Kid(s) leaving home - support group - Page 3

Butter · 05-16-2018, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

'Crap I should have turned location on but forgot. What do I do? Do I keep driving with it off and break the rules, or do I break the rules and use my phone to turn it on? Again IF his story is legit, there is a silver lining that he WANTED to follow the rules. He just failed to implement them correctly. Im not sure that I would have punished there for anything. That was a great teaching moment. THIS IS WHY YOU DONT USE YOUR PHONE AND DRIVE. Thank GOD its a flat and a scratch do you see how it coudl have been MUCH worse?

I appreciate your post. And I have to say that I agree with you here up to a point... but it was his overall reaction to this that ticked me off. Not apologetic in the least, I think because of your 2nd point: his point was he was trying to follow the rules and it screwed him.

My point was, it is ok to stop the car or pull off into a safe area and fix your problem instead of trying to do it while moving.

Anyway, he's back driving the car and we've had a couple of days of him running around without incident. He's got graduation practice about 15-20 miles from the house on Friday morning that will be telling to me.

CU Tiger · 05-17-2018, 04:38 PM

You can send him down here to stay a few weeks.

We will let him pinball between the ditches on the back roads until he gets the hang of it.

LOL

So my son is a "car guy" we bought and restored his truck for him before he ever started driving. Got everything the way he wanted except paint. He had the money but I wouldnt let him get it painted. I said 'You are going to run it into a ditch, tree or other car in 2 months like every other kid and first car. 6 months no accidents then you can paint it.'

Hes had it 30 months so far and no issue. Got it painted that December. I get that may not work for a kid that sees a car as a convenience machine and not a work of art...but just spit balling.

Edward64 · 05-19-2018, 08:39 AM

Son went to a transfer student orientation at the other school and he liked it.

Cool with us. Better school for his change in major, it will be cheaper (maybe not first semester because their financial aid deadline is past), and its about 3 hours away (vs 7 hours).

For those experiencing your first college bound kid in the near future, fwiw ...

It does get better after the first 2 weeks (e.g. acceptance)
It's neat to see the kid grow in independence and outside your influence. I can clearly see how college is a "transition" stage
Setup a family group chat with your college bound kid 1-2 years out and start using it as a family. It definitely helped us when he responded to family chats
I am starting to think now of where he will find his first job & live

JonInMiddleGA · 05-19-2018, 05:39 PM

And my home-for-the-summer kid locked in his summer internship with an interview with an attorney down in Gwinnett County.

Plans call for his experience to include everything from converting old paper records into electronic form (brilliant plan for that: the boxes of paper currently cover what will be his desk for the summer, the sooner he finishes, the sooner he has his own desk lol), to doing boilerplate requests for continuances to as many days in the courtroom as end up feasible.

The firm are all former ADA's, with a summer trial slate of murder, rape, and armed robbery, all in different counties/jurisdictions.

If the drive into traffic hell on the regular doesn't kill him, it should be a darned productive & educational summer.

Edward64 · 05-23-2018, 09:31 AM

Different take on kids leaving home.

Good for the parents. You can kinda understand it for the first couple years (e.g. effects of the Great Recession) but this kid is obviously a good for nothing bum.

I hope the parents write him out of their will.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/22/us/ju...rnd/index.html

Quote:

A 30-year-old man didn't get the message that it was time to move out of his parents' home, even after they left him five notices and an offer of cash to help find new digs.

The New York family drama eventually rolled into the court system, where a judge on Tuesday ruled in the parents' favor and ordered Michael Rotondo to leave after having a room for eight years.

But Rotondo contends he is owed a six-month notice.

"I just wanted a reasonable amount of time to vacate, with consideration to the fact that I was not really prepared to support myself at the time of the notices," he told CNN affiliate WSTM.
:
:
He claimed that for the past eight years he "has never been expected to contribute to household expenses, or assisted with chores and the maintenance of the premises, and claims that this is simply a component of his living agreement," according to filings obtained by CNN affiliate WSTM.

Judge: 'I think the notice is sufficient'

During the hearing on Tuesday, Michael represented himself and cited the case of Kosa v. Legg: "that there is 'Common law requirement of six-month notice to quit before tenant may be removed through ejectment action."

But New York State Supreme Court Judge Donald Greenwood disagreed.
"I'm granting the eviction," he said. "I think the notice is sufficient."

After court, Rotondo told reporters he plans to appeal the case and finds the ruling "ridiculous."

"It seems to me like I should be provided with, you know, 30 days or so, because generally you get 30 days after you're found, you know, to have to vacate the premises," he said. "So I'm expecting something like that. But realistically, if that's not the case, I don't know."

Edward64 · 07-20-2018, 10:29 PM

My son has officially transferred to another college with a different major. Its much closer to home (about 3-3.5 hrs vs 7-7.5 hrs) so easy driving distance for a 3 day weekend.

He did okay first semester but did much better second semester. He kinda realized his original major was not for him. Perfectly okay, I do think the new major is good also. Both were/are in STEM.

Most of his classes transferred over to fill the electives requirements for the new major. Biggest problem is no scholarships for this semester because of timing. Hoping for scholarships in the Spring semester.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-25-2018, 06:35 AM

You want a kind of odd sensation?

See your kid off to an airport shuttle for a flight to Chicago for a week of (fraternity) business.

He'll be fine of course, but it's a pretty stark example of "yeah, he's grown".

Edward64 · 07-25-2018, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

You want a kind of odd sensation?

See your kid off to an airport shuttle for a flight to Chicago for a week of (fraternity) business.

He'll be fine of course, but it's a pretty stark example of "yeah, he's grown".

Took my son shooting the other day. We've gone shooting with the pistol before but this was the first time with the AR. Proud that he was very careful with the weapons at the range.

I had him clean the weapons in the back deck. He took his time and was pretty conscientious about it.

Not a big, big deal but I like to think I am teaching him a valuable and "tangible" skill that he will use rest of his life.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-01-2018, 12:55 AM

And then there's the other side of kids growing up ... like having a 5p flight from CHI to ATL delayed repeatedly, then making it to the final shuttle back to Athens by - quite literally - about 30 seconds.

That's what happens when you're sitting on the runway for more than an hour before getting a gate. So his departure that started at about 3 at O'Haire should finally end, give or take, about 230a back here in Athens.

"I'm never EVER flying American again"

I think my reluctance to deal with going places is going to have a whole new light for him after this

JonInMiddleGA · 08-12-2018, 05:36 PM

The final weekend-at-home is now wrapping up, he heads back this coming Saturday.

I will share one simple fact that I find (no pun really intended) sobering.

I don't think he's had a single drink in over a week. He's had 2 in the past month. Some of that is, of course, environmental. Aaaaand some of it ain't.

Last thing he said before crashing last night (well, this morning) after watching the G1 Climax Final "I don't wanna go back to Oxford". Not in a comically whiny tone or anything, just very matter of fact.

It's beyond wonderful to know that your grown child still enjoys & appreciates simply being at home ... and it's a gut punch to know they aren't particularly more enthused about leaving than you are about them leaving.

I'm sorry folks but, honestly, this doesn't seems to get any easier to me from one year to the next.

tarcone · 08-12-2018, 05:39 PM

Daughter was moving things to the pack pile today. Kind of hit home.

Thursday is the big day.

JonInMiddleGA · 08-12-2018, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarcone

Daughter was moving things to the pack pile today. Kind of hit home. Thursday is the big day.

Unsolicited advice (not so much at you, just a general thought):

Be as upbeat as you can manage to fake. This shit often ain't a whole lot easier on them than it is on us old folks.

Edward64 · 08-12-2018, 09:09 PM

If not already, setup a group chat with her and rest of family.

My son returns in a week and half. Its been a good summer and don't expect him leaving again to be that big of a deal (he has transferred and is alot closer now).

Butter · 08-13-2018, 07:39 AM

T-minus 10 days to move in. We've definitely had our ups and downs this summer, but the day is approaching. I still think we're looking forward to it and so is he... moreso that than dreading him leaving. It's like a bad relationship, we all need some time apart, I think. He needs to live on his own and see what it's like.

Ksyrup · 08-13-2018, 07:47 AM

Caitlin goes back on the 23rd. We are driving down on the 24th to bring the rest of her stuff and attend the coach's annual meet-and-greet dinner at his house.

I don't think it will be much of a big deal this year, although my wife will probably have a hard time still. I'll just be glad to separate Caitlin and Mackenzie, truthfully - they really don't get along and I'm sick of listening to it in the house.

cuervo72 · 08-13-2018, 11:14 PM

Dropped off at Purdue over the weekend, drove home yesterday.

Saying goodbye was not an isolated, touching, movie-like setting. We were in the middle of about 200 band kids swarming around the depths of a 75-year-old music building, nervously practicing before opening auditions. So some hugs and a short goodbye before he hurried to the band room.

I haven't given it much thought and have been busy in the day since. It'll sink in more at some point I'm sure; I teared up a few times in the lead-up (oh, like during the Bao short before Incredibles 2). Bound to happen again.

I still have my daughter at home which I'm sure will make things somewhat easier.

tarcone · 08-16-2018, 05:38 PM

Move in day is over and our daughter is in college.

We are back home and kind of wandering around. Looking at her room and we are amazed that we can see the floor. What a sad feeling.

Hard to leave her. And it is setting in she is gone. Kind of tearing up as I write this.

Im very excited for her. And I hope she excels.

Edward64 · 08-16-2018, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarcone

Move in day is over and our daughter is in college.

We are back home and kind of wandering around. Looking at her room and we are amazed that we can see the floor. What a sad feeling.

Hard to leave her. And it is setting in she is gone. Kind of tearing up as I write this.

Im very excited for her. And I hope she excels.

I feel for you. Give it a week, it'll get better.

Edward64 · 09-23-2018, 08:45 AM

Kid is enjoying the new university. Found a job (his first paying) and texted a picture of his first check. Pretty sure he likes it better, different degree and definitely not as intense as the first university. Still in the STEM field so pretty happy.

Butter · 11-14-2018, 12:08 PM

Update from Post #84:

My son has not done particularly well. He LOVES the part of college that is him living on his own and making his own decisions and such.

He does not love the class part. He is taking 13 credit hours at this point after dropping a class, and I fully expect him to fail at least 2 of the 4 full time classes he is taking. BGSU has an option to take classes as Pass/Fail which don't count against your GPA.

He has finally come clean to me about this after hemming and hawing for months about grades. He blames it on depression. "Dad, I was so depressed some days I wouldn't even get out of bed".

But when I ask him about was he attending class every other day that he was able even if he didn't feel like it, he said no.

He was not taking his medicine on a regular basis, and still isn't. I know this because he went up with a 30-day supply and has not gotten any refills since late August.

He blew through about $1000 in "meal plan" money in the first month. He got a job at Wendy's, then quit after 2 weeks, then got a job on campus in his dorm at a food place and has kept that one. He still has "meal swipes" that he is rationing out which work out to about 1.5 meals a day for the rest of the semester.

He broke his phone at one point, which his mom and I did replace. Other than that, we have held fast to not giving him any financial support really...I told him going in that we were getting him the best meal plan, and putting enough on his campus account to make copies of papers and stuff all semester, and it was up to him to portion it out. He was broke by early October.

He has told me a few stories about how there were things he'd like to do but he couldn't because he's broke, my reply has basically been sorry about your luck but you shouldn't have blown 4 months' worth of money in a single month.

When we talked about next semester's schedule, he sent it to me after meeting with his advisor. Then he sent a revised one to me without "classes that I know I wouldn't do the work in" which included one in his major. I said if you aren't going to do work in your major, then what are we doing here? He added it back in, grudgingly.

I have suggested that he should use this last month to try to get back on track. I don't know if he's doing that, I imagine I will see on the report card in mid-December.

He is doing so poorly in school, in fact, that he is almost resigned to the fact that we will ask him to come back and go to community college after winter break. My wife and I haven't decided what we will do, but personally I want him to go back for another semester to see if he can apply any life lessons at all from semester 1 to semester 2. But I am not optimistic about it.

He loves the being on his own part, but seems far from willing to take on anything that resembles "hard work" at this point to straighten things out.

So there's that. I guess we'll have another update in January. The thing I'm wondering now is what I do if he comes back home intending to go back in January, but we end up deciding he should come home.

JonInMiddleGA · 11-14-2018, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter

When we talked about next semester's schedule, he sent it to me after meeting with his advisor. Then he sent a revised one to me without "classes that I know I wouldn't do the work in" which included one in his major. I said if you aren't going to do work in your major, then what are we doing here? He added it back in, grudgingly.

One possible silver lining: better to figure out a "wrong major" situation as a freshman than as a junior or senior. The latter seems to happen a lot (roughly 1/3rd of all 4 yr undergrads change majors, as high as 50% in some subjects)

In my abbreviated college career, the only class I ever dropped was one in my intended major ... and I knew within 15 minutes of the first session that the class would be a complete disaster for me.

JonInMiddleGA · 11-14-2018, 12:22 PM

Kid departs school late Friday heading home for Thanksgiving. (they get the full week). His comment last night was that he couldn't wait to get home ... and sit down in front of the electric heater I keep down here in the batcave.

Yesterday was 34 degrees with a second day of heavy rain.

Me: but your apartment is pretty new, it ought to be fairly snug
Him: I live with Yankees that think 66 is a perfectly reasonable temp to set the thermostat !

#HomeIsWhereTheHeaterIs

Butter · 11-14-2018, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

One possible silver lining: better to figure out a "wrong major" situation as a freshman than as a junior or senior. The latter seems to happen a lot (roughly 1/3rd of all 4 yr undergrads change majors, as high as 50% in some subjects)

In my abbreviated college career, the only class I ever dropped was one in my intended major ... and I knew within 15 minutes of the first session that the class would be a complete disaster for me.

It's a fair point. However, semester 2 is one where he is switching into a new major... journalism from sports management. Because he wants to go into sports announcing/reporting. This from somebody who doesn't like to write. It was a journalism class he dropped.

Edward64 · 11-14-2018, 04:03 PM

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

I wouldn't normally recommend this for college/bound kids but would a gap year be good for him? I would be scared of my kid liking it so much he won't finish college but in your situation it may be an option to consider.

Gap year means joining the Peace Corp, doing community service, getting a trade job somewhere vs playing Xbox/PS4. And if not, consider a trade school vs 4 year college?

stevew · 11-14-2018, 05:26 PM

Kids transferring totally sucks, just another round of bullshit deposits and more $$$$ flowing.

JonInMiddleGA · 11-14-2018, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter

Because he wants to go into sports announcing/reporting. This from somebody who doesn't like to write. It was a journalism class he dropped.

Umm ... yeah, I got nothing.

Butter · 11-14-2018, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Umm ... yeah, I got nothing.

Me neither

spleen1015 · 11-14-2018, 09:02 PM

Just my 2 cents...

I think your son just needs to figure out who he is.

My son tried CC after he graduated and struggled. He was just tired of going to school. College wasn't his thing. So, we made him get a job. Well it took him a looooong time to get a job. He applied at every fast food joint in town and never got a job.

He ended up getting a job working in a call center. His job literally listening to people talk to the voice activated calls and pressing the right button to send them where they wanted to go. He excelled at it. He was paid based on how quick and accurate he was. After like 2 months he was getting the highest scores out of every one. After a year they promoted him to a team lead position and it wasn't for him. He was an asshole to his team so they demoted him and he ended up quitting over that.

He immediately got a job at an Amazon vendor working in their warehouse. He did that job for about 3 years. Now he's a security guard for one of the big companies in town. He a shift leader there and doing well.

He's 25, lives on his own, pays his bills, pulls extra shifts when he's bored. We made him move out when he was 23 just so he could move forward with life.

He just had to figure things out.

Good luck to your son.

tarcone · 11-14-2018, 10:01 PM

Butter, I was in the same boat. College was just a gap to keep me from growing up. It took me a better part of my 20s to "grow up" I think I was handicapped by my parents, but thats another story.

You could go hard core and cut him off. If he likes living "on his own", let him. Let him drop out and experience the real world. He may become a much better student.

tarcone · 11-14-2018, 10:05 PM

my freshman has just joined a sorority. Ironically, it is the chapter my Mom was in at Kansas. Pretty crazy my daughter is now a legacy. She is flourishing socially. Academically she is doing well. Over a 3.0.

On to my junior in HS. We visited Missouri S and T, Saturday. She LOVED it. She has decided she wants to major in Aerospace Engineering. And you guys thought I was stupid.

They are a D 2 basketball program. And it is a public school. And one of the better engineering schools in the nation, if not the world.

I checked their basketball roster. No one over 6' 2 ". We list pour daughter at 6'3". Im optimistic for some free college with her.

cuervo72 · 11-14-2018, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tarcone

And it is a public school. And one of the better engineering schools in the nation, if not the world.

Top 70, anyway.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...ring-doctorate

tarcone · 11-14-2018, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Top 70, anyway.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...ring-doctorate

Which is okay. They have an enrollment of about 6000 and profs from Illinopis and Michigan.

And they have a D 2 BB program. Free school is my favorite.

cuervo72 · 11-14-2018, 10:59 PM

There is absolutely something to be said for free.

tarcone · 11-14-2018, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Top 70, anyway.

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...ring-doctorate

And those rankings are based on Undergrad programs that have doctorate programs.

Missouri S and T does mot offer a lot of Doctorate programs.

Im not sure if your rankings matter.

cuervo72 · 11-14-2018, 11:07 PM

Rankings are indeed subjective.

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone (outside of Missouri) putting S&T in the upper echelon of engineering schools though. But for value, that may not matter. Believe me, that's something I've internally grappled with.

tarcone · 11-14-2018, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cuervo72

Rankings are indeed subjective.

I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone (outside of Missouri) putting S&T in the upper echelon of engineering schools though. But for value, that may not matter. Believe me, that's something I've internally grappled with.

it is a state school. They showed a value of education. Very high, This is a state school $20k a year with room and board. Average starting salary is in the mid 60k.

They have a satellite going up in a couple years. That was a senior project. They created a satallite never invented.

Im telling you, this is a super high quality enginering school.

Edward64 · 11-23-2018, 09:02 AM

Good to have the son back home. We did some yard work yesterday!

Had some stories to tell, more with his job than school. He changed major with the transfer and is definitely enjoying it more.

Edward64 · 11-25-2018, 07:21 PM

Kid went back to college early afternoon. Enjoyed his time with us. Non-eventful when he left, our new normal.

JeeberD · 11-26-2018, 02:53 PM

For Butter:

This may not be what you want to hear, but college may not be the right situation for him right now. What he's going through sounds a lot like what I went through at that age. I struggled at Colorado State and convinced my parents that if I went to UTEP (which had become out-of-state since my dad retired in Colorado) that I would do better. I did...for a semester. A couple more semesters of struggling and I moved to Abilene, to live with a buddy. Attended some CC there before moving to Denton to attend UNT. Here in DFW I was in and out of various schools for a number of years, shifting between majors/programs.

I always did well at my jobs (always made it to some level of management), and when I moved to DFW I started working at Olive Garden. I wound up working there for 13 years. While I was there, my wife and I got married, I got promoted to a manager, and then my wife and I had a son. It was then that I realized that the restaurant life wasn't going to work for me. I always wanted to be the dad who was there for the family, who would coach his son's baseball team, etc. I couldn't do that working for OG. So I went back to school at the age of 33 and kicked some serious ass. Over the next three years I got all A's, except for one high B, and earned an AS then a BBA. That helped me to get an 8-5 gig that paid well.

It sucked that I was 13 years older than I should have been at that stage in my career, and it still kind of sucks. But I was motivated to do well because I had a reason that *I* was passionate about. That made all the difference. I wasn't going to school because my parents wanted me to. Or because it was expected of me. Or because my girlfriend/wife wanted me to. I was doing it because of ME.

If school isn't for him right now, I don't think that you should force the issue. Of course, that's easy for me to say...we'll see what I saw when my now 9-year old boy is in college. If he's able to be successful at work, support and encourage him there. Maybe point out some of the ways that school would help him to be successful in things that he is passionate about, but don't be overbearing. Let him decide for himself when the time is right.

Edward64 · 05-01-2019, 11:46 PM

College year is over for the kid. He has a job and will also be taking summer school (because of his transfer to new school and degree, he'll have to take summer school to graduate in 4 years).

Going to visit some friends and then come back for a week before starting the summer sessions. Hard to think of him as a junior next year and no longer a teen.

Re-reading this thread, it is still hard to think of us not being "that family" anymore but it has gotten better.

stevew · 05-01-2019, 11:59 PM

Mine comes home next weds. She's on pace to finish a semester early.

JonInMiddleGA · 05-02-2019, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward64

College year is over for the kid.

We've got another week left (he's home next Thursday - the first time in college that he hasn't had a Friday exam) and then it's one year of undergrad to go.

This is going to be a strange & likely stressful summer. He's home for basically a month then it's off to Ireland for a summer program (as well as working on research for his senior thesis). Wife is going over with him about two weeks early to do some touristy stuff in the U.K. and then deposit him there for most of the summer. And for a first-time Euro / overseas traveler, there feels like a shit-ton to do/get sorted out/prepare for.

So that's basically mid-June to late July. He comes back via NYC & will tourist the city with one of his roommates (a NY local) for a few days, then he's literally home for like a day & then off to Little Rock for the national meeting of some honors fraternity or something. And then it's home for like a week & back to start his senior year.

The arrival of his passport this week seemed to suddenly turn the light on about how little he's home this summer & he's not the happiest camper with that realization.

And over the next year we have the LSAT to deal with plus settling on his law school pick.

I think we all have a feeling that the next 12 months may be a wilder ride than the last 36 months.

spleen1015 · 05-02-2019, 07:30 AM

My son is 26 years old. He has been trying to join the military since he graduated HS. He had tried every branch and was turned down because he was ADHD as a kid.

About 2-3 years ago, he met a friend of his uncle's who is an Air Force recruiter. He talked to the recruiter about his situation and the recruiter told him that he thought he could get him in.

So, finally, after 8 years, this kid will finally live his dream, follow in the footsteps of his parents, 2 uncles and grandfathers and serve in the United States Air Force.

As if the 8 year wait wasn't long enough, his flight on Tuesday from Indy to Dallas got cancelled so he had to wait another day. Then yesterday, his flight got cancelled again but this time he took another flight to Charlotte then on to San Antonio. I got a text at 11:42 last night letting me know he was on the ground in San Antonio. Soon after he turned off his phone.

This morning I wake up feeling very excited and anxious. As of this time I know he's up and going through the first day of basic training and I can't stop smiling.

Edward64 · 05-02-2019, 07:45 AM

Nice. Good luck to him (and you with separation anxiety!)

Butter · 05-02-2019, 09:03 AM

Update from me:

The year of living away and by himself at college was unsuccessful from a school standpoint. I think he will have failed over half of the classes he attempted. He has changed his major at least 3 times. He will be coming home to get a job and go to community college starting this summer.

I think he has grown a fair bit. But he is still a long way from being able to live on his own and do completely for himself. In talking with him fairly extensively over the past few weeks, I think he's in a good place for coming home. I am obviously not happy with the expense we incurred for the year for him to "find himself". I hope I am happy with the ultimate result, but we shall see.

In the end, I am glad we gave him the chance as I think I would've regretted it. But ultimately our intuition was correct, he was not ready for a fully independent college experience.

CU Tiger · 05-02-2019, 09:27 AM

Man this thread gets me every time I see it.
Y'all can laugh at me, I'll take it.

But in my "real" life...I dont know that Ive ever discussed feelings, how I feel, what I fear, what makes me happy etc more than 3 times in my adult life. Just not something Im comfortable doing.

But my son graduates high school on June 7th. On June 8th he and I leave for a 7 day road trip (For any car guys the Hotrod Power Tour) in a classic we've restored together over the past 4 years...(that coincidentally we are bringing home as finished from our shop today)...We get home on the 15th and he reports to school on the 17th.

The road trip is going to be fun. It was his idea. Instead of a senior trip he said 'Can we do this?"....so of course I said yes.

But man...my vision is getting blurry just typing this. I aint ready for him to leave. He is a great kid. He will be fine. Ive parented him hard, I still do even at 18 and 6" and 70lbs bigger than me I still mold him everyday to try and re-enforce right and wrong. But on top of that.

He's my best friend.

Hell it aint much of a stretch at this point to say he may be my only friend.
I'm excited for him and for the chance to watch him take the next step and to see him fulfill a dream...I'm excited for him and anxious for me.
I know that's selfish of me..and Id never let him know I feel this way.

But damn...Im not looking forward to him not being here.

spleen1015 · 05-02-2019, 09:36 AM

My daughter is not handling her brother leaving very well. He's 26. She's 16. He did move out 4 years ago when we pretty much made him, but he only lived 2 miles away. So, he has always been around for his sister. He's always gone to watch her play softball when games are local etc. He still came over 1-2 times a week and had dinner with us.

She's a young, emotional teenager. She understands that he needs to go off do his thing & find his own way. But at the same time, she doesn't know life without him being around.

I feel for all of the parents in this thread. I'm not going to do well when my daughter goes off to college in 2 years even though she's likely going to be 45 minutes up the road.

JonInMiddleGA · 05-02-2019, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I got a text at 11:42 last night letting me know he was on the ground in San Antonio. Soon after he turned off his phone.

...

Very cool, thanks for sharing that.

JonInMiddleGA · 05-02-2019, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

Hell it aint much of a stretch at this point to say he may be my only friend.

Been there.

Quote:

But damn...Im not looking forward to him not being here.

I hate to say it but it's gonna get a good bit worse before it gets better. I still don't know that it actually "gets better" so much as you simply get more used to it.

Edward64 · 05-03-2019, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Butter

Update from me:

The year of living away and by himself at college was unsuccessful from a school standpoint. I think he will have failed over half of the classes he attempted. He has changed his major at least 3 times. He will be coming home to get a job and go to community college starting this summer.

I think he has grown a fair bit. But he is still a long way from being able to live on his own and do completely for himself. In talking with him fairly extensively over the past few weeks, I think he's in a good place for coming home. I am obviously not happy with the expense we incurred for the year for him to "find himself". I hope I am happy with the ultimate result, but we shall see.

In the end, I am glad we gave him the chance as I think I would've regretted it. But ultimately our intuition was correct, he was not ready for a fully independent college experience.

Sorry to hear about your worries about your son. Getting a job and going to community college sounds like a good plan.

It doesn't sound as if he has a major/career in mind so what will he enroll in? and is he interested in finding any particular job?

Just a thought and dependent on your financial situation, but possibly put him up in an apartment close by when he has a job for some independence?

05-19-2018, 08:39 AM	#103
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Son went to a transfer student orientation at the other school and he liked it. Cool with us. Better school for his change in major, it will be cheaper (maybe not first semester because their financial aid deadline is past), and its about 3 hours away (vs 7 hours). For those experiencing your first college bound kid in the near future, fwiw ... It does get better after the first 2 weeks (e.g. acceptance) It's neat to see the kid grow in independence and outside your influence. I can clearly see how college is a "transition" stage Setup a family group chat with your college bound kid 1-2 years out and start using it as a family. It definitely helped us when he responded to family chats I am starting to think now of where he will find his first job & live Last edited by Edward64 : 05-19-2018 at 08:45 AM.

05-19-2018, 05:39 PM	#104
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	And my home-for-the-summer kid locked in his summer internship with an interview with an attorney down in Gwinnett County. Plans call for his experience to include everything from converting old paper records into electronic form (brilliant plan for that: the boxes of paper currently cover what will be his desk for the summer, the sooner he finishes, the sooner he has his own desk lol), to doing boilerplate requests for continuances to as many days in the courtroom as end up feasible. The firm are all former ADA's, with a summer trial slate of murder, rape, and armed robbery, all in different counties/jurisdictions. If the drive into traffic hell on the regular doesn't kill him, it should be a darned productive & educational summer. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

07-25-2018, 06:35 AM	#107
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	You want a kind of odd sensation? See your kid off to an airport shuttle for a flight to Chicago for a week of (fraternity) business. He'll be fine of course, but it's a pretty stark example of "yeah, he's grown". __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

08-01-2018, 12:55 AM	#109
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	And then there's the other side of kids growing up ... like having a 5p flight from CHI to ATL delayed repeatedly, then making it to the final shuttle back to Athens by - quite literally - about 30 seconds. That's what happens when you're sitting on the runway for more than an hour before getting a gate. So his departure that started at about 3 at O'Haire should finally end, give or take, about 230a back here in Athens. "I'm never EVER flying American again" I think my reluctance to deal with going places is going to have a whole new light for him after this __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

08-12-2018, 05:36 PM	#110
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	The final weekend-at-home is now wrapping up, he heads back this coming Saturday. I will share one simple fact that I find (no pun really intended) sobering. I don't think he's had a single drink in over a week. He's had 2 in the past month. Some of that is, of course, environmental. Aaaaand some of it ain't. Last thing he said before crashing last night (well, this morning) after watching the G1 Climax Final "I don't wanna go back to Oxford". Not in a comically whiny tone or anything, just very matter of fact. It's beyond wonderful to know that your grown child still enjoys & appreciates simply being at home ... and it's a gut punch to know they aren't particularly more enthused about leaving than you are about them leaving. I'm sorry folks but, honestly, this doesn't seems to get any easier to me from one year to the next. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 08-12-2018 at 05:39 PM.

05-17-2018, 04:38 PM	#102
CU Tiger Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Backwoods, SC	You can send him down here to stay a few weeks. We will let him pinball between the ditches on the back roads until he gets the hang of it. LOL So my son is a "car guy" we bought and restored his truck for him before he ever started driving. Got everything the way he wanted except paint. He had the money but I wouldnt let him get it painted. I said 'You are going to run it into a ditch, tree or other car in 2 months like every other kid and first car. 6 months no accidents then you can paint it.' Hes had it 30 months so far and no issue. Got it painted that December. I get that may not work for a kid that sees a car as a convenience machine and not a work of art...but just spit balling.

07-20-2018, 10:29 PM	#106
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	My son has officially transferred to another college with a different major. Its much closer to home (about 3-3.5 hrs vs 7-7.5 hrs) so easy driving distance for a 3 day weekend. He did okay first semester but did much better second semester. He kinda realized his original major was not for him. Perfectly okay, I do think the new major is good also. Both were/are in STEM. Most of his classes transferred over to fill the electives requirements for the new major. Biggest problem is no scholarships for this semester because of timing. Hoping for scholarships in the Spring semester.

08-12-2018, 05:39 PM	#111
tarcone Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pacific	Daughter was moving things to the pack pile today. Kind of hit home. Thursday is the big day. __________________ Excuses are for wusses- Spencer Lee Punting is Winning- Tory Taylor The word is Fight! Fight! Fight! For Iowa FOFC 30 Dollar Challenge Champion-OOTP '15

08-12-2018, 09:09 PM	#113
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	If not already, setup a group chat with her and rest of family. My son returns in a week and half. Its been a good summer and don't expect him leaving again to be that big of a deal (he has transferred and is alot closer now).

08-13-2018, 07:39 AM	#114
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	T-minus 10 days to move in. We've definitely had our ups and downs this summer, but the day is approaching. I still think we're looking forward to it and so is he... moreso that than dreading him leaving. It's like a bad relationship, we all need some time apart, I think. He needs to live on his own and see what it's like. __________________ My listening habits

08-13-2018, 07:47 AM	#115
Ksyrup This guy has posted so much, his fingers are about to fall off. Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: In Absentia	Caitlin goes back on the 23rd. We are driving down on the 24th to bring the rest of her stuff and attend the coach's annual meet-and-greet dinner at his house. I don't think it will be much of a big deal this year, although my wife will probably have a hard time still. I'll just be glad to separate Caitlin and Mackenzie, truthfully - they really don't get along and I'm sick of listening to it in the house. __________________ M's pitcher Miguel Batista: "Now, I feel like I've had everything. I've talked pitching with Sandy Koufax, had Kenny G play for me. Maybe if I could have an interview with God, then I'd be served. I'd be complete." Last edited by Ksyrup : 08-13-2018 at 07:47 AM.

08-13-2018, 11:14 PM	#116
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	Dropped off at Purdue over the weekend, drove home yesterday. Saying goodbye was not an isolated, touching, movie-like setting. We were in the middle of about 200 band kids swarming around the depths of a 75-year-old music building, nervously practicing before opening auditions. So some hugs and a short goodbye before he hurried to the band room. I haven't given it much thought and have been busy in the day since. It'll sink in more at some point I'm sure; I teared up a few times in the lead-up (oh, like during the Bao short before Incredibles 2). Bound to happen again. I still have my daughter at home which I'm sure will make things somewhat easier. __________________ null

08-16-2018, 05:38 PM	#117
tarcone Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pacific	Move in day is over and our daughter is in college. We are back home and kind of wandering around. Looking at her room and we are amazed that we can see the floor. What a sad feeling. Hard to leave her. And it is setting in she is gone. Kind of tearing up as I write this. Im very excited for her. And I hope she excels. __________________ Excuses are for wusses- Spencer Lee Punting is Winning- Tory Taylor The word is Fight! Fight! Fight! For Iowa FOFC 30 Dollar Challenge Champion-OOTP '15

09-23-2018, 08:45 AM	#119
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Kid is enjoying the new university. Found a job (his first paying) and texted a picture of his first check. Pretty sure he likes it better, different degree and definitely not as intense as the first university. Still in the STEM field so pretty happy.

11-14-2018, 12:08 PM	#120
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Update from Post #84: My son has not done particularly well. He LOVES the part of college that is him living on his own and making his own decisions and such. He does not love the class part. He is taking 13 credit hours at this point after dropping a class, and I fully expect him to fail at least 2 of the 4 full time classes he is taking. BGSU has an option to take classes as Pass/Fail which don't count against your GPA. He has finally come clean to me about this after hemming and hawing for months about grades. He blames it on depression. "Dad, I was so depressed some days I wouldn't even get out of bed". But when I ask him about was he attending class every other day that he was able even if he didn't feel like it, he said no. He was not taking his medicine on a regular basis, and still isn't. I know this because he went up with a 30-day supply and has not gotten any refills since late August. He blew through about $1000 in "meal plan" money in the first month. He got a job at Wendy's, then quit after 2 weeks, then got a job on campus in his dorm at a food place and has kept that one. He still has "meal swipes" that he is rationing out which work out to about 1.5 meals a day for the rest of the semester. He broke his phone at one point, which his mom and I did replace. Other than that, we have held fast to not giving him any financial support really...I told him going in that we were getting him the best meal plan, and putting enough on his campus account to make copies of papers and stuff all semester, and it was up to him to portion it out. He was broke by early October. He has told me a few stories about how there were things he'd like to do but he couldn't because he's broke, my reply has basically been sorry about your luck but you shouldn't have blown 4 months' worth of money in a single month. When we talked about next semester's schedule, he sent it to me after meeting with his advisor. Then he sent a revised one to me without "classes that I know I wouldn't do the work in" which included one in his major. I said if you aren't going to do work in your major, then what are we doing here? He added it back in, grudgingly. I have suggested that he should use this last month to try to get back on track. I don't know if he's doing that, I imagine I will see on the report card in mid-December. He is doing so poorly in school, in fact, that he is almost resigned to the fact that we will ask him to come back and go to community college after winter break. My wife and I haven't decided what we will do, but personally I want him to go back for another semester to see if he can apply any life lessons at all from semester 1 to semester 2. But I am not optimistic about it. He loves the being on his own part, but seems far from willing to take on anything that resembles "hard work" at this point to straighten things out. So there's that. I guess we'll have another update in January. The thing I'm wondering now is what I do if he comes back home intending to go back in January, but we end up deciding he should come home. __________________ My listening habits Last edited by Butter : 11-14-2018 at 12:09 PM.

11-14-2018, 12:22 PM	#122
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Kid departs school late Friday heading home for Thanksgiving. (they get the full week). His comment last night was that he couldn't wait to get home ... and sit down in front of the electric heater I keep down here in the batcave. Yesterday was 34 degrees with a second day of heavy rain. Me: but your apartment is pretty new, it ought to be fairly snug Him: I live with Yankees that think 66 is a perfectly reasonable temp to set the thermostat ! #HomeIsWhereTheHeaterIs __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 11-14-2018 at 12:23 PM.

11-14-2018, 04:03 PM	#124
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Sorry to hear about your troubles. I wouldn't normally recommend this for college/bound kids but would a gap year be good for him? I would be scared of my kid liking it so much he won't finish college but in your situation it may be an option to consider. Gap year means joining the Peace Corp, doing community service, getting a trade job somewhere vs playing Xbox/PS4. And if not, consider a trade school vs 4 year college?

11-14-2018, 05:26 PM	#125
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Kids transferring totally sucks, just another round of bullshit deposits and more $$$$ flowing.

11-14-2018, 09:02 PM	#128
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	Just my 2 cents... I think your son just needs to figure out who he is. My son tried CC after he graduated and struggled. He was just tired of going to school. College wasn't his thing. So, we made him get a job. Well it took him a looooong time to get a job. He applied at every fast food joint in town and never got a job. He ended up getting a job working in a call center. His job literally listening to people talk to the voice activated calls and pressing the right button to send them where they wanted to go. He excelled at it. He was paid based on how quick and accurate he was. After like 2 months he was getting the highest scores out of every one. After a year they promoted him to a team lead position and it wasn't for him. He was an asshole to his team so they demoted him and he ended up quitting over that. He immediately got a job at an Amazon vendor working in their warehouse. He did that job for about 3 years. Now he's a security guard for one of the big companies in town. He a shift leader there and doing well. He's 25, lives on his own, pays his bills, pulls extra shifts when he's bored. We made him move out when he was 23 just so he could move forward with life. He just had to figure things out. Good luck to your son. __________________ Why choose failure when success is an option?

11-14-2018, 10:01 PM	#129
tarcone Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pacific	Butter, I was in the same boat. College was just a gap to keep me from growing up. It took me a better part of my 20s to "grow up" I think I was handicapped by my parents, but thats another story. You could go hard core and cut him off. If he likes living "on his own", let him. Let him drop out and experience the real world. He may become a much better student. __________________ Excuses are for wusses- Spencer Lee Punting is Winning- Tory Taylor The word is Fight! Fight! Fight! For Iowa FOFC 30 Dollar Challenge Champion-OOTP '15

11-14-2018, 10:05 PM	#130
tarcone Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pacific	my freshman has just joined a sorority. Ironically, it is the chapter my Mom was in at Kansas. Pretty crazy my daughter is now a legacy. She is flourishing socially. Academically she is doing well. Over a 3.0. On to my junior in HS. We visited Missouri S and T, Saturday. She LOVED it. She has decided she wants to major in Aerospace Engineering. And you guys thought I was stupid. They are a D 2 basketball program. And it is a public school. And one of the better engineering schools in the nation, if not the world. I checked their basketball roster. No one over 6' 2 ". We list pour daughter at 6'3". Im optimistic for some free college with her. __________________ Excuses are for wusses- Spencer Lee Punting is Winning- Tory Taylor The word is Fight! Fight! Fight! For Iowa FOFC 30 Dollar Challenge Champion-OOTP '15

11-14-2018, 10:59 PM	#133
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	There is absolutely something to be said for free. __________________ null

11-14-2018, 11:07 PM	#135
cuervo72 Head Coach Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maryland	Rankings are indeed subjective. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone (outside of Missouri) putting S&T in the upper echelon of engineering schools though. But for value, that may not matter. Believe me, that's something I've internally grappled with. __________________ null

11-23-2018, 09:02 AM	#137
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Good to have the son back home. We did some yard work yesterday! Had some stories to tell, more with his job than school. He changed major with the transfer and is definitely enjoying it more.

11-25-2018, 07:21 PM	#138
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Kid went back to college early afternoon. Enjoyed his time with us. Non-eventful when he left, our new normal.

11-26-2018, 02:53 PM	#139
JeeberD General Manager Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The Town of Flower Mound	For Butter: This may not be what you want to hear, but college may not be the right situation for him right now. What he's going through sounds a lot like what I went through at that age. I struggled at Colorado State and convinced my parents that if I went to UTEP (which had become out-of-state since my dad retired in Colorado) that I would do better. I did...for a semester. A couple more semesters of struggling and I moved to Abilene, to live with a buddy. Attended some CC there before moving to Denton to attend UNT. Here in DFW I was in and out of various schools for a number of years, shifting between majors/programs. I always did well at my jobs (always made it to some level of management), and when I moved to DFW I started working at Olive Garden. I wound up working there for 13 years. While I was there, my wife and I got married, I got promoted to a manager, and then my wife and I had a son. It was then that I realized that the restaurant life wasn't going to work for me. I always wanted to be the dad who was there for the family, who would coach his son's baseball team, etc. I couldn't do that working for OG. So I went back to school at the age of 33 and kicked some serious ass. Over the next three years I got all A's, except for one high B, and earned an AS then a BBA. That helped me to get an 8-5 gig that paid well. It sucked that I was 13 years older than I should have been at that stage in my career, and it still kind of sucks. But I was motivated to do well because I had a reason that I was passionate about. That made all the difference. I wasn't going to school because my parents wanted me to. Or because it was expected of me. Or because my girlfriend/wife wanted me to. I was doing it because of ME. If school isn't for him right now, I don't think that you should force the issue. Of course, that's easy for me to say...we'll see what I saw when my now 9-year old boy is in college. If he's able to be successful at work, support and encourage him there. Maybe point out some of the ways that school would help him to be successful in things that he is passionate about, but don't be overbearing. Let him decide for himself when the time is right. __________________ UTEP Miners!!! I solemnly swear to never cheer for TO

05-01-2019, 11:46 PM	#140
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	College year is over for the kid. He has a job and will also be taking summer school (because of his transfer to new school and degree, he'll have to take summer school to graduate in 4 years). Going to visit some friends and then come back for a week before starting the summer sessions. Hard to think of him as a junior next year and no longer a teen. Re-reading this thread, it is still hard to think of us not being "that family" anymore but it has gotten better.

05-01-2019, 11:59 PM	#141
stevew Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: the yo'	Mine comes home next weds. She's on pace to finish a semester early.

05-02-2019, 07:30 AM	#143
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	My son is 26 years old. He has been trying to join the military since he graduated HS. He had tried every branch and was turned down because he was ADHD as a kid. About 2-3 years ago, he met a friend of his uncle's who is an Air Force recruiter. He talked to the recruiter about his situation and the recruiter told him that he thought he could get him in. So, finally, after 8 years, this kid will finally live his dream, follow in the footsteps of his parents, 2 uncles and grandfathers and serve in the United States Air Force. As if the 8 year wait wasn't long enough, his flight on Tuesday from Indy to Dallas got cancelled so he had to wait another day. Then yesterday, his flight got cancelled again but this time he took another flight to Charlotte then on to San Antonio. I got a text at 11:42 last night letting me know he was on the ground in San Antonio. Soon after he turned off his phone. This morning I wake up feeling very excited and anxious. As of this time I know he's up and going through the first day of basic training and I can't stop smiling. __________________ Why choose failure when success is an option? Last edited by spleen1015 : 05-02-2019 at 07:52 AM.

05-02-2019, 07:45 AM	#144
Edward64 Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2005	Nice. Good luck to him (and you with separation anxiety!)

05-02-2019, 09:03 AM	#145
Butter Coordinator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Dayton, OH	Update from me: The year of living away and by himself at college was unsuccessful from a school standpoint. I think he will have failed over half of the classes he attempted. He has changed his major at least 3 times. He will be coming home to get a job and go to community college starting this summer. I think he has grown a fair bit. But he is still a long way from being able to live on his own and do completely for himself. In talking with him fairly extensively over the past few weeks, I think he's in a good place for coming home. I am obviously not happy with the expense we incurred for the year for him to "find himself". I hope I am happy with the ultimate result, but we shall see. In the end, I am glad we gave him the chance as I think I would've regretted it. But ultimately our intuition was correct, he was not ready for a fully independent college experience. __________________ My listening habits Last edited by Butter : 05-02-2019 at 09:04 AM.

05-02-2019, 09:27 AM	#146
CU Tiger Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Backwoods, SC	Man this thread gets me every time I see it. Y'all can laugh at me, I'll take it. But in my "real" life...I dont know that Ive ever discussed feelings, how I feel, what I fear, what makes me happy etc more than 3 times in my adult life. Just not something Im comfortable doing. But my son graduates high school on June 7th. On June 8th he and I leave for a 7 day road trip (For any car guys the Hotrod Power Tour) in a classic we've restored together over the past 4 years...(that coincidentally we are bringing home as finished from our shop today)...We get home on the 15th and he reports to school on the 17th. The road trip is going to be fun. It was his idea. Instead of a senior trip he said 'Can we do this?"....so of course I said yes. But man...my vision is getting blurry just typing this. I aint ready for him to leave. He is a great kid. He will be fine. Ive parented him hard, I still do even at 18 and 6" and 70lbs bigger than me I still mold him everyday to try and re-enforce right and wrong. But on top of that. He's my best friend. Hell it aint much of a stretch at this point to say he may be my only friend. I'm excited for him and for the chance to watch him take the next step and to see him fulfill a dream...I'm excited for him and anxious for me. I know that's selfish of me..and Id never let him know I feel this way. But damn...Im not looking forward to him not being here.

05-02-2019, 09:36 AM	#147
spleen1015 Coordinator Join Date: Sep 2003	My daughter is not handling her brother leaving very well. He's 26. She's 16. He did move out 4 years ago when we pretty much made him, but he only lived 2 miles away. So, he has always been around for his sister. He's always gone to watch her play softball when games are local etc. He still came over 1-2 times a week and had dinner with us. She's a young, emotional teenager. She understands that he needs to go off do his thing & find his own way. But at the same time, she doesn't know life without him being around. I feel for all of the parents in this thread. I'm not going to do well when my daughter goes off to college in 2 years even though she's likely going to be 45 minutes up the road. __________________ Why choose failure when success is an option?

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