its the latter, you have a real problem with the press being able to actually do it's job, to the degree they are interested in doing it. I.e. who decides when a press outlet is just a bunch of propagandist nonsense and when it is a legitimate news organization?

You quoted me, and I never asked that. I knew what you were talking about.


edit: It was Galaril that asked

[Brian Swartz]

Thanks. Corrected.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

No amount of guardrails will work when we keep electing horrible people.

The system depends on a base level of norms and integrity by the people running it.

This. One of my favorite historical quotes is by Sir Edmund Burke, occasions for it come up every now and then. Short version:

"It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters."

In other words, government by the people depends on the people making generally good decisions, including about who their representatives will be. An increasing number of people are unqualified for the amount of power and freedom they possess. If that trend continues, democracy won't last even if there isn't a major party actively attacking it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MJ4H

The bizarre thing is the PRA says exactly the opposite of that.

Yeah, it's very clear what the law allows here. They'll make some stupid arguments and hope one of the judges they've bought signs off on it.

[GrantDawg]

It wouldn't surprise me at all that Judge Cannon will rule that way, but I don't think the appellate court is going to agree.

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[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

I mean the one raised by PilotMan's post just above mine. What news organization's get press credentials, or is it just anyone, and if it's not just anyone is the government legitimately in the business of deciding who can cover what it does. If its the latter, you have a real problem with the press being able to actually do it's job, to the degree they are interested in doing it. I.e. who decides when a press outlet is just a bunch of propagandist nonsense and when it is a legitimate news organization?

Ah thanks got it now.

[albionmoonlight]

I saw a pretty obvious point that I had not considered before. Trump declared as a candidate, in part, to shield himself from indictment. But it turns out that he ended up making his indictment more likely,

For all Trump/MAGA whine that this is a witch hunt, the reality is that Biden/Garland are moderates who strongly believe in norms. I think that they had a strong personal preference against charging him.

But when he became a candidate, he forced a special counsel. And the SC is not constrained by personal feelings or politics--it is just about the law.

And that's bad for Trump.

He was so worried that they were out to get him that he didn't realize they were protecting him.

[bronconick]

If Trump ends up in jail because of listening to non-lawyer Tom Fitten, it'll be the best thing Judicial Watch has ever done

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I saw a pretty obvious point that I had not considered before. Trump declared as a candidate, in part, to shield himself from indictment. But it turns out that he ended up making his indictment more likely,

For all Trump/MAGA whine that this is a witch hunt, the reality is that Biden/Garland are moderates who strongly believe in norms. I think that they had a strong personal preference against charging him.

But when he became a candidate, he forced a special counsel. And the SC is not constrained by personal feelings or politics--it is just about the law.

And that's bad for Trump.

He was so worried that they were out to get him that he didn't realize they were protecting him.

If he didn't want to be indicted, they gave him double digit off ramps and declined each and every one of them

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by bronconick

If Trump ends up in jail because of listening to non-lawyer Tom Fitten, it'll be the best thing Judicial Watch has ever done

I am reading some of this shit and it is a riot. Completely validates the theory that Trump will listen to whomever tells him what he wants to hear and this is likely the reason he can't retain a decent attorney.

[Lathum]

Trump's obsession with cable news pundits could be his downfall | Media Matters for America

Trump time and again rejected the advice from lawyers and advisers who urged him to cooperate and instead took the advice of Tom Fitton, the head of the conservative group Judicial Watch, and a range of others who told him he could legally keep the documents and should fight the Justice Department, advisers said. Trump would often cite Fitton to others, and Fitton told some of Trump’s lawyers that Trump could keep the documents, even as they disagreed, the advisers said.

It is really hard to comprehend that millions of people think the guy who should lead our nation was told by his attorneys if he gave back the documents everything would be clear, and instead said, nah, I am going to trust the TV guy in a shrunken shirt and take on the DOJ and their 96% conviction rate.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I am reading some of this shit and it is a riot. Completely validates the theory that Trump will listen to whomever tells him what he wants to hear and this is likely the reason he can't retain a decent attorney.

Can you imagine the work and coordination white house staff had to pull off to keep his presidency from going off the rails more than it did?

[GrantDawg]

I have a new hobby right now, and that's watching arrests and court cases of "Sovereign Citizens." These people find this stuff online and just fully buy in on it. It is completely batcrap crazy. You can watch them over and over again be shocked when they get arrested following the script of whatever SovCit guru they subscribe to. It is Q-anon come to life.
They remind me so much of Trump and Trumpers. They want to believe this, and they are willing to go all in to try and make it reality.

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[Atocep]

Originally Posted by GrantDawg

I have a new hobby right now, and that's watching arrests and court cases of "Sovereign Citizens." These people find this stuff online and just fully buy in on it. It is completely batcrap crazy. You can watch them over and over again be shocked when they get arrested following the script of whatever SovCit guru they subscribe to. It is Q-anon come to life.
They remind me so much of Trump and Trumpers. They want to believe this, and they are willing to go all in to try and make it reality.

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ArE yOu DeTaInInG mE?????

[GrantDawg]

I choose as a free live person not to enter a contract with this corporation. I want to speak to your supervisor.

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[PilotMan]

All I think about is the episode of Family Guy where Peter creates Petoria.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Can you imagine the work and coordination white house staff had to pull off to keep his presidency from going off the rails more than it did?

And the scary thing is during his first term there were a lot of establishment people around him. We may not like John Bolton or bill Barr but they weren’t going to let him run us into the ground. Anyone with a brain this time around is going to stay as far away as possible so we’re going to end up with Kid Rock as Secretary of State.

[Kodos]

Scott Adams will probably get a spot.

[Brian Swartz]

Originally Posted by Lathum

It is really hard to comprehend that millions of people think the guy who should lead our nation was told by his attorneys if he gave back the documents everything would be clear, and instead said, nah, I am going to trust the TV guy in a shrunken shirt and take on the DOJ and their 96% conviction rate.

Not hard to comprehend at all when you realize how bad many of them think the alternative is. They'd say it's hard to comprehend how anyone in their right mind would ever vote for someone like Biden.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

Not hard to comprehend at all when you realize how bad many of them think the alternative is. They'd say it's hard to comprehend how anyone in their right mind would ever vote for someone like Biden.

Like I said. It is very hard to comprehend. We are a nation of morons.

[Lathum]

dola- It is hard to comprehend how they can think he is a better alternative, never mind the fact at this point it isn't between him and Biden and he still has overwhelming support.

Lets also not act for one second there are aa lot of people picking Trump using the logic he is a better choice than Biden. Are there some, of course, but there are also a lot of people who legitimately think he is the best president ever.

[Brian Swartz]

The number of people who think that aren't even a majority of Trump supporters. One poll by Pew a couple years ago found that 17% of Americans and 37% of Republicans found Trump to be the best President of the last 40 years. In other words, the majority of people who support Trump don't think that. On the hard to comprehend bit, I guess that just depends on how willing we are to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we view the world in a 'there's no valid reason for people to have differnet opinions than I do' or whatever lens, it definitely can be. If we realize just how differently people think at a fundamental level and don't put our views and experiences as inherently superior to others, it's much easier to do so.

[thesloppy]

Not this shit again.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

The number of people who think that aren't even a majority of Trump supporters. One poll by Pew a couple years ago found that 17% of Americans and 37% of Republicans found Trump to be the best President of the last 40 years. In other words, the majority of people who support Trump don't think that. On the hard to comprehend bit, I guess that just depends on how willing we are to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we view the world in a 'there's no valid reason for people to have differnet opinions than I do' or whatever lens, it definitely can be. If we realize just how differently people think at a fundamental level and don't put our views and experiences as inherently superior to others, it's much easier to do so.

Sorry. I often forget how morally and intellectually superior you are to the rest of us who exist a few planes below you.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by thesloppy

Not this shit again.

Originally Posted by Lathum

Sorry. I often forget how morally and intellectually superior you are to the rest of us who exist a few planes below you.

I love the witty intellectual debates we have here on FOFC.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

On the hard to comprehend bit, I guess that just depends on how willing we are to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we view the world in a 'there's no valid reason for people to have differnet opinions than I do' or whatever lens, it definitely can be. If we realize just how differently people think at a fundamental level and don't put our views and experiences as inherently superior to others, it's much easier to do so.

OK. I'll put myself in the shoes of a Trump supporter

I hate gays
I hate blacks
I hate women
The election was stolen
I hate the media
I hate brown people and all immigrants except the white ones
I hate education
I hate free lunches for kids
I'm cool with school shootings as long as I get my guns
I hate trans people
cancel culture is bad unless it is something I want cancelled
but Hillary
but hunter
Biden is a criminal mastermind who rigged the election BUT ALSO too feble minded to be POTUS
I hate the environment
I hate SS
Jan 6th was a peaceful loving day

I am probably missing some but yes, when I look at this list I very much feel my views are superior.

edit just to say I am cool with Nazis and The Ukraine is filled with them so Putin is doing Gods work

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz

The number of people who think that aren't even a majority of Trump supporters. One poll by Pew a couple years ago found that 17% of Americans and 37% of Republicans found Trump to be the best President of the last 40 years. In other words, the majority of people who support Trump don't think that. On the hard to comprehend bit, I guess that just depends on how willing we are to try and put ourselves in the shoes of others. If we view the world in a 'there's no valid reason for people to have differnet opinions than I do' or whatever lens, it definitely can be. If we realize just how differently people think at a fundamental level and don't put our views and experiences as inherently superior to others, it's much easier to do so.

I'm pretty sure I know how they think and what they care about. They've been screaming about it for years. There isn't some big mystery here where we need to "put ourselves in their shoes".

[Kodos]

What about Antifa?!

[SirFozzie]

Sarah Palin actually was RIGHT: Well, about one thing (the definition of a cult). not that Trump Supporters aren't actually, you know... a cult.



edit: Just in case the graphic from reddit doesn't show: "“The definition of a cult,” Palin told the rightwing network Newsmax, “is a group of people who are excessively supporting one another and a cause. [It’s] all about conformity and compliance and intolerance of anyone who doesn’t agree with what their mission is.”"

I mean, there's one party who have a pretty big tent from leftwing to moderate (to almost right wing with Manchin), and the other who is like "MAGA OR DIE!"

[GrantDawg]

There used to be a time I could easily put myself in the shoes of the other side. I would very often on here play the devil's advocate on things because I did find people could be pretty dismissive of the other side on issues. It has really become almost to do that now, because one side has just lost any grasp on reality. They are either ignoring the very real danger of the loss of democracy and important basic human rights because they want to pay less taxes, or they have completely lost their minds and believe a grand deep state conspiracy has stolen elections and are coming after them.
No, I just can't understand how people I have known my whole life as loving caring people have become racist, xenophobic gun worshipping nut jobs. Family, friends, business associates, people that were once kind earnest religious people. I can't put their shoes on, because they are no longer wearing them.

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[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Can you imagine the work and coordination white house staff had to pull off to keep his presidency from going off the rails more than it did?

You should read "Trump and His Generals" by Peter Bergen


Basically, the group spent a lot of time behind his back trying to keep him from doing stupid shit that was illegal and against the interests of the country. Also, they did not like him at all, but they felt obligated because of their responsibility to the country.



Probably have to thank John Kelly for most of it.